beenitseenitdoneit

If I check the poll votes, about 90% of voters either want the police volunteers to only be involved with 'assistance' matters (translation, information etc), or don't want them to be involved with anything ==> not exist.

I know from experience over the years that the majority of visiting foreign tourists do support the efforts of the volunteers, (perhaps because they are only aware of the concept of volunteers, and don't have direct experience of dealing with them).

But the low opinion of expats about some individual volunteers or some types of work that they are involved in suggests to me that there are definite problems with the recruitment process and ongoing assessment/training programme.

And in that vein, I won't bother flagging up this poll result to my Thai police bosses because it will be ignored by them...

Don't forget that the expats are confusing tourist police volunteers with police volunteers. That coupled with the standard negativity here, I think the result is quite positive for tourist police volunteers.

You make a valid point here.

That there is a difference between tourist police volunteers and police volunteers.

I think it would be useful if you could please clarify what the distinctions are.

Where they can be found, how we can recognise them, and whether or not they are requested by the authorities to check, uphold and enforce Thai laws.

I would also be grateful if someone could please confirm, which of these two volunteer services are actively checking and enforcing motor bike licences and road tax, at the Chalong Hyack roundabout.

As per the suggestion above, I have created a separate thread with poll - please vote and comment!

I have just read one of your other posts on this subject from a different thread, it is so good it merits re-posting on this thread:

Quote

So, under Thai labour law, should he have a work permit, or not?

As I have stated on many previous threads, yes he should have a WP. No exception to this requirement exists in Thai Labour legislation.

The reason why he does not have a WP is because the Thai police believe themselves to be above the law. Many years ago (I have been a police volunteer since about 2006), I tried to persuade my Thai superiors to apply for WPs for the TPV team. It was like speaking to a brick wall.

A general comment:

Time and time again we read about crimes committed by police volunteers (Gary Halpin drugs, Dork ? body in the bin murder etc). Time and time again we read about totally unprofessional behavior of some of these foreign volunteers.

The bottom line is that something is clearly very amiss in the assessment and training program for these foreign volunteers for such crimes and behavior to occur.

Is a comprehensive background check being made for new volunteers? (I know that the true answer is no)

Do new applicants undergo psychological tests to ascertain their potential behavior 'in the field'? The answer is no

Are all volunteers monitored and assessed on a regular basis by a competent superior? The answer is no

Do all volunteers speak Thai language to a level sufficient to converse with any Thai police officer or member of the public at an incident? The answer is no

I could go on and on with my constructive criticism of the volunteer programs, but it is simply wasting my energy because no advice or constructive criticism from a foreigner would be taken on board. It's very frustrating!

I still work as a volunteer police officer, but restrict my activities to helping tourists at the airport - I see my work really as a 'PR' role for the Tourist Police for arriving tourists.

Simon

OK, here is my take on this.

First, this topic is raised numerous times on the forum. I suppose it is a controversial subject, so this type of thread is great for web hits

These threads usually get closed when the mud-flinging from the pro and con camps gets too much, so it is good that posts have been reasonably civil (so far).

It seems that no-one criticises the good work of the Immigration volunteers, (heavens knows what the immigration office would do without their help).

Nor do posters criticise 'information, translation and assistance' roles, such as providing help to tourists (directions, lost bags etc), translation (police reports in Thai),, or assistance in contacting family/embassy etc when a foreign tourist is injured or arrested. (These types of volunteer work usually go un-noticed by the critics of the foreign police volunteers).

What seems to anger some posters is when the foreign volunteer takes on a more visible and physical role, such as assisting at police check points and checking documents etc. Or working undercover to catch bar-owners opening out of hours etc.

As has already been stated in this thread, the foreign volunteers at the checkpoints are working under the instruction of the Thai (salaried, not volunteer), police officer. The authority that they have is transient for that purpose. That is the same for any Thai national volunteers working the same tasks.

That Thai police officer could have delegated the same authority to any other person, foreign or Thai, volunteer or otherwise. It is similar to 'citizens arrest', (which btw, is not a 'formal' arrest). Anyone can make a citizens arrest in the right circumstances, (catching a thief red-handed etc, and detaining them until a police officer arrives).

Do some foreign police volunteers exceed their duty? Yes

Do some foreign police volunteers NOT exceed their duty? Yes!

Are some foreign police volunteers on a 'wanabee cop' trip? Yes!!

Are some foreign police volunteers working for the good of the foreign community and tourists? Absolutely.

My personal view (as a foreign police volunteer who has done this work in Phuket for about 8 years, and also in Bangkok and in Pattaya), is that unless the background vetting, ongoing training and assessment process of foreign police volunteers is greatly improved, the duties of these volunteers should be restricted to 'Tourist Assistance' duties, such as I have mentioned above.

As a note to add, I have never taken part in any police checkpoints, or undercover work or...or...That (imho), is police work for qualified and experienced police officers. If this type of work requires a foreign police officer, then they should be working in a salaried role with the Thai police.

I think you are really hitting the nail on the head here Simon43.

At the end of the day I think this whole issue about the Touist police Volunteers boils down to two points, in fact maybe somebody might be kind enough to start a poll on this subject:

What role do you feel that the Farang Tourist Police Volunteers should be playing:

1, Solely to offer help and assistance

2. The above and Thai law enforcement

I get sick hearing all the complaints about the Tourist Police from posters who have NO idea what they do, and what authority they have.

ALL Tourist Police volunteers act under orders / instructions from the Duty Officer of the unit. The authority comes from the INSTRUCTIONS the THAI DUTY OFFICER gives them. Foreign police volunteers are under the same instructions, BUT mainly deal with foreign tourists, while Thai volunteers deal with the Thai people.

"""I certainly would not stop for any of the wannabies!"" Many of the FOREIGN """wannabies""" have many years as police officers / detectives / inspectors or in the private sector in their original countries. I know of one ''''FOREIGN wannabie""" that was on the British Crown's protection detail.

ALL volunteers may stop you, ask for ID, and in the worst case "take you in custody" IF you are violating Thai law.

Ask the Japanese tourist who lost their child how grateful they are to the ''''FOREIGN wannabie''' who found the child 4 blocks away from where the child should have been. Ask the tourist about the ''''FOREIGN wannabie''' who got their gold chain back after it was ripped off their neck. Ask the tourist who was urinated on by a dancer and his statement was translated to the Thai authoritied by a ''''FOREIGN wannabie''' how he now feels now about the "justice" he received.

You are in a foreign country, the police question you, you DO NOT KNOW THE LANGUAGE the police are speaking, a ''''FOREIGN wannabie''' assists you in communication - I think you are in a MUCH better position with the help of the ''''FOREIGN wannabie'''

Oh, I forgot to mention, the ''''FOREIGN wannabies''' carry a list of phone ( on their phone ) numbers of the ''''FOREIGN wannabies''' that speak YOUR language, Chinese, Japanese, Arabic, Italian, Spanish, and etc

From what you said your organisation are obviously doing some excellent and invaluable work.

Understandable you are getting sick of the perceived misrepresentations on this thread and others.

Thank you for finally adding some clarity.

You have been granted the authority to verify if someone is driving legally.

This is good to know, what really and solely distinguishes you from the Royal Thai Police then is the fact that you can speak another language.

Why are the Tourist Police flagging down motorcycles? What has that got to do with tourism? Do they only flag down tourists? Also what is the "weighing down the motorcycle" about?

Weighing down traffic and motor bikes by hand, is an English expression.

I suppose because no flags are used.

The problem with the tourist police is that the tourists actually think the tourist police is on their side in disputes with Thais, which makes it very easy for Thais and the tourist police to join hands in various scams.

Simple example, which happens daily.

Jetski damage demand - 100k

Tourist police arrive and "negotiate" it down to 60k.

Tourists think they "saved" 40k, and thank the tourist police for their help.

After the tourists leave, the tourist police get their cut of the 60k.

To answer the OPs question, tourist police should have no powers whatsoever, and they should be called something else to avoid confusion.

From the example that you have quoted here, perhaps the Extortion Police.

i assume the OP is referring to the foreign Tourist Police volunteers.

Here's a question to the OP.

The Thai Tourist Police have both foreign and Thai volunteers in their volunteer teams, (actually many more Thai volunteers than non-Thai volunteers).

Would the OP object if a Thai TP volunteer flagged him down and inspected his driving documents? Or is it a problem for the OP because the volunteer is not Thai.

As I previously stated, I think most tourist and western residents would have no objections to a Farang flagging them down, and certainly no objections to a Thai Tourist Police volunteer either.

You can include me in both of the above.

Having got the race, colour and religion issue out of the way, again I would like to ask has anybody seen this authority in writing, whereby it states that volunteers are legally permitted to ask for these documents.

Tourist police are not the same as Immigration foreign volunteers.

Which is the OP talking about?

I am glad you have highlighted this point, I had mistaken thought they were one.

The Phuket Immigration Volunteer Programme as it is seemingly known, are a first class bunch of guys.

However it is the Tourist Police Volunteers that I am referring to, when it comes to assisting the Thai Police.

First of all to all the Tourist Police that are working in the immigration offices in Thailand, I would like to extend my heart felt thanks and gratitude, for all the tremendous help and advise they provide to the Farang community.

I think most readers would have no objections to Farangs assisting the Thai Police in their duties.
For instance weighing down motor bikes, so that the officer in charge can duly check that all is in order.
But for the Tourist Police in question to actually ask for, inspect documentation, and make any kind of legal judgement or recommendation to the officer in charge, I believe is taking all of this onto a different level.

At this point I am curious if they have any legal jurisdiction to carry out such acts.
Has anything to this effect been laid down in writing in their code of practice, charter, mandate call it what you like, either by the Tourist Police themselves, or those that commission them.

So if it is the case that they do in fact have this legal authority, then for all intensive purposes the regular Thai Police are somewhat academic.
The Tourist Police could be setting up these tolls, and for appearances sake if the authorities were still a bit uncomfortable, wanted to add an air of authenticity to all of this, then one of those cut out Police could be erected alongside.

The point I am trying to make in this post is, where do you draw the line, has it been crossed already in this example.
And if not just how far do you think this "assisting" should go.

Until life has a value in Thailand, the number of deaths each year will probably increase.

Change the culture first, then this might have an impact.

What culture?

The culture that it is possible to interfere that these poor souls don't have to die this way, that it is NOT ordained.

My choice:

Chris Rea - The road to hell & lyrics (complete):

Is the level of violence , perceived or factual, higher than that of other countries?

It struck me many, many years ago when I first got off the plane in Bangkok, that there was a profound under current of violence here.
Maybe I was just over sensitive, but has anyone else picked this up?

The longer I say here the more it feels like some giant pressure cooker, all it needs is a small spark over a small incident, to set off some kind of explosion.
As if years of mai pen rais have been bottled up on a daily basis, and when this frustration is finally released, you don't want to be around to witness it.

Usufructs to foreigners are very commonly turned down at Phuket land office. They have no right to, but they just do.

I had one approved there quite recently.

'Just exactly that sort of inconsistency, and that kind of arbitrariness, that's so maddening. What to some is "thainess" is to others the epitome of backwardness and "third world".

(Ok, cue the "love-it-or-leave-it" harpies...)

I had a number of transactions go through that office in an orderly and timely fashion.

A lot depends on whether you are prepared to do things the "Thai" way or not;

More corruption - I hope you are proud of yourself.

I don't know what's worse the Farangs who aid and abet all of this corruption, or the Thais who request it.

Anyway if there should ever be a test case on your successful approval, at least we can all rest assured that it will be declared illegal.

Great news.

If it looks likes a duck, walks like a duck and quakes like a duck, why is it that the real estate industry along with the litigation fraternity, still believe it must be a pig.
A pig in a poke if there ever was one.

And for all those charlatans that have conjured up extra terrestrial leases through offshore accounts, don't worry your day will come soon.

For those that are unable to read the letter of the law, 30 years full stop, no not 30 years and a day, has it ever crossed your mind to decipher the actual spirit of the law?
Why, when and how was this legislation passed, no it wasn't because then or now that Farangs were the flavour of the week.

Outside of the Lady Boys this is a serious question.
I say that as I was quite taken aback to hear a female Thai saying, she refuses to engage eye contact with her male Thai counterparts.
Not so much of a case that she refuses to talk to them, rather a case she even refuses to look at them.

I would like to hear from anybody who has heard of, or has had direct or indirect knowledge of a case, whereby a Thai national has been released early, before the completion of his sentence.

How was this done in practice, who did they have to know.

I have specifically not mentioned his offence, as I hope this tread can be about other successful early releases, rather than the merits of his individual case.

Spot the "temporary structures"

Twin Palms

Bliss Beach Club

Bliss Beach Club

Bliss Beach Club

A beach club in Bangtao Beach

Catch Beach Club

Catch Beach Club

Diamond Beach Club

Paresa Resort's new Zazada Beach Club

Does anybody know if any of the current beach clubs are illegal, and if so what laws may they be currently breaking.
I am referring to any permanent structures, and crossing over any boundary lines and Chanote title deeds.
The definition of permanent structures.
Finally who's responsibility it is to enforce these laws.

How many British Immigration workers speak Thai ?
Give us a break.

13 years in Thailand. Can't speak Thai?
Make that 18 years in my case.

touché
Slam dunk.

Sorry m'lud, said while shuffling feet, wringing flat cap in hands and trying to tug forelock all at the same time.
Good to see you know you place.

It is, in my opinion, the absolute hight of arrogance and ignorance to expect your Mother tongue to be spoken no matter where one happens to be in the world.
Get real, who's paying who in this equation. In fact we have an idiom for this, it starts He who pays the piper ...., I wonder if you can finish it?

There is a saying goes this way- when in Rome, do as the Romans' do.
Can't remember that being the case back in "44.

Read somewhere that a person who speaks three languages is tri-lingual, a person who speaks two is bi-lingual and a person who speaks only one language is generally English.
One day hopefully this will not be necessary.

As you observe English is a very long way from being a "universal language" !
But we're working on it.

This time around, I have been here almost 10 years and Key Mah (ride a horse) still sounds exactly like Key Mah (dog poop).
Finally at long last someone has hit the nail on the head. Thai is not a language but a toneage.
Yes I'm inventing a new word here, the ability to communicate through tones and sounds as opposed to words.
For most westerners we cannot even sing in tune, so for some reason we simple do not hear these tones, let alone have the ability to imitate them.
For all you proficient and non proficient Thai speakers, I have yet to sit down in a restaurant with you, where you have had the ability to even order a meal correctly in Thai from a menu.
Why, because without exception what has arrived in the past has bore no resemblance to what had been been actually ordered.
So if you can't even order a meal successfully, pray tell me, learn Thai for what?

You say "we are guests here"... some people live here XX years already, working, making businesses rising children... just living.
So my question is when we can expect to not be guests any more? Or we have to just agree that we are guests or citizens (even not) 2nd category for the rest of our life?
When will everybody get it, we are not guests in Thailand, we are PAYING guests.
And by definition as soon we stop paying we are shown the door.

I can speak Thai face to face but too have some difficulty on the phone.
That's because you cannot read their lips.

However, the arrogance of some (and I stress SOME, not all) native English speakers has always turned my stomach! A lot of them have no idea of what it means studying and mastering a language, simply because they've never been required to!
Oh yes, how I long for the days of the Empire.

But if I have to go to IMMIGRATION OFFICE when all the clients are IMMIGRANTS.
If you think it is unreasonable that those working there do not speak proficient English, then pray tell me what language do you feel we should converse in - Thai?

God forbid, smart bright people running the country. Who'd want that?
Think about it, they already are.

I simple hate, loathe and detest the Thai festivals.

The season kicks off with the only that I have remotely any time for - Loi Katoey, from then on in it's all down hill in a big way.

The Thais seem to be masters of ripping of the Farangs, exploiting their vunerabillities over Halloween, Guy Fawkes and Christmas.

And if all of this was not enough to contend with we've got to endure the Vegetarian Festival, New Year, Chinese New Year and God foresake us Songran.

But let's all relish this moment, all we've still got to get through is the latter, and then bliss, six months free of unadulterated festivals.

Ever played the game pick up sticks, where you have to start off all over again.

Well Thailand and Asia are a bit like that, going back to go. Maybe something that we only do once in our lives.

Time for some revaluations, have you changed, in fact do you bear any resemblance to the guy you left behind?

With all things being equal, who would you trust more in Thailand, employing a Farang or a Thai?

Healthy cynicism of lawyers, their fees and value for money but in a country that's likely more corrupt than your home and where you have far less legal rights yet checks that may be seen as basic in your home country get thrown out with the bathwater?

It's one thing to have carried out full due dilligence (including but not limited to the full history of the title) and to then asses the risk and your comfort with it against the money invested and or desire to retain your property before buying and at a particular price,

and quite another to fail to carry that out and find out later when you've pulled the trigger on relatively little information.

As an english language board can assume many here who might be interested in these issues may end up with a structure attempting to approximate their use and control of land with perhaps the hope of exiting with some money or passing on to heirs etc - to varying degrees of strength. Essentially these are houses of cards of varying degrees of strength but houses of cards nonetheless. Why then decide to not even check whether you are building them on the sand of poor title? (And even if Thai or for a Thai spouse to hold why decide not to check whetehr you are building their non-card house on sand anyway?).

The starting point is that no liability arises from the mistake (deliberate or honest) of a government official.

So Land X has a chanote, you, your thai spouse and or thai lawyer has checked with the land office and it is indeed registreted as chanote, relates to the exact parcel of land you think it does, the seller is the owner and there is no mortgage etc.. However without full due dilligence you won't know whether that chanote was correctly issued and therefore whether its capable of being rescinded at a later date.

Full due dilligence should also look into zoning and whether what you want to built / is already there is legal and will be allowed to stay.

It should also confirm that the building permit is genuine and fit for purpose.

Have personally seen chanotes issued for forestry and other land that plainly would not stand up to any sort of challenge, as well as chanotes being issued where the history of the land simply doesn't support a chanote being issued for Khun Y as well as properties (at the very highest end) built illegally.

On specific instances we might then be in a discussion of how likely any problems may be (though a national crackdown is never needed to affect one property - disgruntled neighbour, indebted / soon retiring local official etc is enough) but for an individual and their own money to simply ignore the issue of looking into the sandyness of their legal foundations isn't entirely prudent.

If we're not interested in even considering issues such as these then this subforum should perhaps be limited to issues relating to squatting only.

If we might be interested, then how much is reasonable for a lawyer to provide this service?

If you read, write and speak fluent Thai, have a good grasp on how and why titles should be upgraded, zoning and building permits amongst other things and have a healthy rapport with the relevant local officals then I'm sure you'll be fine in obtaining, checking and interpreting all the information.

If not, how much is it worth?

First of all I would like to thank everyone who has responded to my post.

I am a bit taken aback that nobody has either done this suggestion, an investigation of the entire relevant title file(s) of a particular land plot, nor employed others to do this on their behalf.

Once my son of two and a half is of age, maybe he can do this for me in the years to come.