Dragonman

Buying land legalities.

Am in the process of buying and haven’t paid for this land as yet. I was wondering that if I purchase land in my GF name and we break up well land is gone.

Should one wait till the new Thai constitution is completed next year or do I buy it on a lease back.

Land will be used by Family members in total 69 rai in 3 lots.

This my GF says. I quote will at least leave her free to pursue life with me for the next 10 years in my home country without having to worry me about sending money to support her family. Land will be there for us when we retire fully to Thailand and to build house on.

Father has only six rai at the moment to support family had more but sons got married.

Thai culture.

Gf is from Issan area and I have known her for 4 years

Maybe Sunbelt can clarify this minefield.

I don't think I can offer you much from a legal perspective. A lease or usufruct would I suspect not be of much practical use for someone who has split up from their girlfriend/wife and then has the prospects of taking possession and farming, or living on, land in close proximity to all her relatives.

It is quite a large area and presumably not exactly peanuts to acquire.

You must really decide if you are happy with this as a gift, as I am sure this is what it will be considered to be. Also do not consider (from personal experience) that this will be the end of support for the family. There is always a new "venture" that can make them a fortune.

As dsfbrit stated, the Constitution will have little relevance. A Land Code Amendment will be required.

Would concur. Was thinking exactly the same as Dragonman when saw his post. Make it a gift to your future wife and know you will have other gifts as well.... tractor, labor, etc.

What good does a lease or usufruct do on farmers land? It would be like hel_l on earth if you need to enforce this. Are you going to farm it? You can't as a foreigner. If you want to transfer the lease or usufruct... to who? Ever been to an auction, with everybody having their hand in their pocket?

If you do this, just consider the money is gone, it’s not yours anymore.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

I would never consider taking an opposite position to Sunbelt nor Dragonman - I am much too humble.

I suspect that anyone who reads SeanOCasey's post will be, like I was at first, quite horrified at what he is suggesting, for many reasons.

I would say though, that although your legal comment on leases is, I am sure spot on, from a practical human point of view, if SeanOcasey feels obliged to do this land thing - then something (a lease?), anything is better than nothing. My wife keeps having great ideas similar to this - she is from Issan too - and I tend to say no - then buy the odd cow here and there to appease the family -

a lot cheaper than several Rai of land!!

As for leases being enforced - I know Dragonman states in another reply that he know of cases farang have won - but how many cases have been tested recently in the courts for these leases that are being set up for small plots of land? - its one of the reasons I am in a wait and see position on the company / land thing. I have no real confidence in the lease thing at all.

Am I wrong?

How do we Farang get ourselves in these situations !

Sunbelt, Dragonman - I am not trying to be a smart-arse - just trying to make sense of this legal jungle!

With regard to the enforcement of leases, I do not think you will find many lawyers who are not 99.9% ( nothing is 100% ) of the legality and possible enforcement of the 30 year lease. The Leasehold Amendment Act was specifically looked at by the Senate with regard to what should be the maximum permitted for foreigners. They decided on 30 years, not the 50 years suggested by the Ministry of Interior. This reasoning does not differ substantially from Property Law in general with what can be regarded equal to freehold ownership, and what is obviously not.

As foreigners have to sign to state that the Land is purely that of their spouse, she is thus a clearly defined separate entity, and I see no difference in law than signing a lease with a stranger ( other than she may find it easier to say you pressured her into signing). Sunbelt achieved for Mobi a signed agreement from his wife that says she fully understands the implications of the usufruct he established, you may obtain similar for the lease.

Leaseholds for foreigners have been around a long time (specifically mentioned in Amity), although of course it is only since 1999 that they have become readily available from the spouse. I think you will find there have been few Court Cases, as a challenge would be a waste of money, unless there is a breach.

I'm sorry if the following question has been answered before on the Forum. If it has, can anyone refer me to the topic please?

My query relates to this:

My Thai wife and I have been married for 7 years. She is the owner of a house and some separate plots of land in, and around, Burirum. The house and the land were purchased by her 10 years ago, before we were married. She intends to sell the house now and she believes that, as she is now married, when the house is sold I will have to accompany her to the land office to endorse or agree to her selling the house.

Does anyone know if this is true? Thanks for your guidance on this, I'm obliged to you.

The house and land, being purchased before marriage, are outside community property laws and therefore require no consent from you for sale. All income received is "ring fenced" as being her personal property ( unless she's feeling generous ) In fact even if she purchased the land after marriage no permission would be required if the spouse is a foreigner. It is quite likely in a Thai/Thai marriage this would be required. However some Land Offices may wish to play safe and ask for your signature. I have been asked to sign documents before now without any basis in law.

As stated above..be willing to walk away from everything you pay for this house and you can rest easily. Do not pour your life savings into it but if its just a fraction of your assets..say 10% why worry? Any supposed legal right to anything, ie. 30 year leasback ect is worthless..you are on their turf and when you walk into court..assuming you pour tons in legal fees to get that far..guess what? YOU LOSE!!!! So.. do not fret..buy the house only if you can walk away from it all. Otherwise..as some very wise man noted above..find a new, younger GF with no kids!

I'm afraid I don't, from experience, agree with these "urban myths" regarding farangs never being successful in Thai Courts. There are even examples of members of this forum being successful when the odds were stacked in favour of the Thai. There are of course a few examples, mainly historic, where justice has not been done. However no more than in UK, USA or other countries with a reasonable legal system. Anyone who does "nothing" because they believe the law will not protect them, will end up with exactly that, "nothing".

Buying land legalities.

Am in the process of buying and haven’t paid for this land as yet. I was wondering that if I purchase land in my GF name and we break up well land is gone.

Should one wait till the new Thai constitution is completed next year or do I buy it on a lease back.

Land will be used by Family members in total 69 rai in 3 lots.

This my GF says. I quote will at least leave her free to pursue life with me for the next 10 years in my home country without having to worry me about sending money to support her family. Land will be there for us when we retire fully to Thailand and to build house on.

Father has only six rai at the moment to support family had more but sons got married.

Thai culture.

Gf is from Issan area and I have known her for 4 years

Maybe Sunbelt can clarify this minefield.

I don't think I can offer you much from a legal perspective. A lease or usufruct would I suspect not be of much practical use for someone who has split up from their girlfriend/wife and then has the prospects of taking possession and farming, or living on, land in close proximity to all her relatives.

It is quite a large area and presumably not exactly peanuts to acquire.

You must really decide if you are happy with this as a gift, as I am sure this is what it will be considered to be. Also do not consider (from personal experience) that this will be the end of support for the family. There is always a new "venture" that can make them a fortune.

As dsfbrit stated, the Constitution will have little relevance. A Land Code Amendment will be required.

From Condominium Act- "is a title to a part of a building or buildings with multiple owners"

From legal definition- "the composite individual ownership and exclusive possession of a cube of space in a multi unit building".

- The all important one - child custody - who do the Thai courts tend to "favour" (e.g. in Europe its

usually mom who gets custody when the trouble hits the fan)? ..... and in Thailand?

Mother

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

Whilst in principle I would agree "all other things being equal", the Law in itself does not give preference to either spouse. It is up to the Juvenile and Family Court to decide under "Rights of the Child". What is best for the future life of the child, not the parents!

Hi Casanundra

Sorry to hear about that. It's very familiar to me though. As in my other posts (the one with the few extra whiskies) I also explained how the Bank of Thailand has recently clamped down. No mortgages to foreigners - no loans to foreigners - period, full-stop. If you got one a year or two ago..then lucky you.

I went through this with SCB ..at first they said yes (a farang friendly branch where lots of farang-mortgages were issued in past). Then after going through the application - much further along than you - an evaluation of the property, money transfered here from abraod, and with an accepted offer on a property, etc, the bank came back and said 'no'. SCB head office said BOT rules now preclude all farang Thai baht loans. My wife is also Thai, but a housewife looking after our kids. Could I pay 50% down, then put the loan in her name instead (it was a condo), or even buy a house in her name instead - with me as guarantor? "No, a farang cannot guarantee a Thai Baht loan".

So actually, and believe it or not, you were lucky. You have PR right? The banks are lending to those with PR - but under the crappy double-standards as you just discovered, I guess. For the rest of us, we're stuffed. So my family and I will probably leave Thailand when the work permit expires.

Having now looked through every circular and memorandum issued to Financial Institutions by BoT in last 2 years I find nothing to suggest other than an opening of loan oppurtunities, not a closure!

I presume both you and Casanundra were not shown the relevant circular, which I do not think exists. Nothing surprises me however with Thai Banks, as the vast majority of managers I have spoken to, are at the least incompetent, and mainly think all farangs are total idiots!

Hi GG

Can you confirm you are not working in the property of finance biz? There's been a bit of trolling lately.

There is one company and possibly two doing this. Personally I think lease/purchase is a sucker's game. Using these companies means they place THEIR name as owner on the title deed, and you pay a mortgage they arrange thru a Thai bank - again in their name cause they are a Thai company and therefore are able to buy Thai property. It's all very murky about whether you get the title after the loan is repaid. Meantime they can use "their" property as leverage for other investments. It's got 'pear-shaped' written all over it. Beware.

But PM me if you want the name and I'll send it to you. I'm not going to advertise their name here as I'm sure they would love to see.

As well as the dubious legality of lease/purchase, where presumably you really have a lease with option to purchase for nominal amount, I agree with thaigene. The lease is binding with the purchase agreement being a contractual obligation. In other words, despite some adverts saying it cannot be sold without your agreement, if the Company goes through you do not have any purchase rights and no chance of getting any money back. If the price is good for 30 years rental. great. Don't bank on owning anything.

.

1 you put the house and land in your wife's name - not just the land - was there an advantage to this?

Thanks in advance for your advice

This is "superficies", not "usufruct". The house would not belong to you under usufruct. Superficies is not now strictly required under Thai Law as the Lease Terms may include a clause allowing for building and registering your own property. Advantage of this you can pass on the lease and building to anyone on your death. Disadvantage, some lawyers believe a usufruct is for life for foreigners, same as for Thais.

Thanks for your response eljeque, do you work in the legal profession ??

I am just a little concerned from reading this topic that no " qualified" legal members have commented, this question must be on the lips of all non thai land/property owners most of whom would have taken legal advice to buy.

It does not fill the market with much confidence.

I have not replied previously as Mobi had pretty well said it all. It really may be a problem for the sellers not your wife. If they have nothing to hide go along to the Land Office with them and see for yourself the problems they may have. Depends on each individual Land Office.

Maybe not the most moral of comments here, but my take on that would be that unless you have paid a deposit and received a receipt for that deposit, then you are free to walk away.

Maybe if they were dealing with me in a professional and courteous manner, then i would make a token payment to them which covered their costs incurred for administration and processing etc etc, but certainly no more than the equivalent of 1 months rent.

Im sure this may not be legally correct, but its just my two satangs.

No they are not being very professional about it. They can stick it up there <deleted> sideways as far as I am concerned. Im not worried about the legal implications in respect of them going legal on me, its just that I want to continue using there services so dont want to do this.

As they have tried to have my trousers down at 1st attempt they have blown any chance of getting anything now, not even a token offer !

Thanks for the comments, but no thanks for the "If it was me I would have checked 1st" comments.

Couldn't find any quotation "If it was me I would have checked 1st". What I meant was, as a lawyer, I would have advised a one month termination should be included. Probably wouldn't have listened however as you seem to only like opinions that are similar to your own.

Steve is correct and unless they are feeling generous your only defence is Section 7 of "Unfair Contract Terms Act (1997)".

My wonderful Thai wife (9 monk ceremony only) wants to officially marry with"paper". After being subdivided 4 times by Western wives I swore I would never put myself in that position again. She is not a bar girl and I plan on staying with her forever but at her age I recognize people change (I am too old to change) and I also see occasional un-justified flareups that I know are PMS, she does not understand why her "hormones" act so strange occasionally.

She just graduated University on a scholarship provide by my ATM and we own 2 houses and 2 cars, but in the name of my corporation. I am working on a will that will give her everything if I die of natural causes but if under mysterious circumstances my brother would inherit my estate.

How can I protect my assets and still keep a happy wife. I don't think she would have any objection to a pre nup.

Pre-nuptial agreements (known as ante-nuptials in Thailand) are legal when attached to wedding certificates at time of marriage, signed by you and wife and 2 witnesses. Most lawyers in Chiang Mai should have knowledge.

Hoping someone out there might be able to help me on this one.

I have signed a contract with a company in Bangkok for office rental for which I want to cancel. I have informed them that I no longer need the office however, in order for me to cancel they say I have to pay the whole 12 months rental in order to cancel it. I have not used the office nor have I given them a deposit yet, even though the contract clearly states the deposit.

I have heard that in some countries unless a deposit is taken and a receipt is issued against that contract it is rendered null and void, does anyone know if this is the case in Thailand ?

Before anyone asks the contract is with a very big International company that provides serviced offices, its not with your average Thai Charlie.

Thanks.

Difficult to give a legal opinion without seeing the contract. Does the contract give a notice period for "get out" by lessor or lessee? If not, you have a 12 month lease which you are obligated to. If you and the lessor have signed, under Thai Law you have a contract. If you employed a lawyer, he would have advised a 1 month notice for termination was included. I would have!

All good stuff. However, the crack down is not new law, It's a tightening of existing legislation. Now I have been told that if/when a knock on the door comes, this existing law gives you one year to get your house ( pardon the pun ) in order. This being the case why jump in now ? Why not sit tight until the dust settles with the new administration and the true future direction is known. Who knows, a 99 year lease may be just round the corner, why go to the expense of a half-way house, 30 year number now, when the knock may never come, and you'll have a year to get sorted if it does ?

Time for the flames.

I agree with the "wait and see" in principle, and have suggested such in the past. The only problem is that if "the knock on the door" does come, you have come to the attention of the Authorities, and hence leaseholds, usufructs,etc may be looked at much closer than an "unknown" case. The lower profile you keep out here the "safer" you are.

As a farang, is renting a property I own in Thailand to somebody else technically legal? I have no company set up and obviously pay no tax. I was just wondering...

Totally legal, except for the fact you are not declaring the income for 12.5% tax.

I am facing the same dilema. While back in Aus I contacted local adoption agency, having got all the forms in Thailand, and was informed that nothing could be done until my family moved to Aus. Only then would the interviews and assessments be undertaken. As my family will not be moving to Aus.,this is impossible, so I will need to find another way to achieve this end. Does anyone have any knowledge if it is possible to change a name by 'Deed Poll' in Thailand, as this may be a way around the problem?

Perhaps barryofthailand wouldn't mind if you PM'd him, as he has previously posted that he has gone through the adoption process successfully in Thailand.

I am facing the same dilema. While back in Aus I contacted local adoption agency, having got all the forms in Thailand, and was informed that nothing could be done until my family moved to Aus. Only then would the interviews and assessments be undertaken. As my family will not be moving to Aus.,this is impossible, so I will need to find another way to achieve this end. Does anyone have any knowledge if it is possible to change a name by 'Deed Poll' in Thailand, as this may be a way around the problem?

Possible but onerous legal complexities. Adoption should be easier and cheaper.

Hi Khun,

...

Jimmy

Thailand is getting more xenophobic by the minute, i wouln't count on it that you will be able to legally own your land and house. Rent/lease is the only sure way.

What your developer probably meant to say is that with the 'right' people and the 'right' tricks it can be registered again. Problem with that is that it wil still be against the law and you have the risk of being kicked out of your house in the future. Not nice when you plan to retire.

Why wait until you paid everything, decorated your house and live there comfortabley in an ignorant is bliss state.

The knock on the door will bring you back to earth again.

Probably you will get a year to sell everything or otherwise it will be property of the crown.

Problem is when that happens, who is going to buy it.

I don't call that an easy retirement, you will worry the rest of your time here. Unless al the money you spend is just peanuts for you.

As i said before, up to you. Just go in with your eyes open and with knowledge of the law, not the law as told by the one who is benifitting from the deal.

It is not for any other reason owners and buyers are getting very nervous and are taking measures to try to protect there property, well actually the property of the 51% shareholders.

Having bought a house through the company route a couple of years ago, like many others,

I read every article about land ownership when the news broke a few months ago.

I have just been reading this thread with some interest.

Certainly when the news came out at first I was expecting problems like that so eloquently put forward by khun Jean.

I decided to sit down quietly, understand all the options and make a decision when I felt I needed to.

Do I need to make a decision yet? Its been several months now since the news about the land ownership / company route has been around.

Does anyone know of any expat that has had the 'knock on the door'? In fact does anyone have any news that perhaps lawyers offices have been investigated (where their staff were used to set up these shell companies). Are there any 'horror' stories at all???

Has anyone actually sold a house via the company route recently and got a reasonable price for it?

Check out www.tropical-living.com/06-09sep/01debate.htm

A good, well researched article.

I have no direct experience of doing this, but am quoting from my legal papers which appear fairly explicit. I do not know where your wife went to apply, but she could already have proceeded as per thai law. Adoption does indeed need to take place before change of name. The District Family & Juvenile Court will decide and The Child Guidance Center undertakes "investigations". It is also likely that unless she has a Court Order allowing her sole guardianship, a 6 week publication for objections by the child's father may be posted.

Can anyone advise me what proof of income is required in order for UK Embassy to issue certificate.

Also does Immigration require to see your bank book to ensure over 40,000 baht is going in every month.

hi

i am a singapore with regards tosome help in divorce procedings.

the situation is like this;

I am planning to get married with my SHAN girlfriend in thailand but she mentioned to me that yrs back she was married to another singaporean by haste also in thailand (bangkok) and have never seen him since.

With such problems, i found tht it was unable to get legally married with her until she gets divorce from her previous marriage.

i am unsure what to do, hope you can help me with all require supporting documents and proecdures.

The law regarding "abandonment" allows for a 1 year period before divorce may be granted. A doctor's certificate confirming she is not pregnant is easily obtained (if she isn't) and you may then marry as soon as the divorce is granted in Court.

Of course a lawyer will be required as the case must go through a Thai Court, and if his residence is not known postings must be made before divorce "in absentia" is granted.

Of course she must reside in Thailand to get this divorce.

I´m trying to find info on how to set up a charity, but it´s proving rather difficult. There are people and organisations looking to make small but repeated donations to be distributed in Thailand. I lived in Thailand in the past and will shortly be moving back and hoped to start a charity on my arrival to enable me to accept and distribute these donations legally.

Does anyone know how to go about this or where I can find information on how to do it?

Thanks

Peter

Charitable Foundations may be set up by foreigners ( Chapter 2, Part 3, Civil & Commercial Code).One Director must be Thai and have a suitable Status. Applications and information can be obtained from local offices of Office of National Culture Commission, or Head Office, Ratchadapisek Road, Bangkok, telephone 02 247 0013.

thanks dragonman

i have read somewhere that a loan can be secured on the land to stop it being transferred without my wishes. Is this practical and legal ?

Yes, as long as you don't ever plan to marry this is possible. However the loan needs to be drawn up correctly, including interest repayments, etc., in order for it not to be considered contrived in any Court Case. Personally I prefer the route dsfbrit is considering.

Hi

I am hoping one of the experts on here could give me a little advice.

I have a steady thai gf, but have no intention of getting married.

I am purchasing a house on a development outside of bangkok, so the she and her son have a nice place to live while i am away working and some security should anything happen to me.

Of course, my girlfriend thinks the house and land should be in her name.

My original plan was to go down the company route, but after reading this forum, have realised this is not a good or even possible idea.

I am wondering what the current best advice is ?

I am still of the opinion that in such a case the land in your girlfriend's name, and the building in your name, is the fairest way. You can tell her that you will make a Will that as long as she remains with you until death the structure will also be hers. If you split up the building can be yours, or whoever you bequeath it to, subject to law on foreign ownership.

Medina

The voidable contract would be the original purchase you made from the Developer. In other words the land would go back to the Developer, you'd get your money back, and then he would have to sell it within 1 year .This is why the law allows for "in good faith", so that any innocent party does not lose from an illegal act. In fact the Developer would receive a large fine or a prison sentence and you would go on as normal, unless you coluded.

Morning Dragonman,

Thank you. Does "blink" suggest the developer probably wouldn't have to sell the land? But what happens if I have built a house on the plot? Will the developer have to refund the cost of this as well? And, what is the situation if the developer has not got the financial means to buy back the land and/or building? Do you know of any situations where what you describe, has happened? Lots

of questions! Look forward to learning more.

Regards,

Medina

The Developer will likely have to sell the land which he has not already disposed of. If he has sold to you before him being declared "illegal", you would be declared having purchased "in good faith". Thus you would maintain ownership.

If under some totally insane Judgement (there have been a couple over here, but not as many as people think ) the contract is voidable then you would have to go through Civil Court to get your money back. Extremely rare due to"in good faith", and the law allows for innocent parties not to suffer financial penalties. There have been judgements where assets must be sold in illegal Companies, and also fines (don't know of any prison sentences yet). But I do not know of a case where contracts have been deemed voidable. When you think of it logically to follow "the letter of the law" where there is an illegal Company, everyone who ever purchased goods would have void contracts, hence the blink.