Jawnie

Are we not supposed to notice that this as a transparent and blatant lie just to get votes?

I wish all Thais, everywhere, would put on the same color shirt-black, white, whatever-and empty all homes, offices, and shops into the streets. They need to shut the entire country down, and take it back. There is no one that Thais can rely on. They deserve better.

Given that the government and Army's responses last year was to shoot people in the street and take no responsibility, the assertion for "proper regulation" rings pretty hollow. Shooting people is not a solution. Thailand still doesn't have have an elected government, and the Army is out of control and acting on its own. To say now that large crowds protesting such a situation is a threat in of need control is a ridiculous and backward assertion. It could only come from those who benefit somehow from the status quo.

For christ sake, when are the citizens and civilian government going to put an end to the Army acting on its own? Or, is Thailand now run and controlled by the military establishment as a matter of record? Anyone who thinks the current situation is the way a democracy is supposed to operate is completely and utterly wrong. This legislation only makes the situation worse by legalizing the types of criminal acts the Army engaged in last year, and in through Thailand's history.

I still don't see the parties: reds, yellows, government, and, yes, Army, sitting down to work out democratic institutions and mechanism for conflict resolution. Now, the only way they communicate is by media, mass street protest, idiotic censure "debates", Lese Majeste complaints, and threats. That's not government, not by a long shot. So, this legislation limits the Thai people, the people to whom the country belongs. That's what is backward: Thailand doesn't belong to the Army or the politicians.

The excessively large public assemblies that spin out of control because of lack of proper and adequate legislation are a serious problem. This can't be minimized by saying 'SOME of the reasons purported to be behind the public gatherings need to be addressed more'. All issues need to be addressed and neither takes greater precedence. But the lack of proper regulation for public gatherings is causing grave problems for the country, and rules are in place in most modern nations for crowd control that balances human rights also.

When groups refuse to take responsibility for their group actions, that's when laws must come into effect.

And that is what is lacking here, both protest group responsibilities and laws to control them when they show no responsibility.

The right to free association and the right to assemble are core rights. Thais must not allow these rights to be diminished in any way. The issues of the yellow and red shirts disrupting the city should not be dealt with by limiting citizens' methods, means, and rights to seek redress for grievances. But, rather, the issues being put forward at the public assemblies need to be addressed and resolved. The large public assemblies are not the problem, the problem is the underlying issues, which have not been addressed. Thais will be extremely sorry if they allow their rights to association and assembly to be curbed. It will make getting control of their country back from the military much more difficult than it already is.

The government, the streets, and the military belong to the Thai people - not the other way around. In the meantime, the yellow and red shirts need to begin to take some responsibility for how their public assemblies affect others and how they are seen by others. Can someone post the text of the legislation?

Pointing a finger at Thailand does not distract from the fact that a supposedly developed country that touts freedom and equality does not walk the walk.

Angmo: you've got it exactly wrong. It says the US government has charged a PRIVATE company with the abuses...it is not the US government which perpetrated the abuses. Global Horizons is a private company, operating illegally.

It is the very fact that the US is a developed country with the rule of law that is bringing this situation to an end. The US absolutely "walks the walk", much more so than most countries.

Good idea to copy and scan the dam_n thing. I definitely got punked. It was at the new office waaaay frigging north in Bkk.

I went to the Immigration office last week for a 30 day extension on my tourist visa. I had lost my Arrival/Departure card but went for it anyway. The Immigration office made me go file a police report and then return it to them before they accepted my application.

While it was a mental pain-in-the-butt to get the report, it was also quite easy. A motorcycle taxi took me from the front of the Immigration office to a nearby police station and waited for me. The process of getting the report at the police station took only about three minutes. The whole process took about 30 minutes. Immigration then issued me a new Arrival/Departure card. It made me a little crazy to do this but the officer showed me a good-sized stack of police reports for the same purpose.

Therefore, if you've lost your Arrival/Departure card, go get a police report beforehand and take it with you to the Immigration office. You'll get a new Arrival/Departure card at Immigration.

Only when it suits you.

Hahaha, Brucenkhamen, you are hilarious. The mandala practice is a skillful means for generating merit, just like life release, offerings, alms, book giveaways, and other merit making. It's not so complicated and is pretty widely taught in Mahayana circles. Someone who has reached nirvana would know all about it. The way I am proposing it, it's just to test what they know. It's not the end-all or be-all, a definition of enlightenment, and it's really mostly for well-informed beginners. Example, if someone showed up on a college campus somewhere and said they were as smart as Albert Einstein, well of course, the first thing you'd do is give them a basic problem to solve, one that anyone could solve if they are a mathematician. Not trying to give an exclusive or definite definition of anything. Can you live with that?

If you are going through Hong Kong, I second what Koknia says. USA prices may not equivalent. Check list and website at the link for Hong Kong prices and locations - same as Koknia's. I used the website extensively before I purchased.

I bought my Mark DII in Hong Kong for $17200 HKD = $2200US. It's at about $2675US on Amazon now.

http://www.ygdragon.net/index.php?page=photo/cameraprice.htm

Someone who has achieved Nirvana will be able to discuss philosophy and practice quite easily. The two areas pointed out, the 37 wings and the mandala visualization, are two such topical practice areas which someone who has achieved Nirvana should be able to teach/explain quite easily and extensively. It is not about simply memorizing lists, it's about the level of realization someone claims to have achieved and also being able to present it coherently. Questioning and debating on topics like this is a standard part of training for Tibetan monks.

Sounds like you equate nirvana (aka enlightenment) with having a phd in majoring in Buddhism, in addition to having a natural ability to teach.

Of course anyone who has never done mandala visualization is immediately disqualified because they wouldn't know how to explain it other than perhaps a bit of theory, so probably 95% of Buddhists are disqualified by that definition.

You might want to check out the scriptural definition, while there are some differences between mahayana and theravada points of view I doubt there are any that would support yours. This might be a good start http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana "The word literally means "blowing out" or "extinguish" — referring in the Buddhist context, to the blowing out of the fires of greed, hatred, and delusion". Nothing to do with mandala practise nor intellectual knowledge nor the ability to teach.

Please don't burn down Central World again. I like shopping there and hanging out .

So, what people are saying is that this is 'functioning' group, Dhammakaya, in Thailand that says their form of meditation leads to great spiritual attainment in a very short time? Do they come to Bangkok and teach or give public lectures, not that I am very interested. It seems to me that one could establish whether their claims are legitimate with just a couple of question on the finer points of Buddhist practice or philosophy, such as "what are the 37 Limbs of Enlightenment?" or ask them to explain the mandala visualization with its colors, symbols, offerings, etc. Anyone with the realization they claim would be able to answer such question immediately, completely, and without any error.

Once again you are quoting Mahayana concepts..... 37 limbs of enlightenment...... mandala....visualisation.........Dhammakaya and here are Theravada.

Doing so doesn't bother me nearly as much as it seems to bother you. It's still Dharma.

Someone who has achieved Nirvana will be able to discuss philosophy and practice quite easily. The two areas pointed out, the 37 wings and the mandala visualization, are two such topical practice areas which someone who has achieved Nirvana should be able to teach/explain quite easily and extensively. It is not about simply memorizing lists, it's about the level of realization someone claims to have achieved and also being able to present it coherently. Questioning and debating on topics like this is a standard part of training for Tibetan monks.

This is so sad.

If you choose sadness then that is just a reaction you've chosen.

There was no subtext so please don't put words into my mouth.

Then this would be an opportunity to explain what you meant. I've explained how logically my interpretation was arrived at, I'd be happy to be wrong, if that wan't what you meant then I'm sure you are capable of clarifying without without getting into emotive language.

I have not used the term Hinayana since it was dealt with previously. Do you think you can let go of that? I have.

This is so sad.

You used it once immediately after I pointed it out so I posted links for a more complete explanation, but yes after that you haven't used it as far as I've noticed, much appreciated.

I only refer to this because I wasn't aware of anything else that would make you feel you needed to label some Thai Buddhists as hostile and intolerant, this one thread just didn't seem enough.

So whether you feel the responses you've had are justified or not surely it would be more constructive to engage with the ideas presented rather than label people hostile and intolerant, or a situation as sad.

You are off-topic. This thread didn't start as a critique of my net etiquette. I said nothing inappropriate or wrong in my comments regarding the topic of this thread.

The hostility of some Thai Buddhists toward other forms of Buddhism is quite astounding. It's very similar to Christian intolerance of other religions or Christian groups. It's sad, really.

Your post said you thought the way to determine if someone was enlightened is that they could "explain the mandala visualization with its colors, symbols, offerings, etc". Considering mandala practice is only done in Tibetan Buddhism, and I suspect only some branches, the subtext was that only Tibetan Buddhists can become enlightened. Previously you labelled Theravadin Buddhists with a derogatory term and continued to do so after the error was pointed out.

If you don't want hostility don't invite it, present your ideas in an open minded way encouraging discussion.

I think Fred is incorrect this is not a Theravadin forum, of course as Thailand is a Theravadin country then mostly this is what is discussed here but I think most people will welcome your contributions about the branch of Buddhism that you practise if you can do so without emotively labelling people who think differently from you as hostile or intolerant.

This is so sad.

There was no subtext so please don't put words into my mouth.

It is quite obvious that you don't welcome the contribution, but don't try to speak for others. You are not privy to the private messages I get regarding my contributions.

I have not used the term Hinayana since it was dealt with previously. Do you think you can let go of that? I have.

This is so sad.

So, what people are saying is that this is 'functioning' group, Dhammakaya, in Thailand that says their form of meditation leads to great spiritual attainment in a very short time? Do they come to Bangkok and teach or give public lectures, not that I am very interested.

They are a very well known cult in Thailand.

It seems to me that one could establish whether their claims are legitimate with just a couple of question on the finer points of Buddhist practice or philosophy, such as "what are the 37 Limbs of Enlightenment?" or ask them to explain the mandala visualization with its colors, symbols, offerings, etc. Anyone with the realization they claim would be able to answer such question immediately, completely, and without any error.

That's a pretty odd definition of enlightenment, the ability to recite a list from memory and explain about mandala practise which is only used by a small number of Buddhists anyway.

The notion that one can get enlightened by teaching monks english for a couple of weeks is just so silly we need not grace it with a response. Next they'll be selling enlightenment on their web site.

The hostility of some Thai Buddhists toward other forms of Buddhism is quite astounding. It's very similar to Christian intolerance of other religions or Christian groups. It's sad, really.

So, what people are saying is that this is 'functioning' group, Dhammakaya, in Thailand that says their form of meditation leads to great spiritual attainment in a very short time? Do they come to Bangkok and teach or give public lectures, not that I am very interested. It seems to me that one could establish whether their claims are legitimate with just a couple of question on the finer points of Buddhist practice or philosophy, such as "what are the 37 Limbs of Enlightenment?" or ask them to explain the mandala visualization with its colors, symbols, offerings, etc. Anyone with the realization they claim would be able to answer such question immediately, completely, and without any error.

The City Line Airport Link has been running since Friday. So much for the incompetent Thais.

Some things that seems to operate better in Thailand than anywhere else are all the jerking knees.

I didn't read the full article. Even so, pardon me if I'm a little skeptical about some of the claims made in the short version.

So let me see if I understand this one: you can't marry a Thai woman and share a good life. But, you can go to downtown Bangkok and watch Thai women rub their crotches on a pole, on your leg, on everyone in the place, etc., then rent a Thai woman and use her sexually for an hour, a day, or a week? That's alright.

Okay, got it.

There is still the regular service to the airport which runs every 20 minutes. Beats the hell out of taking a taxi.

Uh.....only 300?

Thais also need to 'get over' the age issue for teachers, as in, "over 50 need not apply".

Hi Huli, this is a great question and I'm sure you'll get some helpful answers. For starters, though, it's gonna be Five Aggregates - form, feeling, perception, concept, and consciousness. Consciousness is considered a "construct" so it must be dealt with on its own terms and is ultimately left behind with regard to the goal of the Buddhist path: liberation.

Morning, Jawnie

Thanks for your reply last night. I have been trying to understand the 5 aggregates better thru books, the internet, and now this forum, I guess. I spent a lot of mental energy trying to understand consciousness, and I thought I had it down, but your reply makes me wonder. All the references say that consciousness boils down to the 6 kinds, one each, 5 senses plus the mental one. Visual consciousness, auditory consciousness, etc. What I now understand, tentatively, is that we human know that we see with our eyes, hear with our ears, and this is "consciousness". A whole level of awareness not possessed by other animals.

All of which makes me wonder about your last sentence. What am I missing? What is a construct? How is it left behind?

Again, I appreciate your input.

According to the Nyingmapa, the Five Aggregates are conditioned components of existence (constructs). That is, they have no independent existence but rather arise from a combination of preceding causes; consciousness is somewhat different playing an "over-seer" role regarding the activity of the others but it, too, arises dependent on conditions, so it is classified as one of the five.

Those preceding causes/conditions include ignorance of our true essence, the seed of the tathagata, which is the real nature of reality. From that ignorance arises the bewildered nature of living beings spawning all sorts of results, including the Five Aggregates (sometimes called "suddenly arisen phenomena" or "stains on unsurpassed reality"). Vipassana and Samatha meditative techniques are part of the sequence of the Buddhist path that regulate the causes and conditions in the formation of the Five Aggregates (aka "world forming deeds"), and reverse, transcend, stop, or otherwise, abandon them. It's not particularly helpful to try to analyze your meditative experience because it's part of your current way of being. Rather, I'd say just practice the meditation according to your teacher's instructions.

Hi Huli, this is a great question and I'm sure you'll get some helpful answers. For starters, though, it's gonna be Five Aggregates - form, feeling, perception, concept, and consciousness. Consciousness is considered a "construct" so it must be dealt with on its own terms and is ultimately left behind with regard to the goal of the Buddhist path: liberation.

On the towel question, it's probably because they really don't want you to see them, they don't really like you, and they don't really want to be in that situation at all. Who could ever get over that?

Have you ever had a relationship with a bar girl?

Have you ever lived with a bar girl and her family?

Have you ever met a bar girls parents?

Have you spent much time in brothels in Thailand?

I would submit that you don't have a clue about what you are writing in this area.

Naive is an understatement.

Yours is the typical, defensive, psuedo-intellectual response intended to devalue an opinion you don't agree with. To me, however, what you say above is meaningless since I don't believe a person must experience everything in the world before one can have an opinion about it. If this were true, then no one could comment on politics, religion, etc., until they've been a PM or a legislator, or a monk/nun, (or dated a bar girl). This is nonsense, of course. This is why humans have the capacity for empathy and understanding.

It still remains true that many "ladies of the night" don't like it and only do it for the money, or for drugs, or whatever. Hence, some are embarrassed by it.

Glad you came back Jawnie. People should know some things about people simply because they are people too. I would agree with that. But your experience and education does not serve you well in trying to understand bar girls.

It is like trying to learn to speak Thai without understanding tones. You can learn English paying almost no attentions to the tonal implications of words, not so Thai.

You mention politics and religion and yes everyone has an opinion but that is hardly knowledge. Looking at the behavior of monks or politicians from a distance without some in depth study will lead you to false conclusions.

You don't have the information to make any accurate conclusions about bar girls.

Thai Visa is a unique resource about things Thai. There are people here who understand the Thai system from years of study and experience living in Thailand for many years.

I would imagine there are over 1000 regular posters who have married bar girls and are living with them in Thailand and have for more than 10 years each. There are posters on Thai Visa who own brothels and who have lived in brothels and speak fluent Thai to bar girls on a regular basis and have for many years in all parts of the country.

I know three generations of bar girls. A 60 year old grandmother, her daughter 35 and her grand daughter 20 who are all still in the business and I am not alone in this knowledge.

People who come to Thailand and a year later are voicing opinions and giving advice about things Thai are usually not very well informed. Interesting to read as we all go through stages of learning.

You are out of your depth here. Best you listen and learn. Or go out and see for yourself without your Western baggage on your back. A lady writing a story many years ago about Playboy bunnies went out and got a job at a Playboy club to understand the system and inner workings of Bunny life. She wrote a decent story. Journalists writing about war get assigned to a combat unit.

If you want to know anything about bar girls or bar life feel free to ask. But you don't have the qualifications to be telling anybody anything about it yet.

From your perspective, then, I will never have enough information and experience to understand bar girls.

From my perspective, I already have all the information I need.

Life is life, regardless of who is living it.

I am interested in where Gravion's writing style comes from.

Ali G.

The guy's a troll.

But he's quite good.

Could there be anybody on this board that isn't a troll? snort. cough.