Thomas_Merton

To Spellbound (my comments are in italics):

Jesus Christ, man what are you drinking?

Well nothing really as it’s the Sabbath, which I am breaking to reply to you (Shabbat Shalom).

You are the one that’s has lost reality, so your trying to belittle our westernised culture, and even worse you call our Thai colleges a liar.

If I belittle, it is only those actions of westerners, I find puerile. I did not call your Thai colleges a liar.

Are you in total denial about the issue here, it is a common fact that this is a Thai remedy to stop adulterers.

Of course I am aware of this issue. I understand it is also practised in the USA. Can that be true?

WITH-OUT respect to you, I refer to the link you posted about Thaifamily and the lack of understanding ABOUT Thai culture,demands for money

I have every sympathy for whatever legal means a poor Thai family uses to obtain money. I have quite a bit of sympathy for some of the illegal means too.

and the adultury ingrained in Thai culture.

25% are the figures I have seen. I wonder, how does this compare to the USA, UK, Scandinavia, Germany and Australasia?

Statement from page 2 “”"Hey little sister, Thai shall help Thai, help us to take profit of the money of this foreigner" can be heard.””

Don’t quite understand this – possible lack of IQ on my side – please explain.

I ask you now to explain, can you please try to understand in your Bible Bashing Brain

I didn’t Bash the Bible. I recommended reading Thomas Merton, a renowned American Academic and writer who bridged the gap between Christianity and Buddhism. He died, by the way, in an accident in Bangkok.

that SOMETIMES, JUST SOMETIMES there can always be a doubt about the motives in a cross culture society.

There are always doubts about the motivation of all societies. The only thing of interest is your own motivation. Does it point to the wrong side or the right side? Which is which, is life’s dilemma.

Before you reply, please can I ASK YOU, how does your beloved Demark treat’s and thinks of its immigrants.

Now I am really impressed. You must be one of the privileged few who have access to my ip. address. Do you have no awareness of how much abuse of this privilege devalues any argument you may have here?

I do agree about this site and your statement about the usefulness of information about the Thai Visa issues,

Thank you

but yet again you seem not to perceive the virtual aspect that has been pointed out more than once about the Thai perspective of distrust and corruption even within the Government bodies of this wonderful land.

Oh, I perceive many more things incorrect in many organisations, governments, individuals and myself, than you could possibly imagine.

MAYBE JUST MAYBE you can pray this will change overnight, but I won’t hold my breath.

I grew out of believing anything could change over night when I started wearing long trousers. However I do believe that all things change, nothing is permanent (Siddhartha).

You also state about lies that infuse this site, again I ask you, are you the Supposed Spirit In The Sky (With Diamonds)(sorry to add that, but I did find the Good Doctor’s pun very amusing), do you know this is fact or just making an assumption?

Too much of an obscure LSD reference here for me. Must be my lack of IQ again. But I do believe a prime function of having an education is to use what abilities one has acquired to point out when others promote bullsh*t.

….PERHAPS just PERHAPS all the reports are false (well in your rose coloured glasses anyway)

Never said any reports were false, I only criticised a lack of respect as displayed in “concerned falangs” postings.

I would love to continue this, but I have other things that demand my time, but before I go I would like to state this, I am now a complete atheist. Yes many people like yourself need a faith to believe in, whether it be God, Budda, Ala or many of the other supposed creators of this planet. I respect this as once I was a believer also. However after the hurt I encountered and I tell you now NO_ONE but NO-ONE adhered to a faith more than me.

Tell me, do you sit on the right or the left of Mother Teresa, Thomas Merton and Siddhartha? Or do you really arrogantly believe you could even walk in the same town as these people, or anyone else who gives their life to their faith, without holding your eyes to the ground in shame (if only because you wrote the sentence above)?

Although alas no help!!!.

In the midst of you Bible Bashing postings in threads, Homoerocism / Jakson-Glitter/ etc the only other thought process I had was why you think your Christian/Catholic beliefs

I’m a Jew.

are so self-righteous, Religion has cause more problems in this world and anything else.

All of the major religions point to the Truth. It is only misguided human interpreters of these religions who cause problems. Your relationship between you and your G*d figure is only between you and Him/Her. After all, we all die alone with only that relationship intact, or not as the case may be.

I await your reply with eagerness.

PS, can you explain why are there so many Homosexuals in the (perfect catholic church) and why have you bought your Bible Bashing ways here on a Friday, I thought Sunday was the day.

Too many incorrect assumptions here to comment, have a nice day, Shabbat Shalom.

Well I really dummied out here

It was my intention to vote for "Warn the Poster in the forum and tell everyone why?" however I made the mistake of clicking on the "see results" button, despite the fact it is clearly written "Null Vote".

I think a public warning ought to be sufficient to deter most unwanted posting and also enable others to form an opinion themselves about the poster (and, of course, the administrator).

Continued unwanted posting by offenders should result in immediate suspension of a longer character than a week – perhaps a month. Any repeats after this should result in a life ban. As should:

• Insults to the Thai Royal Family

• Outright disrespect for the religious beliefs of the Thai people.

If you don’t live in Bangkok, make sure you can stay at least a couple of days and can arrange internet communication with home (try Malaysia Hotel – not too expensive – has Internet).

You fiancée will need to fill out this form http://www.fco.gov.uk/Files/kfile/VAF1_2003_Eng,0.pdf

It is advisable to discuss with an embassy official the other required documentation. You will most likely have to prove you can support her during her stay in the UK. This in most cases will include you producing bank statements, proof of employment and wage slips.

I know what I am talking about as I have just obtained a visa for my wife. However there can always be circumstances that make every case unique, therefore:

• Arrange for a couple of days in Bangkok

• Visit the British Embassy (consular section) and discuss your case with an official.

All praise to JemJem.

How sad to see how little these fools have learnt of Thai tolerance and respect.

I would like to thank all those who have contributed to this thread so far and would like to make the following comments.

There have been those like “######”, “KevinN” and “Dr. Pat Pong”, who, despite fully acknowledging the absurdity and irony implied in my question, have proposed some serious answers:

• “He's on a non Immigrant visa, properly established etc?”

• “He could have been hurt in an industrial accident and on disability, maybe a large insurance payoff, maybe grandpa left him a very nice trust”

• “The farang could be over 50 and on one year extensions on an O class retirement visa”

My point here is, whatever his reasons for being in Thailand for 2½ years living with his girlfriend, he could and should, be able to show more respect to his Thai girlfriend, his Thai family and the predominant Thai culture, than was displayed in his letters. Unless he was ( as “Mia15” naively suggests is only propaganda) some form of criminal. If his only crime, and the crimes committed by other long-term falangs, were those he displayed against the Thai culture in his letters (his attitude to his girlfriend, his way of talking about his Thai family) then the sooner there are less hungry ducks in Thailand the better.

As a side remark to “KevinN”: if his note about “financial advisors” could be extended to all government advisors in any government in the world, then I would respectfully comment that much of these advisors display a serious lack of several vital organs (Winston Churchill once said, “Democracy is a lousy form of government, unfortunately it is the best we have”).

Many writers to this thread and the “My TGF has joked about CUTTING ME” thread have displayed startling naivety and profound ignorance concerning Thai culture particularly with respect to the family.

To these, and all others who read this thread, I would like to say this: knowledge and wisdom concerning interpersonal relationships between falang and Thai nationals will very rarely be found in this forum. On the subject of visas, there is no better site. But never use the gossip of this site to make serious judgments in the field of human relationships. Unfortunately prejudice and lies pervades the site on this matter.

Try Http://www.thaiworldview.com/family.htm for some truer information.

My name-sake, a profound Catholic and wonderful writer, searched all his life for the Truth. Despite being a member of one of the strictest orders in the Church, he knew that the Truth was to be found in many places. Not the least of these places was the Buddhist faith. I highly recommend reading Thomas Merton as a means of understanding western (Christian) and Thai culture.

Because my main point is, that only by deeply understanding ones own culture and making real efforts to understand the Thai culture can pests like “concerned falang” and his followers be exposed as the pathetic idiots they are.

The bogus thread ("My TGF has joked about CUTTING ME") has prompted a lot of discussion in our family on matters related to some of the points made in this merriment.

One of the most interesting, to us, was answering the question my wife asked, "How does a farang stay over 2½ years in Thailand (with the same girlfriend and not be married)?

These are the answers we came up with:

" He's an old age pensioner

" He's a spoilt brat who gets money from his parents

" He's a thief who has moved to Thailand with his proceeds

" He's a pimp

" He's a gigolo

" He works in the drug trade

Have we missed anything out?

Whether the train flys, sails or rumbles to Thailand, I suppose is of some interest.

However I am more curious about the subway's route. Does anyone have a map (or a link to a map) to illustrate this route?

TIA

Thomas it is FARANG not FALANG      

This typo is a result of a standing joke between me and my wife, concerning her pronunciation. We've had quite a few interesting experiences as a result of her inability to get her tongue around the English "r". The most recent was when our neighbours refused to eat my wife's "sticky lice", convinced that it was indeed what it sounded like.

This charming Thai difficulty is even more pronounced when she speaks Danish. Danish has an "r" sound that is half-way between an English "r" and a French "r", which creates difficulties even for an Englishman who has worked in Denmark for 20 years!

I wonder, does anyone have any experiences, tips or exercises, to improve this pronunciation (only for English - I accept that Danish is perhaps too esoteric, for even this forum)?

I was trying to list all the ways I thought my Thai girlfriend is better (for me) than the women I typically run into back in the USA, when he pointed out some troublesome statistics published by the US Department of Immigration (INS).

Hi Bill,

I think there are elements, in all of these replies, to help you with respect to your request. Permit me to draw out those points I consider relevant.

The statistics I sent, were meant to show there is (however inaccurate these stats. may be) a real cultural difference between the majority of falang countries and Thailand, on the matter of divorce – particularly, the acceptance of divorce – which must be reflected in the percentage of divorces per hundred marriages. An anecdotal example of how things have changed in the last 40 years in Europe: when I was in school in the 50s, we had one boy, out of 650 who came from divorced parents – his father was South American, so we explained this as a result of S.A. temperament! Now, my youngest son goes in a kindergarten in Denmark with 29 other children, 15 of whom, come from divorced families – 50%!!!

Tripxcore writes: “Simply put, as a farang, you must be very patient and open to new ideas as life in Thailand differ's to life in the USA very much.  The keyword here is COMPROMISE.”

This is fundamental advice to any (falang to falang, or whatever) would-be married couple. However it presupposes that the couple have equally developed and sophisticated negotiating skills. They must also have (as has been discussed elsewhere in these fora) a common definition for the word compromise. I would respectively suggest, in addition, that the falang gallantly prepares himself to loose many arguments on the home front for the sake of family peace. :cool:

First though, the falang and Thai ought to try to understand, before marriage, each other’s point of view on certain fundamental areas e.g. life and death; the having, and bringing-up, of children; the importance (or not) of money; the acquisition of material things; your future aims and goals; attitudes to his and her families etc. etc. (I sure many others can contribute to this list).

One aspect of Thai culture that relates to the ability to “compromise”, is the concept of “loosing face”. All falang should make a concerted effort to grasp this phenomenon. Unless one can appreciate how important this is in Thai culture, all relationships with any Thai, will eventually have serious problems.

Tripxcore also writes: “the fact that many Filipino's are Catholic, which is widely practiced in the USA, helps with couples' moral compatability.”

The fact that Catholicism forbids divorce must have some bearing on the matter.

Lord HawHaw (an interesting name. My mother, who lived through WWII in England, would probably kill you) writes: “perhaps each of us has to make his own mistakes”

Quit right, but I believe we, who have had a little more experience, have a responsibility to warn that marriage is not just legalized sexual activity, but is a very serious affair, requiring just as much preparation and “engagement” as it has always done, if one is to avoid disaster.

One last point. Forget about the statistics; the anecdotal advice; the often cynical remarks from friends and colleagues; all 3rd party interference. If you and your future partner can end up laughing despite not agreeing – however important the issue – then you are off to a better start than many relationships, whatever the cultures.

Good Luck.

Anyway, I'm a bit puzzled by why the Thai-Farang marriage success rate is this low (outside of Thailand).  Anyone have any thoughts?

Perhaps these statistics could have something to do with your observations I hope the table displays OK. The original can be found at www.divorcereform.org/gul.html:

World divorce rates. Researched and compiled 2002 by Gulnar Nugman of the Heritage Foundation. Used by permission.

Divorce rate (per 1.000 people)/(per 100 marriages)

Australia 2.6 (00)

Austria 2.4 (00)/   43.4 (00)

Belgium 2.6 (00)/ 44 (99)

Canada 2.28 (98) /            37 (98)

Denmark 2.7 (00)/ 44.5 (00)

Finland 2.7 (00)/ 51.2 (00)

France 2 (99)/     38.3 (98)

Germany 2.3 (99)/ 39.4 (99)

Netherlands 2.1 (00)/ 38.3 (00)

New Zealand 2.65 (98)

Norway 2.2 (00)/ 40.4 (99)

Sweden 2.4 (00)/ 54.9 (00)

Switzerland 2.8 (00) 25.5 (00)

Thailand 0.9 (95)

United Kingdom 2.6 (00) 42.6 (98)

United States 4.1 (00) 8/     54.8 (85)

Source: www.divorcereform.org.

7 Source: "The World's Women, Trends and Statistics," UN, 2000.

8 Source: Monthly Vital Statistics Report, Vol. 49, No. 6, National Center for Health Statistics.

"UN Demographic Yearbook, 1999", United Nations Publication, 2001.

Source: "Recent demographic developments in Europe, 2001," Council of Europe Publishing, 2001.

Source: "Statistics in focus", "Population and Social Conditions".

10 Jean-Paul Sardon, "Recent Demographic Trends in the Developed Countries," Population - English Edition, Vol. 57, Jan-Feb' 2002.

Well which ever way you want to veiw it don't you think everyone has the right to have an opion.

Hi Sev (I apologize for getting your name wrong before),

If what you say is right (and I don't doubt your sincerity), can you, or anyone else, give me any reasons why anybody would want to marry, as compared to just living together?

(We have all the time been making the assumption we are talking about heterosexuals. Some comments from homosexuals would be very welcome. Homosexual marriage is permitted in the country where I live - Denmark).

But I think it is because of the peace of mind you will feel if that some people want a prenup, God forbid, something is to go horribly wrong in the future.

I think my aversion to "prenups", is based primarily upon their presumption of divorce, but also upon their reduction of the spiritually wonderful, giving event of marriage, to considerations controlled by cold, calculated materialism.

However, for the sake of argument, I will accept the insecurities of many, and therefore will propose the following prenuptial agreement:

1. Divorce is forbidden - any divorce papers signed by either of the two parties are to be considered illegal.

2. All assets are to be equally shared, despite whose name is on the original contract.

Would such an agreement not create security until “death us do part”?

If these two paragraphs are unacceptable to the “engaged couple” then I say, don’t get married. Live together, travel the world together, do everything together, but don’t get married. At least not until you have grown up and are willing to accept the terrible (and indescribably rewarding) responsibilities of marriage.

Get a prenub signed and sleep at night.

...just as the knights of old slept, believing in the chastity belt?

No, Sep, I don't buy it. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I can't appreciate this modern obsession with insurance. It takes all the hard work, risk and fun out of life.

For me, one contract is enough - the marriage contract - "in sickness and in health, for richer or poorer, in this life and the next etc..".

And my advice stands – if in doubt, what’s the point of getting married?

... take off the rose tinted glasses put on your Ray-Ban one's and get a prenup signed on everything you invest in...if you get an objection then maybe change the lady  not the glasses...

On the subject:

If you do not trust your future wife, or think shortly after the marriage, or even a long time in the future, you will not be able to trust her, why get married in the first place?

To misquote the Bible: a marriage built on mistrust, is a marriage built on sand.

'an honest Thai woman has only one aim in getting married. That is to secure a future for herself AND her family (her mother and father etc.).'

Forgive me, I did not address, in my previous answer to you, what was one of your main points.

You took exception, quite rightly, to my use of the phrase “an honest Thai woman”.

However, I did not mean, as you obviously interpreted it, “a respectable Thai woman”. But rather:  “a Thai woman who is truthful to herself and her (future) husband”.

It would be interesting to hear if this interpretation has any influence on you comments.

All my Thai friends are of the same sort of opinion and background on this matter.  It may be different for other people from other background or social classes or whatever.

You are obviously a very well educated and sophisticated Thai woman – if only to judge by your mastery of the English language. Of course with all generalities, there are exceptions. But I think that your exception reveals one of the many difficulties presenting itself to a country wrestling with its proud traditions and the influences of many aspects of western culture.

It is difficult to admit that you and your friends are yet just a very small percentage of Thai women (and are, unfortunately an immeasurably small part of the Thai women who come into contact with the average falang visitor to your beautiful country). Bangkok, and all the major tourist resorts, are full of (without exaggeration) literally thousands of not-so-wealthy Thai women, working in all sorts jobs (some more exotic than others), who have the dream I mentioned in my original mail. These women, often coming from very poor families in the countryside, are supporting themselves and their families - families whose only means of occupation is seasonal agricultural work for daily wages that would not even buy two coffees in a sophisticated Bangkok coffee shop.

The world as experienced by the rich and the poor, wherever you live, is always very different, with vastly different goals, aims and aspirations. Just the simple fact of having no money can concentrate the mind somewhat! It is a not a secret that the vast differences between the lifestyles of the wealthy and the poor, have resulted in many of the more controversial aspects of the Thai society.

The challenge to the elite in Thailand is this:- how best to channel resources and job opportunities out to the countryside so these women can realize their dreams without having to leave their homes and families and marry a falang.

THOMAS .....10 days over is TWO THOUSAND BAHT not 3500

1. My memory for figures is appalling

2. My wife has reminded me that yet again, you are correct.

I do agree with those but do not agree that overstay, even if inadvertent, would always be a minor thing and would not want to leave that impression on anyone asking for help here.  If the worst happens they might get real mad.   

You are of course correct. Any breaking of the law is serious, and a falang who breaks the immigration laws is in a very serious and vulnerable position.

So there is an alternative :-)

If you had been checked by police for any reason before getting to the airport you could have spent some time in jail and have been deported.  Would not recommend overstay as an alternative.

Hence the smiley:-)

I just used this example to illustrate that if you do simply forget or innocently miscalculate, your world will not collapse into dentention and deportation.

You do agree with my remarks about how to behave with Thai officials?

I do not have experience of prenuptial agreements; however I do have experience of a happily married life with a Thai woman. Therefore I feel obliged to offer this advice to you or any other falang contemplating marriage to a Thai.

This is an absolute truth (there are numerous accounts on the web, and other places, that will confirm this point): despite your undoubted feelings of romantic love for your future wife, and despite her possible protestations that these feelings are reciprocated, an honest Thai woman has only one aim in getting married. That is to secure a future for herself AND her family (her mother and father etc.). If you are not prepared to economically help and support her family, your marriage will probably never take place, or at the most, last only a short time.

I challenge anybody to come with examples that refute the ab

I was 10 days over with my visa, last time I was in Thailand - for no other reason than shear forgetfulness!

The immigration officer at my departure, of course, noticed this. I was allowed to fly home after paying my fine - about 3,500 baht. So there is an alternative :-)

BTW this immigration officer was quite helpful. He accompanied me into the departure lounge so I could use my Visa to pay the fine.

The secret, if you don't know by now, with all Thai officials, is:

1. Always smile

2. Be very, very polite

3. Talk quietly - NEVER, EVER raise our voice.

4. Accept what the official says as being correct.

5. If you have a problem with complying, explain, quietly, this problem to the official, asking him/her if they could suggest a solution to this problem (this way, the official could suggest a compromise without loosing face).

There is a place - I'm afraid I don't have the name or  address - but it is 25 meters from the major intersection closest to the British Embassy in Bangkok (on the opposite side of the road) – that offers official translations. The beauty of this place, run by a female lawyer, is that they offer a complete service, including marriage, for (3 years ago) 6,000 baht.

We couldn’t believe this either, but took a chance, as my visa had nearly expired. Low and behold, in for 3 hours, we were officially married and in possession of all the legal documents translated into English. They even paid our taxi fares to the local authority where we were married.

The true proof that everything was above board came when my wife received her visa, 2 weeks later, issued on the strength of these documents.

I am a 55 year old Englishman, living in Denmark with my Thai wife and our young son.

Despite having formal academic qualification as Doctor of Arts, it has been difficult to obtain positions where this qualification would receive its due reward here in Scandinavia, primarily because my subject (Modern History) has relatively little popular interest. Therefore I have become a computer specialist, currently working as Webmaster for the Danish Society of Engineers (www.ida.dk). Before this job I worked teaching English in Denmark, mostly at Cambridge Proficiency and Certificate level – although I did have some beginner classes as well as a delightful class of retired persons.

My question is this: - would I be able to seek positions as a teacher of English to Thai pupils, in the event of us returning to Thailand? What difficulties could I expect?

Answers especially from someone of my age or qualifications, would be more than appreciated.