Michael Hare

and where is the location?

It is located near the new Ubonratchathani's city hall on Chaeng Sanit rd.

I think I will believe Chris first as the location is in Ubon. The Trakan Zoo may be the upgrading of the Tiger Zoo. I have fond memories of the new location for Ubon's new City Hall. That is where the Ubon Forage station used to be. In 1977 I had several forage seed fields there. When I returned to Ubon in 1994 I put down research trials at the station next to main road. Now it is the entrance way for the court house. The forage station is located in Amnart where I currently have field research trials selecting new forage species for the tropics. I hope in the open zoo the animals are able to walk and lie down on good grasses.

Ubon used to have a zoo next to the Army hospital in Warin.

Ok, so build a 2 meter high wallk limke many Farangs.

Or a hedge.

It's better for everyone as I like to be au naturel.

Or at the very least, not have my property gawked at by every curious somchai and tittiporn.

You may also notice so many of the locals build their house at the very back of their land, so everyone can see how much land they have.

Personally I prefer semi-private front and back gardens for myself and my family.

I too like private back gardens which are twice the size of front gardens. Back gardens that are cool and shaded and face northeast. I will attach a photo of my back garden in Ubon. With regard to hedges, I have cut hundreds of meters of hedges back in my home country of NZ. Hedges that were 2 metres high that required stepladders to trim the sides and top. Hedges that keep animals out, but would not be good in Thailand to keep snakes out (There are no snakes in NZ). Therefore, in Thailand I prefer a concrete external wall with internal shrubs and hedges to soften the hard look.

If I were a Thai I would be doing anything I could to get out of rice farming (and many are) .My wife has 8 Rai and makes about ฿20 000.- a year, she doesn't work out fertiliser costs and so on. This works out at ฿2500.- a Rai for a first class product. Very hard work, sleeping out in the fields this year to make sure nobody steals the irrigation equipment.

She has heard of Farangs paying ฿500 000.- for a Rai (Buriram), she too cannot understand prices like this unless some building is planned. They were offering ฿16.2 /Kg yesterday and nobody seemed to be selling. Even this low price is subsidised by the government and could well drop when they get tired of paying billions a year for too much rice.

I run an international forage seed business based here in Ubon Ratchathani. We have to compete with South American seeds and also the price farmers get for cassava here in Thailand. Thus, when I try to calculate a price per kg to pay the farmers I want the Thai farmers to make a minimum of 10,000 baht/rai net after deducting their expenses etc. Unfortunately, our forages will not grow on flooded land used to plant rice so we can not compare our prices with rice prices. Still, receiving 2,500 baht/rai is very very poor indeed.

I run a small grass seed business. My major problem is that many farmers don't honour the contract. Sign contract in March, we give out free nursery seed and in May they plant cassava because the price is going to be 3 baht/kg. Of course they end up getting about 2.40-2.60 baht/kg for their cassava which means they get about 50% less than if they had planted my grass seed crops. Cap in hand they then ask for a grass seed contract next year. Which I won't give to them because they are not trustworthy. We are here for the next 30 years or more with guaranteed prices, free nursery seed and fertiliser in advance which we deduct the price of at seed purchase. Beats cassava any day.

From little knowledge that I have, Vietnam does not allow cars from Thailand into Vietnam. Only some trucks. But you can drive your Lao car to Vietnam. I have been to Vietnam many times. If you think driving in Thailand is difficult, think again. Vietnam is 100 times worse. This is probably the reason Vietnam doesn't allow right hand cars into their country. Too risky.

He needs our prayers. I think that is about the best we can do. I am deeply sorry for your friend and his family but maybe he has had a good and happy life and now it is coming to an end.

Hi Michael; happy to welcome you to the forum. Thanks for your explanation and comments.

The other half of my pastures were planted with some ruzi and mostly purple guinea. All my pastures were on undulating hills with good drainage and very poor water retention. The purple guinea was advised at the time since the roots grow deep (depth of roots equal to the height of the grass before first cut/graze). The nursery was out of these and therefore sold me atratum in full knowledge of the Mae Wong district location and knowing why I wanted purple guinea…but this is Thailand!

We continue to try to eradicate clumps of atratum having given up cattle farming something like 7 or 8 years ago. We cross-plough with a 7-disc harrower, raise ridges, spray Sumisoya pre-emergence, paraquat before cassava is 6 month old, and glyphosate after 6 month where necessary. We also use the much deeper 5-disc plough every second cultivation-cycle. We are still doing this. We also pull as much as possible manually. So I’m surprised to read that it’s not difficult to eradicate. I don’t think we’ve tried 24D (don’t recall hearing of it) so I’ll try that next time.

Rgds

Khonwan

Good evening Khonwan.

Maybe you planted Paspalum plicatulum instead of Paspalum atratum? 15 to 20 years ago the DLD were producing tonnes of plicatulum seed to distribute in swampy areas of southern Thailand. Hard to eradicate and livestock are generally very reluctant to eat it at all. It can become an aggressive weed.

Now you are into cropping, probably cassava, my main competitor for grass seed production. I hate the plant, cassava that is. But I won't bore you with those details today.

Try 24D. It takes about 5 days for the plants to curl over and die.

Regards,

Michael Hare

Hello Michael

You sure know your stuff I agree with most of the things you posted exept the fact about the grass's being dead I've used it without problems for near on 12 years now

Up unlill this year I've grown grass on my 50 rai for my sheep farm I normally put in 5 rai of jumbo ( elephant) grass for my first crop at the start of the rains I get 3 cuts off this then usually let the sheep on it to graze put the remains

I then put in my main crops 20 rai each of Guinea and a Rosie hamat mix

The guinea I sow harvest and replant 50 cm apart this way I get a good evenly spaced crop that's easy to cut I can normally carry my Guinea crop through the dry season with monthly watering and get 3 years of use before replanting so my 20 rai plot is split into 3 on a rotation

My Rosie and Hamata plot 20 rai I sow every year even with watering I can't seem to get it growing back the following year with any where near the quality of the first year this grass I cut half and make silage out of the rest

I also have a 5 rai plot of low land where I've planted hamatam again I'm going on local names this grass likes the marshy type of conditions and has come back every year now for the last 6 years I use it as a stand by becouse I don't think it's as good as the rest the sheep will eat it in the pen but avoid it if I graze them on it

There was a missunderstanding ( my fault) about the "sack " the Guinea and Hamata seeds are sold in 5 kilo sealed bags and the jumbo in 2 kilo bags the bags where kept in a large sack

The Rosie seed though was loose

I hope this clears thing up

Good evening Surin Steve,

I am pleased to know that the forage seeds in Surin are at less packed in plastic-sealed bags. This will prolong the life of the seed for a few months. You obviously have had considerable success.

What concerns me though is the short life of your perennial pastures. With good management, these pastures should last for 10 years or more.

Rosie must be ruzi grass. This brachiaria species disappeared years ago from most tropical countries because of its lack of persistence and low drought tolerance. Thailand is the only country continuing its production because ruzi grass seed is easy to harvest and therefore relatively cheap.

I would like you to try our superior hybrid brachiaria, Mulato II, which is a three way cross producing a high quality forage with extremely good drought tolerance. And then sow it with our perennial Ubon stylo legume and you will be presented with wonderful dry season pasture that in many places does not even require dry season irrigation.

Our Thai website is at http://info.agri.ubu.ac.th/~ubuforage/stylo

Hamata stylo is a short-lived biennial species that extends its life by seeding freely in the Jan to March period. In the mid 1970s on a World Bank Livestock Project, I promoted Hamata stylo to be oversown along roadsides throughout northeast Thailand where cattle and buffalo grazed the “long acre”. To this day, one can see Hamata stylo along roadsides but not being grazed. The buffalo have gone and locals in many villages keep their livestock in yards. So much for development!

I read that you use Jumbo sorghum (Sorghum bicolor x Sorghum sudanense) which is a Sorghum x sudan grass hybrid sold by Pacific Seeds. There are two cultivars in Thailand namely Jumbo and Sweet Jumbo. Be careful not to graze the young regrowth which can cause prussic acid poisoning. Jumbo is not elephant grass. Elephant grass is napier grass which is a popular grass for dairy farmers in Thailand. The best one currently is hybrid napier grass. All napier (elephant grasses) can only be planted by stems. They produce no viable seed.

http://www.tropicalforages.info/key/Forages/Media/Html/Pennisetum_purpureum.htm

In order to maintain perennial pastures for at least 10 years, I would strongly suggest you try a mixed Mulato II x Ubon stylo pasture. You will be as impressed as Chokchai Dairy Farms are.

The species you use for swampy areas must be Paspalum atratum which we call Ubon paspalum as a common name. Keep it short and leafy and it will be there for your sheep to nibble at in the dry season.

So Steve you are sheep farmer. I am suddenly home-sick for NZ. What do you do with your sheep? Sell to a local Indian community? Do you shear your sheep to keep them cool and prevent dags developing around their backsides or do you just let the wool fall off? I remember in 1975 being called up to shear the 20 head flock of sheep at Khon Kaen University Zoo. What a boney lot they were and with blunt hand shears it took me a few hours to cut the mangy wool of their backs. Still, after shearing they thrived.

Regards,

Michael Hare

Hello Michael, hope that you will stick around as it seems that you know your stuff.

Not quite on topic, but I feel relevant to your above post.....

I have found it extremely frustrating at times, buying new packets of seed and 0% germination. Fair enough if you keep a long time after opening, but really not on with a brand new packet.

I have found that the canned seeds are usually more reliable, but don't always want the larger quantities when just trying something out.

Is your area of expertese restricted to grasses and their seeds?

Hello Loong,

You caught me this evening, as I seemed to have received quite a few PM messages.

Yes, I can comment on other seeds as well. I presume you are asking about either vegetable or flower seeds, Probably the former.

Thailand is a hot and humid country. Seeds of many vegetables grown in Thailand (not all) are produced in temperate countries like NZ and Australia and then brought back to Thailand to be grown as fresh vegetables. This is because seed production of these vegetables is done more economically in these places. But the seeds must be put into sealed, vacuum-packed packets or into sealed vacuum packed cans to guard against high temperatures and high humidity destroying these seeds. I don't know if an expiry date is written on these packets or cans as I never buy these seeds, Please check.

I doubt if the local merchants selling these seeds really care about seed germination and whether or not the seed is old.

Buyer be aware.

Not much more advice I can give you on that except to say there are "a lot of crooks in the seed business".

I do know that the flower and vegetable seed business is a multi, multi million dollar industry for Thailand. Just huge.

That is where CP started from.

Regards,

Michael Hare

Good afternoon Surin Steve,

I was contacted by a colleague this morning who said I should respond to your interesting points.

I introduced myself on "Ya atratum" but briefly I run an international forage seed business from the Faculty of Agriculture Ubon Ratchathani University. I have been working with and conducting research on forage seeds for 40 years.

I was interested to read that in Surin seed is selling in a local shop being the following:

Guinea grass ordinary 120 bt per kilo

This may be either common roadside guinea (rubbish) or purple guinea (ok). But last year there was an extreme shortfall in purple guinea supply due to flooding and wet weather. Some merchants got wind of this and went to my contract farmers in Mukdahan and purchased unclean seed directly from the field. Really annoyed me. The problem is that this unclean seed has very low germination. Also guinea seed will die after storage in ordinary rooms within 6 months. It is now August and I would say the seed for sale in Surin is dead or close to it. Four years ago the Dept of Livestock Development produced nearly 800,000 kg of purple guinea seed in Thailand, most of which they couldn't sell. This seed has been drifting on to the market ever since. Pity the farmers that buy it.

Guinea purple giant 130 bt per kilo

This is probably Mombasa guinea, a cultivar introduced by me 3 years ago. We export to South America. Again, how this seed is for sale in Surin surprises me. It too, like purple, will probably be dead by now. We keep all our forage seeds in a room at 40C and 50% Relative humidity where they will survive for 3-4 years without any damage to germination. But usually all our seeds are sold with 6 months of harvest due to a world-wide storage.

Jumbo 150 bt per kilo

Jumbo is a forage sorghum produced by commercial seed companies like Pacific seeds in Thailand. It is an annual. No problem there.

Rosie and Hamata 100 bt per kilo

Rosie is probably Ruzi grass. Inferior to our Mulato II because of poor drought tolerance.

I first started commercial seed production of Hamata stylo in Thailand in 1976. A good roadside legume but not as productive as our Ubon stylo.

All on sale Lam Duan animal feed shop Surin yesterday sack fulls of the stuff

Sacks of the stuff depresses me. Only good to fed to chickens now because of low germination.

I must say I have thoroughly enjoyed reading some of the posts today.

Regards,

Michael Hare

Good afternnon Khonwan and Xen,

This morning I was contacted by a colleague who said that I should respond to two discussions on the Thai Visa forum that were in my field of interest-Yaa atratum and Grass Seed.

After reading these discussions I have decided to respond. It has been a learning experience just to sign in but here I am under my own name Michael Hare.

First of all I will introduce myself if I may. I am a New Zealander who came to Thailand in 1974 and I have been working since then on tropical forages and seeds. I am now based in the Faculty of Agriculture at Ubon Ratchathani University and I am now running a seed and research business with a Mexican Seed Company Tropical Seeds

http://www.tropseeds.com/

I am responsible for bringing "Ya Atratum" to Thailand in 1994. It is a swamp grass. It will grow in swamps where other improved forage grasses will not. it will tolerate waterlogging from August to October. Other good grasses usually die. We know about it being unpalatable but usually this is caused by letting it grow too rank. It should not grow above knee-height. Keep it leafy. More information can be found on these sites.

http://www.tropseeds.com/ubon-paspalum/

http://www.tropicalforages.info/key/Forages/Media/Html/Paspalum_atratum.htm

We produce about 10,000 kg of seed per year which is mainly exported to Guatemala and Mexico for use in swampy areas. The Dept of Livestock Development also produce Ubon paspalum but call it Ya atratum. Their seed quality is generally inferior to our seed.

Ubon paspalum is not an aggressive grass but if you let it seed then the plants can spread from fallen seeds. We have never found it a problem to eradicate. Ploughing and discing usually does the trick but failing that, spray Roundup or 24D.

It should not be grown on free-draining upland where better grasses with better dry season tolerance are available.

Again I am very sorry for your bad experience Khonwan. But you weren't to know. If I was farming in your situation I would have never planted the grass but gone for Mulato II or Mombasa guinea which are highly palatable grasses.You can read about them on our website at http://www.tropseeds.com/

There are many other things I could write about but that will probably do for now on Ubon paspalum

As for Xen's inquiry about Kikuyu grass http://www.tropicalforages.info/key/Forages/Media/Html/Pennisetum_clandestinum.htm

Kikuyu grass has never done well in Thailand because of the hot humid conditions. It is more suited to subtropical regions.

I hope these few points above are of help.

I will now answer the questions on "Grass Seed"

Michael Hare

Ubon Forage Seeds

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