thaifamilyguy

Ok anybody on Samui have gotten rid of the birds once they have decided to invade your home at will? I ready to look for a pellet gun somewhere, have a pair that has terrorized us for about a year. Seriously, I'd have brought on in to Thailand if I thought I could, just one that shoot plastic to hit them a few times maybe that would work.

This has been a very good temperature check on this issue, bottom line for me at the moment is that

1. buying property in Thailand has a cap based on risk vs. value. Given property values worldwide some of what I have looked at here has me thinking there is a sweet spot there that I would be willing to put funds at risk both just for personal enjoyment and the potential that might beat other investment options right now over next 10 years.

2. Second, would be best to take over an existing corporate structure to leave the title undisturbed and investigate further unsafruct/altenative structures a bit more. But now is not the time to start an entirely new structure and be down at the property office! I am not sure if that means I am limiting myself to expat sellers just yet.

3. The 30 year lease is not entirely a bad thing, could be marketable enough if looked at it as a 10 year window and the right place (and right price). At minimum any purchase would include a 30 year lease, one approach might if a Thai Seller, do 30 year lease in own name on day one, get registered, then on day two purchase with company structure. Might bring down price of property as one would think it reduced by 30 year lease, but separately the lease would be the insurance as fully "legal" even if company ran into trouble. In selling, can always sell the lease/company as a bundle.

I can say based on 20 years around Asia, Thailand does not have legitimacy in my mind to justify respect of whatever rules they choose to enforce. When my family gets treated "by the rules" at immigration, maybe I'lll have to reconsider. Corruption here is institutional and enforcement is selective. Thus calculations are personal risk assessments not moral obligations.

To all those that have Thai spouses and so do not have to deal with this issue, good for you, but I wonder what you would be doing if you didn't?

Thanks to all those participating in the thread.

wjs

Dear Phronesis,

Thanks for your very detailed reporting, I think you need to just put on a serious filter and ignore all the replies not on point. I believe there are sufficient number of resonable persons that use this forum that you will get some value.

I was reviewing this as my children are on educational visas at an international school w/my wife getting a dependant visa off of that. I travel quite a bit for work so the 30 day limit has never been a problem. So it all works for us. I appears rather clearly that our scenario will not be effected, there is a very long tradition of such international schools for "safe harbor" family placements going waaay back.

But as to your position, it woudl appear to me that Thailand appears to be trending the way of other countries that use to be friendlly to expats having "informal" residency, use to be able to get a one year multiple entry visa into China 10 years ago just on knowing the right person, those days are long gone and China is now really closing its doors. Part nationalism part misplaced belief that the expats are taking away local's oppportunities.

In Thailand, I would not be at all surprised to see an effective effort to kill off the nominee companies holding property, etc. gthis has been my focus as really I would rather own a place here than pay rent, but I have yet to see a situation where buying makes sence adn the condo options are really way over priced and marketed to those that do not know any better.

Thus I would recomend that you stay very flexible to ride out your situatioon to retirement. It may be matter of relocating in Thailand, or giving another location in Thailand a go, or if you could pick up some sort of legit job, perhaps teaching english?

In the meantime I appreciate your postings as they are clearly well sourced. best of luck

So getting back on topic, to sum up here:

1. It appears its always been the policy not to permit foreigners to own land or control land for more than 30years through a lease. Neither is a policy that has been thought-out from the foreigners/foreign investment perspective.

2. Corruption not legitimate loopholes is the only reason this not enforced.

3. Thus anybody putting substantial sums (whatever that may be for an individual case) at risk has been playing off the fact that there has been

no enforcement, either because its been neglected or no system that would work, or again, corruption.

4. The proposed new rules would not change the ban on foreigners, just cleverly find ways to enforce, by targeting the Thai firms and a whistleblower provision.

There could be some remedies to permit a healthy expat investment market (how many thai's want to buy little plots with 2 bedroom houses in Phukett/Samui, etc.????) but that is NOT what is in the news at this point. What is in the news in ONE GUY, regardless of his position, throwing out his wishlist. It needs to become genuine legislation and it needs to have effective backers. That process is likely to sustantially delay and change to the "threat."

The Ombudsman's problem is that he created enemies right up front by saying firms advising on this would face criminal prosecution, if this is persuasive then I would think those firms are going to want to kill this and I would expect it is notjust a few "bad apples." It will be interesting to see how it proceeds or if it proceeds as corruption's #1 effect is always delay +/- killing it off vs. amending to something actually workable.

5. Nobody in the forum has fessed up to actually owning this way...unless the off topic rants are the signals?

it would seem to me that like the change in Thai spouses being able to buy property I had not known about, there will be a carve-out of some sort, perhaps on the Malaysian model, before any blanket enforcement. The issue of course is what that carve out would be. In mainland china an expat can buy one residence if he is there on a residence visa, for example (though everybody never sells but rents). It would be pretty simple to distinguish rice farmers from Thai sellers of tiny unproductive vacation plots at exhorb. prices.

So it would appear that until there is a clear route to ownership, best not build on a foundation of sand. All the more so as I would suspect the nominee structure is an expensive annual expense, w/ annual audits, etc. just to own the property...illegally.

Anybody actually disagree?

I actually find this all rather fascinating as I am sitting here over last year deciding whether I want to take the obvious risk in buying anything as I hate throwing rent away.

I have been listening for a year about how owning property is illegal but tolerated if all you doing is buy a vacation home and do the dance on the structuring. Now quite possibly could be serious collateral damage from the rice farmers agenda.

Is the real issue here is how does all that expat-owned property get priced now? When legislation proposed, and then when legislation passed? Nice time to be Thai, I would think as there are going to be a hell of a lot of radioactive properties?

And does somebody step in at last minute to add carve out for our sort of profile? If had to own in personal name and can only own one property, for residential, x size, etc., there should be lots of ways of making it work.

Funny story in the USA when the rage was that the Japanese were buying up all the US property and there were calls for protectionism, Ronald Reagan famously told his advisors..."Well, its good they think the US is such a good investment..." Of course the Japanese all ended up buying at the height of the market and selling later as significant loss..back to Americans...

To get back on topic

So people in denial here? How many foreignors have put them in positions of "owning" through structures that are not defensible? It would appear that no one would have avoided the formality of shares being properly allocated between Foreign and local on the books, so is this about going behind that?

Of course the fact that Phuket was previously investigated makes it appear to be that only a cursory review involved, all corruption aside.

If I have it right, everybody seems to ultimately default to, "there are too many of us, they could never enforce the law..." Or as in Casablanca:

Rick: How can you close me up? On what grounds?

Captain Renault: I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!

[a croupier hands Renault a pile of money]

Croupier: Your winnings, sir.

Captain Renault: [sotto voce] Oh, thank you very much.

[aloud]

Captain Renault: Everybody out at once!

Or am I missing something?

yes was going to but will now go in and jump up an down tomorrow to say that is what I want done, other tests are secondary! Thanks. Unfortunately, since we had to wait for the serum to come in from Bangkok for the skin tests, I bet they do but only back in Bangkok as I know the equip for same is not cheap so they would want much bigger volume coming through to do it. Ayway, yes will ask and let you know!

Wonder if should start new thread on this as title is not really the topic but I not khow how to do.

The Update is that contrary to the experiences above, our helper was treated very much as an outpatient from the start, I now realize they would never have admitted her anyway as they not want to deal with HP infection if she has it.

That meant that she was given containers to do samples over three days, first thing in the morning, and then bring into the Hospital, on day 4 she met with the DR who said the tests were all negative but given her other symptoms and history, she should go get a second opinion. I now know from my own education that the samples should have been brought in w/in an hour of being done. The helper decided that after coughing up into the container each morning, she needed to eat breakfast, nap, and then go in, so 2-3 hours later. I did NOT bother figuring out whether they told her 1 hour or she forgot/didn't listen, but a real education on the public health challenge in dealing with this and the value of being in-patient/controlled environment.

I immediately took her to our international hospital but the next step is getting new sputum samples done, which I now will pick up and deliver.

For all my controlling behavior over this, incompetance still found a way! Given her other symptoms and history, I did get the first Dr. to tell me she thinks she has TB, but the sputum test is what they do, its done, now she is refered onward. I am sure that was all that was gong to happen regardless, which raises the question of why the referral wasn't made in the first place.

The poor woman has now gone a week without any real treatment at all and feeling terrible, we may need to go ahead and get her into the public hospital tomorrow so that she can at least get care and rest. Though I continue to expect worse-case.

Many thanks for your information, yes my concern is because there very much an active cough, children are under 5 etc., my concern about the strain is also very much on the issue of resistence. Again, on the medical treatment front we have been on a steep and continuous learning curve.

I have confirmed that the International hosptial we use has series of tests they can do and have actually prepared already for her to do one more sputum sample for the whole range of tests. After reading this thread I decided to just make an appointment for myself and go in and grill the Dr: they treat on outpatient basis, have the tests, etc., So will use them not the public hospital unless it reaches level that she needs hospitalization, etc.

Its possible the problem the guy was having with the hospital was not that he was going to leave, but that he wanted to go to a hotel, vs., own apartment, etc. Though I can also see the point about insurance. The Dr. I talked to was adamant about the person being isolated for 2 weeks and testing, but the idea in own apartment is fine. Makes sense as really casual contact out an dabout is not the risk.

More as this proceeds.

SITUATION we have a Philipina helper that I am rather certain will be diagnosed with Pulmonary TB shorlty, it most likely a reoccurance due to failing to take her drugs years ago. We only came aware of any of this when sent her to Dr after two days of her feeling bad. Luckily she is on an Education visa and not need to leave the country until August so has a window of opportunity here to get started and stablized without that added crisis. FIRST LESSON - Anyone hiring domestic help, ask about potential and demand a chest xray as part of hire!

We are paying for her to be diagnosed at a small international hospital and they appear to be following the proper approach, with confirmation of whether she has it and how bad soon.

I don't know whether to start a new thread or just respond to this one, but I appreciate the moderator being knowledgeable on this and perhaps has new information from when this discussion began. Feel free to edit/move etc. ALL REPLIES COMMENTS APPRECIATED

MY QUESTIONS -

1. It woudl appear the most efficient approach here is that she acccess the public health providers here vs. private hospitals as they are competant to give her the necessary care at this stage. Anyone have experience about this beyond the above discussion that woudl like to share on do's and don'ts?

2. Does anyone know any risks she takes in accessing public system as a foreignor?

3. IS Hospitalization for active TB required, I note the discussion above that people were presenting for other things, but nobody seems to know if its just a bad case of active TB, there would be hospitalization. It would seem to me that it necessary if drugs need to be given by IV, etc.

4. I assume her next obvious step will be to return to the Philipines where TB program is extensive and free to her. HOWEVER - I want to be absolutely sure we have all the information on her condition before she disappears and also all additional tests that the public system may not do (both for her and for us). Does anybody know if the public system goes that far?

COMMENT - I greatly appreciate that point abou the private hospital grabbing ahold of somebody and not letting them go, I am not at all surprised and I am certain that if the guy DIDN'T have the right insurance, he would have been out in a week. Our helper presented herself at an int'l hospital, no insurance adn they have had her coming in each day to give samples and just told her to avoid people, but xray and history/symptoms sceam TB. I am now better prepared for the diagnosis confirmation and "what next"

An entirely separate discussion is on my family's treatment plan as a result of her having TB and for that I feel we have plenty of professional & international resources to sort out. We will be accessing the Int'l hosptial but luckily none of us show any signs of being active, the children all had the vaccine at birth, but we also well aware of the recomendated treatment regimines which we will be following. We also will get further specialized advice outstde of Thailand.

CONSENSUS - children with member of household exposure to active Pulmonary TB person should go on profolactic antibiotic treatment, just accept it, the vaccine not effective against pulmonary and negative skin tests too often false, children under 5 simply not have immune system to fight it as well as older persons. So its not the false postives that are the issue, its the false negatives, particularly in this sort of situation. It sucks, really sucks but especially with the resistant strains around here, TB is a killer.

The SECOND CONSENSUS - appears to be to ensure that the EXACT strain of the TB is identified and this will take MONTHS of cultures (one for ea. avail drug, I believe), the reason being that up to 90% of people never show symptoms of having contracted until a major health event, so could very easily take a drug for 6 months, stop and it not tell you anything. My scenario I am going to run at various experts is, latent TB so take x drug for, hell , a year if nec., but then get result that the TB exposed to is highly resistent to the drug just took. No TB symptoms, gee great, but that not because of any treatment, just lucky on the odds. Then goes active later, THEN tests done, and gee sorry about that, the drug we had you take for a year lulled you into thinking you fine.