andreandre

Wow, the discussion which solves nothing!!

Basically covering your brakes gives you a 5% bonus in stopping distance. At 100kmph that's 4.16 metres. That may well help as long as you are doing everything else 100% correct... If you can identify an emergency situation 10% faster than another rider you will stop 5% faster than them even if they are covering their brakes. There are so many complex factors that come together to formulate the safety equation. http://therideadvice.com/two-fingered-motorcycle-braking-save-life/

Riding in your comfort zone, being fully engaged in your riding, being fully aware of your surroundings, being confident in your ability to react to emergencies are all more important than the pedantic discussion of whether or not to cover your brakes.

I agree with you and i don't think anyone has said that simply covering your brakes is anything more than just another good skill....Riding a bike competently is not at all about any one particular action/method....it is the total coming together of a multitude of actions and reactions especially in a E situation where you need everything of benefit, no matter how small to be on your side...

Last sentence in the link you provided says it all; . "Given the distance saved, using two fingered braking might not just save you from a crash, it could save your life."

just finiching night shift freesing cold stillagain brrrrr waited more for me new R3 till maybe april delivered late now ?? not care as for the cold too much for riding ice i thanks for you informing of trial breaking i thought was about the riding off of roads like on motorcross bike but i learn from you now an i can soon be practised this on me R3

Are you drunk?

Give the kid a break....you busted his arse before not not using spell checker..it's clear english is not his native tongue...

I had forgotten about that. My apologies speedthrills. I wasn't picking on your language skills. I will try to decipher again what you had written:

"Just finishing work, it's still freezing cold again. Have to wait till April before my new R3 will be delivered, if not later. Don't care too much as it's too cold to ride and besides, roads are still icy. Thanks for posting about trail braking. I initially thought it was about riding off roads like on a motorcross bike (trials, breaking trails?) but I see now that this is about road riding. I will soon be able to practice this on my R3."

I guess this is the gist of it.

Not sure of your skill level speedthrills but this is an advanced braking technique and should ideally be restricted to the track. There's no need for it during normal day to day road riding. Trail braking (when done wrongly) sometimes starts a chain reaction that ends up with a high side.

There is not one reason at all why this should be restricted to the track...see LL2 post also my reply....A highside from bad trail braking?? very very unlikely ...lowside? yes near everytime if you get it wrong.

trail braking is good and necessary. a simple google search about it can bring you many valuable info and videos about it.

but it is not rocket science so if you ride for sometime, you can get it and best way to learn and practice it is a track.

and you can do trail braking everywhere.

Agree that it is not rocket science, but don't underestimate that it is way up in advanced riding techniques.. it is reasonably easy to learn for competent riders though as you say, but then again,not all competent riders use this technique ..yet another personal choice....Yes a track is good for practice, but so is real world conditions out on the roads....

i really can't remember when i myself and some mates started this use but was somewhere in the late '70's on my Laverda Jota..[76 model so that time is fitting ]that i realised that i was braking into corners just by nature of one of my favourite mountain roads..many blind corners and/or decreasing radius ones..so going in deep on front brake was just normal....wasn't called trail braking then...just "braking into corners.".. blind corners you can still be braking far into the corner to enable you to see more of it...looking for the apex...decreasing radius corners also trailbraking can be a life saver if you have come in way too hot initially..being competent trailbraking can save your arse big time.

You can also keep your foot on the rear brake"lightly" as you exit a corner this will help stop the rear tyre from spinning under power.

Rob

Nothing to do with trail braking as such but Yes, for sure you can.use rear brake to control wheelspin when you aggressively twist that throttle.......'lightly'' is definitely the key word though...

It was pointed out that this topic was not for 'noobies" thread ; about riding manual bikes..agree with that and i think it is another important part of riding skills and roadcraft so here is my interpretation of it as asked by dave-boo and seedy on that thread...E braking ran its course so lets go here;

@ dave...trail braking can help reduce your time through a particular corner [if done right] so yes it can make you faster...... @seedy...not so much about the rear end,. not directly anyway.

I will try to explain as best i can..this is another skill that i have done for years and years and not known the ''tech expression "for it....[trail braking]

As you approach a corner and braking as hard as you need, instead of taking off front brake you start slightly only reducing pressure and as you lean more into it you slowly reduce more and more..until apex and as you release the brake fully you start to feed in power...smooth ,one motion and no time between....By doing this, because the bike is squatting down to front after initial braking before corner and you keep some pressure on the front end won't come up and you have these benefits ;...you have compressed the front tyre so keep the larger contact patch, you have also slightly reduced both rake and trail which gives reduced turning radius and so quicker steering and faster through the corner.

Not a skill for a 'noobie'' to learn IMO but one that a competent rider can gradually develope as his riding/ braking skills increase.[ its hard for a 'noobie'' to even dream of front braking in a corner]..once you have this skill, it becomes just another one that is executed automatically on track and on road...its critical all braking applications should be light and smooth but firm when needed.

@ andreandre

Yeah, we're straying way off the noob questions here. Think we actually took a hard left away from it like 4 pages back.

And for all those who complain about no rules in city riding in Thailand...there are some. And just because you ride a big bike you are not important. In fact, we're 2 steps up from soi dogs. Perhaps not even there. Easy rules to remember. Bigger vehicles have right of way unless they're expensive imports...and even then.. The lines and signs and lights are guidelines. If it helps save the environment by driving/riding against traffic to shave 5 minutes off (yeah, I'm laughing as I write that justification), than do it. Nature abhors a vacuum, fill available space. You are responsible for yourself and not hitting the person in front of you. A right turn signal when a vehicle is parked alongside the road is an acceptable substitute for 4-ways. Flashing high beams can either be a yield or 'stay the hell out of my way'; use approaching speed as well as length of flash to determine which. Cutting across all lanes from a side soi to hit a u-turn will happen. Even more frequently if the vehicle is big or expensive. Kids, as they are everywhere, are stupid and do stupid things. Here they get on scooters that have the exhausts gutted and are easier to spot/hear rather than in a 1+ tonne vehicle that they do in other countries. Oil floats on water; after a rain expect all the crap to surface and wreak havoc on your traction. Zebra stripes (crosswalks) are not to be yielded to unless there's a light (like on Ram Intra).

For sure it has gone off...that is the nature of forums very often..but this is all good info for those who can appreciate it...you asked a question and i answered it to the best of my ability....EDIT..good info is also of benefit to a ''noobie'' who doesn't want to be a 'noobie'' for ever ..learn from others experience and put it into practice over time...

I am not the best rider on this board...but isn't trail braking a good way to make sure you go faster?

My understanding about trail braking is to set the bike down on the rear suspension before corner entry. Pioneered by Fast Freddie Spencer if memory serves - he was also the first guy to 'Square' corners to increase exit speed.

Also acts to stabilize the bike I have been told.

@ dave...trail braking can help reduce your time through a particular corner [if done right] so yes it can make you faster...... @seedy...not so much about the rear end,. not directly anyway.

I will try to explain as best i can..this is another skill that i have done for years and years and not known the ''tech expression "for it....[trail braking]

As you approach a corner and braking as hard as you need, instead of taking off front brake you start slightly only reducing pressure and as you lean more into it you slowly reduce more and more..until apex and as you release the brake fully you start to feed in power...smooth ,one motion and no time between....By doing this, because the bike is squatting down to front after initial braking before corner and you keep some pressure on the front end won't come up and you have these benefits ;...you have compressed the front tyre so keep the larger contact patch, you have also slightly reduced both rake and trail which gives reduced turning radius and so quicker steering and faster through the corner.

Not a skill for a 'noobie'' to learn IMO but one that a competent rider can gradually develope as his riding/ braking skills increase.[ its hard for a 'noobie'' to even dream of front braking in a corner]..once you have this skill, it becomes just another one that is executed automatically on track and on road...its critical all braking applications should be light and smooth but firm when needed.

Pathetic attempted deflection LL2... totally irrelevant to our discussion......you made the statements..only you can give me the answer..or maybe [or likely obviously , you can not ]

it is very relevant. Due to body positioning, leaning etc, you cannot keep your fingers on the brakes or you cannot put your fingers on an off the brakes all the time as you lean and be upright many times during a 2 minute lap.

and on the track, there will be no cat or dog suddenly running to the road or no one trying to do a wrong u turn or sudden braking out of blue. no one cuts you too and you know where you need to do braking. rarely a guy might flip but where they flip also mostly same places on hard corners etc. so, chances to do an emergency braking is very very low if you compare with normal roads and traffic or especially in a city.

maybe Marc Marquez and all those moto gp riders are also pathetic, huh andre? and you are not?

if my answers are not satisfactory, you can always send a facebook messages to one of those moto gp riders and maybe can get a better answer.

man look, i am trying not to clash with you and answer your stupid remarks as you said you have terminal cancer and it is true or not, i do not want to break your heart on things anymore.

please be nice as i am being nice to you.

Come on man i'm not going to go toe to toe with you again..get real man!!...The deflection i mention is because of what started out as you making a point about YOU on a TRACKDAY, nothing at all to do with the GP riders methods..[surely you don't really believe that you are in their league??} or anywhere near it as none of us mortals are....Lets go back a little and you need to calm down a bit...Originally you said this

..:but during track days, covering brakes are unnecessary and all my trainers advised me to remove my fingers from brakes and clutch. Bc you dont do emergency breaking on a track and they said while in a panic situation on the track, as an involuntarily reflex you might squeeze the brake or clutch in a wrong time resulting on problems.

My reply in 100% full ageement with you as follows

Yes, exactly right IMO about brake covering..but the clutch is not neccessary as you say..i do it because i'm comfortable with both hands in same position..then again if i jump on any 'twist and go' bike my hands once again are covering both levers, this time both brakes...it is just an instantaneous thing....i think that even if i got on a pushbike my hands would just assume the position.

Covering the brakes on trackdays is indeed un-necessary just for regular braking because you know your braking points.....but what happens if someone goes down in front of you and or an out of control bike spins back onto the track near you?...E braking is a possiblity anytime at road or track...I always ride exactly the same style,wherever i am riding..if a emergency does come up, you are automatically ready...that can only be a good thing!

Then i asked a very simple polite question of you:viz:

Did your instructors give a valid reason for not covering the brakes whilst on track apart from the doubtful "you don't do E braking on track"

Next you posted;

"same as covering the front brakes, it is needed imo or fast braking reactions."

My response..note ,again polite and asking you to clarify;

"

This is of course 100% correct, so why are you "not covering your brakes on track days?or at least being told not to?

And again polite as i know..

Why are you so reticent to answer this straight forward question....[not a trick question, i'm just curious as to why.you made contradictory statements and you should be able to clarify..]

Do you get it now LL2? You still have not provided an answer to a very simple question....instead resorting to the usual insults...comeon... comparing you and your braking ideas on a basic track day..[ which is after all ,primarily to hone your road craft skills] to Marquez , a very highly skilled professional track racer is just ridiculous...There is no comparison at all ,..as i have clearly stated earlier.

EDIT..so now could you please tell me why you are advised not to cover your brakes when playing on a track? simple question needs only a simple answer.

Pathetic attempted deflection LL2... totally irrelevant to our discussion......you made the statements..only you can give me the answer..or maybe [or likely obviously , you can not ]

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Never mind the front brake, who covers the back brake with their foot all the time?

I also cover rear brake in Bangkok. naturally my feet covers it anyway due to my aftermarket rearset.

same as covering the front brakes, it is needed imo or fast braking reactions. but while touring, it is not super necessary.

Moreover, i cover the clutch - something coming from my first 2 stroker - not only for fast shifting but also in case of a piston or transmission problem as if these happen, rear tires get locked same as two strokers but very very rarely for 4 strokers. of course too paranoid i know but you never know! also my hands feel balanced when i cover the clutch too.

and covering the brakes has nothing to do with the throttle. You release the throttle before you apply the brakes of course and keeping your fingers on the brakes do not prevent this. throttle has a tight spring at most of the modern new bikes.

"same as covering the front brakes, it is needed imo or fast braking reactions."

This is of course 100% correct, so why are you "not covering your brakes on track days?or at least being told not to?

Why are you so reticent to answer this straight forward question....[not a trick question, i'm just curious as to why.you made contradictory statements and you should be able to clarify..]

2 fingers on the lever is enough for me to cause ABS to engage and raise the rear wheel.

No need for more than that. Riding in BKK filtering through traffic a bike's length behind the bike in front (not "textbook" stuff but necessary) would be dangerous without covering the front brake IMO. The time taken to reach for the brake would be too long in the all too frequent event of someone in front of you stopping suddenly.

But each to their own. What you do to pass a test and what you do in real world situations is quite different, like having to hold the steering wheel at "10 to 2" and feed the wheel through your hands in a UK car test. Totally impractical and no-one does it once they've passed.

I'm not really up on ABS but i thought that stoppies would not be possible by virtue of how ABS works.....I'm up being informed tho"..

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Never mind the front brake, who covers the back brake with their foot all the time?

I also cover rear brake in Bangkok. naturally my feet covers it anyway due to my aftermarket rearset.

same as covering the front brakes, it is needed imo or fast braking reactions. but while touring, it is not super necessary.

Moreover, i cover the clutch - something coming from my first 2 stroker - not only for fast shifting but also in case of a piston or transmission problem as if these happen, rear tires get locked same as two strokers but very very rarely for 4 strokers. of course too paranoid i know but you never know! also my hands feel balanced when i cover the clutch too.

and covering the brakes has nothing to do with the throttle. You release the throttle before you apply the brakes of course and keeping your fingers on the brakes do not prevent this. throttle has a tight spring at most of the modern new bikes.

"same as covering the front brakes, it is needed imo or fast braking reactions."

This is of course 100% correct, so why are you "not covering your brakes on track days?or at least being told not to?

I'm an habitual two fingers covering front brake guy pretty much anywhere other than droning along on a highway. Is it less safe / slower to stop than no fingers to full four in an emergency? Honestly I've no idea but I do think there's a good case for arguing that, on many modern high performance bikes without ABS, it's easier to overbrake with four fingers than two and lock up the front.

Last Sunday some prick in a Suzuki Swift came off the expressway at Klong Tan and decided he wanted to get on the flyover over Klong Tan going towards Asoke. He didn't look and cut basically perpendicularly straight across four lanes to do it. Luckily I wasn't going too fast (50) but it was a full on emergency braking situation that had my rear tyre skipping along nicely with two fingers on the front lever. After I stopped I used the two fingers to express my displeasure to the <deleted>. In fact I was so riled that I went after him intending to have a friendly word. After driving behind the guy for a couple of km it became clear he had no idea I was right behind him all the way, most likely because he was balancing an Ipad on the steering wheel. He had Chonburi plates so I assume he was just blindly following a GPS map. I'd calmed down a bit by then and I was near home so I let it go.

Moral of the story: four fingers / two fingers, who cares as long as you use a technique that works best on your bike and you can actually stop quickly when you really have to.

"Moral of the story: four fingers / two fingers, who cares as long as you use a technique that works best on your bike and you can actually stop quickly when you really have to."

Yes..because what may be easy/comfortable for some may not be so for others...a lot of my riding associates simply cannot/willnot ride two finger brake ready because it doesn't feel right..some ride 4 finger,others just simply don't cover brakes..up to them.. as for E braking involving ,as i do both hands and both feet are all working simultaneously ..it turns out that a large number of males just cannot do this..its apparently only a guy thing to do with not having so good multi tasking abilities...[ladies, no doubt will agree on this ]

What ever method..all you can do is be as good as you possibly can by constant practice and refining techniques..if you are doing it in your comfort zone so its an automatic reflex, you have to be better off than trying to do something that is not in the "zone"...

Also, Carol i asked why is ''covering the brakes" Poppycock"" as she called it..Thanks for your last post Carol, which mostly confirmed braking proceedures as i said myself, but you ommitted the part to tell me why covering the brakes is "very bad practice"

This is a serious issue and right up to my last day riding i want to be learning and adapting if needed...you never stop learning/improving your skills!

Just give me and any others who are keen to improve their safety practices the answers if you can....Thank you.

Sorry I missed this original question. I am also currently involved in saving a pier in England and I have been distracted by some very aggressive online spammers.

Sorry if I came over a little aggressive in my recent posts as well.

It is very hard to explain why you should not ride covering the levers without demonstrating it as that is what I have spent half my life doing

A dyslexic trying to explain something only in words is almost an oxymoron

When you go for the brakes in an emergency stop what do you need to do first?

Close the throttle.

If you are riding with your fingers constantly over the levers the throttle is being held open with your thumb. Yes?

So from that position you are not able to close the throttle are you?

Yes you can release the throttle, the springs will close it? Yes that is true.

Have you noticed that most bikes today are fitted with two throttle cables? One opens, the other closes.

It is a lot quicker and far better practice to forcibly close the throttle, rather than rely on the spring.

So one reason for not covering the Throttle is it will actually take longer for you to apply the front brake if you have to move your hand to close the throttle first.

But that is not the only reason. I have already mentioned that it can and does lead to the brake light coming on. I have followed hundreds of learners. a give-away sign that they are covering their levers is that the brake light keeps coming on sometimes flickering. I have even seen people fail their tests because of it. MY ZRX1100 has 6 pot callipers on it. Thats 12 little pistons pushing on the disk when I pull on the lever. Is it not a reasonable expectation that at high speed the wind pressure on your fingers would be enough to apply some pressure to the lever?

Also not forgetting what is the most blinding point of all and touched on by somebody already - If you are not gripping the handlebars you are not in full control of the bike.

Ok - yes I have ridden no handedly. Will continue to do so as well. Not saying I am perfect, but if we are talking motorcycle theory here - I lost my front top row of teeth falling off a pushbike when I was 13 - due to riding without holding on (had just raced a bus and won as well). If you are covering the levers - your not holding on.

Hope that helps.

Thanks for trying to answer Carol..it appears tho' , as another poster noted, that different parts of the world have different ideas....this helps explain things a bit...No need to appologise for aggressiveness..its common here ..Funny thing tho'..you mentioned riding no hands....i also can do and do do at times, but when i posted about it all hell broke loose..you could hear the howls of derision from many posters all over the country....either your turn is coming or it was a special just for me...funny reaction all the same!

But i digress..back to this braking issue. I can see what you are saying re covering brakes and throttle closing etc,and can partially agree ,but only in the case of using 4 fingers....in my case only 2 fingers, so have full braking abilities and full throttle control..ie 2 fingers and thumb controlling it....so must disagree about taking longer to apply the brake.... As for not having full control of the bike also, that i also disagree with [in my case at least] I can understand a smaller ,weaker person having some difficulty but i am not in that catagory by a long shot. In 700,000 k's i've never, ever not had absolute full control of my bike due to my hand placement technique...We can agree to disagree on some issues.....different strokes for different folks huh.... If my technique didn't work for me, i would either not be here now, or would have changed it way back..

There has to be a set of guidelines in any training programe for sure, but i think that in certain cases and different rider abilities one can fine tune methods to suit ones own preferences,after and if it works, well and good..only experience can tell......i've done mine with bum-on-seat experience, not as in some posters who believe that if they watch enough videos they can do the same...

Enjoy your riding..

Never mind the front brake, who covers the back brake with their foot all the time?

Not many that i've noticed, but certain bikes have footrest/ brakepedal positioning where this happens naturally..

if you are riding on the roads, streets, city, touring whatever, brakes has to be covered at all times. covering the clutch is also handy for fast gear changes but not necessary if you are doing clutchless shifting.

Most important for braking is when you apply the brakes and even milliseconds creates a dramatic difference - life or death - and if your fingers are away from the brake, you lose a big time therefore stop in a longer distance.

but during track days, covering brakes are unnecessary and all my trainers advised me to remove my fingers from brakes and clutch. Bc you dont do emergency breaking on a track and they said while in a panic situation on the track, as an involuntarily reflex you might squeeze the brake or clutch in a wrong time resulting on problems.

Yes, exactly right IMO about brake covering..but the clutch is not neccessary as you say..i do it because i'm comfortable with both hands in same position..then again if i jump on any 'twist and go' bike my hands once again are covering both levers, this time both brakes...it is just an instantaneous thing....i think that even if i got on a pushbike my hands would just assume the position.

Covering the brakes on trackdays is indeed un-necessary just for regular braking because you know your braking points.....but what happens if someone goes down in front of you and or an out of control bike spins back onto the track near you?...E braking is a possiblity anytime at road or track...I always ride exactly the same style,wherever i am riding..if a emergency does come up, you are automatically ready...that can only be a good thing!

Did your instructors give a valid reason for not covering the brakes whilst on track apart from the doubtful "you don't do E braking on track"

"panic situation on the track, as an involuntarily reflex you might squeeze the brake or clutch in a wrong time resulting on problems."

Surely the above would also apply to on the road....Thats why one must practice and practice the exact same proceedure for E braking, no matter where you are riding..no involuntary reflex will occur.

To me, mastering E braking and continually practicing this regularly is paramount in being a competent and confident rider, above , probably all other skills/crafts.

Just my thoughts and methodology and it has never failed me...

andre, at the track no one cuts you - normally you get a black flag if you do so - and you see things fast there so you see that bike coming in advance.

track is not the same as roads, things are fast there, you are at the limits of your bike at extreme lean angles and physically yourself too. so you are more prone to panic situations and maybe you need the leverage of your hands fully on the bars while leaning.

moreover, these guys telling me are long timers on the track so i believe they know a thing or two.

LL2 yes i understand tracks..i have done more trackdays than i can recall and had on track instruction multi faceted. i know full well of what can be done there.. ..This OP regarded 'noobies" but i;m sure you realise that i'm no 'Noobie"

And yes i do understand black flag for rule violations...maybe you missunderstood my meaning...as i said..;..but what happens if someone goes down in front of you and or an out of control bike spins back onto the track near you?..

If this happens you have to E brake...if not ,you're probably going to crash..Yes?

Anyway the point that i'm very interested in finding out , that i have asked both you and Carol Jadzia with zero information returned ; you I asked "Did your instructors give a valid reason for not covering the brakes whilst on track apart from the doubtful "you don't do E braking on track"

Also, Carol i asked why is ''covering the brakes" Poppycock"" as she called it..Thanks for your last post Carol, which mostly confirmed braking proceedures as i said myself, but you ommitted the part to tell me why covering the brakes is "very bad practice"

This is a serious issue and right up to my last day riding i want to be learning and adapting if needed...you never stop learning/improving your skills!

Just give me and any others who are keen to improve their safety practices the answers if you can....Thank you.

if you are riding on the roads, streets, city, touring whatever, brakes has to be covered at all times. covering the clutch is also handy for fast gear changes but not necessary if you are doing clutchless shifting.

Most important for braking is when you apply the brakes and even milliseconds creates a dramatic difference - life or death - and if your fingers are away from the brake, you lose a big time therefore stop in a longer distance.

but during track days, covering brakes are unnecessary and all my trainers advised me to remove my fingers from brakes and clutch. Bc you dont do emergency breaking on a track and they said while in a panic situation on the track, as an involuntarily reflex you might squeeze the brake or clutch in a wrong time resulting on problems.

Yes, exactly right IMO about brake covering..but the clutch is not neccessary as you say..i do it because i'm comfortable with both hands in same position..then again if i jump on any 'twist and go' bike my hands once again are covering both levers, this time both brakes...it is just an instantaneous thing....i think that even if i got on a pushbike my hands would just assume the position.

Covering the brakes on trackdays is indeed un-necessary just for regular braking because you know your braking points.....but what happens if someone goes down in front of you and or an out of control bike spins back onto the track near you?...E braking is a possiblity anytime at road or track...I always ride exactly the same style,wherever i am riding..if a emergency does come up, you are automatically ready...that can only be a good thing!

Did your instructors give a valid reason for not covering the brakes whilst on track apart from the doubtful "you don't do E braking on track"

"panic situation on the track, as an involuntarily reflex you might squeeze the brake or clutch in a wrong time resulting on problems."

Surely the above would also apply to on the road....Thats why one must practice and practice the exact same proceedure for E braking, no matter where you are riding..no involuntary reflex will occur.

To me, mastering E braking and continually practicing this regularly is paramount in being a competent and confident rider, above , probably all other skills/crafts.

Just my thoughts and methodology and it has never failed me...

^

because I'm am whacking it out to full throttle on the track more often it seems a little awkward sometimes when covering the front brake ,think a quick action throttle may help me on this..

I'm presuming that when you talk of trackdays you are not being instructed, just riding for fun and improving your own roadskills...doing your own thing...track riding has for me two distinct advantages...one..you can go as hard and as fast as you like thereby gaining more experience and finding both yours and your bikes limits,without cops spoiling your day and two you can do the same in a more controlled environment, safety wise....This can translate to more competence/confidence when road riding again...

Unless you aim to ride permanently on road with the QA throttle ,there is no benefit in changing it......just use every possible moment, on track to practice, practice, until covering the brake at the full throttle scenario is no longer "awkward"...

Very interesting thread. Ive been doing alot of skidding in quick stops lately and I was thinking it was the rear tire. Now, I think Ive been hitting the rear brake too hard. I thought I was applying the front brake with equal pressure, but now not sure.

I will definately be doing some test braking before any more rides.

Thanks

solution dont pull the clutch in until the last minute ,the back wheel will always easily lock up if on the back brake and clutch pulled in....

on another note i have always ridden with 2 fingers covering the front brake...problem i have now is doing trackdays i am trying to not cover the front brake and it don't feel comfortable at all..

So....why change your braking style, just because you are doing track days? That doesn't make sense at all...you should be just as comfortable and relaxed [ even moreso in fact ]

First and foremost a rider must learn to 'cover the brakes' ...myself,i have always ridden two fingers permanently on brake lever and clutch lever....

...the more competent you are in all aspects of bike roadcraft the less likely you are to be in a predicament where emergency braking is required.

Ok, the two above statements sort of cancel themselves out. The second I could not agree with more.

But <deleted> is the first about? Who taught you that bit of poppy cock?

First off do your friends complain that you are constantly flashing your brake light at them? Or did you remove the front brake light switch?

This is very

bad practice. Not that its a worry to you but thats a test fail for a start here.

What tends to happen under emergency conditions is first off due to the hands location you have to pull back before closing the throttle. Or the other common fault of opening the throttle as you go for the brake - not the best position to be in in an emergency.

It is also common for people to loose or seriously injure the fingers that are left behind the levers. As the lever is forced in it traps and damages whats between it and the grip.

This is a very common motorcycle injury. Very hard to ride with a broken finger after what might have been a simple dropped bike.

I have seen this happen many times. But that's bikers for you. never learn

Firstly.,i'm glad that you agree with this; ......

But 2nd where you say this makes me wonder about your experience in real life.

..." But <deleted> is the first about? Who taught you that bit of poppy cock?

First off do your friends complain that you are constantly flashing your brake light at them? Or did you remove the front brake light switch?

Poppycock??? Covering your brakes saves precious time in emergency braking situation..Yes? As for flashing brakelight?? what are you on about ? There is no pressure on the lever at all to activate the brakelight...and no, i did not remove the switch....[bizarre comments from you ] so, no, friends are not complaining about flashing brakelight...You are supposedly an experienced rider and yet you don't have a clue what ''covering the brakes means" ..Bad practice?? now that is poppycock .

As for the rest of your post..again???? Opening the throttle when you go for the brake..How can this be done?? Myself i ride two fingers resting on brake lever and hooked over at first joint..when i brake at any time [not just E braking] as i roll the throttle closed my fingers automatically slide forward and then the 2nd joint is applying as much brake pressure as i need ..sseasy..try it sometime.

All in one step..closed throttle and as much brake as i need... PS ...as i type this i see that i have all four fingers on my right hand..none chopped off and or broken in 700,000 k's of riding..amazing that!

mike bike.. regarding covering the levers...mate i am far from paranoid, probably one of the least paranoid riders i know of ....i'll add a bit here...whenever my hands are on the bars, which is not 100% of the time , for sure,then i automatically assume the position as i said above.. i have done so for 50 years now and is just the way i do it, an old habit, in fact i can never remember not doing it....i don't even think about it...if all levers ,bars etc are in the correct place for me my hands just sit like that.as soon as i get on a bike....an added bonus is, of course that you are ''brake ready" at all times.. as for E braking, tho i practice this and many other roadcrafts frequently, i have very rarely had to do an emergency stop for real..once or twice maybe...

I've had more pull over and show docs on a bike here in BKK in a week , that i ever did in years in Chiang Mai....i was not at all 'startled'' but last night they kept asking about murrywanna...not sure if they were buying or selling...but bloody annoying whatever the reason..

First and foremost a rider must learn to 'cover the brakes' ...myself,i have always ridden two fingers permanently on brake lever and clutch lever....anywhere and everywhere....some riders like four fingers on brake alone....its up to the individual....for a beginner this may take time to master,but any competent rider should cover at least the front brakes at all times {IMO}...immediately on realising that you are in a position of imminent danger you should ,simultaneously ,squeeze the front brake,[ not grab a handful] apply some controlled pressure to the rear brake, de-clutch and gradually increase braking pressure, moreso on the front for maximum tyre compression/grip...I also change down through the gears at the same without actually engaging the clutch fully, just enough to smooth change.., thereby ,if the opportunity comes where you can/need to power away from the danger zone, you are ready to go....frequent practice of emergency stops is very beneficial/neccessary in order to be capable if and when you may need to make an emergency stop.....the more competent you are in all aspects of bike roadcraft the less likely you are to be in a predicament where emergency braking is required.

Does the squeeze the front brake versus grabbing a handful apply now-a-days with ABS for maximum stopping?

I understand you don't want to lock up your front wheel, and that the advice you gave is good for non-ABS bikes, but does it still apply when the ABS systems are only bested by a professional rider after multiple attempts?

I really don't know about 'grabbing a handful on ABS bikes TBH...My whole riding life i have used the squeeze for front braking and is second nature to do so....i have ridden ABS and as i often do at random is to practice emergency stops without even thinking about that aspect...smooth and controlled at all times...no harsh reactions..an old saying applies; "Fast riders have slow hands." .If i permanently rode ABS bike its possible that i may change my technique but going from ABS equipped to not ABS equipped and vice-versa as i do and finding oneself in a bad situation ,being in a mindset of grabbing a handful may well be your undoing if on that occassion i was on a non ABS bike..think i'll stick to my squeeze method.. PS i have no doubt that ABS do help in most situations..

Our discussion is a bit off-topic for the OP as he has a carb'd CBR150 which doesn't have ABS. It's still interesting to me at least. I have not been able to loft the rear wheel in a stoppie on either the CBR 150 nor the Ninja 250. Don't know if that's because I am chickenshit (not applying enough force-I think this is more likely) or the brake system just isn't up to it with my ample weight holding down the other end of the bike. On the 500X the bike stops in a very short distance in my experience when I try to make the brake lever part of the handlebar.

Stoppies are for stunt riders let them do it...i would think that there would be needed a lot of rider input , along with the right combination of good sticky tyre ,great brakes, good road surface and practice to do this stunt...Better race bikes can get the rear wheel off when hard braking [they don't neccessarily want it off] also because of the massive stopping abilities of their brakes and tyre grip that they have.....hone your more neccessary riding skills and ride, ride, ride..[there is no substitute at all for the experience of hours and hour and thousands of k's of bum on seat] and practice regularly emergency stops in all conditions, and bike attitudes ie cornering, or uphill, downhill.....know what you and your bike can do ,and do it without thinking if and when you are faced with a bad situation......

Another thread successfully turned into a nonsense argument that has nothing to do with the original post.

Not in the original post but the OP himself asked this..#16.........