OldGringo

Welcome to the CM Forum.

Your debut post raises an interesting question, but one that may be difficult to answer. What's legal, and what's illegal, and who has jurisdiction is often ill-defined here.

My guess is that cockfighting is not illegal in Chiang Mai. Certainly it has been going on here since time out of mind.

But recently not as highly visible as it was before. There was a time when many young Thais in all the neighborhoods raised fighting cocks. You don't see that as much anymore.

The sign you saw was unusual, almost an anomaly, because most Thais nowadays take no interest in it whatsoever.

I presume that you are against cockfighting. If so, you will have much support on the forum, where many TV members react strongly to reports of cruelty to animals.

Laudable as their concern is, aggressive efforts on the part of foreigners to put a stop to these practices inevitably become counterproductive. Thais, generally speaking, resent the involvement of farangs in things they consider to be none of their business.

In Thailand there are three ways of doing things; a right way, a wrong way, and a Thai way. Always choose the Thai way. Which in this case would be to try to find like-minded Thais or an organization run by Thais. Then give them your help and support. But keep a low-profile, otherwise you will create problems.

Can't someone put an end to this?

The OP should be made to walk in penance barefoot up Doi Sutep for his foolish complaint and subsequently starting such a humourless, mindless, and at times nasty thread.

If I did that I would be admitting to visiting the sins of the sons onto the Father - lucky you are not my judge but certainly a JW apologist

Your sin of prolonging this blasphemous thread leaves me no other choice but to pass judgement on you in the name of all that is Holy.

In addition to the penance already imposed upon you of walking up Doi Sutep barefoot, you are hereby ordered, upon arrival at the top, to look closely at the scene spread out below you.

If you were here over thirty years ago you will remember what it looked like then. A sea of green, a real garden city. The prominent features being the orange tile roofs of the temples and the chedis of all sizes with their gilt finials. No highrises, with the exception of Poy Luang Hotel, and that was way out on the Super, a two lane highway then, so it didn't spoil the view. All in all a really beautiful sight.

Nowadays you could just as well be looking at some concrete jungle in California. It has changed out of recognition from what it was.

What brought this about? A destruction as total as what the Allies did to Dresden.

Get down on your knees now. It's time for some serious reflection.

Could it be punishment because Thais embraced Mammon and western ways? And who inflicted that punishment? Was it...

No, I won't take this any farther on the open forum.

After you have performed your penance and had a chance to think all this over, some friends of mine will be knocking on your door to invite you to partake of a Feast of Pure Reason.

Can't someone put an end to this?

The OP should be made to walk in penance barefoot up Doi Sutep for his foolish complaint and subsequently starting such a humourless, mindless, and at times nasty thread.

Why not pin the topic and let this Ship of Fools sail on into eternity?

What started as a complaint about Jehovah's Witnesses and their activities in Chiang Mai turned into a face-off between religious fundamentalists and devout atheists .

Made ridiculous by the level of discourse, and sounding like a convention of shopkeepers or used car salesmen suddenly in contention over some issue way over their heads.

All it takes is mention of something beyond their ken to raise a parrot-cry repeated on all sides by these half-educated savants with their fractured syntax and misspelled words.

There are worse people in the world than Jehovah's Witnesses.

As zany as they are they take their place with the rest of us. Times have changed since Thais just saw certain types of farang. Now it's the complete spectrum of humanity. The whole banquet, everything from fruit to nuts.

They have made a lot of converts in the USA among blacks and poor whites, many of whom are receptive to their silly fables.

They are persistent because they have learned the age-old lesson that persistence pays.

My experience has been that if you tell them politely but firmly that you are not interested they will leave you alone. It's not necessary to appear naked at your door or invoke the ghost of Christopher Hitchens to scare them away.

This is a pretty good summing-up and should have put an end to the thread.

Secular Humanism is the religion of the age and woe to those who oppose it. A firestorm of criticism comes down on the head of anyone who dares question it's tenets.

Didn't most of us come to Thailand to live among these [generally] tolerant Thai people?

We don't need displaced fanatics, religious nuts, and militant atheists to remind us of what we left behind.

gringo

re ... If the state agency neglect of the pubs and bars, Chang Moi Rd. will be likes Loy Kroh Rd."

they were put up in october : ( ... unless there are some new ones ?

dave2

I wanted to know what did the sign mean. Not when it was put up. I've been oblivious to even the most obvious signs for the better part of a long life.

What concerns me about this one is that it may signal the rise of some kind of unofficial pussy-posse that will harass and eventually kill the nightlife in Chiang Mai.

It's hard to kill what's already dead.

But seriously, this is a country where government workers come by the bars at least once a week handing out boxes full of condoms (49, 52, 54 and now 56mm (!) too.), and bags full of strawberry scented personal lubricant, absolutely free to Thais and foreigners alike.

Government sponsored consumables.. It's all good.

...and on whose behalf? To pose the question is to answer it.

There are so many undercurrents here that it's almost impossible to know what's really going on.

Have your fun while you can Winnie, before the peasants with pitchforks and torches come marching up the hill.

gringo

re ... If the state agency neglect of the pubs and bars, Chang Moi Rd. will be likes Loy Kroh Rd."

they were put up in october : ( ... unless there are some new ones ?

dave2

I wanted to know what did the sign mean. Not when it was put up. I've been oblivious to even the most obvious signs for the better part of a long life.

What concerns me about this one is that it may signal the rise of some kind of unofficial pussy-posse that will harass and eventually kill the nightlife in Chiang Mai.

Merry Christmas to you too Homeboy.

It's always easy to mistake your free-associative rambling with intellect, but in this case you may be right.

Where Chang Moi Kao Rd. meets Chang Moi there is a rather large banner-like sign that reads "If the state agency neglect of the pubs and bars, Chang Moi Rd. will be likes Loy Kroh Rd."

What on earth does that mean?

gauleiter mentality

A rare treat to learn an unfamiliar term these days. Nicely used too...

Yes, and so much nicer than to banter a bit about a Farang Santa Claus being stopped by police and asked for identification.

Really excellent.

Thanks, I love you guys.

But Homeboy oughta be drawn and quartered for bringing up a dangerous subject like that.

Like so many people with over-inflated egos you get carried away with your own rhetoric. You have rambled way off topic. Let me get you back on.

Since you seem to reject my claim to being first on the scene, I'll give you some alternative possibilities.

European mercenarys, mostly Portugese, serving with the armies of Pegu, Ava, and Ayudhya in the early 16th cent. were most probably the first, but no credible records survive.

Mendez Pinto's 1548 account of the Ayudhya campaign against Chiang Mai

Mendez Pinto's 1548 account of the Ayudhya campaign against Chiang Mai is thought to be taken from soldiers who took part in it and not his own experience.

Ralph Fitch coming from Pegu around 1585 mentions being in Chiang Mai and that is generally accepted as the first documented visit. Followed in 1613 by Thomas Samuel coming up from Ayudhya on a trade mission.

That's a summary of what I know about the subject. I'm always interested in learning more and would like to hear other people's views.

Who was the first farang in Chiang Mai?

I think it was me.

In October 1977 I came up from Bangkok to play a small part in a Thai movie that was being shot on location here.

Getting 1000 baht a day with a tee-rahk and a poo choo-ay tee-rahk. It was the time of my life.

Chiang Mai was the best place I had ever seen by a factor of ten.

News of the discovery spread quickly and I was soon followed by hordes of other farangs.

R.I.P. Chiang Mai

You have no place in a serious discussion.

I don't need your good ol' boy wisdom and your lame attempts at humour fall flat. Don't tell me again how long you've been here. I've been here almost as long, and you remember little or nothing about Chiang Mai in the 70's that I don't. So save that rap for the greenhorns.

Probably the biggest difference between you and I is that my young family has, to a large extent, kept me from living totally in the past and turning into a horny old goat like you. OK, TIT, do your own thing. I'm all for that. But what do Thais think when they see an old farang with a girl less than half his age? Screw 'em. Sure, you can say that, but we have to live among them and their opinions of us do matter. We're not like the birds of passage who live in their own little expat world and can bag out fast if things get rough.

Too bad they don't sell Mehkong anymore. If they did, I'd hoist a glass to you. Bogart and Bergman always had Paris. If you were more congenial I'd say "We'll always have Chiang Mai".

R.I.P. Gringo

Like so many people with over-inflated egos you get carried away with your own rhetoric. You have rambled way off topic. Let me get you back on.

Since you seem to reject my claim to being first on the scene, I'll give you some alternative possibilities.

European mercenarys, mostly Portugese, serving with the armies of Pegu, Ava, and Ayudhya in the early 16th cent. were most probably the first, but no credible records survive.

Mendez Pinto's 1548 account of the Ayudhya campaign against Chiang Mai

Who was the first farang in Chiang Mai?

I think it was me.

In October 1977 I came up from Bangkok to play a small part in a Thai movie that was being shot on location here.

Getting 1000 baht a day with a tee-rahk and a poo choo-ay tee-rahk. It was the time of my life.

Chiang Mai was the best place I had ever seen by a factor of ten.

News of the discovery spread quickly and I was soon followed by hordes of other farangs.

R.I.P. Chiang Mai

Always ready to help; with an almost childlike eagerness to put in his two baht's worth of knowlege about anything and everything to do with Chiang Mai.

But is he for real? Does anybody have any proof of that? Has he ever been seen?

The absence of hard evidence would imply that he is the creation of someone's imagination.

If his posts are anything to go by he would seem to be omnipresent in and around Chiang Mai. You couldn't miss him if you tried. Which also leads me to believe that he may be a figment of someone's disordered fancy.

The sheer number of his posts, 6390+ to date, bear witness to a diarrhoea of words and a constipation of ideas on a grand scale. The amount of time he must spend online would seem to be more typical of software than a real human being.

Then there is the curious choice of name. Khwai. Surely he knows the connotations Thais attach to this word when applied to people. Or is it an example of self-deprecating humour plumbing new depths? Ego annihilation as a means to enlightenment perhaps.

A self-styled "Asia Old Hand" [does he mean "Old Asiahand"], he pontificates on local matters like a sage. It's good to know that someone is still filling that role. When I got here in the 70's the oldtimers were dying off fast. The lifestyle was hard on them. Mehkong, Marlboros,and weed took a toll on their health. Not to mention bullhead clapp and other STD's. By the time AIDS came along in the early 80's there weren't many of them left to catch it.

So carry on dispensing wisdom.

The torch is passed to you WinnieThe Khwai

Whether or not you exist in reality is almost beside the point.

You are the life of the forum.

The general consensus seems to be that you won't be asked to show your passport or be otherwise harassed unless you are travelling in areas notorious for drug trafficing, illegal immigration, etc. Or in towns, engaged in obnoxious activities such as singing in bars or otherwise disturbing the peace.

The question of whether or not there is a law saying you need to carry your passport at all times has not been answered.

Since the late 90's, announcements coming from Immigration imply that there is. It would be nice to know one way or the other. Although in reality it's a moot point because you are at the mercy of whoever has stopped you, and you will be dealt with according to the way they choose to interpret whatever law or laws may or may not exist.

This gauleiter mentality never seems to die. It just changes uniforms from time to time.

There is no such law or requirement.

The law says everyone must carry ID. If you are not Thai, almost anything with your photo is generally acceptable.Even a photocopy of your passport.

There was at one time and not so long ago. Maybe it's been changed. I hope you're right.

Thanks for the reply.

Regarding the nuisance law requiring foreigners to carry their passports at all times; does anybody have any recent experience?

I carry a color photocopy of my photo page and visa and entry stamp pages, hoping that will appease them if I'm stopped.

What I mean is local travel in and near the city. On longer trips I always take my passport and don't find it an inconvenience.

Are there fines involved? If so, how much?

Thanks for any word on this.

Yet another run-in with ignorant arrogant farangs.

I feel your pain. Why didn't you make a scene?

Let 'em know they're not in the backwoods of Tennesee anymore.

You're OK Homeboy. All you lack is cojones.

The foreigners here tend to be a diverse lot. Many of them have had experience of other parts of the world before coming to roost in Chiang Mai. Much can be learned from them even though they may not fully understand certain things about where they are now.

People who speak the language fluently and have lived among Thais long enough to see their children become teenagers and young adults are the ones you can learn the most from. But don't forget This Is Thailand, and things are not always what they seem.

As I often tell newcomers, listen to farangs who have been here awhile. If you don't you will get lessons from Thais that you won't forget anytime soon.

I just hope the said women don't start dual pricing, or they'll be the subject of petitions.

Wake up. It's been going on for ages. It probably started with the first punter to arrive here.

After being told how handsome he was, he would have willingly parted with those extra ticals.

Follow these three rules and you should have an easy go of it. If you don't, it's going to be a tahng lahm-bahk.

Rule #1

Try to maintain good relations with the owners. Be friendly. Smile a lot. Thailand was known as the Land of Smiles 20 -30 years ago. Do your bit to bring back that wonderful tradition.

Rule #2

If serious problems arise, cut your losses and leave. Chiang Mai is a renter's market. You can find something else.

Rule #3

Avoid litigation at all costs. A farang in the legal system here is like a babe in the woods. You won't know what is going on around you.

Nice try. Now are we supposed to think you're a reincarnation of Andrew Carnegie?

You're what the bargirls used to call a "Cheap Charlie".

Cut the crap. "A snake that sheds it's skin is still a snake"

Oh God, not again.

ILUVU2 Nah rahk meu-un derm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farang

Thanks for the reference. Now I know.

A question that often arises is the etymology and connotation of the word "farang". In plain English, where does it come from and does it have any negative racial overtones? If you ask Thais you will get all kinds of different answers telling you [as is their wont] what they think you want to hear. Or a simple "my sahp", just to shut you up.

If the erudite TV members have any information about this it would clear up a lot of misunderstanding, especially among people who are here for the first time.

My own belief is that it comes from the Farsi word "ferrangi" meaning "Frank", originally referring to crusaders, and used by the Persians who were in Ayudhya and held the posts of Shah Bandar at the Siamese ports in the 17th century. The French understandably like to think it comes from "Francaise". But the French were not the first farangs here. They were preceded by the Portugese and possibly others.

The second question is whether or not it is an insult as some of us seem to think. I don't believe it is. Of course, when combined with "kee nohk", it most certainly is. The addition of birdshit never improves anything [except maybe the statues of politicians]. But the word "farang" on it's own is, I think, neutral.

I have occasionally been called "khun farang" by strangers...not very often, but perhaps that is due to my lack of a dignified bearing [the OldGringo went native long ago]. If it had anything negative about it I'm sure it wouldn't be used in that way.

That's what I think. If I hear anything convincing to the contrary I would stand corrected.

Thank's for any comments on this.