stephen terry

CCTV Camera run 24/7. There are loads of cameras as we have already seen clips from them.

The owner of the bar wont allow police to look at his footage cause its private property.

Let's run this one again. Seems to me to be deliberately withholding possible evidence with the sanction of the RTP. It doesn't take much to reason that had the Burmese been involved, the CCTV would have been handed over, PDQ. A reasonable person would then conclude that perhaps the CCTV implicated people, other than the chosen scapegoats, who wouldn't, couldn't be, Thai.

Actually a reasonable person doesn't use his own ignorance as a basis for a conclusion, you only can consider one option completely ignoring the other: that the CCTV footage is immaterial to the crime. You don't know either way.

For example (and I am not actually making the allegation): I don't know whether you are working for the defense team and being paid for posting in ThaiVisa or not, but I'm just going to assume that as true and act accordingly because it is self reassuring and it would reinforce some of my preconceived notions. Would you take that as a reasonable attitude?

I would reason that if the CCTV was immaterial there would be no advantage to withhold it from the RTP. Especially if it implicates the Burmese. The simplest motive is that there could be incriminating evidence against a 'protected person' or 'persons', thus it would be material.

I am sure the defence are quite able to reason similarly to me, not that they could do any more than cast doubt as to why. My preconceived notion (because it has already been decided) is that the Burmese will be found guilty of some, if not all, of the charges - I hope that satisfies you.

There has been no trial yet. That means nothing has been decided regarding guilt or innocence. The judges will make those decisions based on the evidence in the trial.

Even though I think you must be a little naive, I do hope the judge is and will remain impartial. We shall see.

Unlocked doors, 30 thousand THB in cash at home!!! Stupid people, that's it.

Now lets see, when you drive past a house can you see if the door is l;locked or unlocked?

Answer : No

If a burglar intends to rob your house, will he be deterred by a locked door?

Answer : Most probably not, instead he will force his way inside, through that door or a window. Thereby causing you more damage.

Anthony5

Thanks for that top tip.

I will now leave my doors unlocked to prevent more damage. Thanks.

Another benefit of it is that you can't lose your keys.

I'll tell you what. You leave your house unlocked, and I'll keep mine locked. Then let's see who gets burgled?

CCTV Camera run 24/7. There are loads of cameras as we have already seen clips from them.

The owner of the bar wont allow police to look at his footage cause its private property.

Let's run this one again. Seems to me to be deliberately withholding possible evidence with the sanction of the RTP. It doesn't take much to reason that had the Burmese been involved, the CCTV would have been handed over, PDQ. A reasonable person would then conclude that perhaps the CCTV implicated people, other than the chosen scapegoats, who wouldn't, couldn't be, Thai.

Actually a reasonable person doesn't use his own ignorance as a basis for a conclusion, you only can consider one option completely ignoring the other: that the CCTV footage is immaterial to the crime. You don't know either way.

For example (and I am not actually making the allegation): I don't know whether you are working for the defense team and being paid for posting in ThaiVisa or not, but I'm just going to assume that as true and act accordingly because it is self reassuring and it would reinforce some of my preconceived notions. Would you take that as a reasonable attitude?

I would reason that if the CCTV was immaterial there would be no advantage to withhold it from the RTP. Especially if it implicates the Burmese. The simplest motive is that there could be incriminating evidence against a 'protected person' or 'persons', thus it would be material.

I am sure the defence are quite able to reason similarly to me, not that they could do any more than cast doubt as to why. My preconceived notion (because it has already been decided) is that the Burmese will be found guilty of some, if not all, of the charges - I hope that satisfies you.

What this topic is about -- if you can remember the topic heading -- is that a trial of the 2 Burmese accused will begin this summer. At that point, the defense, at a minimum, may be able to show that any evidence put forward by the prosecution does not warrant a finding of guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

What likely will not happen is that the defense will be able to pull off some Perry Mason courtroom moment by proving that some other person or persons is responsible for these crimes which seems to be the major focus of most of those posting on this and similar topics.

The focus should be on proving they didn't do it.

Its fair and reasonable to expect that in doing that, they may provide evidence that it was probably MR A or B etc

What they should focus on is getting 3rd party verification to disprove the DNA. Its the DNA that will kill them.

A bit of video etc don't do it. There was no video on the beach.

The UK should have done what was agreed my the 2 Prime Ministers. Simple.

Ok Ale G

That is false logic. While it is correct to aim to prove they didn't do it because blah, blah, no judge would accept it could have been A or B - that's fantasy without solid proof.

DNA on its own is only circumstantial evidence, it needs more to prove beyond reasonable doubt, but in any event I am hopeful the defence can shred the DNA evidence as being contaminated or not processed independently or whatever.

There was CCTV aimed at the beach from AC bar (as I understand it from a very early report), but these were withheld by the headman, and supported by the RTP as being private property. If the Burmese had been involved, I have no doubt that the CCTV would have been released post-haste.

As to the two PMs, its all rhetoric - a load of BS to appease the masses in both countries.

100%. She's a diamond. Told me today that her daughter is proud of me, and so is she. And this, coming from a farmer's daughter. I am humbled.

The police was already on the trail of the three Burmese before Panya's transfer... but don't let facts get on the way of a good conspiracy.

In a sense you're right. From the get-go, Thai officials have wanted to nail Burmese or, 2nd best was farang. Not Thai, and certainly not anyone connected to the headman (except his Burmese employees). Panya (the initial head cop) was doing a lukewarm job of leading the investigation. However, when it became clear he wasn't shielding the Headman's people (and not fingering any Burmese), he was abruptly pulled from the position as top dog. In other countries, including Thailand, if a top official gets started on an important assignment, he/she won't be pulled abruptly away unless that person is doing something very wrong. In this case, the initial top cop was focusing on the Headman's people as prime suspects - a complete no-no. It didn't help that a taxi driver popped up and accused cops of offering to pay Bt.300k to be a false witness, and knocking him around when he refused.

As for 'police already on the trail of the three Burmese' ....the truth is; police had DNA-tested hundreds of Burmese migrants prior, and claimed publicly that "all had been cleared." It's certain that the 3 scapegoats were in that first batch. So, by them getting cleared, and then 'matched' a week later, is further evidence (if any were needed) of a frame-up, and a sloppy one, at that. Similar to the planted phone or the so-called investigation in general, Thai officials aren't even adept at framing up some Burmese migrants.

In the old days, such ruses were much easier to implement. Now, with pesky social media ("Let's sue them all !!") it's more difficult to pull the wool over hundreds of thousands of eyes and ears. Even so, the prosecution only needs to convince one or two judges - who are paid by the same people who pay the cops/officials/prosecution, and who know who wields political/military power in Thailand. Even with so much evidence showing a blatant frame-up, I give the Burmese scapegoats a 50/50 chance of getting acquitted.

As usual, you make things up to cling to a narrative not supported by facts.

Your first paragraph is nothing but self serving make believe, easily disproven by facts such as Thais being in the list of suspects at some time or another, Panya's transfer being scheduled since before the murders, the three Burmese being suspects since before the change in the investigation leadership, etc, etc...

This is false: "It's certain that the 3 scapegoats were in that first batch."

This is false too: "Similar to the planted phone"

This too is false: "Even with so much evidence showing a blatant frame-up" As I explained to you many times, speculation is not evidence.

Before you talk about people pulling the wool over someones eyes, try some honesty in your arguments.

Actually, it's not false. Sorry to rain on your parade. And before you answer, prove it, buster, <deleted>

In your Farang countries you would probably say "case closed = good police job".

Why different in Thailand?

Oh sorry, I forgot: Dead Farang smells like a God was killed.

Now I can recognize the thai attitude again : Thais dontl ike to be critizeised or told the thruth about how it is in their country with many things, ,

But let me tell you : Every day there is attacks o n" farangs" - from thais it is allways our own fault.. or it is Burmese or cambodians or some one other but it is NEVER thais who do something wrong wright ?

The problem in your country is that the police dont do anything to find out what is actually happened - they are scared what can hapens if it is a thai who did the crime.. because the whole populatio nare brainwashed from childhood.. how wodnerfull country they have and that they NEVER do something bad -

I can hear it on you - as soon some want to tell you the thruth - you get evvil " dead farang smells" you jump on peopels feeligns who has lost their dear which only wnated to go on holiday in the " land of smiles"

You country are rotten from bottom to top - it isn ot the people on the street I blame I meet many nice thais who is still my friends but the problem is that you DONT WANT to understand there are something wrong with your system it is as a south american banana republic with a growing crime rate -

No we dont pay a bribe to the police - that is corruption - as in your country - we pay it by tax and the police in our countries really try to do a HONEST JOB -

But it is notl ike that in your country which is pathetic and not very brigth people who run it.. to many hands wants to put money in their own pocket and they dont care about honesty and truth of fair play

One last question :

yo ucal lus from " farang country"

Can you mention 10 countries by name in Europe ?

Thais odnt know anything about the wolrd cause they dont learn anything and if there are something they dont understand they get angry agressive and violent primi´tive

goodbye Thailand you are o nthe way dont and you can blame only yourself !

To be honest, he's not been educated outside the Thai system. It will take decades to open up the mindset, that's if anyone is interested.

For the avoidance of doubt I dug these out to add to your time lines . No goaty beard .

Also found these images of two suspects lining up for DNA swab. I have no idea what day that was , but it's on the beach and looks pretty early on given that there are other lining up too.

Yes, I agree the Burmese 2 lined up for the DNA swab. And that the first police general said that all had been cleared. However, the 2nd general said that not all results had been returned, and by magic those that were later returned were indeed a match. Hence the arrest of the Burmese 2.

If the RTP were going to find scapegoats, the second version had to be clarified as being the truth.

Not counting the wounds on the neck which are not bruises and were obviously not caused by the rope...................No bruising from the rope around his neck would indicate he was dead before he was hanged, whearas the bruising from the rope around his wrists would indicate he was alive when his hands were tied..............Well spotted the Criminologist........

It is simply good for the country that someone is speaking out. First the top forensic expert in the country, with regard to David and Hannah, and now a reputable guy like this, in regard to this latest "murder". Change is only going to happen here if it is forced upon the relevant parties. It will not happen because it is the right thing to do, or to benefit the Thai masses. It will happen out of deep embarrassment, or humiliation. It may happen due to outside forces. Regardless. The more people that blow the cover off the RTP, and the government cover up, the better. Keep it up guys. Keep the pressure on the army and the coddled, overly protected, incompetent police force. These police matters should never be allowed to be politicized, as they are being done now.

Of course the fact that the reputable guy is factually wrong on a fundamental detail (he claiming there were no injuries on the neck) is of absolutely no consequence to you, is it?

He says something you agree with you and you don't feel the need to run it through the merest rudiments of critical thinking before accepting it.

Thai BPS report, the broadcaster you can trust: Wounds were discovered around the man’s neck as well as two 5 cm lacerations to his arm, one near his wrist, and the second near to his elbow.

Bruises or wounds around the neck? A bruise or laceration near his wrist? Quite a few wounds and lacerations, then - no mention of bruises? Open verdict on the basis of the above. What is clear is that the so-called RTP 'autopsy' was inadequate in determining exact cause of death. A shambles, really. No wonder there has been speculation.

Criminologist doubts suicide theory of a tourist

BANGKOK: -- A criminologist has voiced his support for calls by media and relatives of a victim of suspected suicide by the police and forensic experts to look for more evidences to determine the exact cause of the death the victim.

The victim who was a tourist was found dead in his hotel room on New Year’s Day with his hands and neck tied to ropes. Police suspected he committed suicide by hanging himself.

But Associate Professor Charnkanit Krittiya Suriyamanee, a criminologist and lecturer at the faculty of social science and humanities of Mahidol University, said he doubted the suicide theory citing some irrelevant evidences.

He said that the victim had been drunk to the extent that he was unable to control himself, he would not have been able to tie himself up so tightly that he died of suffocation.

Had he hanged himself, the professor pointed out that the bruises should have appeared on the neck than on his wrists. Also, he noted that the several pieces of rope which were used in the suspected suicide appeared to be different which might suggest that the death was not caused by suicide.

The wound on the victim’s elbow could have been inflicted by someone else, he said.

He also suggested that it was not too late to check the level of alcohol in the body of the dead victim to find out if he was drunk or not.

Source: http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/criminologist-doubts-suicide-theory-tourist

-- Thai PBS 2015-01-06

So,,, let the TVF "Criminologists" who routinely defend the RTP on ANY subject they're suspected of, corrupting/fouling up,,,, start tearing into this guy,,,, I'm sure he knows not of what he speaks, compared to all you, "experts"...... This guy is saying/questioning nearly exactly the same inconsistancies that many of us on here have said from day one,,,,, lol

Not counting the wounds on the neck which are not bruises and were obviously not caused by the rope...................No bruising from the rope around his neck would indicate he was dead before he was hanged, whearas the bruising from the rope around his wrists would indicate he was alive when his hands were tied..............Well spotted the Criminologist........

It is simply good for the country that someone is speaking out. First the top forensic expert in the country, with regard to David and Hannah, and now a reputable guy like this, in regard to this latest "murder". Change is only going to happen here if it is forced upon the relevant parties. It will not happen because it is the right thing to do, or to benefit the Thai masses. It will happen out of deep embarrassment, or humiliation. It may happen due to outside forces. Regardless. The more people that blow the cover off the RTP, and the government cover up, the better. Keep it up guys. Keep the pressure on the army and the coddled, overly protected, incompetent police force. These police matters should never be allowed to be politicized, as they are being done now.

If this guy's analysis proves to be factual, and the evidence points more to homicide than suicide, the RTP are in deep mire. Loss of faeces comes to mind.

IMHO, should the above be regarded as a homicide, it would be about bl**dy time the PM demanded some accountability on Koh Tao, or would he be comfortable letting untouchable killers roam the island at will? But the good news would be that the Burmese 2 defence would look stronger every day.

Once again the people on here supporting the expert are just as absurd as those who might denigrate him. In any case of sudden death anywhere in the world a defence team can find an expert to say one thing and a prosecution team can find an expert to say the complete opposite.

That's how the defence of the Burmese will disassemble the prosecution's DNA evidence. In this case I would suggest bruises on the wrist and the absence of them on the neck needs a lot of explaining how the guy hung himself to death.

Ok..... Adjourned until 15th October. If trial not over will be adjourned again.

Defence can request copy of UK Autopsy. Up to Coroner whether she releases it.

So there was a UK autopsy after all. The contents couldn't prejudice the trial anymore than the FCO family statement.

Alternative suicide note for you guys in case you find yourself in a similar situation:

Rachael, everyone doesn't really understand me.

Dr. Porntip - good for her saying it's too early to rule it a suicide. At last, someone with the forensic qualifications to voice an open opinion before the RTP can cremate the body (hopefully).

To be resolved:

Actual cause of death - caused by the rope?

Any other observations that could impact, e.g. cuts to the neck, arm, wrist.

Toxicology report

Statements from friends, family - their opinions on his state of mind, worries, concerns etc.

Analysis of the suicide note, writing comparison. Enquiries as to who Iris is

Analysis of the crime scene - e.g. was a knife, blade found with the victim's DNA on it?

Reconstruction to determine feasibility

Any other witnesses - who found the body?

If, on the balance of doubt, all answers point to suicide rather than foul play, I am sure most posters on TV would accept a confirmation statement by Dr. Porntip. (That's an ideal (wishful thinking by me) that may never happen, based on previous deaths on Koh Tao and elsewhere. But I only hope she's a witness for the Burmese defence.)

re // 104.

Instead of that one prefers to insult the RTP and declare Thai pathologists incompetent. I find that pathetic.

Your opinion is noted, but you are a long way from understanding what goes on in Thailand.

Before we start to develop our own conclusions based on how much drink we had or how much we like or dislike Thai government agencies I would suggest to read a book edited by Michael Tsokos MD who is I quote “Professor Michael Tsokos is the Director of the Institute of Forensic Sciences and Legal Medicine, Charite – Universitatsmedizin Berlin, in Berlin, Germany.

He is also the Director of the Governmental Institute of Forensic and Social Medicine in Berlin, Germany. He is the primary or senior author of more than 200 scientific publications in international peer-reviewed journals and the author as well as editor of a number of books dealing with topics of forensic pathology.

I wonder what he would have to say about it when reading the comments made by the armchair police officers here on this forum or the hobby pathologists.

Michael Tsokos was here after the Tsunami hit Thailand working side by side with international teams and Thai pathologists to identify the victims. No criticism from his end but only praise for their abilities.

The book contains contributions from pathologists from around the world and even Asia, which might shock the TV commentators. Reading these publications one might find that stranger things have happened as someone tying his hands and placing his head through noose to commit suicide. But that wouldn’t go down to well on this forum, would it?

Instead of that one prefers to insult the RTP and declare Thai pathologists incompetent. I find that pathetic.

I (and probably all of the TV posters) am not doubting the qualifications of Dr Tsokos, or his assessment of the work carried out by the Thai pathologists after the Tsunami. However, there was probably not much doubt as to the cause of death in the majority of the Tsunami victims, suicide certainly not being one of them. In this particular case, most people doubt that it was suicide because of the victim's hands tied behind his back, and also the cuts present on the body. Most posters would probably agree that It would be POSSIBLE for the victim to have inflicted the cuts on himself, tied his hands behind his back, put his head through a noose and hung himself, but is it PROBABLE? Especially bearing in mind that he had been drinking for more than 12 hours previously, and the possibility of a drunk man being capable of the "step through" technique described in previous posts seems unlikely. Add to that, the botched up RTP investigations into the murders of the 2 English backpackers, the contamination of the crime scene, the contradictory statements put out by very high ranking police officers, dubious DNA findings/results, and numerous substantiated reports of corruption in the highest ranks of the RTP, is it any wonder that people are a bit cynical about any findings?

Yes, I agree 100%. Thai User is comparing apples with pears. Both are fruits, but the scenario is completely different. The main difference is that after 12 hours or more of drinking the victim was able to carry out this 'suicide' as described. I would also suggest that Thai User familiarise herself with the murders of David and Hannah before making an ill-judged comment on this suspicious death.

My own opinion is that the RTP are willing to take the easy way out, whatever the cause of death. It could be suicide or it could be murder, but they don't care as has been proven before.

The location Dimitri was reported found is a "rented beach side bungalow at Moo 3 Koh Tao". This is not very precise, and photos suggest that it was not exactly on the beach. Fwiw, Moo 3 implies the Southern end of the island, some way from Ocean Front Bungalows where Hannah and David were staying. If Dimitri was home (and staying in this bungalow at the time) he likely would not have heard or seen anything of the events early morning September 15.

Good point BT, but there was a football tornament on the 14th with a big party afterwards so he might have been socialising..... and the only reference I have read of Hanna having an argument with some Thai guys in the AC bar is attributed to an unnamed French man, who apparently took a photo (not seen) of the altercation and passed the photo to the BIB, I am not talking about the photo taken by Sean in the 7/11, even though that photo was used in the news article.

Agree with everything you say, but any possible link is tenuous. I would imagine there would have been a lot of Frenchmen visiting Koh Tao on September 14-15. If the pictures from the scene did not make the suicide hard to accomplish, I would opine that it was almost certainly unrelated. As it is, I am looking for further data. There are other indications that it might be suicide. What the police say about no signs of a struggle looks right. The table on the verandah has what looks like a liquor bottle and the top of a glass. That is consistent with an alcohol induced depression.

First I've heard of a Frenchman taking a photo of an altercation and passing it to the BIB. I've heard rumours of an altercation, but that's it - no confirmation.

Hi,

After 4 previous visits to Thailand, (having deliberately avoided Pattaya + Phuket), we have "bitten the bullet" and have flights from OZ to KL and on to Surat Thani in June for three weeks, so we could at least satisfy our curiosity regarding Samui and neighbouring islands.

The plan was to visit KS, KP, and KT, then ferry to Chumphon, Lang Suan, and bus back to Surat Thani.

It now seems wise to avoid Koh Tao altogether.

or: avoid the islands altogether, and add Sichon, and Khanom to the itinerary ?

FWIW we are late 50s euros from australia, who would like to avoid trouble and have no interest in the seedy side of life, know it goes on any where, but heck, sometimes its bleedin' obvious.

I lived in Khanom for a few years - it is peaceful with a few local and friendly restaurants/bars on beach road catering for tourists. Gradually becoming more popular. Beautiful paradise and restful - Google it. Sichon is more typically a Thai town, not a lot to see and do, but it does have one beach bay that is worth a day trip.

From Khanom you can catch the ferry at Donsak across to Samui - the north of the island is away from the 'entertainment'. All venues will have some rain in June, that's to be expected, but not enough to spoil a holiday. Samui does have the advantage that you can catch baht buses to travel around without having to hire a motorbike, but they're not cheap at night.

If you want a small resort contact in Khanom, PM me.

I would like to lean towards the suicide assertion because the foul-play alternatives, such as sending a message, are far more horrific. The simplest scenario would have been a hanging with a chair kicked away. I agree it could be a suicide but because there are cuts to his neck, arm, and wrist, plus his hands knotted behind his back, it is not so simple - and it is right and proper to suspect foul play until proven otherwise.

The 'proven otherwise' could be forensic examination results, suicide note, plus opinions from friends and family as to his state of mind that make the suicide option the most likely cause of death, however convoluted.

The murder option, IMO, is becoming less likely because it doesn't fit the pattern of a gang attack as in the murders of Hannah and David - this would be cold, controlled emotion, not rage. For this reason, I think this death is unconnected to theirs, although it cannot be ruled out because it happened on the same island.

What is more worrying, despite the extensive media coverage, is the killers total disregard. This indicates that he/they need to be identified and caught before any more deaths are recorded on Koh Tao.

You could also check all the control tower records in the area to see if there were any charter helicopters operating in the area that morning. And if there were no charter helicopters operating in the area that morning, that could just mean that all the control tower records have been 'cleansed'.

...and check whether he had a police escort from Chumpon. Shouldn't be too difficult...

Maybe a Koh Tao police officer can show us how the french man could have hanged himself with hands-tied-behind-his-back, jumping from the balcony railing, with two 5cm lacerations to his arm.

What the hell is going on there, on Koh Tao?

Yes indeed what the HELL is going on in Koh Tao?

How many murder cases do they need to do something?

Unfair. They find non-Thai scapegoats. That's doing something.