Artist

This recent issue of the Health Report may help http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/healthreport/monday-february-16th/5234802

I have been wearing hearing aids in both ears for many years now and I couldn't do without them. Apart from clarifying sounds they also reduce the level of ringing (tinitus)

However, as the Health Report says, for a long time I tended not to wear them as I wasn't experiencing a great improvement as it takes time for the brain to adjust to the changed range of frequencies. I still can't hear what people are saying in a noisy environment which is very destructive as it cuts you out of the conversation and isolates you.

I had mine fitted in Australia and even here when I went for a checkup the audiologist discovered that the previous audiologist had set them up on the wrong ears. CaptHaddock covered the issue very well.

Where facts are few, experts are many

The problems with democracy in Thailand are part of a broad problem around the world which is discussed brilliantly by this article in the Economist. Its a long read but essential if you care about democracy

http://www.economist.com/news/essays/21596796-democracy-was-most-successful-political-idea-20th-century-why-has-it-run-trouble-and-what-can-be-do

I don't understand why people who hate Thailand and Thai people and consider this to be one of the most dangerous places on earth (for driving at least) come to this country and waste their time posting in this forum.

Why don't you go back to your own country and find a forum there where you can post about how wonderful it is.

Being positive might make you feel a lot better about yourself.

Having said that, its a complete waste of time posting on this topic as it has degenerated into moaning and trading insults

Be more competitive.

Lower your prices.

Offer better service.

Then people will start using your services again.

From Perth to BKK they are not bad, the service is good and the seats reasonably comfortable. We have tried the cut price airlines and for such a long flight they are very uncomfortable plus a wait in Singapore KL etc. Thai's offseason rates are competitive. We use them and recommend them to our guests.

But the fact remains that the stats DONT say its dangerous to drive in Thailand. All the stats say is that in the year of the survey, 44 fatalities were recorded in Thailand per 100 000 of population. This was the second highest result of all countries surveyed.

Thats all they say.

You could get from that that LOS is the second most dangerous country of the countries surveyed for road fatalities. That would be pretty safe to state based on this stat and accepting the survey limitations.

But you still have a 99.96% chance of not being a fatality.

Whether that makes Thailand a 'dangerous' place to drive or not is up to you, its completely subjective. The stats dont make any claims in this respect.

Incidentally, in regards to road accidents, if you think your past record is going to protect you from future harm, you are sadly mistaken. Good, safe drivers are killed everyday by idiots or bad roads. So this means your safe driving record has no bearing whatsoever on your statistical chance of being killed (when its expressed per head of population).

Thats why past driving history is irrelevant to what these stats tell us.

Hysterical? Pontificating?

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

That's cool you stay home afraid to venture out on to the streets and I will enjoy the glorious dangers of driving in this wonderful but frightening country

Sorry to burst your bubble mate but actually Aristotle predicted that the Earth is spherical in 330 BC from theoretical models. By the time of Colombus almost 2000 years later this theory was well accepted in Europe.

This is an excellent example of how theoretical models and ideas combined with experimentation can move humanity forward.
Its called science. Without it we wouldn't have the internal combustion engine and the question of Thailands road toll would be mute.

Mate, I said "proved" not "predicted"

I am sure you are aware that the scientific method includes observation and experimentation as well as theory.

This whole thread is full of hysterical claims as to how dangerous driving in Thailand is based on a statistic. Several of us here are saying that during years of driving in Thailand we have not found it so dangerous.

So our observation and experimentation disproves your theory.

There seem to be several things going on here

If you have not driven extensively in Thailand the crazy behaviour of drivers leads you to believe that it must be very dangerous to drive here. Sure by Western standards the driving is insane. As I have said previously in this thread people consistently overtake on blind bends forcing the oncoming traffic to break or pull onto the side shoulder. To the newcomer this must be very frightening, but you get used to it and drivers are all very aware and simply take evasive action. In 10 years of driving here I have never witnessed and accident. From my observation I can say its not as dangerous as it may appear.

I drive mainly in rural areas or on the major highways. I avoid going to the tourist centres as I don't like them. It may well be that driving in Phuket, Pattaya, Chiang Mai etc is more dangerous than the places I drive.

I suspect that some of those who pontificate about statistics and science don't actually have much experience of driving in Thailand and so are not really qualified to make considered comments.

“Theories might inspire you, but experiments will advance you.”

― Amit Kalantri

I really think that those posting their personal experiences should consider if their "offerings" are evidence of anything but but their own limited perception and analysis.

Personal experience is for the most part worthless especially when offered as a conclusive comment on a much, much bigger picture.

Of course you must be correct we should ignore those with experience who know what actually happens and accept the wildly exaggerated claims of those whose experience is limited to the media and holidays in Pattaya or Phuket. Well done wilcopops for coming up with this startling original and meaningless proposition.

You really don't gettit, which is the problem with most of the commentaries on road safety - "personal experience" is probably the worst way to examine any problem critically. If we did that most people would think the world was flat.

It was the explorers sailing their ships around the world who through experience proved that the world was spherical not the theorists sitting at their computers in cosy little houses and pontificating about the real world

Queue the usual 'Thailand, hub of...' posts and other crap.

I have safely driven maybe three quarters of a million miles in Los between 1977 and now. There's probably some who have done even more.

Sure it would be very risky for someone who had never, driven in LOS to get behind the wheel of a car at Suvarnabhumi and drive to (say) Pai on the pre-Songkran weekend... but who on earth does that?

There's loads of stats on what kills the most foreigners in Thailand but I don't recall it being driving related. Even if we look at the very high risk motorcycle accident victim, outside the tourists spots, you don't see a lot of foreigners on 2-wheels.

Many may drive accident free. but unfortunatley many others do not.

Its risky if you have driven here a hundred years.

The survey includes motorcycles. It's not crap, it's people lives.

As far as foreigners on 2 wheels you must be in an unusual area or a shut in.

Your statement about foreigners on 2 wheels illustrates the problem here. We have people who live in or who have visited the main tourist centres saying they have totally different experiences from people who live in rural areas. As far as I am concerned NanLaew is correct as in my area there are few foreigners on two wheels partly as there aren't many farangs.

It would be good if members posting on both side of this argument appreciated that the driving risks vary according to the area in which you live (or for some visited on holiday).

Queue the usual 'Thailand, hub of...' posts and other crap.

I have safely driven maybe three quarters of a million miles in Los between 1977 and now. There's probably some who have done even more.

Sure it would be very risky for someone who had never, driven in LOS to get behind the wheel of a car at Suvarnabhumi and drive to (say) Pai on the pre-Songkran weekend... but who on earth does that?

There's loads of stats on what kills the most foreigners in Thailand but I don't recall it being driving related. Even if we look at the very high risk motorcycle accident victim, outside the tourists spots, you don't see a lot of foreigners on 2-wheels.

Total rubbish

How many miles have you driven in Thailand prvtdetdave to support your rude conclusion that NanLaew's post is "Total rubbish"?

I really think that those posting their personal experiences should consider if their "offerings" are evidence of anything but but their own limited perception and analysis.

Personal experience is for the most part worthless especially when offered as a conclusive comment on a much, much bigger picture.

Of course you must be correct we should ignore those with experience who know what actually happens and accept the wildly exaggerated claims of those whose experience is limited to the media and holidays in Pattaya or Phuket. Well done wilcopops for coming up with this startling original and meaningless proposition.

There really are some people on this forum who just won't admit Thailand is a dangerous place. tal about having your head in the sand. LOS - thats a fallacy also

You need to take into account individual experience. I don't know whether you are claiming that Thailand is a dangerous place from personal experience or from the media.

In Australia I live in the Perth Hills which is a quiet and safe place, in Thailand I live in Phon Phisai, Nong Khai which is also a quiet and safe place.

If I lived in the inner suburbs of Perth and frequented the entertainment areas I would say that Perth is a dangerous place as I would if I lived in Patong or Pattaya. So it depends on where you live and your experiences.

Please dont claim that some of us are stupid or lying when we state that from our own experience over a long period that Thailand is not any more dangerous where we live than a similar Western country. How much experience do you have of living outside the capital cities of Thailand?

Valid or not.. Thailand is really a bad place for safety driving... really scary. !!!

Its very strange to me that so many people are scared of driving in Thailand and seem to feel that they are in constant danger. I have been driving here for 10 years and I enjoy it much more than driving in Australia which is so boring that the main problem is staying awake. Mind you, I mainly drive is Isaan and avoid the hell holes of Pattaya, Phuket and Chiang Mai. I have driven in Bangkok a few times which was great, if a trifle slow.

That you have positive experiences doesn't change the facts. Why not listen to others and believe what they say? Be happy that you have luckily avoided accidents, but please don't try to spread how great driving in Thailand is.

Please don't spread alarmist rubbish about how dangerous it is to drive in Thailand. I have been driving here for ten years and I have seen no more accidents than I would in Australia. I don't care what the statistics say as I know this from my own personal experience.

Driving here looks very dangerous. People overtake on blind bends, there is a mixture of slow and fast traffic with motorcycles etc, people tailgate and especially at some times of the year there are drunks driving.

This is compensated for by the standard of Thai driving. Drivers are alert and ready for the unexpected. Most drivers are polite and un-aggressive (unlike Australia), the main roads are well engineered and almost always have shoulder areas which you can pull on to when some idiot is coming the other way in your lane.

I drive fast at the same speed as the rest of the fast traffic, I always leave plenty of braking distance, on long journeys I drive with my lights on. The only situation which worries me is overtaking large trucks in dual carriageway with a median strip. Sometimes there is a vehicle in the path of the truck which I can't see (stopped for some reason) and I worry that I might get forced into the median strip. In practice Thai truck drivers are very aware of this and usually give way to me or indicate they are changing lanes.

I am sure that the statistics reflect a real higher risk from driving in Thailand but its nowhere near as bad as the scaremongers claim (maybe its worse in some areas of the country I don't visit like Phuket). The alternative is to bring in such restrictive rules and enforce them as they do in Australia where there is a real lack of freedom and people behave like sheep. I would hate to see that happen to Thailand.

Some very good points made about the validity of the stats. Readers should be wary of dubious stats. There is an excellent book that accompanied my Statistics for Social Sciences class that deals with how somebody can skew data to arrive at a particular conclusion. Perhaps that's the case here.

Would you think that 26,000 deaths is about right, ??? dead at incident, or maybe stats of above 30,000 annually. ??? 80% are m/cyclists here.

Naturally we have to take into account that the government of the day does not want to give actual figures, so these figures are frightening.

I think stats should be compiled as in sections----m/cyclist---cars/pick-ups---passenger vehicles---pedestrians---a.n. other. We then could have a better idea.

But Deaths in Thailand are more than alarming. all down to policing-education-licensing authorities-etc before any headway police patrols and enforcement essential. to start to give fear into violators, fines to be paid into road funds for upkeep and education. driving schools especially for m/cyclists with L plates for 1 year. NO underage drivers--parents to take full wack for violations. All persons driving without license and insurance heavily penalized.

Just a start from me, but so much more you guys.

I don't know but I figure that many of us who love Thailand do so because its not a Nanny State.

Sure the road toll could be reduced by draconian road laws being enforced as we have in Western Nations.

I guess for some of us at least its a worthwhile tradeoff. To exchange the opportunity for freedom, to ride in the back of a pickup, to not wear a helmet, to have a couple of beers and drive, to believe in ghosts and be fatalistic in knowing that if something bad happens, it was going to happen anyway, for some reduction in longevity.

I would rather take some risks and die before my time than live in a claustrophobic Western society where everything is controlled to save us from ourselves. A dull restrictive place where the law cocoons us to ensure we come to no harm and in doing so takes away our freedom, our imagination and the excitement of living.

Have some guts guys and live...don't worry too much about dying.

Yeah, rock and roll. That's fine when you're in your twenties with no responsibilities and you hope you'll die before you get old etc. etc,

Trouble is most ex pats in Thailand aren't like that.... except for an embarrassing few who still behave as if they were.

Ring any bells?

Nope, I don't hear any bells, do you? Get your ears checked for tinnitus, at your age it can be a problem.

If you love the Nanny State stay home in a Western country where its safe so you can die in sedated in a hospital bed with all your orifices filled with tubes.

At a risk of being thought of as a troll (which I am not). In my experience most ex pats in Thailand are assiduously sitting in bars and drinking themselves to death. If that rings a bell, don't blame me.

Some very good points made about the validity of the stats. Readers should be wary of dubious stats. There is an excellent book that accompanied my Statistics for Social Sciences class that deals with how somebody can skew data to arrive at a particular conclusion. Perhaps that's the case here.

Would you think that 26,000 deaths is about right, ??? dead at incident, or maybe stats of above 30,000 annually. ??? 80% are m/cyclists here.

Naturally we have to take into account that the government of the day does not want to give actual figures, so these figures are frightening.

I think stats should be compiled as in sections----m/cyclist---cars/pick-ups---passenger vehicles---pedestrians---a.n. other. We then could have a better idea.

But Deaths in Thailand are more than alarming. all down to policing-education-licensing authorities-etc before any headway police patrols and enforcement essential. to start to give fear into violators, fines to be paid into road funds for upkeep and education. driving schools especially for m/cyclists with L plates for 1 year. NO underage drivers--parents to take full wack for violations. All persons driving without license and insurance heavily penalized.

Just a start from me, but so much more you guys.

I don't know but I figure that many of us who love Thailand do so because its not a Nanny State.

Sure the road toll could be reduced by draconian road laws being enforced as we have in Western Nations.

I guess for some of us at least its a worthwhile tradeoff. To exchange the opportunity for freedom, to ride in the back of a pickup, to not wear a helmet, to have a couple of beers and drive, to believe in ghosts and be fatalistic in knowing that if something bad happens, it was going to happen anyway, for some reduction in longevity.

I would rather take some risks and die before my time than live in a claustrophobic Western society where everything is controlled to save us from ourselves. A dull restrictive place where the law cocoons us to ensure we come to no harm and in doing so takes away our freedom, our imagination and the excitement of living.

Have some guts guys and live...don't worry too much about dying.

Queue the usual 'Thailand, hub of...' posts and other crap.

I have safely driven maybe three quarters of a million miles in Los between 1977 and now. There's probably some who have done even more.

Sure it would be very risky for someone who had never, driven in LOS to get behind the wheel of a car at Suvarnabhumi and drive to (say) Pai on the pre-Songkran weekend... but who on earth does that?

There's loads of stats on what kills the most foreigners in Thailand but I don't recall it being driving related. Even if we look at the very high risk motorcycle accident victim, outside the tourists spots, you don't see a lot of foreigners on 2-wheels.

Its quite obvious there are "less than bright people" posting everywhere.

The stats relate to the country and people. No eduction, no sense of respect for drivers and law. So these people die on the roads.

If your not Thai, then the report is not talking about you, no matter how many years of respectful driving you have done in Thailand..

Post when they do a survey of tourists driving in Thailand... then it will make more sense and relate to the OP.... sheeesh

Its so reassuring that we have the intelligentsia posting here.

Thai vehicles can't enter Vietnam, even on a pre-arranged tour since Dec 25, 2013. In fact, nowadays even LHD vehicles from other countries need advance permission and an escort to drive into Vietnam. The single exception is for Lao vehicles. If you want to drive into Vietnam, why don't you drive a Lao vehicle? You can rent a Lao vehicle in Vientiane and drive it to Vietnam. I've done it before. Note that you should check recent trip reports to see if foreigners and Vietnamese are allowed to drive into Vietnam with a Lao car; with a Lao driver it's no problem though.

Thanks that's very interesting and a great idea. I wonder why Vietnam is making it more difficult to enter the country when the ASEAN aim is to reduce border obstacles?

That's the same thing I'm wondering. A Cambodian travel agent I met in Koh Kong near the Thai border who was born in the Mekong Delta region of Vietnam (he's a Khmer Krom or Lower Khmer) had previously driven to Thailand many times and Vietnam two times with his Cambodian car without incident. Thailand is of course never a problem anyway. However, on this most recent occasion (late last year) he attempted to cross into Vietnam at Ha Tien near Phu Quoc on the Vietnamese coast. He even obtained some kind of permission from the Vietnamese consulate in Sihanoukville before attempting the crossing. After being asked where he wanted to travel, he was refused entry with his car and so he returned to Koh Kong disappointed.

Apparently nowadays only commercial vehicles can enter Vietnam from Cambodia.

I think Vietnam is attempting one last ditch effort to prevent a large influx of foreign registered vehicles before AEC arrives which is when they may be required to open up their borders to cross border traffic, whether they like it or not.

BTW if you want to drive into Vietnam, have a chat with Avis in Laos. They have branches in Luang Prabang, Vientiane (main office) and Pakse. With them you'll be able to drive into Vietnam and self-drive within Vietnam is no problem once you're past customs. The only thing I'm waiting for confirmation on is if crossing the border into Vietnam currently requires a Lao person on the temporary import form or not, as I was told in October 2012 at Bo Y, which is the southernmost Lao/Vietnam crossing. Rules may be interpreted differently by different officials and different border crossings though.

Thanks for the advice, i am beginning to feel enthusiastic about a trip....Jeremy

Valid or not.. Thailand is really a bad place for safety driving... really scary. !!!

Its very strange to me that so many people are scared of driving in Thailand and seem to feel that they are in constant danger. I have been driving here for 10 years and I enjoy it much more than driving in Australia which is so boring that the main problem is staying awake. Mind you, I mainly drive is Isaan and avoid the hell holes of Pattaya, Phuket and Chiang Mai. I have driven in Bangkok a few times which was great, if a trifle slow.

In my experience Thai drivers are much more alert and polite than Australian drivers. Of course Thai drivers do crazy things like overtaking on blind bends but everybody expects it and just pulls off to make way for them. If I drove in Australia the way I do in Thailand I would have guys tailgating me flashing their lights and making rude signs at me. In Thailand drivers are very forgiving.

On the whole Thailand major roads are well engineered and the road rules are good. Turn left with care against red traffic lights and U turns rather than Right turns are examples.

Some Australian driving conventions are downright stupid. Last week a friend of mine had an accident in the NW. The rain was so hard he couldn't see clearly and he knew their was a rest stop on the right so he decided to pull over. He signalled right and some idiot tried to overtake him as he turned and the two 4WDs collided. Nobody was hurt fortunately. The idiot said that when my friend signalled right he thought that meant "its clear to overtake me" and its true that is the convention that Ozzie truckies use. They must be out of their minds!!

In Thailand indicating right means either I am turning right or do not overtake me. Indicating left means I am turning left or it is clear to overtake. Now that is a rational convention.

Maybe you should teach Thais their own "rational conventions" as it seems the stats suggest they don't understand them well

That is an inane and slightly insulting remark. Like many here I can only report my personal experiences.

In my experience Thai drivers are much more alert and polite than Australian drivers. Of course Thai drivers do crazy things like overtaking on blind bends but everybody expects it and just pulls off to make way for them. If I drove in Australia the way I do in Thailand I would have guys tailgating me flashing their lights and making rude signs at me. In Thailand drivers are very forgiving.

On the whole Thailand major roads are well engineered and the road rules are good. Turn left with care against red traffic lights and U turns rather than Right turns are examples.

Some Australian driving conventions are downright stupid. Last week a friend of mine had an accident in the NW. The rain was so hard he couldn't see clearly and he knew their was a rest stop on the right so he decided to pull over. He signalled right and some idiot tried to overtake him as he turned and the two 4WDs collided. Nobody was hurt fortunately. The idiot said that when my friend signalled right he thought that meant "its clear to overtake me" and its true that is the convention that Ozzie truckies use. They must be out of their minds!!

In Thailand indicating right means either I am turning right or do not overtake me. Indicating left means I am turning left or it is clear to overtake. Now that is a rational convention.

Thai vehicles can't enter Vietnam, even on a pre-arranged tour since Dec 25, 2013. In fact, nowadays even LHD vehicles from other countries need advance permission and an escort to drive into Vietnam. The single exception is for Lao vehicles. If you want to drive into Vietnam, why don't you drive a Lao vehicle? You can rent a Lao vehicle in Vientiane and drive it to Vietnam. I've done it before. Note that you should check recent trip reports to see if foreigners and Vietnamese are allowed to drive into Vietnam with a Lao car; with a Lao driver it's no problem though.

Thanks that's very interesting and a great idea. I wonder why Vietnam is making it more difficult to enter the country when the ASEAN aim is to reduce border obstacles?

My wife's sister's toddler was bitten by a neighbour's dog recently. We were out at the time but with great presence of mind my sister-in-law rushed the little boy to the local shaman, who took a mouthful of Lao Khao and sprayed it over the wound. When we got back we took him to hospital for rabies injections but she still insisted on going to the shaman for treatment as well. I have a feeling that it wouldn't have worked though:)

If you check the proposed Asian Highway network, the meeting point is at Khon Kaen presently. The Big project is likely to be AH 16. Just my thoughts.

Thanks I didn't know about the Asian Highway network. There are lots of maps but none of them I could find clearly show any schedule or routes meeting in Khon Kaen. The maps here http://www.safehaven.com/article/21399/realizing-cambodias-investment-potential seem to indicate a road from Vientiane through to the coast in Vietnam. Also Mittraphap from Nong Khai to Bangkok is shown which makes sense as its the main route from Bangkok to Lao. This passes through Khon Kaen (or around) of course.

Can you let me have a link to the The Big project?

I just went by bus from Vientiane to Luang Phrabang and back last month and scenery along the way is spectacular once you are 3 hours out of Vientiane. I would suggest planning to spend a night somewhere just past the half way point in one of the mountain villages...really beautiful. Many of the villages we passed through had signs for fairly modern looking guest houses. The trip was about 10 hours.

The road is in good condition most of the way but it is a hairy ride; an almost unending succession of switchbacks and hairpin turns on a road that is a bit less than narrow with little shoulder and some VERY steep & deep drop-offs.

There is an constant procession of heavy, tandem trucks and buses who pass one another with no regard for fog, blind corners, hilltops, hairpin turns and oncoming traffic.

I suspect you won't get to see that much of the incredible mountain scenery because your eyes, as well as your passenger's, will be fixed to the road and the vehicles coming towards you...in your lane.

Seriously, from the high windows of the bus, we could see a lot but there is a lot of brush roadside and I suspect it blocks a significant range of vistas from the lower windows of a car. I spoke with some people who had driven to the Plain of Jars and they said that ride was spectacular as well.

Yes thanks for that. A few years ago I went on that route and the scenery was fantastic. We stayed at a guesthouse in village with limestone mountains crystal clear river and caves I remember, but the roads were definitely scary. It would be good to take our guests there.

NongKhai is a family town accorsing to me.

Best place to retire without huslles and bussles!!

I agree, I love Nong Khai and Phon Phisai even more as they are both sleepy places:)