chiangrai57020

For you that are complaining about the recent changes to the visa rules and regulations, YOU only have yourself to blame! For over 20 years the rules and regulations pertaining to visa's did not change, or changes were so minor that we did not notice them. Then, 2001 arrives and we have seen constant change in these rules and regulations. Why is that?

When I found ThaiVisa several years ago I thought that this would be my one source for information regarding the many types of visa's, documentation required, monetary considerations, etc. However, as the years went by I found that reading ThaiVisa became a confusing and contradictory mess on 'Visa Rules and Regulations'!

I originally assumed (Yes! I know.) that ThaiVisa would provide the 'official' Thai government visa rules and regulations - which they did and continue to do. BUT that is where the confusion begins! By allowing all the 'expert' (Tom, Dick and Harry's) TV members to present their individual comments about rules and regulations that are not under their control to change; by allowing TV members to 'explain' how they have circumvented the various rules and regulations; by allowing TV members to post their individual likes and dislikes; etc., ThaiVisa 'opened the door' to all the changes that we see today. Do YOU think WE are the only ones that read these postings?

What I find disturbing is that all the 'New' rules and regulations seem to apply only to the Western-European(Caucasian) population of Thailand.

Example: Many months ago I was at the immigration office to gather information. In walks a Chinese gentleman who hands over his passport. He is handed a single form which he enters the required information and hands the form back to the immigration officer. Within 5 minutes he hands over 500 baht, his passport is stamped and returned to him. There was a Thai woman with him. I asked what he was doing. Applying for his 1 year extension she says.

Is this the standard practice or procedure for all non-Caucasians residing in Thailand?

Could it be that OUR collective Western-European(Caucasian)'WE or ME' 'attitude' and 'OUR' collective 'expertise' have created all of 'OUR' own problems with new regulations and new rules by the Thai Immigration department! Many TV members over the years of ThaiVisa's existence, have had their say regarding anything and everything remotely pertinent to Thailand and Thai laws - especially, visa laws/rules. Ever consider that 'EVERY' posting to ThaiVisa is read by Thai officials at many levels of government? Ever consider that we may well be despised by these officials because of our perceived 'expertise' about everything and anything. Ever consider that 'what you say' is affecting ALL of us that have retired or wish to live in Thailand? Ever consider, as far fetched as this may seem (or is it!), that ThaiVisa was set-up by officials of the Thai government?

As has been pointed out many times, we are 'guest' in Thailand and must respect the rule of law of Thailand. If Thailand feels that it is necessary to change rules and laws regarding 'visas', that is their right. Whether 'WE' like the new rules and regulations is not for us to say. WE all want to be made aware of new rules and regulations - BUT we 'should not be writing' these new rules and regulations. By 'OUR' suggestive comments and 'OUR' expressed desire to find ways around the visa rules, 'WE' are collectively writing the new visa rules and regulations. What is the answer? Try keeping 'OUR' collective mouth shut! 'Stop shooting ourselves in the foot' - sooner or later it will start to hurt.

I hope that Admin and George will read this in a positive way. Did ThaiVisa inadvertently 'opened a can of worms' by allowing people to post their comments regarding the Thai visa rules and regulations?

This section of ThaiVisa should only be a closed forum and only used to provide 'official' information regarding 'Visa rules and regulations;' 'blocking all comments' regarding these rules. I firmly believe that the new rules and regulations of the recent past are the direct result of comments made in ThaiVisa. And, allow no comments regarding visa rules and regulations in any other sub-forums.

Not allowing comments regarding Thailand visa rules and regulations would defeat the purpose of ThaiVisa! Not at all. "Official' Thai Rules and Regulations should/must be posted so that we are all made aware of changes (BUT no comments - Please!). There are many other sub-forums that have information that is unique to Thailand and very informative.

You weren't exactly straight with us there Mr. chiangrai57020.

In your post you wrote" Spouse".In the dictionary(and I just looked it up)the definition of spouse is"A person's partner in marriage".

Now you come out with,that 5yrs. ago you had a village traditional marriage.Which equals to shacking up,except it's got the Mysterious Asian Twist.

I am now sorry that I even bothered the manager at Bangkok Bank with this nonsense.

Mellow1: I originally was not going to respond to your comment but I reached my boiling point.

There are a lot of 'ignorant' posters like yourself that have driven away a lot of the 'more intelligent' posters because of responses like yours. I for one do not like posting or responding to comments in TV anymore because of the stupidity (IMO) of some posters and have avoided doing so for quite sometime.

It is apparent that you have no knowledge of Thailand or Thai culture. The fact is that most people’s opinions on anything, it doesn’t matter what it is, come from preconceived notions and not from real research. Research is hard. Preconceived notions are what they are: One person’s opinion based on what they know or feel and often times not based on the facts.

Let me provide you with a little education. In Thailand there are 'generally' two marriage ceremonies. (One) which is referred to by many names as a 'traditional village ceremony'. It is completely and legitimately recognized by family, friends, relatives, etc. of the (man and woman) bride and groom. It is not a 'shack-up job' as you so ignorantly put it! (Two). In order for the marriage to be 'official' in the eyes of the Thai government, the marriage must be 'registered' at the local Ampur (District Office). This has nothing to do with 'legitimizing' the marriage. There are many marriages in Thailand between Thai men and woman that 'Are NOT' registered!

Now then, in order for a marriage to be registered (one) of the parties MUST be a Thai citizen. In my case (which is not any of your business!) my wife has lived in Thailand for all but 6 years. She is a 'Refugee!' As a 'Refugee' in Thailand, a Refugee has no rights and NO Thai citizenship. AND I am not going to go into the ridiculous procedures it takes for a Refugee to become a Thai citizen. I've been there and done that!

My wife (spouse) is just like every other 'foreigner' in Thailand. She cannot own land, she cannot get a passport (unlike most 'foreigners'), she cannot get a visa to any country, she is 'stuck' in Thailand.

Now then, to further your education, there are some Refugee's that cannot leave the confines of there village/Ampur. To do so CAN result in immediate deportation or jail time. There are 'some' Refugee's that can obtain 'permission' to travel out of their village/Ampur for a short period of time. And then there are other Refugee's that are able to obtain ID cards or a 'dummy' passport (for lack of a better description) that allows them to travel anywhere in Thailand for any length of time. With this 'dummy' passport they can also travel to 'selected' countries.

In the future, please 'think' before you open your big mouth. It might also be advisable to do a little research before 'putting your foot in your mouth again.'

Highdiver/mellow1: Correct again! "If it smells like a fish, It must be a fish." I have only related what was told to me - That is why I became and continue to be worried. The 2 stories may or may not be true! BUT, Why would my 2 banks specifically state that there is only 'ONE owner' of an account?

Legally - A non-Thai female CANNOT register her marriage in Thailand. Therefore the marriage is not recognized in Thailand. We had a 'village, traditional marriage ceremony over 5 years ago.

I did go back to the bank today for further explanation. Again I was told - "Only One Owner" to an account - Primary signatory. The other person or persons (owners) named on the account can withdraw/transfer funds if Primary is alive but it is up to the bank as to what happens to the funds when Primary dies. From what I understood, because the wife and I are NOT married (?) she will not be permitted to have access to the account after I am gone. YES, the funds are Frozen. A 'Will' would have to be probated before funds would be released to her. BUT, as said, the relatives could step in and demand a pay-off!

The Skipper/wolfmanjack: I like your ideas regarding a trust or USA bank account in her name. The trust could be somewhat complicated! The USA bank account seems to be the easiest which could be used to make a monthly 'wire transfer' from her USA account to her Thailand account. I like this method and will set it up when I get back to the USA. Don't know if anyone has knowledge BUT another question - Can a non-USA citizen open a USA account? Goes without saying that I will confirm this.

I will also consider doing 'wire transfers' from my USA account directly to her 'owner' account in Thailand. Any money left in the 'Joint Account' will be so small that she will not have to worry about it BUT could use the ATM method - she has my ATM card.

For the positive posters - Thank you very much for your help. It is very much appreciated.

sorry guys but this sound like an urban legend..

thai banking laws are very well defined and the comercial bank can not give your funds to anyone. the comercial banks are very carfull about this isuue.

and the poo yai ban and others can not jsut step ito the bank and confiscate funds.

any confescation of the funds can only be made through a court order.

on the contrary to most Farrang legends... thailand has laws and they are enforced.

if they were married. then under Thai Civil legal provisions governing inheritance she is entitled to the funds.

if they were only married in the temple but not registered then she needs to press a claim through the court with facts that they have been living together and then the court will rule her to be the sucessor.

Very good comment. I will pass this on to the 2 people that I know of that got 'shafted' and see what they have to say.

Have you ever been involved in a civil court case in Thailand? I have - and won - BUT the lawyer produced and presented to the court so much BS that the case didn't even come close to the FACTS. Through an interpreter I was asked many questions BUT never had the chance to reply - (to the majority of the questions) the interpreter did it for me.

So, please do not tell me that there are laws that will protected the less fortunate or undereducated. Whoever has the RIGHT lawyer will win and the poor sod that should be the winner is out in the cold - so to speak.

Secondly, if you read the original statement, my wife IS NOT a Thai citizen. This basicly means that she HAS NO RIGHTS. The reason I left Thailand is because of the way she was treated by the 'government' employees at the Ampur and Chiangwad level. After 4 years of 'KISSING ARSE' I just could not take it anymore. Letters (again, Arse Kissing) to the Interior Minster himself resulted in ZERO replies. If you have any idea what it takes to get Thai citizenship in this country then you might have an ingling as to why I sound so bitter. 'They' bend and present 'their' own rules!

So, I have no respect for Thai laws or made on the spot 'government' rules.

I am trying to find a way, other than a Thai bank account, to protect my wife's current and future monetary assets. I DO NOT trust a Thai bank to abide by their rules or 'government' laws.

I have considered doing 'wire transfers' directly into her bank account so that she would have PROOF that the funds came from legit sources. But I still worry that 'her' relatives may turn on her if they determine that she is of means and want some for themselves.

It is not my intension to start a 'battle' of words. If people will learn to stick to the 'Topic' instead of trying to read into the topic what is not there, we would all be better off.

There is nobody on this 'board' that has any idea what I have gone through or put up with for the 4-5 years that I was living in Thailand. So, please, stick to the topic.

How to protect my wife's monetary assets from being 'stolen' by a bank, 'relatives' or 'government' agency.

Thank you - SINCERELY - for any advise.

I am still leaving Thailand in a week - visa expires - so I would really appreciate some good advice on the subject presented.

If you have a joint account and either person can sign what is stopping the surviving spouse from withdrawing all of the money before the bank finds out the deceased is dead ? I don't think any one runs around telling all he banks of all the deaths and they do not have an obituary in the paper here. Not that I have seen anyway.

Good point which I have stated to the spouse many times in the past. The problem that I see, and worries me, is the fact that in Thailand 'whoever' (government, banks, etc.) may ask the question - Where did all your money come from? Your not employed and have no source of income? Although the wife has been married to me for many years and I have supported her all these years, it worries me that 'they' can confiscate 'her' funds for no apparent reason.

Other posters have commented that I should keep my funds 'off-shore'. I do. I now live in the USA and return to Thailand every 3 months or so to visit the wife. (It is a long story - she is not a Thai citizen although has lived in Thailand most of her life; cannot get a Thai passport, therefore no visa to travel; after 4 years of battling the Thai government over this issue I felt I had to leave Thailand or end up 'dead'; I got worn out).

Back on topic. I want to leave my money when I pass on to my wife (I am 69) but it worries me that the Thai government/banks/etc. can pretty much do as they please with, apparently, no recourse for the victim! I want my wife to be secure in knowing that she can live off the money I leave her without, she in turn, having to worry that some 'agency' will 'steal' her money.

I am at a total loss as to how to protect 'her' funds!

I will have to leave Thailand in a week and want to try and get this problem resolved.

Thanks for any input that the posters can provide.

Personal: Several years ago I open a 'Joint Bank Account' at TMB and Krung Thai Bank with me as the 'Primary' and the spouse as the 'Secondary' owner of the accounts. Signature cards were set up accordingly and both bank books list our names. In addition I had the spouse open individual accounts at both banks in her name only. I told myself that everything is just fine - no worries - UNTIL…….

The spouse arrives home a few days ago from a visit to her village. The wife tells me that a woman in the village just lost all her funds. The story goes - this woman had been married to a Canadian for many years. During those years the Canadian transferred a substantial amount to his spouses individual account. The Canadian past away. The relatives of the spouse apparently were upset that the woman had a lot of money but would not share the money. The relatives went to the 'poo yai baan' and complained (?). Short ending - the government/police/whoever went to the woman's bank and confiscated all her funds. Apparently the government (?) decided that this woman's funds were the result of 'dealing in drugs'. Although the woman was not arrested (?) the funds disappeared.

So my spouse decided that she wanted to transfer all her funds to our joint account. I tried to explain to her that it was not necessary as she could prove where the money came from - copies of our joint account and transfers. She insisted that she wanted to transfer her funds. Well, why not, I thought. We have a joint account and she could always get funds from our account. Then the BOMB-SHELL dropped------

She proceeds to tell me that when we opened the joint account several years ago that the bank clerk told her that if I were to pass away before her that 'IT WOULD BE UPTO THE BANK WHETHER SHE WOULD GET THE FUNDS IN OUR JOINT ACCOUNT!!! I could not believe this!

With the spouse in tow, I went to TMB and asked them specifically - If I were to die tomorrow, Will the spouse whose name is on the account get the funds in the account? Quote from the Bank Manager - "It is upto the bank as to whether the funds will be released!" Further goes on to state "that in Thailand there can only be 'one owner' of the account (Primary)." Where does the money go if the bank cannot give the funds to my spouse, I ask. "We keep the money." What if I have a will - "If the court directs the funds to be transferred AND the funds are STILL IN THE ACCOUNT(?) then we can transfer them BUT NOT GIVE HER THE FUNDS. MUST be transferred to an account with the bank."

Off to Krung Thai Bank with the spouse in tow. Same questions and same basic answers.

Q. Is this for real?

Q. What are the alternatives to protect the funds and her money? (Coffee cans stuffed with Baht and buried in the back yard)

Q. Has anyone else checked into the 'single ownership' rule?

Q. Is this a 'local bank' rule?

Q. Can the local 'government' and 'banks' make their own rules/laws as to what belongs legally to a spouse?

Q. How is a spouse to defend herself if the 'authorities' decide that the funds in her account are from 'devious' means?

I am in a total dilemma as to how to protect the spouse and her funds if I were to die tomorrow!

Any suggestions?

According to the latest news, Taksins 20 plus bank accounts were frozen by the 'Government(?)'. Were the 'Banks' provided with 'Legal documentation' to freeze those accounts? Or were they frozen because the 'Government' said to freeze them?

Have to wonder! Now I can understand why Taksin has his money in many different peoples names!

TIT

2 days ago I met a man from the USA who had just moved into the neighborhood. In talking to him I learned that his wife of many years had past away from cancer 2 years ago. He also informed me that he had to hire a lawyer to get his money that was in his wife's account. In addition, he had spent over 5 million on house, land, etc. that the wife's relatives 'stole' from him. 'Kicked him out'! The lawyer had already been paid over 100,000 baht and wasn't doing anything for him. The former wife's account had been cleaned out by the relatives - leaving him with nothing (Banks!!!!). The story goes on, but basically, he has know legal recourse of getting what is his just due.

EXTRACT FROM THE NATION, JULY 19, 2006 THAI CHILDREN'S IQ AVERAGE LOW

The average intelligence quotient (IQ) of Thai children, somewhere between 87 and 88 points, remains in the "low average" category when ranked internationally, Vice Minister for Education Watchara Phanchet said on Wednesday.

He said this at a seminar on how to make children smart, and cited a survey conducted in 2002 as the source of his information.

"We have to develop children both intellectually and physically because they are our country's future," Watchara said.

He was speaking to more than 800 educators, health professionals, parents and representatives of a network for disadvantaged children at the seminar held by the Mental Health Department's Rajanukul Institute.

The 2002 survey found that only 80 per cent of children under five years old had normal visual, muscular and touchperception development, he said. It also found that the average IQ of children between six and 12 was 87 points.

The average IQ for children between 13 and 18 was 88 IQ points, the study found.

In a 2001 survey, children from six to 12 were found to have low levels of patience, discipline, concentration and selfreliance, while those between 13 and 18 had insufficient creativity, analytical ability, conscience, problemsolving skills and emotional control.

Watchara said these problems were the result of parents leaving teachers in charge of their children's development. Teachers are not trained to maximise children's potential at the right age, he said.

"We plan to raise Thai children's [average] IQ to at least 100 by 2008," he said.

Mental Health Department chief ML Somchai Chakraphan said those with IQs in the 70 to 79 point range were in a borderline group as an IQ below 70 points signalled mental disability.

<span style='color:blue'>Just out of curiosity, how many males out there have managed to acquire Thai citizenship? Also has your lives really been changed to since you got it? I know that foreign women married to Thais, can technically get citizenship, and I have come across one or two. Though I have yet to come across a foreign male who has Thai citizenship, even though they may have been married and living here for over 20 years.</span>

The following MAY help:

Mirror Art Group

ATTN: Parisudha Sudhamongkala

106 Moo 1 Ban Huay Khom

T. Mae Yao, A. Muang

Chiang Rai 57100 THAILAND

+66 53 737 412 E-mail ; [email protected]

Department of Provincial Administration (DOPA) (OrBorJor)

Thai citizenship procedure

I’m thinking of applying for Thai citizenship and I have read that it is theoretically possible. But I’ve also heard from a couple of people that applications are never approved, so it is in fact impossible to get Thai citizenship. Is that so?

Thursday, October 28, 2004 Henrik, Chalong.

"To qualify to apply for Thai citizenship, the applicant must meet the following criteria:

He or she must be 18 years old or older and also have reached legal majority in his or her country of origin.

He or she must be of good behavior and background. The following will be checked: criminal record; political background; involvement with illegal drugs and, in the case of Vietnamese applicants, personal behavior.

If working in Thailand, he or she must have an income of at least 80,000 baht a month or have paid taxes in the year the citizenship application is made of 100,000 baht or more.

If living in Thailand for "reasons of humanity" such as being marriage with a Thai people or having a Thai-born child or having graduated from a university in Thailand, he or she must have an income of at least 30,000 baht a month and be able to prove that he or she has paid taxes in Thailand for at least three years.

He or she must have lived in Thailand contunously for at least five years before applying.

The applicant must know the Thai language, including speaking, listening and understand, be able to sing the National Anthem and Sanserm Phra Baramee and pass an interview in Thai with government officers.

Points are awarded to applicants on the following basis: Age and education, 25 points; Occupation, 35 points; Length of residence in Thailand, 10 points; Relationship with Thai people and Thailand, 10 points; Thai language knowledge, 10 points; Personality, 10 points.

Applicants must score a total of at least 50 points in order to qualify for consideration. They must also have two guarantors of their behavior and assets. These guarantors must not be relatives.

Documents applicants must supply are;

Five copies of passport

Five copies of documents verifiying address in Thailand

Five copies of work permit

Five copies of house registration

Five copies of marriage registration (translated into Thai)

Two copies each of ID cards and house registrations of two people who guarantee the applicant’s behavior and assets.

Copy of birth certification, ID card or passport of a wife or husband and children, if any. If the applicant has changed names or surnames, documents relating to these must also be provided.

Documents showing income tax paid over the past three years.

In the case of applicant being a director or partner in a limitewd liability company or partnership, documents verifying that company taxes have been paid for three years.

Two copies each of company or partnership registration, licenses, lists of shareholders, value-added taxes and other related documents of the organization the applicant works at.

Two documents verifying occupation from the organization where he or she works. Salary and position of the applicant must be stated, and the documents must be signed by an authorized person in that organization.

Two documents verifying the applicant’s educational background and those of his or her children, if any.

A document verifying bank accounts, and showing they contain a minimum of 80,000 baht.

A document verifying donations to charity. These should total not less than 5,000 baht and the money must have been donated a long time ago – not just a time to support the citizenship application.

A dozen photographs, 2.5x2.5 inches in size, showing the applicant dressed politely.

A document verifying that the applicant has reaches majority according to the laws in his or her country of origin.

Applicants must present all original documents in person, along with an application fee of 5,000 baht fee. Bangkok-resident applicants should go to the Nationalization Office, Special Branch, Royal Thai Police, the 5th building, Phraram 1 Rd, Kwang Bangmai, Pathumwan Bangkok.

Residents outside Bangkok should apply to the Provincial Police.

Documents will be sent to the relevant authorities for checking. The officers will present those documents to higher ranking officers.

The Interior Minister is the final authority for the decision. There is no exact timetable for consideration – it depends on the length of the checking process.

Last year 48 people applied for Thai nationality. Ten received approval from the Minister of Interior. "

Thursday, October 28, 2004 Pol Lt Col Somdej Khanthawong, Special Branch, Royal Thai Police, Bangkok

I see from the above postings that I received exactly the responses I thought that I would get. Some positive and some negative.

Some of the 'posters' completely missed the point! So, I'll try and restate the point.

Land prices have risen to the point that the 'average' Thai cannot afford to sell, purchase or build a home. Who benefited from the 2,000% (or more) increase in land prices? The 'average' Thai citizen? Who are the 'average' Thai citizen? The population of Thailand is approximately 66 million, give or take. The approximate population of Bangkok is - let's say - 8 million. Now take the 'resort' area's of Thailand and estimate another 4 million. So, what is left - 54 million! And who are these 54 million - villagers, city folk, farmers, unskilled laborers, etc.

Now back to the original point - The 'average', undereducated and uneducated Thai from the small towns, villages, etc. did not benefit from the sale of their land. These people, in many cases, had no choice but to sell their land so that their children could go to school, get out of debt, purchase equipment to make their life a little easier, to buy seed for their next crop, to buy fruit trees so that in years to come they may be able to live a decent life, etc. I could go on and on. So who benefited from the sale of land at 'rock bottom' prices? Who is in a position to know when a 'poor farmer' is in desperate need for money? The governmental elite's. And through GREED, THEIVERY, and CORRUPTION these 'elite's' take pity on the poor farmer, and others, to bail them out. Now then, if I am one of these 'elite's' and fairly well off, I do not have to sell this land I just 'stole'. I can wait and sell it to some 'stupid foreigner'! This might also be 'news' to some of you - and it is only a WAG (Wild Arse Guess) - many 'country' Thai cannot read or write the Thai language (maybe as high as 20%)! I have personally lived in 12 villages beginning as far back as 1967. There are far too many Thai's that only have a 3rd grade education. 'Farming' was more important. As a matter of fact, many children today have to quit school to help the family and are deprived of an education. Some of you are so blind that all you see is Bangkok, Phuket, Pattaya, CM, etc. As the title of this tirade states - Wake Up!

Some of you have stated that many Thai's have moved from the 'country' to Bangkok for a better life! In my original post, I stated that some 'foreigners' have blindfolds on. If you actually believe that the 'country' Thai's moved to Bangkok for a better life - you have 'blinders on'. If you believe that Thai's working in Bangkok (or any other city of size), living and sharing a one room apartment with several other workers is a better life, then you are stupid. I have relatives living and working in Bangkok for 130 baht per day with 5 people living in one room (that's sleeping, cooking, doing homework, etc. - with an outdoor shared toilet/shower)! For you that say this is an improvement from their previous why of life - I say 'nuts to you'! These people have 'no choice'. There are no jobs in the 'country'. And they are not happy living in Bangkok. There are 'millions' living in Bangkok exactly like this. So get your head out of the sand!

Some of you have the uncanny ability to be able to read my mind! So, another point that was completely missed or over-looked was my point about the Thai elite's, literally and figuratively, taking advantage of the undereducated and uneducated 'country' Thai citizens. I hate these governmental types that profess how well they are taking care of 'their' citizens. 30 baht medical plan! Do you know how long a person has to sit in a waiting room to get this 'great' service? Do you know that you may have to sit for over 8 hours to be told that the doctor cannot take any more patients? Because some of you are so knowledgeable about Thailand, name some other benefits that the government has provided to these 66 million people (I forgot to deduct the approximately 4 million elite's - MY asinine WAG - 'guess')? I 'pity' these 62 million, give or take, Thai people that have no recourse but to accept what is 'dished out' to them by a government that only think of themselves. Get my point - It's not the people - It's the (can't use profanity)!!!!!

Why do I say that the 60s, 70s, and 80s were better for the Thai people, in general? Some of you write about all the wonderful improvements that the people enjoy today. Yup, huge increase in deaths from motorcycles, drunk drivers, gun-shot wounds, assassinations, lack of 'proper' health care and a 'system' that does not hold doctor's accountable, etc. - Do you want me to go on? Oh, and the 'average' Thai cannot afford all the outstanding improvements that some of you mention. During the periods I mentioned above, the average Thai actually enjoyed life and were always happy. 'Free' roaming movies right to the doorstep of the village, 'free' health care, no fear of being robbed, 'free' county fairs, 'free' rice if you were poor and had none, 'free' transportation to the market, etc. And the education system was 'lousy' just as it is today. Do you want me to go on? The average wage was 20 baht per day (1967) vis today, 130 baht per day. My math is terrible but I would guess that is 2,000% increase!

And for my final 'tirade'. You people that have only negative 'one liners' are the undereducated or uneducated 'foreigners' that I tried to get the message to in my original post. If all you have is 'one liners' then you may need some further education. And, if you have 'never lived' in Thailand, again, you do not no what you are talking about - in other words, you 'have no opinion'.

I will not bore the forum members with anymore of my 'tirade' and 'stupid' opinions relating to why we are here. We all have reasons for being here. I will not go into mine. Except to say to the one individual who seems to think that I should be able to get a visa for my (new) family. Since you are so knowledgeable in this matter maybe you can tell me how to get a visa for my son who's 'foreigner' father 'dumped' him at the age of 10 months, never to be seen again! Of course, in Thailand you can manufacture a birth certificate for the right price. Maybe you no what that price is?

Many people have stated that they come to Thailand because of the 'Culture'. Do you know the definition of Culture? a particular society at a particular time and place; tastes in art and manners that are favored by a social group; knowledge and values shared by a society, etc. In Thailand, Thai Culture has several additional definitions today - GREED - CORRUPTION - THEIVERY among others! This is what has ruined Thailand (IMO).

It is interesting to read on the forum about people that are purchasing or contemplating the purchase of:

Condo's for 1,000,000 plus baht with many at prices of 4,000,000 baht and above! That's $27,000 - 106,000 plus US dollars.

Land for 500,000 baht (minimum) to well over 2,000,000 baht per rai! That's $13,000 to $54,000 plus US dollars per acre. And you cannot own the land!

House for 1,000,000 plus baht! Again, that's $27,000 plus US Dollars. Combined House and Land - $40,000 US Dollars (minimum)!! And again, you cannot own the land!

I have personally shopped for another house and prices have ranged from 800,000 to over 2,000,000. And this is for 'second hand' town houses and 'stand alone' houses that are so run down that I would not put 'farm animals' in them. To refurbish them to what most 'foreigners' would consider 'acceptable' will cost an additional 800,000 to 2,000,000 in materials and labor. Needless to say, I will not be purchasing another house 'in this lifetime'!

For those that are not familiar with a 'Rai' or 'Acre' of land - an 'Acre' is equivalent to 2.5 Rai of land.

And by the way, a Rai of land was selling for 250 baht in 1967 - today, the same 1 Rai of 'farm' land is going for 500,000 baht (that's a 2,000% increase!).

Are we really that stupid? Are the Thai women the only reason many 'foreigners' are here? It is difficult for me to comprehend how any 'foreigner' would want to come to Thailand today and spend the above kind of money in a country where the government continually make it difficult through 'rule changes', etc. for us to stay here. There are many places in our own country where we can purchase condo's, land, and houses - and OWN them - for the same money that the 'GREEDY' Thai people are asking. Luckily I was able to purchase a rai of land right after the crisis of 1997 and before the prices began to inflate. How does the price of land correlate to the cost-of-living in Thailand? Something is not right!

Ask yourself 'Why are land prices so high'? Who are the people that own 'most' of the land in Thailand? Is it a 'certain group of elite' that own all the land? Where did their money come from? Two guesses and they will both be correct - It will not be spelled out here!

Why can't the 'foreigner' own land in Thailand? Part of this has already been answered above. Why would a 'certain' group of elite's want the 'foreigner' to purchase and own land? It could be that 'they' want to purchase all the land they can at 'rock bottom' prices - which they have been doing since the 70s - and then sometime in the future change the law so they can sell the land to the 'stupid foreigner' at ridiculously inflated prices. Many people on this forum, and Thai people in general, will say that the 'foreigners' have driven prices up (condo's, houses', land). IMO the Thai elite have driven prices out of sight. In reading the Bangkok Post and The Nation newspapers it does not take much of an imagination to determine 'who owns' Thailand and why the 'net worth' of a 'select' group of people have mysteriously increased over the years! When I write about land prices, I am Not referring to Phuket, Bangkok, Samui, etc. - prices in those places are 'ridiculous'. I am referring to the 'country', the 'village', the 'small cities', etc.

For you people that want Thailand to remain the same - Thailand was 100% better in the 60s, 70s, and 80s than it is today (2006). The people were truly a great people, but greed, corruption, and thievery have taken over. The farmers in the country have seen how the Thai Bangkok elite's have taken advantage of them through the land sales and purchases. The 'farmers' or 'village people' are now trying to get the same kind of money for the land that is left. Who is going to buy the land? The average Thai citizen cannot afford these prices! In effect, they have been priced off their land and cannot afford to purchase a new homestead! The same can be said of condo's and house's.

And then there are many Thai's and foreigner alike stating that Thailand is now a democracy and they have a constitution. Thai people can vote for whomever they want. Do the people making these statements have a 'blindfold on' and really belief this? Just look at the governmental structure and the chain at the top! The military took over Thailand in the 1930s and will 'never' release their control. The same governmental structure of the 1930s are the people making the political decisions, rules, laws, etc. today - in whose favor! Certainly not for the general populace! If I am poor and have no money and someone offers me 200 or 500 baht to vote for somebody, I am going to take it. Voting is not 'free choice' - with or without the 'hand-out'. The 'village' people are 'Told' who they will vote for with 'intimidation'.

If all this is happening, Why don't the Thai people speak up? First, you must have an educated society. But isn't education mandatory? Yes, but you have to have a 'educated' and 'knowledgeable' teaching staff at 'all schools' throughout Thailand to impart knowledge to the students. Much of Thailand is either uneducated or undereducated which includes the teaching staff. That is exactly what the Thai government wants - regardless of what they say. Why are TV and radio stations 'controlled' by the government/military? And, 'freedom of press' - If you believe that I have some 'swamp land' I will sell you! An educated society leads to problems. Just look at the problems that the academics at the university level are causing today! If the entire population was 'educated' the current Thai government would never survive. Secondly, if one were to 'speak his or her mind', there is the possibility of an early end to life. Thai people have learned one lesson in school - do not speak your mind, obey authority figures at all times. This is a society of uniforms - from the lowest village 'head' to the very top of government - What is the message? - 'When I am in uniform, I am your superior - and don't you ever forget it'. And then you have a 'foreign' population coming to Thailand and migrating to the cities and villages and bringing with them their vast knowledge of 'world' affairs. This does not bode well for a government that is interested in 'controlling' the populace.

I realize that I am among the vocal minority when making statements as above. Having lived in Thailand in the 60s and 70s, and returning to Thailand in 1997, I have seen enormous change in Thailand - most of it BAD. Bangkok aside, Thailand, the country, is a great place to live. There are good people out in the villages - I cannot say that about the major cities of Thailand! I have had a great time and enjoy living in and among the 'village' people. The 'small villages' are where the 'real' people live.

I have read many comments and opinions from people who live outside of Thailand. So, for those people that live in other countries and only travel to Thailand for a short vacation, I say to them - Don't go writing about Thailand when you know nothing about Thailand. For those that have lived here for 1 or 2 years and write constantly about how great it is to live in Thailand, I say wait a little while longer and 'your opinion' may change.

And, for those that disagree with everything I have written, I say, you have every right to 'your own opinion' just as I have a right to 'my opinion'. In closing, 'my opinion' as expressed above is based on over 40 years of travel to, and living in Thailand.

Now you ask - Why am I here? Probably for the same reason many of us are here - Thai family. Would I leave if I had the chance? Yes. When you have 'embassies' that are not sympathetic in the issuance of visa's, then you have to weigh your choices - leave the family, or live with your family. It is not the Thai people that I have contempt for - it is the Thai bureaucratic crap and inefficiency, and their 'I am better than you attitude'.

I have noticed over the months that there are very few members out of approximately 25,000 that actually participate in the comments and discussions on TV Forum. It took me awhile to figure out why. There are a small number of members that have an interest in and enjoy bashing other members. These few members do not research a subject before commenting, and have no valid comments, answers, or suggestions and who's only interest is starting a 'verbal war' with other members. These few members seem to find fault with other members comments no matter what the comments may be. If they disagree they do not state what they specifically disagree with. Disagreeable comments like "I know where you live", or "I know you", etc. do not win many friends.

There have been some excellent advice and suggestions that have been provided to me by several TV members - they know who they are - and have been very helpful to me, and I appreciate those comments, good or bad.

As for me, I have read too many negative comments to continue using this 'Forum'. It is really amazing to me how so many of these 'negative' members have 'zero' knowledge of my - education, profession, work experience, personal background, what I have 'gone through' or 'put up with' for the past 40 odd years, etc. - but profess to 'know me', or any other member, for that matter! They seem to want me to provide them with my detailed life history.

From today on, I will become like the approximately 95% of the membership that prefer not to comment or seek advice, etc. and stick to reading the comments and not participate in the 'forum' beyond that.

Thanks to all members that took the time to provide answers to my questions, some of which were 'stupid' and/or 'dumb'.

19,000 dollar becomes 7 mil after 13 yrs.

That's about 57.6% increase per year if I count right

Ever hear of 2 for 1 stock splits?

Good Lord, can no one do simple math? The total price increase is not 400%, it's 40,000%, and the annualized rate of price increase (over 39 years) is 16.6%

yes, that is what I thought would be easily understood from the IRR = 17% bit, but obviously not

(but ok, you got one more decimilitialelle point )

Gee! I really blew it on the math test. But with only a high school education and math being my weekest subject - well, OK, English as well, I am still having trouble trying to figure out the % increase on an investment I had. Maybe you can help me!

You see in 1992 I purchased 1,000 share of stock for $19 per share - that must be $19,000 - Right. And then I cashed in all my shares in Jan 2005 and made $7,000,000 (yes, millions) before taxes. What is the rate of increase? I probably did not provide enough information - but I think you get the point. Even 'dumb people' can make money and not throw it away on something he cannot own.

It appears that I am the only one that thinks 'Land Ownership' laws WILL change! Over 35 years ago 1 Rai of land was selling for 250 baht. Let me clarify - I am only talking about Land up in the North - I do not know about elsewhere in Thailand.

Back in the 1930s - 1950s there were very few 'wealthy' Thais. So how can there be so many wealthy Thais today when the average income 'today' is somewhere around 10,000 baht per month? You can just imagine what the average income was during the period of the 60s - 90s!

Er.... because the lorenz curve of wealth distribution is such that MANY people in Bangkok now have the money to buy property upcountry. Nothing to do with corruption etc etc; more to do with businesses growing of age and the owners getting money. With massively uneven wealth distribution (thailand is on par with USA in this regard) then a few rich people can own a lot. e.g. Crown Property Bureau, take a look at what the Royal family own.

OK, here is the next thing; what rate of return do you think that these wealthy land owners have made over this 35 year period?

Here is your answer....22% IRR in capital gain. That is pretty decent, but I think you'll find that you have WELL overestimated the price of rural land; the bits close to the city, 350k sure, but not the bits further away. I'd guess the average reall apples for apples comparison is somewhere around 50,000b a rai at most. That's a 16% IRR< and let's bear in mind we are in a a bit of an upcycle at the moment which is coming to an end.

The current situation works fine for those wealthy land owners. Most farmers don't own the land; they split the proceeds with the landlord. With the THai owner, they know where they stand. With some foreign owner, there is the risk that the farang might build something else or not let them farm. So I reiterate, the farmers themselves don't want foreign land ownership, and they are the voters (even though they may be influenced by certain land owners).

Just so you dont' think this is a Thailand only issue.....

In NZ, where there was unlimited foreign ownership until recently, foreigners have driven prices up beyond local buying power. Then they are now closing off areas (allowed by law) which previously NZ land owners were happy not to enforce. For instance, Nick's Head, the first part of NZ discovered by Capt Cook is now owned by a foreigner, who ended up having to negotiate with the Crown to allow access during daytime hours by foot; far worse than the previous access by car (bear in mind this is the only nice beach for 200km) but better than the 'no access at all' that many of the other foreign owners have implemented. Hence... strategic land is now reviewed by the crown before sale.

Imagine what would happen in some village areas with large numbers of foreign spouses... potentially a village could be destroyed if a land owner decided 'no access for Thai farmers'.

and that, is what you will not see a change in property ownership.

The rest of your post is fairly typical of your other posts on this board; I suggest you get a deep fat fryer, as you seem to have an unlimited supply of chips on your shoulder.

And re lovethailandlongtime, the sex tourist figure?

instead of spouting opinions disguised as statistics, go to the TAT website and take a look at stats by nationality, family status and gender.

Then explain why all those kids aged 5 and under, or females aged 60 and over, or families from Japan are all sex tourists, because strangely enough I see very few of any of these groups in NEP, patpong or similar.

Your pidgin english name suggests you might just know these sex areas fairly well methinks

Wow! You must have travelled to every 'village' and 'city' throughout Thailand! Amazing that you know so much about land prices from 'everywhere'! The only land I know of for 50,000 B is at the bottom of a lake or river! Or along a river that floods every year! And that is outside a major city or town.

I have been in and out of Thailand for 40 years. I have 'lived' in Thailand during the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s-2000. I have bought land in each of years that I lived here. I do know what the price of land 'was' and 'is'. And, I also stand by my original comments about the wealth - and if you do any 'reading at all', from various sources - books, magazines, internet throughout the 'years' you 'might' understand where I come up with the information.

As for your comment about 'chips-on-my-shoulder', you are correct. I only ask that I be treated fair in Thailand - not constantly being taken advantage of because I am a 'foreigner'. The picture I have is that we are 'all' rich 'foreign' and therefore we are free game.

One thing I forgot to add. I purchased 14 Rai of land for 250 B per Rai in 1967 in a village up North, today 1 Rai of land in the same village will NOT sell for less than 100,000 B per Rai. That's appears to be a 400% increase NOT the 22% you seem to indicate.

It appears that I am the only one that thinks 'Land Ownership' laws WILL change! Over 35 years ago 1 Rai of land was selling for 250 baht. Let me clarify - I am only talking about Land up in the North - I do not know about elsewhere in Thailand.

Back in the 1930s - 1950s there were very few 'wealthy' Thais. So how can there be so many wealthy Thais today when the average income 'today' is somewhere around 10,000 baht per month? You can just imagine what the average income was during the period of the 60s - 90s!

Er.... because the lorenz curve of wealth distribution is such that MANY people in Bangkok now have the money to buy property upcountry. Nothing to do with corruption etc etc; more to do with businesses growing of age and the owners getting money. With massively uneven wealth distribution (thailand is on par with USA in this regard) then a few rich people can own a lot. e.g. Crown Property Bureau, take a look at what the Royal family own.

OK, here is the next thing; what rate of return do you think that these wealthy land owners have made over this 35 year period?

Here is your answer....22% IRR in capital gain. That is pretty decent, but I think you'll find that you have WELL overestimated the price of rural land; the bits close to the city, 350k sure, but not the bits further away. I'd guess the average reall apples for apples comparison is somewhere around 50,000b a rai at most. That's a 16% IRR< and let's bear in mind we are in a a bit of an upcycle at the moment which is coming to an end.

The current situation works fine for those wealthy land owners. Most farmers don't own the land; they split the proceeds with the landlord. With the THai owner, they know where they stand. With some foreign owner, there is the risk that the farang might build something else or not let them farm. So I reiterate, the farmers themselves don't want foreign land ownership, and they are the voters (even though they may be influenced by certain land owners).

Just so you dont' think this is a Thailand only issue.....

In NZ, where there was unlimited foreign ownership until recently, foreigners have driven prices up beyond local buying power. Then they are now closing off areas (allowed by law) which previously NZ land owners were happy not to enforce. For instance, Nick's Head, the first part of NZ discovered by Capt Cook is now owned by a foreigner, who ended up having to negotiate with the Crown to allow access during daytime hours by foot; far worse than the previous access by car (bear in mind this is the only nice beach for 200km) but better than the 'no access at all' that many of the other foreign owners have implemented. Hence... strategic land is now reviewed by the crown before sale.

Imagine what would happen in some village areas with large numbers of foreign spouses... potentially a village could be destroyed if a land owner decided 'no access for Thai farmers'.

and that, is what you will not see a change in property ownership.

The rest of your post is fairly typical of your other posts on this board; I suggest you get a deep fat fryer, as you seem to have an unlimited supply of chips on your shoulder.

And re lovethailandlongtime, the sex tourist figure?

instead of spouting opinions disguised as statistics, go to the TAT website and take a look at stats by nationality, family status and gender.

Then explain why all those kids aged 5 and under, or females aged 60 and over, or families from Japan are all sex tourists, because strangely enough I see very few of any of these groups in NEP, patpong or similar.

Your pidgin english name suggests you might just know these sex areas fairly well methinks

Wow! You must have travelled to every 'village' and 'city' throughout Thailand! Amazing that you know so much about land prices from 'everywhere'! The only land I know of for 50,000 B is at the bottom of a lake or river! Or along a river that floods every year! And that is outside a major city or town.

I have been in and out of Thailand for 40 years. I have 'lived' in Thailand during the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s-2000. I have bought land in each of years that I lived here. I do know what the price of land 'was' and 'is'. And, I also stand by my original comments about the wealth - and if you do any 'reading at all', from various sources - books, magazines, internet throughout the 'years' you 'might' understand where I come up with the information.

As for your comment about 'chips-on-my-shoulder', you are correct. I only ask that I be treated fair in Thailand - not constantly being taken advantage of because I am a 'foreigner'. The picture I have is that we are 'all' rich 'foreign' and therefore we are free game.

Big bikes allowed on the free/tollway.............

Everything else I can live with ..........

englishoak, why do you have the same avatar as Jackr?

I get the creeps everytime I see it

I even know where you live buddy.

You really have a way with words Donz.

Threats, even implied, are against the rules here.

Its not a threat, i was just telling you i know everything

Donz.

Pull your head in.....

Friendly reminder!

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Have a nice day.

Im just trying to spice up this website abit.

I have not posted anything that upsets anyone. (i dont think)

I would like to ask you, and anyone else that would like to respond, Have you talked to any Thai's that live outside Thailand? Have you talked to any Thai's in Thailand that want to get out of Thailand? Well, I have. I have talked to many Thai that live in the USA. OK! I know 'everyone' hates Americans! And, by the way - several hundred thousand Thai's live in the USA (statistics!!). No, I have not talked to all of them! The people (Thai) that I have talked to have said 'They will NEVER go back to Thailand to live - to visit Yes. When I asked why, the general response is 'corruption, 'no freedom', 'low income', and many other remarks. So, when I produced this list, it is a list derived by 'talking to' many people - BOTH Thai and 'farang', and comments made within the postings of TV. It is not my list entirely. Many 'suggestions - comments' on the list I do agree with 100%, BUT there are also things on the list that I do not agree with 'Totally' - Just like everyone else - some agree and some disagree.

So bash me if you like but, please keep in mind, that comments made here are not 'always' the comments of one individual.

Have a great day. I do not take threats seriously.

Whilst everyone should of course carry on with their own personal efforts, it should be realised that the UN, various International Human Rights Organisations and numerous NGO's have been banging their heads against a brick wall for 10 years. Although there was a slight effort to improve the situation recently. Mobile ID units were established primarily due to the King's efforts, but corruption is rife with numerous documented cases of "favours" being requested by local officers.

It was in fact only less than a year ago that the 1st Shan Stateless person was awarded Thai citizenship!

I don't know if anyone involved has yet contacted an NGO, but the Mirror Art Group in Chiang Rai should be able to point you in the right direction. Possibly "FORUM ASIA" or "UNPO"

Good Luck!

Thank you 'Dragonman' for the information. I will try and find the NGOs you speak of, but I will wait to see if the Nai Ampur has any success, first. I will give him a couple of weeks (he said 1 week!) and then if nothing happens I'll try the NGOs.

As I stated in one of my other 'posts', I have never in all my working life ever been put in the position of having to beg for anything, except here in Thailand. It' not fun!

Again, Thanks

It appears that I am the only one that thinks 'Land Ownership' laws WILL change! Over 35 years ago 1 Rai of land was selling for 250 baht. Let me clarify - I am only talking about Land up in the North - I do not know about elsewhere in Thailand.

Back in the 1930s - 1950s there were very few 'wealthy' Thais. So how can there be so many wealthy Thais today when the average income 'today' is somewhere around 10,000 baht per month? You can just imagine what the average income was during the period of the 60s - 90s!

Where did all the wealth come from? It could be the 3 primary vices! So what happen to all the money that came - assumption - from the vices. Real estate! There had to be something to 'launder' money. Real estate (land) up North was purchased by some wealthy people from Bangkok at a 'song'. Today it is very difficult to find 1 Rai of land for less than 300,000 baht.

So why will the Land Ownership laws change? The wealthy are not going to hang onto all this 'cheap' land they bought. The 'farmers' have gotten smart. They sold cheap before but they will not accept anything less than 300,000 today. If the 'Big' boys can make money off of land, why not the farmers.

Now then, when the wealthy of Bangkok get tired of holding onto all this land - Who is going to buy it? The 'stupid' farang? They will change the law so that we can buy all the land we want for 'astronmical' amounts of 'cash'! Then we can hope that the same people that 'use to' own this land do not change the law back to what it was and then take all the land back.

As for changing the law - no big deal. They simply tell the Thai people - this is good business since. It will put lots of money in your pockets. They will buy this stratagy for a few years and then take all the land back.

Sounds good to me.

OK! Let's get back to basics.

Improvements:

Land Ownership - Provide the same rights to 'foreigners' in Thailand that we in the USA provide to 'foreigners'. In the USA you do not have to get a US citizen to act as a 'nominee'. In fact, if a 'foreigner' has a non-immigrant visa, the day they step off the plane they can buy 'anything' they want - land, business, house, etc., etc., and do not have to have permission from some government agency to buy it.

Green Card: After spending an average of 2 years in the USA a non-immigrant can apply for a Green Card. Unless your a 'total screw-up' it is 100% certain you will be given a Green Card. The Green Card is renewed every 10 years. You do not have to travel to some immigration office yearly to obtain a one-year visa.

Citizenship: After 5 years (most cases) a non-immigrant 'Green Card' holder can apply to become a US citizen. In over 90% of the cases, citizenship is approved. (Check the web - several cities quote differences in the 90% figure).

House: You can build a house anywhere you want and do not have to get permission from some village head that has a 3 to 6th grade education. Yes, there are certain requirements that do apply. And you do not have to register the house at some district office and carry a house registration around everywhere you go.

Car/Truck/etc.: You do not need a 'House Registration' to purchase a vehicle.

Business: You can purchase a business, start a business, and do not have to satisfy some quota that states you have to have a certain number of US Citizen employed. As long as a 'foreigner' is legal you can hire them.

Traffic Laws: Apply to 'everyone'. If you break a law you are given a 'ticket'. No police officer will EVER ask for pocket money. You take the ticket to court, or you mail the ticket in with the amount of the fine. You must always drive in the proper direction and proper lane - motorcycle or other vehicles. If you do not you will get a ticket, and more than likely go to jail with a court date to follow. You drive drunk, you are given a test on the spot, if you do not pass you go to jail and a court date is provided. If you offer money in any of these circumstances - you go to jail.

Parking: If you park illegally you will be given a ticket (Same as above). You cannot park on sidewalks, block someones driveway, block a street entrance, block the follow of traffic, etc.

Now then. Are these common sense rules? Would this be an improvement over what is currently the rules (or lack of) in Thailand?

I am probably wrong (as I aways am) but it seems to me that the items I mentioned above apply in almost all Western/European countries?

I think that was an observation retirednavyman not a complaint..

You have got to be kidding me.

If you think comments like "no moral responsibility", "total lack of common sense", "total lack of respect", and "total corrupt population - from birth to adulthood" are merely observations, I would hate to see the kind of things you say about a race you truly despise!

I knew that I would get a lot of 'flak' about this list! I am not surprised. The original question is - Improvements! This list is applicable to most, maybe all, countries of the world. The question relates to Thailand, in this case.

Total lack of common sense - Yes, there is a dire need for 'common sense' that appears to be lacking everywhere. I am just as much at fault in this regard. The parking of motorcycles, cars, trucks, etc., etc., anywhere people see fit - without regard for anyone else - ME!

Total lack of respect - I stand by this 'totally'. No place can you go do you get any respect - Period. From young to old it is - ME - and the he_l with everyone else. It could be that some 'foreigners' have been here for such a long time that it is lacking in them as well.

Total corrupt population - I see it in 7-11 everyday with very young kids stuffing their pockets with merchandise while 'staff' stand there and watch them with a smile on their face! I see it everyday in the news - paper and broadcast. I could go on and on.

Are these only applicable to Thailand. No. It applies to many countries, including the USA. But it is much more noticeable here. Can 'Improvements' be made - Yes. It takes education and parenting - two concepts that do not appear to apply here.

Yes! I would love to be able to go back home but for some reason my wife cannot get citizenship after residing in Thailand for the better part of 30 years. Is that her fault? So, having a wife that cannot get out means I am in 'Jail' for a term that has no end in sight.

Keep it coming!

You hate the world i see.

You must sit at home complaining about a ant in the house, someone riding a bike with a bit of rust, the floor having a spec of dirt on it.

Or

are you just being an attention whore???

Wow! It is amazing how someone who has never met me knows me so well!

I think that was an observation retirednavyman not a complaint..

You have got to be kidding me.

If you think comments like "no moral responsibility", "total lack of common sense", "total lack of respect", and "total corrupt population - from birth to adulthood" are merely observations, I would hate to see the kind of things you say about a race you truly despise!

I knew that I would get a lot of 'flak' about this list! I am not surprised. The original question is - Improvements! This list is applicable to most, maybe all, countries of the world. The question relates to Thailand, in this case.

Total lack of common sense - Yes, there is a dire need for 'common sense' that appears to be lacking everywhere. I am just as much at fault in this regard. The parking of motorcycles, cars, trucks, etc., etc., anywhere people see fit - without regard for anyone else - ME!

Total lack of respect - I stand by this 'totally'. No place can you go do you get any respect - Period. From young to old it is - ME - and the he_l with everyone else. It could be that some 'foreigners' have been here for such a long time that it is lacking in them as well.

Total corrupt population - I see it in 7-11 everyday with very young kids stuffing their pockets with merchandise while 'staff' stand there and watch them with a smile on their face! I see it everyday in the news - paper and broadcast. I could go on and on.

Are these only applicable to Thailand. No. It applies to many countries, including the USA. But it is much more noticeable here. Can 'Improvements' be made - Yes. It takes education and parenting - two concepts that do not appear to apply here.

Yes! I would love to be able to go back home but for some reason my wife cannot get citizenship after residing in Thailand for the better part of 30 years. Is that her fault? So, having a wife that cannot get out means I am in 'Jail' for a term that has no end in sight.

Keep it coming!

A True Story:

This is a story about 2 men. One married a Tai Yai woman and one married a Tai Lue woman in a country that will not be mentioned. For those that are not aware, Tai Yai and Tai Lue are classified as 'hill-tribe'.

The first one - Tai Yai. A 'foreign' man comes to 'this mystery country' on vacation. He meets and falls in love, and marries. After marrying, he goes back to his own country because of a business commitment. He returns to his wife's country, again, on a tourist visa. Upon spending more than 6 months in country on 30 day tourist visa's he decides that he wants to take his new wife to his own country to live. Now then, the first surprise! He discovers that his wife of almost a year is a Tai Yai. The policy of a 'certain' government 'in this mystery country' is that Tai Yai under no circumstances (present policy) will ever be granted Citizenship. This woman's husband (a foreigner) was not aware of this policy when he met and then married this woman. After marrying and finding out the predicament he was in he decided to try and find a way to get Citizenship for his wife. This fellow did not want to spend his whole life in 'this' country. He wanted to go back to his own country with his new wife. So he went first, to his local district office and was told, in not so polite terms, that his wife cannot get Citizenship. So he decided to go to the ministry in the big city to see if they would be helpful. Well, that was a wasted trip. What am I to do, he asks? It so happens that his wife had a Citizen 'aunt' in the big city. They go and see her. After communicating their desires the aunt decides to help. It seems as though there was a daughter of a relative, of a relative that has been 'missing' for many years. So, the new wife and husband travel to the new village. They find her new family(!) and decide to go to the local village headman and seek his help. For a few $, agreements are met and the new wife now has a new name, new family, and new house registration. The husband and his new wife head back to the big city and immediately applied for a passport for his new wife. From the time this fellow decided he wanted to go home with his new wife, rejection by the local district office to do anything for him, and the obtaining of a passport for his new wife - less than 30 days. This fellow now goes to his embassy to apply for a visa to his home country for his new wife. Obtains all the necessary applications and approvals - elapsed time less than 60 days. The embassy sets him up for an interview which will occur within another 60 days. The interview is finally accomplished with the consular official, visa approval is granted, and this fellow and his new wife is on a plane to his country the same day the visa is granted. My friend and his new wife are now sitting on their yacht off the coast of Florida with 'not a worry in the world'. From the time he was told that there was no hope of him ever getting Citizenship for his wife to landing in his home country - less than 5 months.

The second one - Tai Lue. A 'foreign' man comes to 'this mystery country' to retire. He meets and falls in love, and marries 6 months later. Now then, the first surprise! He discovers that his wife of almost a year is a Tai Lue. This woman's husband (a foreigner) assumed that all woman in this country were Citizens of the country. Never gave any thought otherwise! But, it just so happens that the government decided to allow the Tai Lue in the wife's village to apply for citizenship. Needless to say, this fellow was quite happy about this news. Three (3) years later he and his new wife are still waiting for his wife's citizenship. Of course, it took 3 years to discover that the former staff of the district office where the application was completed 'threw all the applications in the trash' and kept the many thousands of $ collected. No documentation - no proof of money collected! Well this fellow got upset and sent a letter to the ministry in the big city asking about the status of his wife's 3 year old application. The ministry sent a letter to the wife's local district office asking the same question. Oh! But you did not pay any taxes, says the headman! Oh! But we did, says I - proceeding to show him our tax receipts which were given to the wife more than 3 years previous by the same staff that walk out with the tax money! Needless to say there was a surprised look on the face of the district office headman. Oh! But your wife completed a Work Permit form stating that she has an income of 30,000 per month! I say, no she did not fill out that form, the former staff member did even as my wife was trying to explain to the staff member that my wife was a 'housewife' - not employed. But it is a required form, says the staff member. Trying to explain the difference between a 'housewife' and an 'employee' fell on deaf ears. Common sense was definitely lacking! The district headman seemed to understand the problem and indicated that it is solvable. What the eventual outcome will be - only time will tell.

What is the moral of these two stories? Let you guess!

ISSUANCE OF TRAVEL DOCUMENT (T.D.) FOR ALIENS

I. REQUIREMENT

Aliens as listed below are eligible to apply for Travel Document (T.D.) at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Department of Consular Affairs, Visa and Travel Documents Division located on Chaengwattana Road, Bangkok 10210 , Tel. 981-7171 ext. 3202-3 direct line 575-1062-4 / Fax.575-1066 /

E-mail : [email protected] ;

- Aliens who are granted permanent residence in Thailand or those who have been denied by their own government in issuing passport or travel document

- Stateless persons

- Aliens who are granted permanent residence in Thailand under a special ten-million investment programme

II. DOCUMENTS REQUIRED

- A Residence Certificate with its copy

- A House Registration with its copy

- A Certificate of Alien with its copy

- 3 photographs (2 1/2 inches) taken within the past six months

- An application form completely filled out

III. APPLICATION FEE

500 Baht for issuing or renewal

IV. VALIDITY OF DOCUMENT

T.D. is valid for 1 year

http://www.mfa.go.th/web/12.php#a

Thanks lopburi3!

A nice gift... Do you know of the Thai language link of the same page? (I need to fish around on the Thai version of that website...)

Assuming that a GF can get all her papers together for the travel document. How long do they take for processing? Just wondering... days, weeks, years? Could I help facilitate this if I am in the LOS for only a few days, weeks? I am currently in the USA, so timing is important...

And can same travel document be used for a fiancee visa to USA, what are the restrictions to this kind of document? Could she leave but not be able to return?

I appreciate all of your help... I don't want to over milk the cow, but all insights into this are very valuable and time saving... Thanks!

Many thanks to lopburi3 and all,

dseawarrior

Again, I do not want to be the bearer of bad news but I have been fighting the Travel Document issue for 4 years. My wife has 2 older brothers (Tai Lue) working in Bangkok (illegally) and have worked there for over 10 years. They came back to the district Ampur to apply for a Travel Document - Basicly the staff at the Ampur 'laughed at them'! Support for non-Thai Citizens at an Ampur is non-existent in Thailand.

The only reason, I believe, that my Tai Lue spouse is getting any support is because I am 'pushing'! I also realize that by 'pushing' we may loose all chances of her getting Thai Citizenship. But I am very, very polite in my correspondence and face-to-face meetings. In other words 'I'm on my knees begging these people for help'. In all my 40 years of public service I have never been put into a position where I had to 'beg' for anything - except Thailand.

Travel Documents, in my oppinion, are harder to come by than Thai Citizenship. You have to get through the 'crap' at the local Ampur first. Then you have to hope that staff at the Ministry in Bangkok are sympathic. My brother-in-laws are still attempting to get Travel Documents so that they can 'legally' travel to Bangkok for their work.

In case you are not aware. Travel 'outside your local Ampur' without a Travel Document can result in deportation and/or jail time. Luckily my wife has had a Travel Document since the age of 8 years. She can travel anywhere within Thailand in addition to travel to China, Malaysia, Sinapore, and Hong Kong with the 'Phony' passport (Travel Document) the Thai government issues. She cannot travel to any Western country, however. Western/European countries will not issue visa's using the travel documents that Tai Lue have.

Also keep in mind that if anyone is luckily enough to get a Travel Document and ID Card (Not Thai Citizen ID), check the 'Color'! Some (Most) ID cards are for identification Only and are basiclly worhtless. The 2nd item is the Travel Document - various Colors for these as well. Depending on the Color, you may only be able to travel 'within your own Chiangwad'.

The above are factual! I live in an area that have a permanent police checkpoint and if you do not have the proper documentation they either turn you away, send you back where you came from, fine you on the spot, or throw you in jail. The only people that this does not appear to apply to are 'really old people'. My wife's mother does not have a Travel Document but can travel anywhere without problems! Maybe she is just lucky!!!

Now the Tai Yai and Thai Citizenship. The only information I have is 'Heresay'. It is my understanding that the Tai Yai for many years were heavyily involved in the drug trade and therefore are a 'security risk'! Truth or rumor, I do not know. I cannot go into what I personally believe here!!!

Luck to All!

I would start with the whole list that follows:

Thailand needs a complete overhaul.

Total lack of common sense

total lack of respect

total lack of conscious

total lack of courtesy

no moral responsibility

totally corrupt population - from birth to adulthood

LOS - land of smiles - only when passing money from your hands to theirs

Thai philosophy - foreigners are the scum of the earth and must be tolerated in exchange for their cash

Sidewalks not made for walking

Sidewalks used as extension of a persons business enterprise

Sidewalks used as parking for motorcycles, cars, trucks streets are filthy

Restaurants that spray food with insecticide before cooking and serving

Pastry shops that close once a week to fumigate

Total lack of traffic laws

Police only interested in extorting your hard earned cash

the public transport system

the taxi drivers

the scruffiness and filth

the poor service

the surliness and unfriendliness of the thais in the street markets and the shoddy tat they try to sell.

the total lack of any sense of aesthetics about development.

the car hire company that tries to charge for the repair to the car when it fails to start.

the dangerous driving and road system

the padding of bills restaurants , and the problems in correcting restaurants mistakes.

A country where lies and deception permeate every level of the social fabric

A country where your instincts scream at you every waking moment to get the hel_l away from here

Learn a language that does not have a direct translation for ‘yes’ or ‘no’

A language where the words for a horse and a dog sound the same

Live in a country that is floundering in a sea of corruption

A smile is a request for interest.

A turned head is a snub.

No eye contact is a lack of interest, or care.

There is no interest in education.

Truth holds no value.

The arts are barely alive in Asia, unless you count copying. No live band writes their own material, painters copy from photographs, and there is nearly no literature produced.

Philosophy is not here. Never discussed here

No recognizable allegiance to any consensual reality, scientific or otherwise. No recognizable living arts.

The cultures amount to the importation of currently fashionable cell phones.

Even love is a business proposition here, a bargain. A temporary bargain.

Children locked up in brothels for sexual services.

Children forced to work in sweatshops under hellish conditions.

Children sold as camel jockeys.

Child beggars manipulated by adult gangs.

Children working as drug couriers.

Children used as loans in debt bondage.

Children forced into marriage.

Alot of from the list I am sure that many of you will 'totally' disagree with. But the above are the reality of living in Thailand.

YES! I am still living here and try to ignore all of the above. The question that was asked was - What would you change? I am realistic however and know that this is the way Thailand has been long before we 'foreigners' arrived and will never change. So, live the way they do and not worry about anything - Mai Bpen Rai NO change is needed

dseawarrior (Quote)

Good idea to not hold your breath! I hope that you are able to get this resolved in a week!

My girlfriend is Thai Yai (hilltribe, Kuhn Yuam, Mae Hong Son, but could be Thai Lue or Burmese for all I know...). It doesn't matter so much from where, the trick is that she needs to get her Tabien Baan worked out with whoever she has been living with or calling family over the years...

If she has moved around a lot that may be complicated but I assume that she has connections with her friends and family at her Ampur...

My GF has been going through all of this recently and she claims that everything to be done has already been done... Spreading dosh around would only complicate the issue she says and get the local officials greedy and jealous... She says the same thing about getting an attorney involved -- she thinks they would only want to steal money -- probably true...

My GF says to be patient. She may get her ID card/ tabien baan/ baht brachachon in a week a month, a year or maybe never...

And with the govt busy with protests, I don't know if the locals are being very diligent in getting the paperwork processed... God knows what they do all day in those administrative offices...

Good luck to you mate... We are in similar boats... Tell me if you are successful in your attempts at pushing the process along -- but be careful about pushing too hard -- could well backfire...

Chok dee na,

dseawarrior

I thought ethnic hilltribe people were excluded from financial provisions by the Ministry. Where did she come to Thailand from when she was 8, Burma?

Phone or e-mail the Ministry direct, rather than through the Amphur. Although presuming you are in Chiang Rai, they should be aware after the recently approved masses of hilltribe people. I sincerely doubt they all earned over 30,000 a month.

Hi Dragonman,

BTW, which Ministry do you have in mind? Do you have their contact info in BKK? (Ph, e-mail, website, specific names of people to contact?)...

I am fairly certain that "everything" has been done by my GF at her local amphur for her application and now she is waiting for the ministry in BKK to rubber stamp the application or whatever...

Please share a bit more so that more of this becomes more transparent to more people... ?

Thanks! This is a strange and byzantine process of Thai society... Why do they take _so_ long?

dseawarrior

Dseawarrior:

Good idea - Don't hold your breath either! My wife, a Tai Lue, is from a village that has a mix - Tai Lue and Tai Yai. I do not want to be the bearer of bad news but I was told over 3 years ago when my wife applied for her Thai Citizenship "that the Tai Yai could wait until h_ll freezes over" before Tai Yai would be granted Thai Citizenship! That statement is extremely hard to take but that is what was basically quoted to me by staff from our Amphur.

The address I wrote to that provided some results was as follows:

H.E. ACM. Kongsak Wanthana, Minister of Interior

Ministry of Interior

Thanon Atsadang

Bangkok 10200, Thailand

In my situation the Interior Ministry seemed to be more interested in what I referred to in my letter as 'a possible corruption issue regarding people wanting to help for a 'fee' to expedite the Thai Citizenship application processing for my wife'. The Ministry, it seems, is clamping down on people asking for large sums of money to 'help' people get ID Cards. This is great! BUT they did not seem to be interested in my other complaints - Work Permit, Taxes paid but 'disappeared', why no answers from Amphur staff, etc.

Good luck.