fruittbatt

"Admittedly whether it was bought, borrowed or stolen the result however would appear to be the same."

Yeah, and an inquiring mind might wonder, why did she take a shootin' iron to dinner.

I don't want to join in the idle speculation of those who have nothing better to do than take cheap shots (no pun intended) at any of the parties involved in this tragedy. However, you might be interested in the report in the Chiang Mai Mail online which states that the gun was brought to the restaurant by the deceased. This report, like all others so far contains contradictions and biased accounts.

Is there any need for the expat community to buy into the same sensationalism as the press in this forum? I can only agree with Mich who said earlier that there are more productive, helpful ways in which we could direct our imagination and efforts. We could spend some time considering the positions of the two women who are grieving (and probably deeply regretful in the case of Margaret Crane) over the tragedy, and the children left without their mother or father. Those "enquiring minds" might then be prompted to ask questions like "How can I help?" or "Does this forum provide a basis for community that could work in some way to provide support to isolated expats with unbearable burdens?" (I'm thinking here of Margaret Crane but there are no doubt many others who would be glad to tap into a support network - even if it was just a friendly word from an anonymous member). Worth a thought?

The children are taken care of. Friends brought her a mat to sleep on yesterday. we are trying to get the info we need to try and get her the best help.

My sister told me that Kim Pate of the Elizabeth Fry Society in Canada is a well-known solicitor and advocate on behalf of women in prison. I don't know whether she can help here, but perhaps she would have some influence with Thai authorities & work with Canadian consulate?? Just a thought, and congratulations to you and others who are working so hard to help Jeanna/Margaret.

The children are taken care of. Friends brought her a mat to sleep on yesterday. we are trying to get the info we need to try and get her the best help.

It's great to hear what y'all have been doing to help, and to hear how others also can empathise with the suffering and stress Jeanna & her children must be experiencing Please PM me if there's anything I can do

Update:

Thai police say Canadian woman admits killing her American husband

BANGKOK: -- A 48-year-old British Columbia woman in northern Thailand has admitted shooting dead her American common-law husband after arguing over family affairs, police said Tuesday.

Margaret Crane of Victoria was arrested Sunday by police after allegedly killing George Patrick Dubie, 52, a freelance journalist, in the northern city of Chiang Mai.

Witnesses told police the couple met at a restaurant in downtown Chiang Mai, about 580 kilometres north of Bangkok, and were having a heated argument when the woman pulled out a pistol and fired three shots before fleeing in a car.

Police later apprehended her.

"She admitted that she did it because she was angry and under pressure," said police Lieut. Ben Wongkrua. He described Crane as a housewife.

Police, who earlier misidentified Dubie as a Canadian, also said Crane told them that Dubie had beaten her and had affairs with other women.

Ben said Crane was being held on a charge of premeditated murder, for which she could face the death penalty.

--canada.com 2006-07-05

It seems that regardless of Margaret Crane/Jeanna Hart's guilt or innocence, she and her family could do with some practical and moral support right now. Is there anyone in Chiang Mai who knows where she is being held or how her kids are getting on. I'd be happy to pitch in and seek to co-operate with any others who may already be doing so.

And let's not forget the MILLIONS of Thai gals who choose not to work in bars to "support their families," and so forth (and whatever other romantic reasons the punters here like to give in support of bargirls..... saving the rainforest, developing Issan real estate, etc.), but instead choose to work in factories, as waitresses, and every other conceivable low paying job AND STILL manage to send money home (ever try going to the post office on the 1st of the month?).

Why do you judge sex-work as being somehow less valuable than other, lower-paid forms of work? Why should women do lower-paid jobs when they can earn more? Does it matter what part of your body you use to make money? I think there is a lot of unthinking Victorian morality and double-standards emerging from prudish comments like this.

Heng,

You're right in some ways...but, I wager many of these MILLIONS of Thai gals who chose not to work in bars do "the same kind of work" on the side, just not in bars. Seen it a lot myself.

I've seen it a lot myself as well. They are no different than the professionals. I wouldn't include them in the group that aren't prostitutes.

Makes one wonder, just what percentage of Thai females are willing to "rent" thier bodies...especially since so many of them are so beautiful and sexy to most Farangs.

I think a lot of farangs who marry bargirls like to wishfully extrapolate that most Thai gals are bargirls of some sort. It takes away (or so they think) from the stigma of selecting a prostitute as a life or temporary partner. But I don't mean that in a condescending way, by the way. Just feel that it unfairly paints Thai girls who aren't prostitutes of any sort.

Could be, although I see no negative stigma of prostitutes...not the "Poo" kind of course, but the large population of them. Just working girls, like any other. I made the ealier comment mainly because almost every Thai woman I encounter, except the older married ones, seems to be "available" in various degrees, much the same as in the bars...just not as obvious or visible.

I would have no issue whatsoever with having a bar girl as a wife, just another job.

Prostitution (and it's subsequent morals and ethics) is a chicken and egg conundrum.....

Which came first?  The prostitutes or the punters?

My guess would be the punters came first - roll time back to the time of the cavemen and you'd probably find that rape was fairly frequent - dominant male with harem situation seen today in troupes of chimpanzees and the larger apes etc.

Add a few millennia to evolve from homo erectus to homo sapiens and the thinking females would have realised they could benefit from the birthing hole they carry, thus was born the oldest profession.

Pretty difficult to stop, or to moralise about, something that men and women have done since they became sentient.  Consider the proliferation of dating and marriage agencies in the last 50 years - they're serving a community-need, born out of today's lifestyle pressures - we now work more hours per year than at any time in history, leaving little time for finding a mate.

Prostitution in the Thai style builds on that by providing a release for the male's pent up sexual energy - as said in a movie or TV series once - "if you want something from a man, empty his balls first - because you can't do anything with him when they're full" - still seems to hold true and is why the old office jokes about spotting who "got it" the night before began.

When all's said and done, farangs should remember they did not invent prostitution or hostessing in Thailand - a Chinese admiral in the 1420's logged that "the only way fully please the Siamese hosts was to sleep with the wives they offered to us" and that comes to the oft quoted statistic that the farang targetted prostitution scene in Thailand is less than 1% of the total industry ...... if you think you're making a significant contribution to the economy - think again.

How can western males, coming from countries where prostitution has been outlawed for a century or so, hope to outwit the sweet Siamese sirens with centuries of cultural practice?  Answer - they can't!  Accept it and live with it.  We may have education-led intelligence on our side, but they've got street and bar smarts wisdom on theirs, something we can never equal no matter how long we stay here.

yes, there's no way that it could have evolved to the level it is at here if there weren't cultural underpinnings in place for centuries previously. thai men, even ones without enough money, buy sex A LOT. we can all thank them for the AIDS problem here.

as for the contributions to the thai economy by foreign "punters" (nice euphamism!), i wish there were a way to measure how much money is deposited in upcountry bank accounts or is spent on gambling, clothes, and partying by massage girls, gogo-girls, etc. every year in this country. alas, we will most likely never know...

is it really matter of "outwitting" them? if you don't want to buy sex, then stay away from them (easier said than done nowadays in bkk) or tell them "bye bye" depending on the answer to the question "khun tam ngan arai?"....

Talking about the so-called "cultural underpinnings" of prostitution in Thailand denies the importance of recent sex-imperialist history. Thailand's destination as an "R & R" destination for US troops during the Vietnam war in the 1970s undoubtedly gave a massive impetus to the sex-industry.

i don't know which stupefies me more; the endless parade of idiot foreigners here who get themselves involved like this with low-life prostitutes, or the larger picture of how much the economy of this country is BUILT on prostitution. it truly BOGGLES the mind...

You mean you've never considered that prostitution exists because of the demand by the over-cashed blue-diamond brigade tourists, both local and farang, for "exotic" and cheap sex? You mean you've never examined the underlying attitudes to women that people like the blue diamond brigade perpetuate in this country? You mean that you don't understand the financial incentives for women to become prostitutes in the first place? Maybe you would prefer that all women stayed vituously poor and exploited as appendages of a sewing machine behind the closed doors of a clothing factory? Prostitutes are not "low-life" they are women trying to gain a better life for themselves and their families/children. Maybe it speaks volumes about this tragic swede that Poo found it necessary to conceal her true situation from him? think about it....