Nordlys

On 4/17/2022 at 8:53 PM, Nordlys said:

Is the negative COVID test still required for transiting passengers after they abolished the pre-flight RT-PCR test for fully vaccinated Thailand Pass holders?  Or is the pre-flight test supposed to substitute post-arrival test still mandated to all arrival passengers?  And where can one buy 24 hrs health insurance?

Also, does "sealed route" include airport shower facility and dining area (cafe and restaurants)?  

9 hours ago, BritTim said:

If pre departure Covid tests are not a requirement for your destination country, I do not think they will be a requirement for the transit at Suvarnabhumi. However, I would recommend that you verify your airline endorses this interpretation of the rules.

Pre-departure COVID test is not required for the destination country (London Heathrow) and neither is health insurance covering US$20,000.  However, it's pretty obvious health insurance covering said amount is required even for transit passengers spending less than 24 hrs at Suvarnabhumi.  I raised the question because there's a conflicting information between Thailand Pass FAQs PDF issued by foreign ministry (link posted by ubonjoe) and Civil Aviation Authority of Thailand announcement (link below) that does not mention pre-flight COVID test as requirement (dated April 7th, 2022).  The planned flight (Tokyo, Narita → BKK → HRW) is 2 months away and there's a good chance it will all be scrapped if Thailand Pass is abolished by then.  However, with all the variables it's hard to book the flight beforehand while the TG sales lasts.  As you said, I should probably ask the airline.  

https://www.caat.or.th/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/guidelines-Inter-flight-with-Transit-Transfer-passegers-TH-ENG.pdf

On 3/9/2022 at 5:55 AM, ubonjoe said:

Source: https://consular.mfa.go.th/th/content/thailand-pass-faqs-2

Is the negative COVID test still required for transiting passengers after they abolished the pre-flight RT-PCR test for fully vaccinated Thailand Pass holders?  Or is the pre-flight test supposed to substitute post-arrival test still mandated to all arrival passengers?  And where can one buy 24 hrs health insurance?

I heard from a border police/soldier at Khao Phra Wihan National Park in Sisaket that access to the Preah Vihear Temple that has been denied to all Thai passport holders either via border crossing with Thailand or from within the Cambodian border for the last 15 years has finally been allowed in recent years (but from within Cambodian borders only).  Can anyone confirm if this is true?  

I'm planning a trip to the world heritage site with my Thai wife after the pandemic is over and all COVID restrictions lifted.  

2 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

It is here in immigration order 327/2557. Many Thai's have gotten one due to entering with their foreign passport.

 

Thanks so much ubonjoe.  

Someone messaged me this link.  

https://www.thaicitizenship.com/thai-ancestry-visas/

I never knew such visa existed.  I assume this is the same thing?  

On 4/2/2020 at 2:24 PM, blackcab said:

There is no need for you to do this. You can get a 1 year extension of stay for 1,900 baht on the basis that you are a Thai citizen. The 1 year extension of stay will be entered into your Japanese passport.

 

As far as immigration is concerned you will still have to comply with TM30 and 90 day reports.

 

If you do not leave Thailand after 1 year, you can get another 1 year extension on the same basis.

Please allow me to revive this thread.  

I went to the Immigration Bureau at Chaeng Wattana twice this year for different matters but also raised this issue and discussed with the officials there (PR section staffs).  They've all shown keen interest in my case and most of them told me it doesn't matter if my visa expired and I ended up overstaying as foreigner so long I can prove with my Thai national ID card that I'm Thai.  I'm not so sure if I can take my word for it and I'd rather leave a clean immigration record as a Japanese passport holder even if I can continue to stay legally as a Thai.  

BTW is there any name for that extension scheme?  that you say I can apply on the ground that I'm a Thai citizen?  No one at the Immigration Bureau suggested any such extension provision exists on both occasions I visited Chaeng Wattana.  I've since managed to get another 2 years extension of my Non-Imm B visa but it will expire next April and this time around it's won't be extendable as my employment contract will cease next year.  We're closing the company so there's no longer a company to sponsor my Non-Imm B.  How do you extend Non-Imm B visa when your employer ceases to exist?  

The other option I was suggested is to change my visa to marriage visa which I assume I can do without leaving the kingdom....  Showing minimum 400,000 Baht deposit in Thai bank account is not an issue but how do I go around the min 40,000 monthly income when I go out of work?  

I'm asking this as me and my wife were looking for a short, getaway destination for the sake of putting an end to this neverending visa extension loop once and for all and start living afresh as a Thai citizen by leaving with a Japanese passport and returning with Thai (which I got issued for the first since my teenage year last year).  We just got our int'l vaccine passport but unfortunately it looks increasingly like any hope for leaving Thailand without mandatory quarantine in Thailand if not in destination country too is a pipe dream now.  

And as some of you have suggested, they said they can't just give me an exit stamp on my Japanese passport at Chaeng Wattana just because I have a Thai citizenship.  

The title says it all.  Can one file 90 days report (TM47) at a provincial immigration office outside of your registered home province if you are unable to do so online or by mail?  

Immigration Bureau website says "For other provinces, notify at Immigration Checkpoint in local area where the alien resides."  But if one can do the annual visa extension in the other provinces (so I heard) why not the 90 days report?  

I knew Ajahn Jayasaro was awarded with the citizenship two years ago by HM the King but didn't know about LP Sumedho and the other monk having accepted the offer (or even been offered for that matter).  

I actually don't know who the other Venerable is.  Could that be the Wat Rattanawan abbot Ajahn Nyanadhammo?  ????

You mean without even asking?  ????????

LP Passano and Amaro of Abhayagiri and Amaravati Monasteries who aren't in Thailand also received ecclesiastical titles two years ago.  Were they granted PR too?   

3 hours ago, KhemaKhema said:

The head monk of the province (เจ้าคณะจังหวัด) usually is in close contact with NOB and knows them well.
Applications that have his strong personal support will be contemplated quite different from those made by "unknown" monks.
Your abott should go there and have a chat with him.
To which Nikaya does your monastery belong to, Dhammyut (ธ) or Mahanikay (ม)?

I never asked if it's Dhammayut of Mahanikaya but his temple being one of the branch monasteries of the lineage of renowned and perhaps one of the most revered monks in the north Khruba Siwichai who is well known for a conflict and insubordination to the Sangha Supreme Council in its early days I have no doubt it is Mahanikaya.  The monastery is located in Southern Chiang Mai in the mountainous region only about 20 min from the birth place of Khruba Siwichai.  You might know Khruba Siwichai as a bhikkhu who built one of the most famous tourist spots in Chiang Mai, Wat Phra That Doi Suthep.  

Yes, I also heard the Aussie Venerable has a rough road ahead with his PR application.  But I also recently heard from a Thai supporter that LP Sumedho (the first foreign disciple of LP Chah) who recently returned to Amaravati Monastery in UK where he spent quarter of a century as a founding abbot also have a Thai PR (no surprise but I initially speculated he left Thailand after spending 10 years in his retirement at Wat Pah Rattanawan because of visa issues) and another farang Venerable also at Wat Rattanawan who was granted PR after his 2nd attempt at application.  

The immigration officials suggested that one doesn't necessarily have to have Non-Imm R to remain in robe in Thailand - e.g. he can switch to Non-Imm O (long stay visa) in the event if his Non-Imm R application is denied (that said as a monk, my Ajahn had been a renunciant for the last quarter of a century and it's not sensible to ask the abbot to transfer the temple fund to the bank account in his name).  

It sounds like เจ้าคณะจังหวัด is also a good candidate to ask to write a  recommendation letter for the Japanese Venerable.  I will forward all your information to him.  Sadhu X3.  ????

BTW I also recently got to talk to one Thai monk, a fellow Sangha member of the other Japanese monk of 30+ vassa from Wat Pah Sukato the forest monastery in Chaiyaphum who regularly comes to teach at a Vipassana Center near my home in Bangkok and he happened to be a monk who had provided assistance for visa extension and application to this Japanese Venerable.  All this time I thought this Japanese venerable's visa application after 30 years in Thailand under Non-Imm R was denied but it turned out after 30 vassa he relinquished the idea to further practicing in Thailand turned down his fellow Thai monk's offer to assist him with his 7th application after he returned to Thailand on tourist visa (after he left Thailand when his 6th 5 years-term has ended), probably to concentrate on teaching the Japanese laities which indeed he actively does after resettling in Japan 3 years ago.  

My misunderstanding that he was denied his visa application after 30 years under Non-Imm R visa is actually what prompted me to suggest my Japanese Ajahn to consider PR application in the first place last year and indeed, when I brought this up  at Chaeng Watthana in February the Immigration Officer said while they can't speculate as to why it was denied to this Japanese monk but claimed NOB rarely ever denied issuing ใบรับรอง and as long as it is issued the Immigration Bureau has no reason to turn down the Non-Imm R application no matter how many times it was previously issued to a same applicant.  

I could have asked the Japanese Venerable directly but I never did because I was afraid it would be akin to asking him to reveal his shortcomings, if any - too rude as he doesn't know me.  

I explained that all to my Ajahn in Chiang Mai last month and told him that perhaps PR application isn't only worth the effort and cost but unnecessary at all but his Thai abbot is now keen to do his favor for his deputy and eager to give it a try so I'll let them do as they please from there - why not, some claim being Japanese national alone - an identity generally favorably accepted in Thailand is a great asset and advantage, not to mention there's little competition among 100 quota allocated each year to Japanese applicant - unlike Chinese and Indian nationals who fill up the 100 max quota on the first day of the application (but rarely ever fills up if at all for Japanese).   

21 hours ago, KhemaKhema said:

I think i have to make this more clear:
Your senior monk has NOT " been in Thailand under the same visa for the last 25 years but interrupted and had to be renewed every 5 years.".
This is a very important point!
Once he left Thailand without a re-entry permit his visa was finished.
He then applied for a NEW visa outside of Thailand and has NOT renewed the old one outside of Thailand.
So in terms of immigration he is now in his "3rd extension of the last Non-Imm R issued".
Therefore he needs to bide his time until he can apply for permanent residency.
I remember you were planning to contact Chaeng Watthana, have you made inquirements into the PR process for monks yet?

Correct, but he didn't reapply because he left Thailand without a re−entry permit．

And yes, we did go visit Chaeng Watthana in February and saw the actual application submitted by an Aussie monk, an abbot of a branch monastery of Ajahn Chah's Wat Nongpapong in Phetchabun province.  We were simply impressed, if not blown away by the impressive and neatly compiled supplemental materials submitted with the application (publications, CDs etc. - sort of a portfolio of what the venerable has been doing in Thailand thus far, both for himself as a Dhamma practitioner but also for locals as well as lay people in general) and the dedication of his lay supporters who provided it all - we are simply no match (I got to talk to one of the Thai lay supporters who provided all the supporting materials last month).  They published that in the exact quantity of the committee members who will decide whether or not to grant him the PR - if he doesn't get it, it made me wonder who will.  

If there's anything we can match to this Aussie monk that would probably be recommendation letters, but without recommendations from well-known venerables like Ajahn Jayasaro and LP Liem (Wat Nongpapong abbot who succeeded LP Chah), among others.  Unfortunately, my Japanese Ajahn hasn't done much to teach the Thai general public (e.g. giving Dhamma talks, leading retreats, distributed Dhamma books, provide teachings via online media like YouTube Channel and podcasts like this Aussie venerable has done) - he has been teaching Nak Tham exam preparation to Thai monks of his monastery but not publicly (other than in Japan) and he has been a rather reclusive, solitary practitioner most of his monastic life (a พระกรรมฐาน type if you know what I mean).  

The officer didn't encourage that he applies PR and simply recommended that the monk sticks to lifetime of Non-Imm R extension (easier for farang bikkhus but less so for Japanese).  

I told the Japanese monk that I can no longer recommend him the PR application in good conscience but his Thai abbot now seems keen to give it a try so I recommended them both go visit Chaeng Watthana Immigration themselves to find out more rather than to rely on 2nd hand information (which they plan to do in May, if not hampered by the new surge in caseloads).  The officer there was very open in showing us the Aussie monk's application but not so forthcoming in providing answers to our questions (very vague answers).   
 

21 hours ago, KhemaKhema said:

Regarding your 5 vassa monk:
The NOB is not issueing letters of recommendation "arbitrarily".
If there is a compelling reason they will, if not, they won't.
My recommendation is for your abott to go see the head monk of the province (เจ้าคณะจังหวัด) and explain the situation to him.
The head monk of the province could then talk to NOB Chiang Mai and ask them to consider issueing a letter of recommendation based on the extraordinary circumstances during the international COVID situation.
If they still refuse, i would use the visa amnesty option as long as possible and then, once Thailands borders are open again, apply for a new visa from abroad.

Wow that is nice to know but how do you know that and do you actually know if any monastics had done that and had NOB successfully issued หนังสือรับรอง toward the 6th/11th Non-Imm R extension?  

And yes, the only option left if everything is exhausted (other than to return to Japan) is to apply for 60 days COVID extension at 1,900 Baht each time (a bargain compared to making a round-trip to Japan).  

I've recently talked to one of the lay volunteers of a forest monastery in Nakhon Ratchasima that hosts many foreigners lay people and monastics alike and she told me she just successfully helped a Korean lay person's COVID extension at Nakhon Ratchasima immigration office.  She said this person has been staying in Thailand at her monastery since late 2019 on multiple consecutive extensions of his tourist visa.  And with the recent new surge in clusters in Bangkok and elsewhere in Thailand it is highly likely the Emergency Decree will be extended once again along with 60 days COVID Visa Amnesty.  

OK, the senior monk has been in Thailand under the same visa for the last 25 years but interrupted and had to be renewed every 5 years.  But you get my point.  

Now getting back to my question could it be true that NOB official can arbitrarily issue certification letter for 6th consecutive extension of the Non-Imm R visa at their own discretion against their own written-out guideline?  That's what I've been told the abbot of the monastery where the Japanese monk of 5 vassa is the Sangha member has been told by the NOB official at its Chiang Mai branch.  So it's not a first-hand information and I'm highly skeptical of its veracity.  

His visa is expiring in 3 months and unless the said certification letter is forthcoming his only option is to apply for "visa amnesty" which allows any Non-Imm visa holders whose visa is expiring to legally extend their stay in the kindgom until July 27th if applied by May 29th.  If the emergency decree will be extended again it's likely they will further extend the visa amnesty too for another two months (at 1,900 Baht each time) but that's the only option he has to remain in Thailand legally or to return to Japan at any cost.  

41 minutes ago, KhemaKhema said:

yes, it is possible.
These decisions are made on a highly individual basis.
There is quite a number of foreign monastics who managed to extend their visas to more than what is usually granted.
Usually, there are compelling reasons, like (already mentioned) not having finished ones PALI studies yet, or, abbotship.
According to your information, your senior japanese monk seems to have done it many times already,
but now the officials for some reason seem to have put an end on it.

 
Hi KhemaKhema,  

Yes, that senior Japan monk has done it many times but he had to leave Thailand every 5 years and return to Thailand with tourist visa and reapply Non-Imm R all over again.  He has been in Thailand consecutively for the past 25 years with Non-Imm R visa now but that doesn't mean he had it extended 25 times.  We went to the Immigration Bureau to meet with the official in charge of PR application in February and they pointed out the said monk of 25 vassa isn't eligible for PR application yet until October this year despite the venerable had stayed in Thailand under the same Non-Imm R visa for the past 25 years, but because he hasn't been in Thailand under the renewed Non-Imm R for 3 years yet if you know what I mean (by that, I mean 3rd extension of the last Non-Imm R issued). 

I've recently learned that Chiang Mai branch office of National Office of Buddhism said they're willing to issue "certification letter" (หนังสือรับรอง) toward the sixth year extension of Non-Immigrant R visa against their own rule.  However, this directly contradicts with the confirmation I got over a phone with Phutthamonthon headquarter last year when I inquired with them if they have any provision for extraordinary circumstance like pandemic in the event the foreign monks cannot leave Thailand, to which they replied "certification letter" can be issued for no more than 5 times per Non-Imm R visa for foreign monastics from Buddhist countries no matter what (pandemic or not).  It also contradicts with their own written-out guideline (ระเบียบสำนักงานพระพุทธศาสนาแห่งชาติว่าด้วยการออกหนังสือรับรองให้ต่ออายุวีซ่าแก่ชาวต่างประเทศผู้เข้ามาศึกษาหรือปฏิบัติธรรมทางพระพุทธศาสนาในประเทศไทย พ.ศ. 2546).

National Office of Buddhism is a ministry-independent, department-level government agency that reports directly to the Office of Prime Minister.  And if I understand it correctly, they can't overrule or override their own rule to suit our convenience without making official amendment and announcing it publicly.  It also begs a question why now when it wasn't possible last year.  

Does anyone know if the 6th year extension (or 11th year for farang monastics from western, non-Buddhist countries) is really possible for Non-Immigrant R visa holders?  

Is this for tourists only or any Non-Immigrant Visa holders who cannot extend their visas for whatever the reasons (e.g. not all visas can be extended indefinitely).  

And what if the visa holder's embassy does not issue a letter certifying s/he can't return to their home country?  

This concerns a foreign monastic who cannot extend Non-Imm R visa after 5 years and have to leave Thailand when his visa expires in July.  He can leave and return to Thailand with a fresh new visa but the cost of doing so is prohibitively expensive now for a renunciant monk.  

What card registration is step #1 about? ???????? 

On 11/25/2020 at 10:40 AM, KhemaKhema said:

Now, two steps back, may i offer some reflections suffused with loving-kindness:
It seems you have very good intentions to help the foreign monastics in your monastery with their visa-issues, this is most praiseworthy.
At the moment ,you seem to be in an "action-mode", trying to give help where help may be needed, but maybe not so much or so urgently as you may think.
Also, through your lack of experience in these confusing matters, you may have to develop more patience and equanimity.
In practical terms, you could contact ChaengWatthana, try to get reliable information regarding permanent residency for monks, summarize it up on a document and then just pass it on to the monk quietly.
After that, i would recommend you to let go of the issue for now.
I am sure, when the situation requires it, the monks will happily contact you.

In both worlds
the merit-maker delights.
He delights at the thought,
'I've made merit.'
Having gone to a good destination,
he delights all the more.
Dhammapada verse 18

Heedfulness: the path to the Deathless.
Heedlessness: the path to death.
The heedful do not die.
The heedless are as if already dead.
Dhammapada verse 21

Thanks for all your inputs and sharing of Dhammapada verses + wise words for reflection.  

Yes, you're absolutely right about me in full "action-mode" so much so I almost forgot it's his PR application and his future in Thailand at stake, not mine.  Either way it's already been determined the Venerable will waive this year's application and he has gone into short, two weeks solitary retreat (he calls it กรรมฐาน) in a remote kuti on the monastery ground.  So I'm not in any rush to go to Chaeng Wattana for now but I will definitely do so perhaps after New Year.  

I'm still trying to determine why the other Japanese monk who had spent 30 vassa in Thailand at the better-known and highly respected forest monastery Wat Pah Sukato had his visa denied after 30 extensions, in a hope perhaps he can share some insight as to whether or not we should really pursue the PR application at all next year. That said I don't even know if he knows why his extension was denied.  

On 11/21/2020 at 12:46 PM, KhemaKhema said:

Now things become a bit more clear.
If the 4 Vassa monk is on his 4th extension already (in his 5th year of stay on Non-I R), he will have to leave Thailand once his visa has run out.
As his visa is due in July 2021, frankly, i do not see much reason to start worrying now.
As mentioned before, Malaysia has some good forest monasteries (for example https://sasanarakkha.org), he could comfortably spend the vassa there and in November 2021 try to apply for a new Non-I R Visa either at KualaLumpur or at Penang.

But as I said in previous post, the staff at National Office of Buddhism (Phutthamonthon office) said he DOESN'T have to leave Thailand even on his 5th year so long his Ajahn can write a letter to National Office of Buddhism certifying that the 4 vassa monk is still studying Pali, a prerequisite for National Office of Buddhism in order to issue a "letter of recommendation" which in turn will become necessary for Non-I R extension.  Now I didn't know at the time I call them up that Samnak Phut's letter must be issued every year, not every 5 years so I'm no longer confident if they really understood my concern (that he might have to leave after 5 years) but I did stress 5th year extension over and over and they did say he doesn't have to leave on 5th year or any other year for that matter so long he has a "letter of recommendation" that they're happy to issue provided his Ajahn (preferably an abbot, I assume) can certify he is still studying Dhamma or Pali (Pariyati Tham).  

Either way they have two other Japanese monks at the same monastery (four including 4 yrs and 24 years Venerable) and I don't know when the other two's extension at Chiang Mai Immigration is up, but I'll tell them to go to National Office of Buddhism branch office in Chiang Mai at SalaGlaang and ask them directly when the next monk's annual extension is up.  

Thanks for the link but aside from the question of who will host the 5th year monk as a guest monk while stranded outside Thailand there's a question of who will issue Non-I R visa for him if at all.  Neither Malaysia nor Japan is not faring well in their fight to contain the pandemic and therefore neither of them is considered low-risk countries for Thailand, making both Japanese and Malaysians or anyone residing in either of these countries ineligible even for Thailand's newly launched Special Tourist Visa (SVT).  

https://image.mfa.go.th/mfa/0/n3gTFT2TOE/listed_country_2018_2.pdf

But as you said, we still have three quarters of a year left to worry and anything can happen by the time his 5th extension is up next July.  

On 11/21/2020 at 12:46 PM, KhemaKhema said:

Now, how about taking a step back and try to return to the original subject:
" Permanent Residency or Citizenship for Foreign Monastics in Thailand "
this is something you can start looking into now by contacting Chaeng Watthana.
And again, a personal visit with the monk in question is highly recommended.
State-officials usually act much more responsible to a monks personal visit than to a casual phonecall.
After your visit you will then have a personal contact at Chaeng Watthana too, something that may turn out quite helpful in the future.

I can make a personal trip to Chaeng Watthana as soon as this week, no problem.  But is it really essential for 70 yrs old Venerable to come to Bangkok, bracing 12 hrs overnight trip on Morchit-bound bus just to make an inquiry?  I have all his bio written in Thai with me.  Either way, there's only 5 weeks left until this year's PR application will close and not only are we not ready or even sure if the Venerable is eligible for application under "special category" but he has already made up his mind NOT to pursue it this year and unsure if he's willing to apply at all next year even if the immigration is willing to accept his application under special consideration.  I guess partly because none of this is his idea to begin with but my suggestion and I only made that suggestion last month when I visited his monastery for Kathina during which time he asked me to drive to CM immigration for his Non-I R extension, although I learned during the stay at his monastery that his Thai abbot has sought to apply Thai citizenship for him in the past, which he can't by bypassing PR unless he has a Thai spouse which of course he doesn't.  

And is it true PR application can only be accpeted in Bangkok and not CM or anywhere else?  

And do you know who among many foreign monastics in Thailand is the one continuously in robe without ever leaving Thailand except for occasional home visit (e.g. continuously maintaining Non-IR visa extension)?  You do know many western monks in Ajahn Chah's forest tradition have spent 30 or 40+ years in robe and some even beyond 50 but many such senior monks are now serving as an abbot in branch monasteries in the west.  

And did Ajahn Jayasaro even applied for (or asked for) a citizenship himself when he was granted one by HM the King last year?  

On 11/19/2020 at 10:28 AM, KhemaKhema said:

-what is the exact date of the first extension of that Non-Immigrant R Visa?

Knowing these dates we then can calculate the 5 years allowed to him. (they seem to treat Japan as a buddhist country).
If, as you say, he has 4 Vassa now, it is possible that he is only in his 4th year of stay, then he could extend for 1 more year just like before.
It is perfectly correct that only Pali Studies would qualify for another SPECIAL extension after the regular 5 years of stay , as the 3 levels of NakThamm can be completeted in 3 years. Pali studies take very long to complete.
As you say, there is still a lot of time until the extension is due, the COVID situation is likely to change anyway until then.

How has he managed to stay in Thailand that long? He should be GrandMaster of Visa by now...

His 3rd extension expired either June or July 30th this year and he's already on his 4th extension.  His Non-I R was issued in Thailand after his samanera ordination, not in Japan.  

Monks know about Elite Card too but 500,000 Baht for just one monk is simply out of question for a forest monastery in remote mountainous region where the vast majority of supporting local lay community is ethnic Karen and Shan people (some stateless).  

And it really doesn't matter which country he leaves for after 5 years.  AFAIK Non-I R is not one of those visas Thai diplomatic missions abroad will issue at the moment. 
 

On 11/19/2020 at 10:28 AM, KhemaKhema said:

With all respect, it strikes me as a bit odd that you have:
" a Japanese monk who speaks and writes excellent Thai and is in a leading position in the monastery to teach the sangha of both Thai and foreign monks at his monastery with 24 years in Thailand"
and he can not help his fellow countryman with his visa issues or contact Chaeng Watthana himself....knowledge may be just a phonecall away.
How has he managed to stay in Thailand that long? He should be GrandMaster of Visa by now...

I don't have an explanation for that other than to say he never faced the pandemic in 24 years as a Bhikkhu and this never became a matter of concern to him until recently because it's just a matter of leaving Thailand every 5 years in the past.  Besides, we thought we'd find out when I brought the Venerable to CM immigration to renew his extension last month (24 yrs monk).  Also, I have a friend who was formerly a foreign monastic in Ajahn Chah's lineage for 20 years (10 of which was spent in Thailand) and I offered to help the Venerable by asking him to forward my inquiry to Wat Pah Nanachat where I know there is a resident lay volunteer who handles immigration matters for foreign monastics (so my former monk friend doesn't know much about the intricacies of visa application/extension).  

By the way, the Venerable seems to remember he had the National Office of Buddhism issued "letter of recommendation" to be submitted to immigration every year, not every 5 years.  Is that really the case?  

On 11/17/2020 at 3:48 PM, KhemaKhema said:

Q: Does that mean foreign monastics DO NOT have to leave Thailand to reapply Non-Immigrant R visa any moree?

A: There are 2 things:
1-would be an extension (1year) of an already existing Non-I R Visa, this is done at your local Immigration office, no need to leave the country. Same procedure every year.
2-would be an application for a new Non-I R visa from outside of Thailand.
This means, you are outside of Thailand and do not have a valid visa anymore (and no Re-Entry Permit).
As i have mentioned before, not so easy anymore, but possible.
This will then be a 3-Month Non-I R Visa, it can be extended for 1 year in the usual way starting 45 days before it runs out.
Let's drop the term "reapplication, it may be a bit confusing.

Q:And if they still have to leave to reapply at overseas consulate, is the requirement waived during this time of pandemic and international travel restrictions? As you might know Non-Imm R is not one of those visas Thai consulates overseas will issue to foreign nationals at this time.

A: not that i am aware of. Returning to Thailand may be very difficult at the moment for monks.
As the monk in question has only 4 extensions yet, an extension inside the country should not be an issue.

Q:I'm a bit confused but it's not the National Office of Buddhism but the Ministry of Culture, Department of Religious Affairs that mandates foreign monastics leave Thailand every 5 years and reapply? สำนักงานพระพุทธศาสนาแห่งชาติ is National Office of Buddhism, not Department of Religious Affairs (Ministry of Culture). It's a ministry-independent government agency in Phutthamonthon.

A: They do not make them leave and reapply. Only leave. One may reapply then, the outcome is not sure. It varies from Embassy to Embassy. And Government to Government. And....

Q: The monk in question has been in Thailand for over 4 years. His visa is up for extension/reapplication next July so we still have time.

A: At the beginning of your post you have mentioned only 1 monk who has recently turned 70 years old and wants to apply for pemanent residency.
Now you do mention another one...?
May i ask, what is it with the 4 year monk?
He should be able to extend his visa without problems in Chiang Mai.

Q: Also when you said 4 or 9 extensions, do you mean that to be the maximum number of times Department of Religious Affairs allows foreign monks to stay in Thailand (max 20 years for monks from Buddhist countries such as Japan and 90 years for non-Buddhist countries?).

A: It means 5 years of stay for monks and novices from countries considered buddhist (that is 4x1 year extensions).
and
10 years of stay for monks and novices from countries considered non-buddhist (that is 9x1 year extensions).
Under which category Japan is treated, i can not say.
There is a list at the สำนักงานพระพุทธศาสนาแห่งชาติ available.

The Japanese monk (deputy abbot) in the same monastery (one the abbot is considering applying PR for) has been in Thailand as a monastic for 24 years now and I went to Chiang Mai Immigration with him last month for his latest extension.

However, I know other Japanese monk who's ordained at another forest monastery 32 years ago and can no longer apply for his extension and returned to Japan two years ago. He's still in robe, but practicing and teaching far from his home monastery and Sangha in a country where Theravada Buddhism has little and less foothold than in the west, not to mention there's little supporting lay community there albeit a Buddhist country. He can now visit his home monastery in Thailand only as a tourist.

A: It should be possible for him to get a Non I R Visa too.
However, as he is only visiting, a tourist visa or a visa exempt stamp is much less hassle.

May i ask you, where do you come in? Are you a lay supporter of the monastery?
For the permanent residency, in my opinion the best thing to do, would be to travel to Bangkok together with the monk in question and ask in person at Chaeng Watthana.
Ajahn Jayasaro (now Pra ThepPatcharaNanaMuni) has been granted citizenship through a royal grant from the king himself.
I am not sure whether Ajahn Kevali can help you, these cases of permanent residency are usually judged very individually at immigration.
The very few monks i know who managed to get a permanent residency, they all had to be very patient and enduring, even more so their lay caretakers.
So , again, consider a trip to Bangkok together with the Venerable and ask in person at
Chaeng Watthana.

Sorry for the confusion but the PR application and 5th year visa extension concern two different monks at the same monastery.  One a 70 years old with 24 rains and the other perhaps half that age with only 4 rains in robe.  

And I am an occasional lay supporter/volunteer far from the monastery in Bangkok.  

As to the 5th year extension of Non-I R Visa, I called up the National Office of Buddhism (สำนักงานพระพุทธศาสนาแห่งชาติ) today and asked my questions directly to "Foreign Relations Office".  

Their reply is that unless the monk in question is not certified in a letter issued by "สำนักเรียน" that they are still studying Dhamma they have to leave Thailand COVID or not and reapply Non-I R Visa overseas if they still wish to remain in robe in Thailand after 5th year.  Now what constitutes สำนักเรียน is little sketchy and wasn't entirely clear to me no matter how many times I demanded the clarification.  I told them monasteries in Thailand especially monasteries in forest and mountain settings don't have annex educational institution on temple grounds like Wat Mahathat, but it appears so long the monks are still learning whether or not they're enrolled on any curricular programs, that would be sufficient to be qualified for 5th year extension if the abbot or a senior monk in leading position (ajahn) can verify that in writing.  And by that they seem to emphasize academic pursuit (ปริยัติธรรม).  I took that to be studying of Pali Canon.  

Doing what any Thai village monks routinely do on daily basis like morning alms round, morning and evening chanting, daily meditation and thudong or attending Uposatha on observance day does not quality for National Office of Buddhism to issue a document necessarily for 5th year extension, so I was told.  

Also, whether or not the monk has taken and passed Nak Tham exam does not seem to be taken into consideration toward 5th year visa application.

We still have a lot of time until July next year so I guess I'll go visit their office in Phutthamonthon and ask for further clarification next time I happen to visit a nearby monastery วัดญาณเวศกวัน where I visit occasionally.  

BTW is it true PR application can only submitted at Chaeng Wathana?  

32 minutes ago, connda said:

This is not unheard of as I know of Western monastics who are Thai citizens.

I suggest contacting the abbot of Wat Pa Nanachat monastery who could probably provide you with information regarding Western monks who ordained decades ago and still reside in Thailand with Thai citizenship status.

Ajahn Kevali - Abbot
Wat Pah Nanachat
Bahn Bung Wai
Ampher Warin Chamrab
Ubon Rachathani 34310
Thailand

I've met Ajahn Kevali both at his monastery and last week at Wat Pah Rattanawan but I haven't heard he has a citizenship or PR, though I know an Australian monk from the same Ajahn Chah's lineage is in the process of applying for PR and another famous monk Ajahn Jayasaro (British) was granted Thai citizenship last year.  But I don't know if he has even applied for it.  

Yes, WPN is a good place to ask but I don't know how to ask other than to travel to Ubon and show up at its doorstep. 

WPN being a well-known, well-funded and well-supported monastery they have a resident lay supporter and secretary to look after all the administrative affairs for foreign monastics.  And I don't know who that person is or how to get in touch with him.  

1 hour ago, KhemaKhema said:

Limitation of extensions is set by the Ministry of Religious Affairs สำนักงานพระพุทธศาสนาแห่งชาติ , not Immigration.
Currently, it is:
5 years of visa for monks and novices from buddhist countries (4 extensions).
and
10 years of visa for monks and novices from non-buddhist countries (9 extensions).

In the past it has been possible to reset the process by leaving the country (without Re-Entry permit)
and applying for a brand new visa from abroad.
The process for applying for a visa abroad for foreign monastics has recently changed, embassies and consulates abroad are no longer able to issue a Non-Immigrant R visa on their own, they now need an ok from Thailand. that means, ones future home monastery in Thailand has to start the process here.
It is quite similar to the process of applying for an extension inside the country, ie, getting the signatures from the DjauKanaTambol, Djau KanaAmphoe, DjauKanaDjangwat (form: Prawat ประวัติ) and then asking for a letter of recommendation at the Ministry of Religious Affairs (in Chiang Mai 4th floor SalaGlaangDjangwat), etc.
How long is your japanese monk now here for already?

Thanks for clarification KhemaKhema.  

Does that mean foreign monastics DO NOT have to leave Thailand to reapply Non-Immigrant R visa any moree?  

And if they still have to leave to reapply at overseas consulate, is the requirement waived during this time of pandemic and international travel restrictions?  As you might know Non-Imm R is not one of those visas Thai consulates overseas will issue to foreign nationals at this time.  

I'm a bit confused but it's not the National Office of Buddhism but the Ministry of Culture, Department of Religious Affairs that mandates foreign monastics leave Thailand every 5 years and reapply?  สำนักงานพระพุทธศาสนาแห่งชาติ is National Office of Buddhism, not Department of Religious Affairs (Ministry of Culture).  It's a ministry-independent government agency in Phutthamonthon.  

The monk in question has been here for over 4 years.  His visa is up for extension/reapplication next July so we still have time.  

Also when you said 4 or 9 extensions, do you mean that to be the maximum number of times Department of Religious Affairs allows foreign monks to stay in Thailand (max 20 years for monks from Buddhist countries such as Japan and 90 years for non-Buddhist countries?).  

The Japanese monk (deputy abbot) in the same monastery (one the abbot is considering applying PR for) has been in Thailand as a monastic for 24 years now and I went to Chiang Mai Immigration with him last month for his latest extension.  

However, I know other Japanese monk who's ordained at another forest monastery 32 years ago and can no longer apply for his extension and returned to Japan two years ago.  He's still in robe, but practicing and teaching far from his home monastery and Sangha in a country where Theravada Buddhism has little and less foothold than in the west, not to mention there's little supporting lay community there albeit a Buddhist country.  He can now visit his home monastery in Thailand only as a tourist.  

On 11/15/2020 at 11:36 AM, jackdd said:

Afaik it's not possible in his case

AFAIK it's not unprecedented.  

I'll go to Chaeng Watthana next week to find out, thanks ubonjoe.  

I hear they usually accept application around December.  How do I know the date for this year's application and when the closing date is?  Do they make announcement anywhere online or should I go to Chaeng Watthana to find out?  

A bit off-topic question - I hear foreign monks have to leave Thailand and reapply Non-Imm R after five years in Thailand (reapplication or extension, I'm not entirely sure) - not a requirement imposed by immigration bureau but สำนักงานพระพุทธศาสนาแห่งชาติ (National Office of Buddhism) does not issue documents necessarily for extension of visa if monks don't leave, so I heard. 

Do you happen to know if this policy is still enforced at the time of pandemic and international travel restriction?  One of the foreign monks at the monastery will have to extend his visa for the 6th time next year and he's concerned he can not return to Thailand once he leaves.  We discussed this at immigration office in Chiang Mai last month and the officials there said there's no such requirement as far as immigration bureau is concerned.  But Nepalese monks we met there and other monks at the same monastery all said they had to leave after 5 years.  

On 11/15/2020 at 11:44 AM, ubonjoe said:

As far as I know there is no special category for monks to apply for permanent residency or Thai nationality.

For permanent residency there is this category in a old doucment for permanent residency.

It think the same fee for the residence certificate would be needed.

Immigration in Bangkok may be the only place that can answer you questions about residency.

Hi Ubonjoe.  The abbot of the monastery was formerly an airman from Don Mueang air base in lay life. Couple of years ago the Air Marshal Chief of the Royal Air Force was the sponsor of Kathina at the monastery.  The abbot also claims to know the governor of Chiang Mai.  Any idea what the chance is for the application to be accepted if they can endorse or write letter of recommendation for the monk?  

Also by "immigration in Bangkok" do you mean Chaeng Watthana?