Trembly

So you say it's not clear whether Thaksin and his PT government are guilty of incompetence or corruption... or maybe both?

One thing does seem quite clear though, Thailand is better off without them.

edit typo

Its not illegal to be incompetent. I wish they could apply that to Gordon brown but alas.

Its not illegal to splurge public money.

It is illegal to embezzle public money though.

According to the scheme, the money should have either been sitting in government coffers / banks or it should have been in rice-depositors' bank accounts. One or the other.

It has been painfully apparent that neither was the case (bar a lucky portion of the latter) so . . . where's the money?

The vast majority of it is sitting in a gigantic pile of unsold rice, slowly going mouldy.

No, that's rice. I'm talking about money that was meant to pay depositors for it.

1. Govt (to farmers) : you give me rice, I give you money

2. Farmers : here's the rice, money please . . .

3. Govt : sorry, please wait a moment

4. Govt (to state finances) : give us some more money please . . .

5. State finances : . . . but but . . but we just gave you an increase in the budget and the farmers haven't been paid yet

6. Govt : just give us the money . . .

It's not a 'pay-as-you-sell' scheme, it's a 'pay-as-you-stockpile' scheme, which means the money should already be there to pay for the stockpiling without any sale intended until the stockpiling is over.

They bought it for 1000, then they processed it which made it then cost 2000, but the world sale price is only 900.

This is using illustrative figures. As far as I have read the beat quality stuff has cost them about 27000 baht per tonne but the sale price fob bangkok is only 14000.

They have still millions of tonnes of rice unsold so the loss has yet to be realised.

Get me drift. This is before any corruption. That is where the vast majority of the so called loss has gone. At that level it was never going to be self funding.

So, is it illegal to have over paid the farmer? No. Is it illegal to have paid a processing and storage fee? No.

What is the product sitting in warehouse gojng to lose them? Probably between 700 and 1500 baht to be every tonne at FOB.

How may tonnes? 60,000,000 to 90,000,000 so far.

Just focus on the emboldened.

It's not illegal to over pay the farmer, but it is illegal not to pay them at all.

Why were they not paid? "No money"

But you had a budget. You even got an increase over and above the original budget despite misgivings from the Bank of Thailand! "... can we have some more money please?"

Why is there no money? "Don't know"

If they hadn't called the election and got stymied as an interim govt, they would have got paid.

So, do you agree its possible there hasn't been billions missapropriated from this deal?

Then please explain why :

1. Payments to farmers stopped months before parliament was dissolved.

2. Extra budget was requested as input into the scheme months and months before any protests, despite the fact that there was no output in the form of payments to farmers.

Let me put it this way. If I give you some money to buy beer and you come back half an hour later without any beer, asking for for more money, what am I supposed to say or think?

So you say it's not clear whether Thaksin and his PT government are guilty of incompetence or corruption... or maybe both?

One thing does seem quite clear though, Thailand is better off without them.

edit typo

Its not illegal to be incompetent. I wish they could apply that to Gordon brown but alas.

Its not illegal to splurge public money.

It is illegal to embezzle public money though.

According to the scheme, the money should have either been sitting in government coffers / banks or it should have been in rice-depositors' bank accounts. One or the other.

It has been painfully apparent that neither was the case (bar a lucky portion of the latter) so . . . where's the money?

The vast majority of it is sitting in a gigantic pile of unsold rice, slowly going mouldy.

No, that's rice. I'm talking about money that was meant to pay depositors for it.

1. Govt (to farmers) : you give me rice, I give you money

2. Farmers : here's the rice, money please . . .

3. Govt : sorry, please wait a moment

4. Govt (to state finances) : give us some more money please . . .

5. State finances : . . . but but . . but we just gave you an increase in the budget and the farmers haven't been paid yet

6. Govt : just give us the money . . .

It's not a 'pay-as-you-sell' scheme, it's a 'pay-as-you-stockpile' scheme, which means the money should already be there to pay for the stockpiling without any sale intended until the stockpiling is over.

They bought it for 1000, then they processed it which made it then cost 2000, but the world sale price is only 900.

This is using illustrative figures. As far as I have read the beat quality stuff has cost them about 27000 baht per tonne but the sale price fob bangkok is only 14000.

They have still millions of tonnes of rice unsold so the loss has yet to be realised.

Get me drift. This is before any corruption. That is where the vast majority of the so called loss has gone. At that level it was never going to be self funding.

So, is it illegal to have over paid the farmer? No. Is it illegal to have paid a processing and storage fee? No.

What is the product sitting in warehouse gojng to lose them? Probably between 700 and 1500 baht to be every tonne at FOB.

How may tonnes? 60,000,000 to 90,000,000 so far.

Just focus on the emboldened.

It's not illegal to over pay the farmer, but it is illegal not to pay them at all.

Why were they not paid? "No money"

But you had a budget. You even got an increase over and above the original budget despite misgivings from the Bank of Thailand! "... can we have some more money please?"

Why is there no money? "Don't know"

So you say it's not clear whether Thaksin and his PT government are guilty of incompetence or corruption... or maybe both?

One thing does seem quite clear though, Thailand is better off without them.

edit typo

Its not illegal to be incompetent. I wish they could apply that to Gordon brown but alas.

Its not illegal to splurge public money.

It is illegal to embezzle public money though.

According to the scheme, the money should have either been sitting in government coffers / banks or it should have been in rice-depositors' bank accounts. One or the other.

It has been painfully apparent that neither was the case (bar a lucky portion of the latter) so . . . where's the money?

The vast majority of it is sitting in a gigantic pile of unsold rice, slowly going mouldy.

No, that's rice. I'm talking about money that was meant to pay depositors for it.

1. Govt (to farmers) : you give me rice, I give you money

2. Farmers : here's the rice, money please . . .

3. Govt : sorry, please wait a moment

4. Govt (to state finances) : give us some more money please . . .

5. State finances : . . . but but . . but we just gave you an increase in the budget and the farmers haven't been paid yet

6. Govt : just give us the money . . .

It's not a 'pay-as-you-sell' scheme, it's a 'pay-as-you-stockpile' scheme, which means the money should already be there to pay for the stockpiling without any sale intended until the stockpiling is over.

Double post.

Lost to whom?

How much was pilfered and how much is simply the difference between the global and paid price?

That is the issue, not the subsidy loss.

So you say it's not clear whether Thaksin and his PT government are guilty of incompetence or corruption... or maybe both?

One thing does seem quite clear though, Thailand is better off without them.

edit typo

Its not illegal to be incompetent. I wish they could apply that to Gordon brown but alas.

Its not illegal to splurge public money.

It is illegal to embezzle public money though.

According to the scheme, the money should have either been sitting in government coffers / banks or it should have been in rice-depositors' bank accounts. One or the other.

It has been painfully apparent that neither was the case (bar a lucky portion of the latter) so . . . where's the money?

i am impressed with the efficiency of the coup leaders. in the west corruption investigations take months if not years to complete. if they can get the whole country working this efficiently it would be amazing thailand.

or maybe they havent done any investigation at all and are making unsubstantiated statements...

Have you ever wondered why corruption investigations and official inquiries in the west (or anywhere, for that matter) take so long to complete - and why they are quite often a whitewash?

So I'll take from your reply that it is a hunting expedition with no specific charges yet. I'm interested because I think the Rice Scheme was a good thing and hope it or some subsidy like it will be continued to support the rural areas. It would be too bad if embezzlement, outright theft or criminal mismanagement would prove to taint the entire program.

People are usually happier and more content when their problems seem to have melted away under some spell like that of alcohol. Unfortunately the next morning they often awake with a headache and find their problems have returned. Of course they could choose to just keep on drinking. Facing problems sober and head-on is not a lot of fun for anyone.

Honest bill i tried to follow your logic but failed, So you believe any person who was involved in the loss of 500 billion + missing rice has since this coup turned to alcohol?

My logic should be easy to follow. I asked "are there specific charges?" I could add 'against specific people'? You seem to believe there is a loss of 500 billion baht and missing rice. From where or whom did you hear these figures and reports? I've heard rumors and allegations of this too, but that was during the Red Shirt/Yellow Shirt tug-of-war and very subject to skepticism - at least IMO. Is that what this NACC investigation is about?

And 500 billion baht is certainly hyperbole, isn't it? The junta's current payments of the delayed payments are said to total 92 billion. In my area about 2/3 of the farmers had already been paid by the former government. Event if that was only 1/2 my quick math tells me the total couldn't be much more than 200 billion. Where did the claim 500 billion loss come from? And even at that there is no "loss" of 500 or 200 billion. There is still rice to sell, isn't there? And the program never was intended to make a profit or even break even, was it? It was a subsidy. The government bought rice at above-market prices and was then to sell it overseas. Any difference would be made up out of the general fund. That's how a subsidy works.

Is there rice missing? Again, I've heard rumors and allegations of this but have seen no definite accounting. I assume the NACC investigation will cover this also and determine if there is, how much and whether this is due to mismanagement or theft.

My alcohol analogy might be harder to follow. It was in response to GoodThaiGirl's remark that "thailand is much more happier (sic) and stable since 9 days ago". It was merely to remind that some things bring happiness in the short term, but not always a happiness that lasts.

Thanks for engaging with me in a discussion about the Rice Pledging Scheme. I really do want to know why so many Farangs and Thais on this forum seem to be so vehemently disgusted and opposed to it, when in my experience out here in the rural areas it was seen to be of great benefit to the famers and farming communities. It's hard to distinguish between the objections focusing on the program itself, or on just the alleged mismanagement of the program, or just a dislike of the former government in general.

Your (or anyone else's) comments would be appreciated...

For starters you had better look into who people define as the farmers.

You can ask most of the farmers in Thailand --have you any money due that should have been paid back--answer NO. Because most of these peasant farmers only grow for themselves and sell off stored surplus out of their rice house when funds are needed.

leaving large land owners/or lessees more in the picture. Then the big boys the middlemen--millers--rice farm storage, this is the bracket where I would think the corruption would take place--and where government failed.

The poorest farmers in greatest need of help actually didn't even qualify for the scheme due to the acreage threshold.

Send in The Special Branch.

Branch - is that a pun?

Of course not, corruption is deeply rooted in this country

But it's as if some people haven't twigged.

Not surprising as this investigation is more focusing on the "nuts and bolts" of the scam. The thing is not to prove that they were involved, but more that they were aware of it.

I wonder what Supa has to say about this though?

Oh that's right she won't dribble information out as the investigation by the NACC is progressing. The NACC will wait until it has fully completed its investigation and present its findings.

That is the one I am looking forward to.

I agree.

The key word being 'YET'.

The NACC are looking at the whole structure of money movement and where all of it has ended up.

The police findings have just added to the paper trail and unearthed previously unmentioned techniques of fraud.

The bigger picture is that claims were made at the highest government levels, and that includes Finance and Commerce ministers releasing statements of which will soon be proven lies.

The government have had the luxury of 7 months to hide stuff and destroy all incriminating evidence that points directly at the upper structures.

But rest assured that missing evidence (and there must be lots) will be just as guilt bearing as a smoking gun.

It is the money that can't be hidden or destroyed as it always leaves a paper trail and the majority of the missing cash will have been transferred electronically... you can't just carry hundreds of billions of baht around, and even if you could, the paper trail would stop at YOU.... All money is documented right up to it hitting a person's palm.

I wonder why has the story about the 80 billion that went to Hong Kong via the shadow banking terminal in China town gone quiet. Has the journalist who uncovered that been silenced? Perhaps the NACC has put a gag on it pending investigation . . .

What are in back ground? They didn't pay enough money to police, or tried to cheat on them. The most of black games and lottery belong to police.

If you ask your Thai mate: do u know black casino / lottery. They will ask yes of course. So if every-one know them why is this a big case to raid on one ???

(the answer is in the first line:)

These places are very likely to have been running under the Redshirt organisation - up until now the untouchables - one of the reasons I believe they wanted to maintain PTP at the top of the food chain - it is all linked to Power and money, I have always said that the redshirt organisation was very akin to a large scale mafia organisation, without the central government support backbone it will gradually crumble

Casinos were (and possibly have always been) Chalerm's 'bread n butter'. They were how he made his mark as a young police Lieutenant over in Thonburi and how he was able to take early retirement as a mere Captain to enter mainstream electoral politics.

Maybe it's the price that has to be paid to allow him and his 2 thugs out of the slammer??

I doubt that there is any high level politics at play here.

Chonburi is the Khunpluem (of Gamnan Poh fame) family fiefdom, so this casino would have been off limits to Chalerm or the redshirts.

They're strong enough and rich enough in their stronghold to see off most comers, but they're not big enough to reach outside the eastern seaboard or do much more than occasional king-making in Bangkok. Having said that, they're hardly minnows; Chonburi - Laem Chabang - Pattaya - Rayong . . . 'nuff said.

There's no love lost between the Khunpluems and PTP, since PTP were in charge when the Khunpluem patriarch Gamnan Poh was arrested after pretending to be a fugitive in Chonburi for years and years.

Notwithstanding any deals that Phalang Chon Party (the Khunpluems' political entity) may have been forced to strike with PTP in order to secure the release of Gamnan Poh, the Khunpluems are waiting for the chance to 'lend a foot' to any kicking of PTP.

I am in no position to make any presumptions about the General's plans, but I doubt that he would choose to pick a fight with the Khunpluem's at this time.

What are in back ground? They didn't pay enough money to police, or tried to cheat on them. The most of black games and lottery belong to police.

If you ask your Thai mate: do u know black casino / lottery. They will ask yes of course. So if every-one know them why is this a big case to raid on one ???

(the answer is in the first line:)

These places are very likely to have been running under the Redshirt organisation - up until now the untouchables - one of the reasons I believe they wanted to maintain PTP at the top of the food chain - it is all linked to Power and money, I have always said that the redshirt organisation was very akin to a large scale mafia organisation, without the central government support backbone it will gradually crumble

Casinos were (and possibly have always been) Chalerm's 'bread n butter'. They were how he made his mark as a young police Lieutenant over in Thonburi and how he was able to take early retirement as a mere Captain to enter mainstream electoral politics.

Lot of police work going on lately ...

people dont understand foreign aid ..its a scam ...we give you lots of money as long as you buy OUR weapons to kill people

'Foreign aid' is just a political euphemism for a cash bribe between nations.

Farmers will be pleased to be paid. It's great. However, they will not forget that it was the old guard who blocked the payment in the first place.Nothing to do with the policy itself , just pure bloody-mindedness by Sutphep and the cronies.

Who blocked payments before the protests?

PTP led government did not delay paying the rice farmers. It was EC who tried to bargain with the government - delay election or no payment, and the dem and its pdrc blocking the payments. Threatened banks not to cooperate with the government to pay rice farmers. According to this report, they have been enough funds to pay them and other avenues that funds were available.

So why weren't they paid in the months preceding the protests?

The banner should read "Thaksin and Yingluck the comedy duo appearing daily".

Yes indeed, and they will be a comedy duo, that is until the first foreign nation recognizes them Should the U.N., E.U., U.S., Japan or another major country recognize them as the rightful leaders of a government in exile, then the comedy will not be so funny for those military leaders who put themselves out on a limb. If they do indeed set up a government in exile then I think that the U.N. would likely be the first to recognize them and start sanctions against Thailand

First of all any sanctions will not affect Thailand as much as you hope they will... Thailand is a VERY self sufficient nation.

Second, if you think the US is going to host this embarrasment of a government you have another thing coming, it is one thing to issue sterile statements and another to stand defiant and assist a possible civil war in a country that the US really needs to be on side with militarily.

The US needs Thailand more than Thailand needs the US.

Thailand could ride out sanctions for years pal. They don't export billions of gallons of oil or anything really that a country gets massive wealth from.

Rice?...... Plenty of countries will still buy it.

Thailand does NOT depend on the west as much as you have deluded yourself to believe.

Finally..... The army have only just started digging through the dirt, and I would assume in a month or so, they will have so much evidence of corruption and state sponsored terrorism on the lot of them, they will probably all find themselves in the international criminal court.

It won't be too long before the army can prove they have done the right thing to the world, and if Laos or Cambodia want to play host to them, then they ought to watch their own backs.

Much of what you wrote is true....though confining your argument to only the US weakens it a bit, I think. If the international community at large comes down on Thailand, it will be much more difficult to sustain. Few countries, in this interconnected world, are truly disassociated from the international community as a whole. Somalia, Iran, N Korea - are these models to emulate? One thinks not.

Strong international opinion does matter - whether that is the case here remains to be seen but it shouldn't be dismissed so lightly, IMO. Great discussion, btw.

So much for his ' I've quit politics' mantra. Note to self: never believe the man.

It would be irresponsible of him to allow this current dictatorship to continue their human rights violations unchallenged. He is far from perfect to be sure, but when given the choice between a quasi-corrupt politician and a violent military dictatorship, I'd pick the imperfect politician every time.

If you think this is violent I wonder what you might have thought of the 3000 summary executions or the Krue Seh massacre...

"Why is this happening? Genetically engineered crops are manipulated in a way that could never occur in nature so plants like corn, soy, canola, cotton, and sugar beets can withstand high doses of glyphosate-containing herbicides that would normally kill them. The result? Roundup in food that people and farm animals eat.

As more and more weeds become resistant to glyphosate and GE technology fails, farmers spray heavier glyphosate applications—and more often. Glypshoate is systemic, meaning it's take up inside of the plant. As nonorganic farmers crank up glyphosate use, the Environmental Protection Agency has been slowly increasing allowable levels of glyphosate in food.

The Norwegian study detected a whopping 9 milligrams of Roundup per kilogram, on average. That's nearly double what Monsanto—the maker of Roundup—deemed "extreme" in 1999, according to an article in The Ecologist. But with the emergence of hard-or-impossible-to-kill superweeds, the EPA has quietly raised allowable residue limits in soy by 200 percent."

http://www.rodalenews.com/roundup-food?cm_mmc=Facebook-_-Rodale-_-Food-_-ExtremeLevelsofRoundupDetectedinFood

Democracy fanatics; would you support the murder of all persons with a name beginning in S if a simple majority had voted for it?

Or the confiscation of all non Thai citizen bank account holders funds for distribution to the rice farmers?

The second example is akin to how many tax payers feel about thier taxes getting used by shin to buy the northern rural (non tax payers) votes.

If it meant the murder of Suthep hell yeah.

BTW what a load of bullshit the rural people dont pay taxes. Everything, from petrol for their trucks to food in the shop is subject to VAT. This VAT plays a far bigger role in tax revenues than income tax which is what i presume you talk of.

They don't pay any income tax that is what I was referring to. The rice scheme was a clear vote buying ploy and not a helping the poor measure- if helping the poor some kind of blanket means tested income support would have been the fair policy. Lots of poor who are not rice farmers.

Anyway. So you condem Simon, Sanjay and Somchai to death if a majority vote for it; you jest I guess but the point stands; majority can vote for terrible things and just because they vote for it does not make it right!

The poorest farmers didn't even qualify for the scheme because of the acreage threshold.

The coup leaders say it consists of The Army, Navy, Air Force and National Police. But the police are the main part of Thailand problems!

Why can't they see this and reform the Police as well.

Chris

They have no choice but to bring the police into the fold for a number of reasons.

Technically, the RTP are not really a civil force like in most countries, but are a fully fledged gendarmerie. They are counted as one of Thailand's four armed forces and Armed Forces Preparatory School cadets have the option of choosing to serve in either the RTA, RTN, RTAF or RTP upon graduation.

The other reason is that soldiers aren't police and most police work requires police, which is why the US kept the Japanese police on post WWII. Just look at the sheer, utter chaos that ensued when the entire Iraqi police force that were there under Saddam were sacked in 2003.

And probably the most important reason of all is that Prayuth knows he has to keep 'em close where he can see 'em, so that he can size them up for the inevitable horse trading that will go on for quite some time. He has to bind them into a political solution somehow.

can you imagine an American General 'Suspending the Constitution'? maybe in a US TV series but this is 'supposed to be' REAL LIFE

I thought Binjalin was trolling and being facetious but, maybe not so I am going to answer the questions quickly off the top of my head.

#1. Compare US to Thailand-- yes.

#2. Eric Holder.

#3. Nepotism? Rampant in US.

#4. I don't understand the question. But, perjury is common.

#5. Bill Clinton convicted perjury and pardoned. Ford pardoning Nixon.

I might add a few other practices of a mature western democracy; tapping phones,using taxing arm of gov't to suppress opposition parties, selling weapons to drug dealers, and way more stuff.

And various billionaires in th US are always trying to interfere with the US Constitution. (trying to change the 2d amendment)

Just sayin', oc

You are being silly if you think there is any comparison between Thailand and the US. I'd advise you to look at some statistics. The US is way ahead in almost every respect: standard of living, honesty, lack of corruption, etc.

Just try living in Thailand for a while and you will realise what lying and self-deception really mean. No western country comes anywhere close.

Binjalin asked a sensible question: can you imagine a US General suspending the constitution? And of course you can't. Western countries have proper democracies. Thailand hasn't. Thailand's 'democracy' is a joke. This country is like a kindergarden. No-one abides by rules or democratic decisions. The legal processes are all bound up with 'who you know'.

The country is doomed, most especially because some misguided people think that the 'answer' lies in Suthep or the military. Actually the answer lies in democracy, but that has never really been tried in Thailand.

Western countries like the US are corporatocracies masquerading as democracies.

11 Things The Koch Brothers Don't Want You To Know

Princeton study concludes: US is an oligarchy, not a democracy

The Amazing Revolving Door - Monsanto, FDA & EPA

The Revolving Door Between Monsanto, the FDA, and the EPA: Your Safety in Peril

Wall St. / the City of London would very much like Thailand to follow this wonderful example in a more systematic (read : compliant subsidiary) fashion, with no surprises and pesky local power plays to get in the way or, god forbid, tip things in the balance of other world powers.

That is why Thaksin is their chosen one, a sort of economic Pinochet.

Before Thaksin it was the Democrats; they weren't very efficient or effective as far as the globalists were concerned, but they were the biggest and best organised party and you just have to work with what you've got. . . until Thaksin came along. His CEO style suited them to a T, if you'll excuse the expression.

was there really a difference in Thailand before and after thaksin?

I hope that we will find out before too long.

How is the democracy loving Kerry words on Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, etc?; total f***ing hypocrites should mind their own business.

If they have any brains they should realize Thai military are one of the few places they could find friendship in a region increasingly dominated by the Chinese.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

It is an intriguing thought that a country that puts itself outside one superpower's sphere of influence might find itself been drawn into that of another. And yet I cannot see that the Thai royalists would find it easy to preserve the feudal order if Beijng were calling the shots.

Beijing couldn't give a 3825 about monarchy. The Chinese premier is quite simply the emperor in red and the politburo is his court. They'll treat with anybody if it suits them.

Aljazeera are reporting that Prayuth has appointed himself as the new Prime Minister.

I can't find this on Al Jazeera . . . link please?