CDB

All I can tell you is that it's a bit of a nightmare.

I own some properties and am a permanent residence. 6 years ago, I got an overdraft facility with Bangkok Bank for 30% of the value of one property. It two months and endless paperwork, appraisals, insurance for the property and so on.

A few weeks ago I asked for an addition 1 million loan secured against the (now more valuable property). Bangkok Bank wanted:

* For me to pay for another appraisal (ok)

* A visit to my company to check me out (ok)

* Full financial statements on my Thai company and my Singapore company -- translated (getting annoying)

* A letter from my Ambassador certifying that I was a citizen in good standing (<deleted>, the permanent residence is more than enough)

* A gazillion signed photocopies of everything (work permit, passport, PR book, Alien identification, audited FS)

* Interest of MRR = 3% (<deleted>, this is a secured loan)

* Loan insurance of 50 K THB

Got that? For a fully-secured loan, they also wanted to me to pay for insurance at 5% of the cost of the principal and for me to pay 4% more interest per annum than they charge for a mortgage. And I am a permanent resident of many years, with a spotless credit record.

After talking to some others, the only advice I can give you is to stay way clear of Bangkok Bank. Try Siam Commercial Bank.

In most private companies, there are preemptive rights for shareholders. That is, you can't sell shares to a third party without offering them to the existing shareholders first in proportion to their shareholdings.

In Thailand, as I recall, this is not the case by default (as it is under company law in most countries). So you should check your articles of association and other company set up documents. It would be somewhat unusual to not have such a provision.

If there is a restriction on such a sale, you will need existing shareholders to sign a waiver of preemptive rights.

CDB

I've tried many times over the years for much smaller amounts on businesses with much higher revenues, including BOI companies.

It's not possible. Certainly not in that amount.

They will always need collateral. And receivables won't count either. It's hard enough to get a loan even when you a title deed and a clean credit history.

CDB

Internet is an infrastructure issue -- why would that issue be conflated with Thailand's ability to build industries that utilize its labor force?

Thailand typically gets there in the end with infrastructure, as it did with the BTS, airports, expressways and so on. It might be slower than other countries but there is no reason to believe that it's a long-term issue.

But anyway the internet is just a delivery method in digital content production. Saying that we can judge Thailand's prospects for success in digital content by its Internet is akin to saying that electronics factories won't work in Thailand because the roads aren't good enough!

Thailand has a long record of attracting industries that utilize its lower cost workforce, whether it's textiles, electronics, movie production and so on. And as with other developing economies the trend over time is to move to more highly skilled industries as labor costs rise. Digital content is a suitable area because the skills needed are not very high end; nor do they require leadership or research.

Are Thais

a. The most computer literate in the region?

For digital content production, they are as good as anyone else

b. The most well educated at computer science in region?

They are good enough

c. Possessing the best digital network in the region?

Not really relevant. Sure bandwidth is much better in Korea/Japan, and for that matter, much worse in China, but for any large project delivery to the client is likely to be via DVDs/Blu-ray/Flash drives not internet uploads.

d. Possessing the best intellectual property controls in the region?

Much better than China's and getting better all the time. Anyway you can just set up Thailand for production and run contractual issues through another country (as I do)

e. Having the best foreign investment laws in the region?

For this kind of work, yes, I think so. The Board of Investment gives multiple ways to achieve typical investment goals, whether it's tax privileges or foreign ownership.

f. Having a clear policy for developing digital networks and improving them in the next ten years?

Again, it's not clear to me how network development affects a production environment. Nor does anybody plan 10 years out. The development of 3G here has been a sorry story, but certainly the Thais have plans.

I'm currently producing multilingual Flash animations in Thailand. Have tried using resources in many countries but it turns out the the most skilled and low cost resources are in Thailand, whether it's my in-house staff or freelance resources.

As usual, the Thaivisa naysayers are clueless. It's easy to get BOI privileges to either be 100% foreign owned or to have tax breaks for anything to do with digital content production. Thailand is a much better choice than China for this kind of work: lower wages; laws on IP protection; faster Internet (yes really); skilled resources; and skilled foreigners here too, so can build a fusion workforce.

The people at SIPA are smart with good ideas. Unfortunately they don't often get the support they need from other government departments. Even though the endless promotion of "hubs" is getting a bit tired, the concept itself is sound enough.

The initiative to promote creative industries is a very welcome idea, even if it is currently short on specifics. As economies mature, they need to be more supportive of valued added services; and become less dependent on manufacturing.

Given that they are currently spearheading the initiative under the ICT ministry (because most creative content is digital) it seems reasonable to have a new State agency. It can be cleaner to have a new agency than to wrest with the entrenched views and portfolios of older ones.

Some notable points about the promotion of creative industries:

* The participants in these industries tend to be much smaller companies (video production, advertising, animation, etc.) than Thailand is used to focusing on. Rather than trying to boost the economy by attracting massive manufacturing companies to set up here, initiatives like this are the kind of diversification that Thailand needs.

* This initiative will create a lot of opportunities for foreigners and co-owned companies. I have friends in these industries who are already planning on doing more movie production here as Thailand brings its incentives in line with other countries.

* Thailand and Thai people are more individualistic and creative than other Asian countries. It's part of the culture. There is a wealth of talent here.

Isn't it so typical of Thaivisa, that when the government tries to do something new -- and even when that initiative will be helpful to foreigners and foreign/co-owned firms -- the trolls all roll in to laugh it off. Not a single positive post! What is wrong with people?

Let's clear this up a little.

The tax that is deducted is not income tax but withholding tax of 3%. Income tax is your responsibility to report, whereas withholding tax is the responsibility of the company to submit in various situations.

* If you have never filed any income tax with the Revenue Department, there would not be any issues.

* If you have changed your address; use a foreign address; or use a foreign bank; you'll also be completely under the radar.

The correct legal advice as always is to get a work permit. It's impossible to state with certainty that these is no risk, because laws and practice can change. However the answer to your concern is that you're very unlikely to have problems with tax filings, but you're more at risk if caught in an Immigration raid.

Some suggestions:

* Bill your company from an offshore account (e.g. Hong Kong)

* Bill your company with an overseas address (yet Thai bank account)

* Bill your company in the name of a Thai person/gf who does not have substantial personal income (assuming you trust them)

Funny, that know-it-all comment about needing to have a degree to get a work permit. That's absolutely not true. You need to have a degree OR EQUIVALENT qualification. That EQUIVALENT qualification can simply be experience that is appropriate for the position. And of course, it's fairly easy to fabricate overseas experience.

I'm not saying it's easy but I've gotten work permits for MANY foreigners over the years and in my current company there are two such farangs. One is myself, so I'm always amused at hearing this line trotted out. I've gotten my work permits and permanent residence over the years without any official raising my lack of a degree. Of course it's easier if you have a history of work permits; it's easier if you're a director; it's easier if you are joining a BOI company and so on. But I've secured work permits for employees who have had very little in the way of relevant experience.

The real hurdle is the HR department. Across Asia a degree is seen as a minimum requirement, but you can argue equivalent experience and that can be seen as an advantage because you are less likely to move on.

Nice to see the other typical Thaivisa chestnuts being rolled out too. "You'll lose all your money if you start a business". "Never invest more in Thailand than you can afford to walk away from" "To make a small fortune in Thailand... start with a large one".

I wonder? Do posters who write such crap think they are qualified because they have lost their own money in some such schemes? Or they are qualified to comment because their long experience in snarking on forums?

There are lots of successful farang owned businesses in Thailand and more than a few are owned and operated by farang businessmen without degrees...

Hi there,

I'm not a lawyer but have been in Labor Court many times, both as a plaintiff and as a defendant.

The law is very heavily weighted in your favor, although as the other poster mentioned, the wheels of justice grind slowly. As an employee, you are entitled to free legal representation, but if you don't speak and read Thai, it's certainly best to hire an English speaking lawyer.

If your company pays you even one day late, they are exposing themselves to a lot of legal consequences. The courts can even seize the assets of the company and sell them to pay your late salaries. If you have a valid claim for dismissal (and unless you are missing paperwork almost any claim will be valid), the company will be forced to put several months of pay into an escrow account fairly quickly, so they lose the cash for as long as case drags on.

Also, the company will have to spend time and effort and expense defending the claims. And even if the company has strong counterclaims against you, about the best result the company can hope for, is for a "compromise" where they pay you a smaller amount. At every stage, the system favors the employee and not the employer, so this will encourage the company to settle with you quickly.

Why might such action fail?

* If your company is actually a series of related companies, you might find that any assets in your workplace are owned by a different company and that people who appear to own your company have set up a shell with nominee directors that they can allow to be seized.

* If you allow yourself to be intimidated. Filing countersuits and making threats is cheap and easy to do.

* If you are planning to leave Thailand and/or cannot find another job, the Thai company might try to wait you out.

Even if your Employer has debts, the owed salaries to you will be prioritized.

If your company has serious cashflow problems, I would suggest you do not delay in filing action in the courts. The longer you delay, the more time the company has to move its assets.

If the company has any chance of survival and/or if it has assets you can go after, normally the sensible reaction of the company's directors would be to start paying you, negotiating with you for staged payments, and a realization that the balance of power has changed and they need to appease you.

Unfortunately, you might also get the other reaction, which to try to intimidate you.

I am amazed at how low-paid Thai workers and farangs just roll over when they get into this situation, believing they can't fight it. OTOH, educated and higher paid Thai managers know only too well that they can march down to the Labor court at the slightest infraction and bring a whole world of trouble top the company...

Hi,

I've set up a Thai company with 3.2 million of registered capital of which 2 million is fully paid up in cash.

I need to get 6 work permits for foreigners asap. I have BOI applications submitted under two categories with a (rather expensive) law firm. I do expect to get the BOI privileges because we'll have over 12 million in investment and it's an IT related business.

I may need to get work permits processed before the BOI privileges come through -- and plan what to do if they are denied.

Over a year I can raise and pay up the 16 million capital from profits, but what cash do I need to apply for more work permits now?

My expensive law firm says all 2 million baht must be transferred in for each person before I can apply. Other sources and forum posts suggest that I might not have to pay it all up immediately, but could do so over time, with a percentage of cash paid in right away?

What's the real story?

Also I have Thai permanent residence -- will that help?

We have enough Thai employees not to worry about the ratios.

Any help appreciated. Any law firms with sensible answers and reasonable fees might get a lot of work from us

Hi all,

I've read through some topics but not found the basic information I'm looking for. I would like to find out about index funds linked to the SET or SET 50.

A key feature of such funds in other markets is that they typically have low annual fees of around 0.25%. I want to avoid managed funds which might have 1-2% fees each year. Basically the fact that Thailand is an emerging market provides sufficient risk profile -- I don't need to pay someone to "micro-manage" the holdings or even waste my own time and energy doing that.

I've seen reference to such funds in these boards, but no clear indication of fees, and indeed where I did see fees mentioned, they seemed high.

Is there a local or international bank that I can walk into and buy some shares in a fund linked to the SET in the amount of say 1 million baht? 3 million baht? 5 million?

I am PR holder with a very good credit record and own properties in Thailand so I presume that dealing with banks is no problem.

So, to repeat, I'm just looking for a low fee SET linked fund... Can anyone help? Thanks.

BTW, I am planning to convert my property holdings in Thailand to SET linked funds and move some cash offshore into a mixture of investment types. Anyone else doing the same thing?

OK, so I'll mention my experience with PR. It was a bureuacratic process lasting from December 2005 to June 2007 but not as hard as some make out. My declared Thailand salary only averaged around 100 K per month for three years (less at some points) and I am single. The Thai test was embarassingly easy and chatting with the Immigration officials they admitted that if you were well qualified in other areas you would get through anyway.

I don't have a university degree. I didn't use a lawyer. If they did some serious investigation they would have found I overstayed my visa for years when I was younger. But I didn't have any real doubt that I would get PR, and the Immigration people instantly gave me the impression that I was going to get it all along. I am committed to Thailand, have built businesses here, own my condo and speak Thai rather well.

Equally I have no doubts I will get my Thai nationality in a few more years. Again and again, I can see that the naysayers are only the people who can't qualify. Want to buy a new car with only 50 K down, or get a mortgage on new condo? No problem with PR. If you have many businesses and need a WP with them all, PR is a big help too. And the main point for me is that PR for 5 years is a prerequisite to citizenship.

My own update is that I have now gotten my house registration back with my name on it, leaving in theory only the following tasks:

1) change of status from "resident" to "head of household" (District office)

2) Get my resident book endorsed for travel and multiple re-entry permit (Immigration)

Except I have a new issue: my House Registration book and Alien Registration book both show the wrong date of birth for me, claiming I was born in July instead of February. This is bound to cause problems. Clearly the police officer mistranscribed or misread my date of birth, as the Thai initials for Febraury and July both start with Gor Gai...

So I guess that will mean two more trips to sort that out. The District Officer people are by far the most annoying and officious. My girlfriend actually pointed out to them that they had the wrong date of birth before taking back my book, and showed them a copy of my passport. She was told that was irrelevant because they had to follow the Alien Registration book....

So I'll go back and edit my other post to advice double checking everything they write into the books...

- 12 Pictures 4x6, but they only used 4 in this round.

In my case:

4 for the Residence permit (Immigration)

6 for the Alien Registation book (Police Station)

5 for adding my name to the existing house registration -- most farcical part of the process -- (District Office)

1 for a multiple reentry permit (Immigration)

I guess that is a minimum of 15 pics, 16 if you want to leave the country. Mind you, the District office ones are a smaller size (one inch) so hopefully you can "cut yourself down to size". The registrar in the District office handed the girlfriend a knife and ruler and got her to work...

STOP PRESS: When I was shorthanded in the District office I arranged for girlfriend to deliver those the next day. Without much hope I asked would he accepted home printed photos. No problem, he said. Dunno if this is now true of all civil service because it would be a great time-saver (and money saver), if so. So I sat at home against a white wall and snapped myself with my mobile phone and printed out on a inkjet photo printer on photo paper. Photos accepted! Till now, if there was a remote suspicion that they were home printed they would not be accepted.

But anyway, the updated advice is probably to 16 photos shot in a way that you can cut some to 1 inch size.

- 2 copies of Tabien baan

You might as well get loads of copies of everything as at each stage they will demand multiple photocopies of everything. Sign every page of course and in the District Office I was asked to print my name under each one.

Cashier Cheque ( cash if u want, but I dont like cash being handled)

yes, no personal cheques. I used cash, since I wanted to be at Immigration by 08:30 and did not want to have to make a trip to the bank (which opened later and in the opposite direction) to get a cashier's cheque

The sheet with instructions that Immigration gives you does not cover the concept of turning up at the District Office for your house registration, then being told there has to be an investigation, whereby you take the letter requesting an investigation (from the Registrar) back to Immigration who hang on to your new residence permit for a few days, then you get a letter from Immigration approving that the residence permit is genuine(!), then you go back to the District Office with that letter, and they tell you come back again another day when it is done. Three extra trips! And BTW if you want to change to be the "Jao Bahn" (Head of Household) that cannot be done the same trip. It is another trip in another section.

Thanks for all the help I've had over the past two years going through the process. I'm sure that when people are reading through these threads, they equate getting the residence permit with success, and perhaps don't fully consider the hassles that come after. Camerata did go through the processes that happen AFTER you get your letter telling your to pick up the residence permit, but I have some updates and personal observations.

1) Picking up the residence permit. It's still the case that you go to room 301 first, then they quickly cross check your name and send your down to room 202. You do not actually have to have the letter informing you to pick up your permit, just seeing your name on the website notice is enough.

When you go down to room 202, there is no queueing system, and you'll have gotten the notice simultanously with 200 other people. So be prepared for totally disorganized queueing and long waits, although I must say the immigration offices I dealt with were full of good humor. No personal checks allowed, so take a cashier's check, or cash. Cash was just fine for me -- the jokingly miscounted the 191,400 at first and asked for more money just to see the look on my face

There's a lot of stuff to be written into your permit so they usually say to come back the next day and pick it up. I asked them to let a secretary pick it up instead, and was told that was officially unacceptable, but they let me do it anyway. That can save you a lot of time.

You do get a letter in Thai telling you of the next steps, but that letter leaves out A LOT of requirements so don't rely on it.

At the beginning of the whole process, the immigration lady asked me if I needed to leave the country in the next 7-10 days -- because it was not going to be possible (she saw that I travelled frequently). This is my first note of warning: the paperwork and time required to get everything in order is excessive, so when you are ready to pick up your permit, don;t plan on leaving the country for 7-10 days and make sure you can take many days off work to cover the masses of paperwork and struggling with officialdom to come.

2) Picking up the Alien Identification Certicate. This is done at your local police station. But beware! Your first hurdle is finding the right police station. Since I live "Chong Nonsri, Yannawa" I was told to go to Yannaww Police Station -- whic you might think is logical...

They only do the work of processing these certificates during normal civil service hours (09:00-15:50 Monday to Friday) and you only have 7 days to do this from picking up your residence permit. The police downstairs had no idea where to go, expect that it was vaguely upstairs somewhere. So I wandered around looking at each door until I found one with the magic words "Tang Dao" (Alien) written on it. Once inside the office demanded a whole host of signed photocopies and six photos (not mentioned in the list given by immigration) so it was outside and back again. At that point, she told me that I was at the wrong police station! This station is only for Yannawa Sathorn side, she said. You have to go to Bangpongpang police station. I had never heard of Bangpongpang and it does not relate to my address, but I found it eventually.

Once there I was once again warned it could take some time to process, and that her "nai" was not around, and could I come back tomorrow to pick it up. I smiled and said I really needed it today so I got it the same day, albeit with a three hour wait. In Camerata's original post, he mentioned it took weeks, so I asked her about that, and she said normally you can pick it up the next day. I guess it might depend on the police station.

When it came to looking for blank registratiom books, she had to climb a step ladder and pull down a musty pile of blanks that hadn't been touched for a long time, covered in dust. They must have been printed 30 years ago because the pages were all yellow and cracking and printing looked like it was done in the seventies.

She said I would have to renew it every year and the fee was 1200 baht, not 400 baht as mentioned earlier. I asked about the five year extension and she said it was possible, and then proceeded to give me only a one year permit. Not sure what that was about...

I don't imagine you'll have any queueing at this stage because not many people come there for that purpose. If I can repeat an earlier original warning: if you are doing this at a small upcountry branch they may have to send to Bangkok for blank books which can cost you more time.

I'll also note that I did these processes without any accompanying Thai, but with hindsight, even though I read and speak Thai I might suggest bringing a pushy secretarial type with you...

3) Adding your name to a House Registration

This is the most frustrating so far. Having seen my girlfriend smoothly transfer herself to my house registration -- as Jao Bahn no less -- in 10 minutes, I didn't anticapte the hassle.

I own my condo, but since my gf is the "Jao Bahn" I had to drag her along too. As many people mentioned in earlier postings, if you rent a condo/house, this is where you might have all kinds of issues, especially if the official Jao Bahn is overseas.

After the obligatory queuing at Yannawa distract office, the gruff officer demanded a whole pile of extra photocopies and delighted in telling me I could not use any photcopier in plain sight, and to use a the private photocopying shop outside. When we returned 15 minutes later, telling him there was no such shop, at that point he mentioned the nearest place to do photocopies was at Tesco Lotus -- a taxi ride away. When we returned, they had closed for lunch. So one obvious warning is to always be armed with multiple signed photocpies of every page of everything. As I found, if you fail to photocopy an irrelevant blank page, they'll send you back for that.

Next I learned that they have to investigate the alien before adding them to the house registration. If you like, they can post the letter to immigration and wait for the posted reponse. That takes a month, so I'm sure everyone will simply play courier themselves.

So within a few days of receiving your residence permit, it ends up back in Immigration where they hold it for another 3-4 working days before you can take the approval letter back to he District office again. At this point I will have to drag 2 Thai witnesses to be interviewed -- during their working day no less.

When that is finally done, I can go back to Immigration one more time, and get my residence permit endorsed and get my multiple reentry permit done, so I can finally resume my work and my life...

It would be churlish to complain about all this compared to the hassles of others. But be forewarned that getting the residence permit is only the beginning of a lot of paperwork hassles....

A useful update and a reminder:

1) I went down to immigration today to collect my residence permit. I didn't have any letter of confirmation (I presume it went to my former employer who won't pass it on), merely the document on the Immigration website that showed my name was in the list of approved candidates.

They had no objection to processing my residence permit without the letter. They simply cross checked my name with their lists.

2) I came with a cheque for 191,400 but they would not accept it as it was a cheque drawn on my bank account as opposed to a cashier's cheque. Apparently the civil service never accepts personal cheques. Since getting a cashier's cheque requires taking cash out of the bank, they reckoned the easiest thing for me was to simply withdraw the fee in cash and come back tomorrow morning at 08:30 AM (before banks open)

CDB

My name was also on that list. Like Skippybangkok I did it myself with only a little help from secretaries and admin people -- no lawyers or consultants involved.

I wonder about people saying there are no real benefits other than peace of mind:

* I don't need to have four Thais and 2 million baht of registered capital for my work permit. Considering I intend to work at multiple companies including some start-ups, with work permits needed for each position, that is a rather large benefit.

* When I asked at the Toyota showroom about buying a car on credit, the lady confirmed that as a single farang without residence, I would have to pay a larger downpayment - around 20%, but with PR I could get the same tiny deposit as offered to Thais (I may not want to buy that way, but it is nice to know)

* I own two condos but I am thinking of selling one to free up cashflow. Now I have the choice of getting a mortgage on it. I can buy new condos without fronting up the cash, if I want to.

* I will apply for Thai citzenship in five years, and there are obvious benefits of that in terms of owning companies, owning land and being a director of a public company.

I applied for PR in December 2005 and got preliminary approval in January 2007 from Immigration, pending the minister's approval. I see people who got approval a few month's earlier were approved in May. My best guess for final approval was June, but we're now at mid-June and still not a peep from anyone.

Is there anyone else here in the same boat -- class of Dec 2005, approved Jan 2007 (prelim) and still waiting for that final notice...?

CDB

As someone who has just gotten PR, I am interested in the next step as soon as possible.

A quick question about timings. I have seen conflicting reports about when I am allowed to apply for citizenship. I have lived here for 14 years, paid lots of tax for more than 10 consecutive years, but have only just gotten PR. Do I have to wait 5 years more before applying? or can I try straight away?

I am male, 39, with a son.

In the past you could appeal the normal waiting period to the Minister of Interior if you felt there was a case why should be considered early. Is that still an option? Also, is it worth having "influential" people be the two sponsors/witnesses for your application?

Thanks for any insight on this...

You forgot to mention "and willing to accept the absurdly low rates that Agoda wants to pay"

I had a quick search through the forums and didn't see an answer to what I suppose is an obvious question:

Can farangs with permanent residence get finance packages over 4-5 years on buying a new vehicle? Or how about asking one of the Thai banks for a loan if you have banked for many years with them and have a good credit history?

I suppose I am guessing that the answer is yes. If so, are there good deals going around now for buying typical Japanese cars on finance?

* I sometimes see some low advertised rates, but is that on an amortizing or non amortizing basis?

* Will I get a better deal from a bank by, for example, letting them hold a condo title deed (and assuming MRR will come down)?

As you can see I am a compete newbie to this...

And what'll car insurance cost for the typical Japanese cars?

Thanks....

In calculating the value of second hand vehicles, you also have to take into account the possibility to gain revenue by transporting stuff for cash, and/or the savings made comparing in daily commutes compared to taxis and other forms of transport.

If you have ever paid someone to rent a pick-up for a day I doubt you paid less because the pickup was older... Since the cost of labor is low, the cost of using second hand vehicles for transportation is mainly for rent of vehicle.

That's one reason you don't see cars and trucks fall to a rump value of say 40,000. If that was the case, there would be great ROI on buying a cheap vehicle and getting paid for transporting people or stuff. Alternately you could live in Nonthaburi, get a five year loan to pay for the cost, and petrol money from your colleage and save in money and convenience over other forms of transport.

The depreciation of vehicles over time is perfectly logical based on functionality and utility. It is the UK/US market that is illogical from that standpoint!

Reading these posts, there is permanent downbeat feel overall that buying a condo is a bad idea for farangs. It seems that as long as there have been forums here they have been filled with naysayers. Strangely, the experience of real people (not professional investors) has been much better.

For example, I'll give you my case. I was renting in Narathiwat soi 24 (off Sathorn) in what is the oldest shabbiest building -- Fortune Condotown 2. Eventually the building was sold off and renters were offered units. So I bought a 2 bed place (98 square meters) place on a high floor overlooking the pool and Bangkok Garden, for 31,000 per square meter. Some of my considerations were:

* It was already ten years old so the price was not going to drop as second hand after I had lived in it

* The condos were 95-100% full, mixed Thai/Chinese/Indian/Korean/Farang but not totally dependent on expats.

* The condition/maintenance of the building and common areas had actually improved over time

* The unit I chose was in a location that had an okay view, high floor, and more importantly there was no room to build anything in front of it.

* Narathiwat road is a new road and is gradually becoming more developed

* At that time there were no significant transfer fees, the sinking fund was fully paid up, common fees were low (and the first year was free)

* Price included free furniture (fridge, aircons, sofas)

Four years later, I have gradually replaced the aircons, floors, furnishing and generally improved the liveability. This is what I see

* Judging by the units around me, I can sell for 35%+ more than what I bought for. Units do not stay on the market for long.

* Rentals for similar units are 25-33,000 THB per month depending on condition and furniture. Thrown in some nice furniture and it will easily rent for 30 K. That's a 12% return per annum on what I paid and 9% on current value. Compare that to the silly 5-6% rental return on fancy grade A stuff

* The building is currently being repainted from top to bottom and they are putting in a Gym. Starbucks opened downstairs and the common areas have more greenery than before. It's still an old building but it's not deteriorating. Due the 100% occupancy, there is always money to upgrade without exorbitant common fees.

* The BRT will connect the transit system to the condo shortly.

So I didn't pay Sukhumvit premium pricing; I didn't buy a flashy grade A condo. Like many normal families I just bought a second hand Grade B in a building I knew was managed okay and in an area I liked. I didn't pay any lawyers or real estate professionals either, just checked everything myself.

In four years, I have saved 1.3+ million in rent and the apartment has appreciated by 1 million+. That's nearly what I paid for it. At the same time, Bangkok Bank loaned me 2 million against the title deed at SME rates. I don't use the overdraft now, but it's nice to have that line of credit as I need it. (This illutrates the importance of having a Freehold place in your own name -- you wouldn't get that credit without a title deed).

And since the baht has appreciated against major currencies, I have already recouped my investment in dollar terms. The thing is, there are many other people like me who buy an average unit in an average location. At the end of the day it doesn't even matter what the resale value is. I am here for the long term and I don't have to pay the rising rents and that alone covers the cost of the purchase. After being kicked around by former landlords, I not only have peace of mind, I don't have the costs and nuisance of moving every time the rents are raised.

What's the worst case scenario: I suppose that all hel_l breaks out in Thailand. So in that case, I can simply grab my overdraft in full and leave the country and let them repossess.

This is the experience of many people who are buying to live, not make a quick buck. Given that the equity markets are so unpredictable and that interest rates are low on savings accounts it's not such a bad choice, is it?

If I were buying primarily to invest, the key factor I would look at is sustainable rental returns. In that sense, it's easier to "tart up" a grade B unit, than keep a grade A unit up to standard.

But of course actions like this will not make any money for real estate professionals....

At http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/base....;section=notice

There is a notice of "The list applicants of residential permit (non-quota) passed the preliminary consideration of the Immigration Commission and also approval of The Minister of Interior in March, 20 2007"

Only 123 people are listed so it seems that the letters are being handed out in stages. I was in the last batch of people from the "class ot december 2005" to be approved, getting my approval in January. So I suppose that I am some others will still be at least a few weeks away from getting our letters.

Actually since they post names and the list of documents required, it seems that we can go in once our name appeares on the website rather than waiting for the letter to arrive. This is particularly useful for those of us who have changed jobs or addresses since the application was made.