Mark Wolfe

'I believe it's your (responsibility) to pull your partner up (if possible and if necessary) rather than have them live in a social class below yours...'

I think similarly in the cases where, like here in Thailand often, the local girl makes in a month of hard work what I can make in an eight-hour day at the computer.

I think we are sidetracked (interestingly) on compensating one's mate. Perhaps it's just the way Parallaxtech explains it, but I am not sure I'd want his sort of relationship. I also think that repeating, "Many of her friends would love to live [in Parallaxtech's wife's situation, since]...they work their behinds off only to go live in a shack with a drunken boyfriend who beats them," is disingenuous. I hardly think this is the norm in Samui.

And to Parallaxtech: You say, "I'm surprised that the mods allowed this further flaming of my lifestyle, but I actually enjoy explaining it..." and then ask the mods for help. No one has been hostile or insulting to you. And you enjoy explaining your lifestyle. Everyone's cool, and who knows how many lurkers are looking for your self-help book on Amazon as we speak?

So that's that.

More generally, looking for a suitable mate on Samui (or elsewhere) seems intertwined with some financial angle and in a way that makes it seem that this situation is endemic only to Thailand. In the US, for example, it is and has been common for parents to vet potential suitors to their daughters, and one important factor (THE most important, one could argue) is: Can he take care of you/support you? How many movies have as the backdrop of the plot the poor boy who falls in love with the rich girl (or vice versa) and the parents forbid the relationship? The forbidden love story (happy ending, pass the tissues...).

I think there's wrong-footed thinking generally (even by me sometimes) about women who come to work on Samui. I don't think very many of them would be here doing what they are doing (whatever it is) unless personal circumstances demanded it. Granted, sometimes the reasons are based on the girl shooting herself in the foot (I know two ladies who purchased trucks on installment payments that they can't make due to a marriage breakup. They are halfway through the payments and both want to keep the vehicle. They probably shouldn't have bought the things in the first place, but that's history now. So they do whatever they can think of to make the payments).

Stupid financial planning is certainly not something only the Thais are guilty of.

Personally, I don't see anything evil in this.

I think anywhere in the world there is some expectation that finances will be shared. I seem to remember that most married couples (including gay couples living together for years) I know in the US have joint bank accounts (along with personal ones). Maybe I am old fashioned, but I didn't think marriage (even the "unofficial" kind) entailed, "She has her money and I have mine, 'and never the twain shall meet.'" I thought marriage was a "one for all and all for one" sort of endeavor.

So I think that keying on the, "I might have to help her out financially" aspect as a make or break condition is getting off to a bad start. No one expects to be shaken down, but shouldering more of the financial responsibility according to your ability seems not unreasonable to me.

Rooo:

What does immigration have to do with live music permits? Thai's play live music.

I think that Thais are allowed to work gigs in their own country without work permits, whereas foreigners without work permits are not allowed to play live if they are being compensated, ie working (and one would expect that they are not playing for free).

No. One bite but nothing. I put up notices at Big C and Tesco without a single call. I guess there are plenty of dogs just walking around the island right on people's doorstep instead of taking this one.

To be honest, this one seems smarter than the three of mine put together, and if I had the room and patience, well, I've always wanted to have one of these "tiger striped" dogs -- they are cool and a little uncommon (to my eyes).

You know the funny thing is, my dog and the old alpha male who was here before I arrived, had two pups. One I kept and the other I gave to a Thai friend up the hill. I had to separate them because at age 2 months they started to get some domination thing going on and were tearing each other up.

About 3 weeks ago the one I gave to my friend disappeared. There is only one small lane so she didn't get hit by a car and there isn't much traffic here. I guessed she wandered off to the nearby construction and found a boyfriend, but have not seen hide nor hair of her over there either.

So the dog that had a nice home is gone and the one without can't be placed (and giving the Tiger dog to the Thai friend isn't possible as the need is to get the Tiger dog out of the area and the other -- three at least -- dog packs).

parallaxtech:

The reason I compiled this list is that I am constantly asked how I found such a lovely young wife (24 yrs less) who never asks for money.

My lovely Thai wife (from Ubon) is 31

Did I miss something?

What does such a lovely Thai woman with such talents see in a retired foreigner almost twice her age who doesn't help her financially?

Post a pic of the both of you, if you will please.

I think that whatever the circumstances were with you and this woman, they were exceptional and no one should put much stock in a repeat performance. Nothing personal; you sound like a swell guy, but taking your advice reminds me of those people who once won the lottery and are now printing tracts and giving out advice on how you too can win big. Your situation was a fluke and would be in England or the US.

My wife works 50+ hours a week and I don't work.

I can think of about a half dozen things to post here and none of them would come off sounding right....

OK, here is something that I want to throw out: I didn't coin the phrase "open-ended prostitution," but it begs the question of the veracity of, "Once a bargirl, always a bargirl."

It can go like this: "I met my wife in a bar, sure, but she wasn't really like the other girls. We hit it off and starting living together. Sure I help her and the family with some money, but they have so little and I have enough for the both of us. Anyway, to make a long story short, after a couple of years it unraveled. I'm back here in Chicago and she's back in Pattaya. One of my friends saw her in Lucifer's on Walking Street, so that's how that story ends."

What this actually means is that even though you are happy, for a time, and the relationship lasts three years, four years or whatever, once it's over, the girl reverts to "bargirl/looking for sugar daddy mode."

Can a girl who has worked as an escort EVER be considered a "good girl" worth investing the greater part of your deepest emotions in?

erm..... no they have not

• as of yet anyway

The bars in Lamai aren't open, if that counts, and the free lady Thai boxing has been canceled.

Alleging that men are either posing as immigration officials and shaking down establishments, or are actual immigration officials and are shaking down establishments sounds like dancing on the razor's edge. Better be sure before you accuse the immigration cops of graft, unless you want things to get even more "officious" at immigration than they can already sometimes be when the guys over there find out about this.

BIC:

First the food - The last few times we have flown the food they have provided has been disgusting.

Don't eat it.

(Actually, coming back to Samui a week or so ago they served these tortilla rolls with chicken (from a bird) and lettuce and tomato inside. They were not only really good, they made me think, "I have to make some of these when I get home. Where can I get flour tortillas?")

"...the last trip we travelled with our 2 month baby to BKK and when booking we tried to request the front seats due to the baby as there are no seats in front of these to recline should my wife need to feed the baby..."

Samui to Bangkok is generally around an hour or less flight time. The infant couldn't make do for an hour? And if not, what a Princess and the Pea sort of demand – "Must have RECLINING seat to feed baby!"

Good grief, Charlie Brown!

"They also had the cheek to charge 850baht for a baby who had no seat (sat on mothers knee) and ate no food."

Well, you got me there. It's not like a two-month-old infant is actually a person that the airlines should charge for using its transportation services. God, it's like they charged 850 baht for your golf clubs to be flown on the plane. Outrageous!

(From Bangkok Airways Web site: Infant ticket price is 10% of the applicable Published adult fare. 850 isn't 10 percent of the adult fare. Where did that calculation come from?)

"We were so angry when we saw that the front seats had no children on them whatsoever - just normal people and another child behind us on row 4 was screamed the whole trip as he had no space to move."

"Normal people," I love that. Score one for people who bring babies on holiday as "abnormal."

And a child was ruining your flight? Shocking! What are these people who bring small kids on airplanes thinking!

"...then we and our baby were put on the trolley bus shuttle with all other passengers ...yet, next to it was a small 8 seater cart and to our amazement they let on a girl with a bandaged ankle and drove off leaving our 3 months old baby in the heat of 35 degrees sitting on this shuttle bus for nearly 15 minutes on the ..."

You were put in with "all other passengers"? Like you were normal? How dare them not give you the VIP private eight-seater! And your baby aged a full month during the ordeal!

OK, I'm not an expert, but does sitting in an open-air shuttle for 15 minutes in Thailand with a baby endanger its health?

"...there was no priority for babies/children first and no Bangkok Airways staff helping us."

"Attention all passengers on flight PG 601 bound for Bangkok, the Golden Empress God-child, future inventor of the cure for cancer and AIDS, is flying with us today. Please allow this global treasure, and his fussbudget parents, to leave the plane first upon landing."

I have never understood the idea that babies or little kids get a whopping discount on air travel. You never see a parent arguing this: "My baby is a human being just like every other passenger! You don't charge by how fat a person is or how old, or smart or race or creed! Just because my son is young you treat him like excess baggage? I demand to pay the full price -- for the dignity of my child!"

I think of air travel as the "transporter" on Star Trek, only really slow. If transporters did exist, why would the owners of the device discount for small babies? Isn't the end result of air travel and transportation providing a service to enable people and things to go from one place to another?

parallaxtech:

I feel it is better to find a Thai woman who speaks only Thai, which will force the farang to learn it.

Or not. This is like the old, "Language exchange" angle. You teach me (insert local language) and I will teach you English (all for FREE!). Invariably, you end up dealing mostly in English.

I have known people who have acquired skills in the local language due to being with a local woman, but that's been the exception, rather than the rule.

parallaxtech:

The answer I expect to hear is that they learned English in university, at a bank or hotel, or lived in a western country.

The answer I expect to hear has be be filtered through my Radio Shack Lie Detector Implant (yes, they have those now).

There is a 24-year-old girl at the massage parlor near where I sometimes buy dog food who speaks English without any "tells," meaning she conjugates verbs and adds all the right articles in her speech, and so on. She said she picked it up working at a hotel in Pattaya (mentally raise one eyebrow) but not from going out with men (quick mental roll of the eyes). She is absolutely stunning looking, which adds to my belief that there is far more to her "picking up" English (and picking up whomever) than meets the eye.

Moral: Just because a woman tells you some information about herself doesn't make it the truth.

Let me add this to the mix: Possible occupations/work positions are limited in Samui compared to the capital city and most of those are in the hospitality/escort business. This colors one's normal "dating" attitude with at least one broad brush: You can get what you want, and you can get it instantly.

I think if you wanted to find someone who liked you for you, you'd have to spend a great deal of time laying the foundation (no pun intended). Ask her out to public places and have her bring her friends along (chaperon) too. Displays of affection in public are a no-no. Unless she is playing the long sting (I've seen this too), she and you will both have a better understanding of who the other person is and how to proceed.

Of course, everyone knows this, but for some reason, many men come to Samui and forget all this.

Parallaxtech, how long did you live in the 30 countries? Where is your opposite number from?

------------------

Homer Simpson:

"English? Who needs that? I'm never going to England!"

A lot of people in this thread who don't seem to grasp the concept of a family.

Ok I'll bite. What is the concept of a family? Is it that you are never separated for a recreational activity?

Someone alluded to spouses taking separate vacations; what's that all about? That sounds very un-family.

Maybe I should print up some T-shirts with this on the front: Leave the kid at home!

But to be fair, I should also make one saying: Always take your kids with your everywhere! We're family!

Boo:

"Mark you missed the part of my post about liking my child & wanting to spend time with him. When you have a child you accept & enjoy the being part of a family that is spending time together..."

I got all that. But seriously, I'm talking about a week, let's say, away from your child. Taking a vacation without the little guy isn't a sign you are breaking up the family or don't care about your kid or some such extreme view. I can't imagine what your views are on sending a kid to summer camp.

I almost resent the, "You would be a bad parent because you would leave your toddler with the grandparents for a week while you and the missus went to Thailand." I don't see anything wrong with this at all. Maybe the protective instinct is running on high with you, but I don't think being separated from your child for a while is bad parenting.

By the way, I think you, Boo, left out the answer to the question of whether you ever do anything without the kid, such as going to a movie, or dinner or dancing or something that you might want to do without the child. Or have you just stopped eating out, going to the movies and other activities that might not be suitable for small kids (at all times)? If you do, then you must see my point that going to a movie and then dinner without the kid is akin to taking a week holiday without the kid.

I also think that any enrichment value of going overseas with a one-year-old baby, for example, is wishful thinking. There is nothing really wrong with bringing a baby on a vacation, if that's your cup of tea, but don't think that is makes any difference to the infant. No one seriously says that they take the toddler on holiday to expand the little guy's horizons. EVERYTHING is an adventure for a baby, be it refrigerator magnets or water coming out of a garden hose. Seems to me a waste of resources to bring a member of the family along on a vacation when he gets virtually nothing out of it. Would you bring along gramps who has very serious Alzheimer's? You could, of course -- he is family -- but the net result would be your retained memories and impressions of the trip with gramps; grandpa would come away with nothing, and wouldn't even remember he was wherever he was.

Same with a kid.

Boo:

"...no child in my family has been looked after by a stranger."

Why not? I mean, having the neighbor's daughter (or some such) look after the kid(s) while you go out for the night for activities that you want to do alone is pretty common. And really that's not even the point; the point is, you leave the kids with someone while you go do something "adult" together with your spouse, so why not extrapolate this to a major vacation (or a minor one)?

Wouldn't leaving the kids with someone you trust to take care of them be good for you and good for them too? We're not talking about leaving them in a Silence of the Lambs hole in the basement -- talk about "learning" and new experiences, wouldn't being with some people other than mom and dad be just that?

Let me reiterate: Before you had children, you and your opposite number enjoyed vacation time together. Now that you have a little one, the dynamics have changed. But just once is a while, wouldn't it be nice to have a holiday that could mirror the kind that you used to have when it was just the two of you?

I lived and studied in Ho Chi Minh City for a year in 1996-7 and any contact with any girl had to be organized, approved (by the parents) and monitored. And any acts of affection in public were absolutely out of the question, like holding hands. However, I never felt that foreigners were frowned upon as potential mates, but then I only saw what I could.

In Taiwan, women prefer foreigners because they think that we are "nicer" and more interesting. In Taiwan, there is nothing even remotely like Thailand in terms of loving you in proportion to the amount of available cash you have for them. There aren't any "poor" Taiwanese, in "Issan" terms.

Sezze:

"Most Thais do not like farangs and they do consider us ugly"

Is that right? If so, that's interesting.

Koheesti was talking about himself in that earlier post, not you Boo. I think you misread that.

Lioness:

Some close friends of mine asked me to look after their 2 children while they went to the UK for 6 weeks. Boy 4 years old and girl 2, the 2 year old was fine, but the little boy missed his parents and routine so much, after a couple of weeks he wouldn't eat, he cried and cried but wouldn't settle at night, the whole thing was a nightmare for me and the lad and I reckon I had aged 10 years by the time they got back. I would never do that to a child of mine.

You wouldn't have to, in all likelihood. Clearly, something was wrong with the child. And if not, then learning about separation from the parents was a good lesson (probably lost on the dotting parents). Sounds to me like the kid has some security problems.

And I never said anything about "dumping" kids with someone. Those of you talking about how you have never been out of sight of the little ones for all their seven years or something sound like you're boasting of how long you can wear the hairshirt. You make it sound like leaving the kids with grandma or auntie is some sort of child abuse.

As I believe I said very early on, if you think leaving your kids with someone else for a week or so is nearing on to criminal behavior, look at where you are!How common is it for girls to have babies only to leave then with their relatives to raise in another province for months or years with only occasional, casual visits? You must loathe these people.

How about this: Do you married folks with kids take your infants or small children with you every time you go out to eat? Every movie you go see (that will open a can of worms...)? Don't tell me you hire a babysitter! And it's some neighbor teenage kid you hardly know? Holy crap!

Why shouldn't you have a vacation or two without the rug rat?

"A 'salary' that is demanded like a contract of employment (which is all that it is i suppose)" is calling a rose a rose.

I lived with a Japanese woman in Taiwan for eight years and never gave her one NT dollar. For the first couple of years I paid for the rent and utilities, the rest we split. After a while, we started splitting the cost of the rent too. Oh, and I bought her a piano since she couldn't live without one (musicians out there will understand completely). I paid for the meals out and drinks; I went shopping too. I can't imagine in a million years her ever asking me for money, much less money given at regular intervals.

The thing is that I had work and she had work -- and they were unconnected. Here, quite often, you have work and your Thai woman/girl does too, except that her work is YOU; keeping you happy so you will keep her around = money coming in = job well done. Sort of a conflict of interest when love is supposed to be involved.

By the way, I expect that the woman..er women in Samui who are genuinely approachable by foreigners are as jaded as some of us are about them. They see so many men coming here for disposable love holidays that they are understandably wary of some guy coming up with a line or two of sweet talk. I would be if I were them, 100 percent.

Kan Win:

Met my Thai Wife in 1985 and married under Thai Law, so this year will be our 24th year together, I spoke no Thai and my wife did not speak any English, but we got on very well and here we are today, me nick-noi Thai and the Missuse not too bad in Tinglish.

Great for you, and I mean that. You did get lucky.

But may I ask what "got on very well" meant? This isn't like dating a deaf mute who could write messages down that you both could understand; other than looking up words in a dictionary, making faces or playing charades, there is no way to express yourself clearly, if at all, in Thai. I suppose if just being around someone is enough, then fine for you, but without communication beyond a cursory level, I can't see the synergy in a relationship -- and isn't that what we seek? I don't know how one finds a "soul mate" without the mutually fulfilling exchange of ideas, thoughts and emotions. I mean, "Me go shop," "Happy mai kap?" and "same, same," and the like doesn't make for much of a romance novel, in my opinion. For me, that would be like being in a land with thousands of locked doors, behind each one an enlightening experience (both good and bad), but I only had a handful of keys.

But maybe some are okay with just having the woman as a satellite (to mix my metaphors).

One tiny personal example: A woman was upset with me because she thought (a friend said) that I was upset with her. I wasn't angry, I was disappointed because of something she had done, and although my view of her had changed a bit, it really didn't mean so much to me. This woman came to see me, alone, and apparently wanted to iron things out. With no common language, she sat there, I sat there, we looked at each other and after about 10 minutes of this I told her just to go home (which she didn't understand, and when I finally got this across to her, she interpreted this as being thrown out, I was told later). I thought at the time, sarcastically, "That went well..."

Language is the toolbox of a relationship. A relationship should be building beautiful works together, not repeatedly trying to figure out how to use the screwdriver.

I also find it interesting that you are in Thailand, unless I am wrong, and your wife has had the burden of learning a non-indigenous language and you have failed to learn the language of the land in which you live. That's very colonial of you, it seems to me. But if not being able to communicate with a woman was no hindrance to marrying her, then I suppose not being able to communicate with the local population could be similarly unimportant.

Carmine: I think nearly all women expect to be financially supported in some way, regardless of what station in life they may be in. I loathe the paying for companionship angle (in its many monikers: "help," "take care," etc.), but I am not sure what level of self support you are expecting the woman to accept. Husbands give their wives money in most countries, and here, where Westerners generally have enormous bank accounts by local standards, not "sharing" is seen as churlish in the extreme. But your observation is correct -- most girlfriend/boyfriend and husband/wife relationships will crash here if not held up by the puppet strings of cold, hard cash.

You make it sound, Boo, as if the only valid replies are from those with little kids. That's like saying only those who have actually been to the moon have the only valid information on it.

IMO unless you have children of your own & have expereinced what it is ike to take them to samui or anywhere else for that matter then it is pure guess work, speculation & what you perceive to be the situation.

I've never been to Rio, but I think I can speak intelligently on its crime, for example. I have never been executed for a capital crime, but I believe that I can comment on it using, yes, "guesswork, speculation and what I perceive to be the situation," and still have valid ideas.

But I agree that seeing a glimpse of something isn't going to give you all the information about the situation, just as seeing certain men of certain nationalities sitting with their fellow countrymen drinking beer all day, every day, isn't going to give you all the information about them.

I suppose one could stop every family with a little one and ask some neutral questions about their experiences with kids, along with whether or not they feel that bringing them has in any way negatively impacted others. But I will leave that for someone else.

Thinking to be smart and knowing nothing at all seems to be the trade Mark of some here.

Educate us, please, oracle-man!

Agreed, education is relative, but the ability to communicate is fundamental, in my book.

O.K.: You are the blablabla-man here, realise that and check out your dog at the beach.

Oh, that's illuminating. You must have been the debate champion in your prime. Anything to actually add on-topic regarding "Women in Samui" that indicates my know-nothingness? I'm all ears.

Thinking to be smart and knowing nothing at all seems to be the trade Mark of some here.

Educate us, please, oracle-man!

Agreed, education is relative, but the ability to communicate is fundamental, in my book.

But it's up to the individuals

wow finally

I think if you back up and read my previous posts, I said this before, in other words.

Speed dating is a brilliant idea. The mind reels at the possibilities if you spice it up for the local, er, vampirish females here....

Your post, Samuian, reminded me of something: Men with "girlfriends" who speak very little English.

This has always baffled me. I mean a shag is a shag, sure, but after the fireworks are gone, what the hel_l do you do? I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone in their right mind would want to live with a woman who you cannot communicate with beyond inane sentence fragments. When I see these older men with their opposite numbers babbling like a grammatically challenged three-year-old I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

This seem the nadir of loneliness.

ady

... travelled with my wife and 5 month old baby ...Maybe he won't recount in detail what a nice time he had in Thailand once he starts to talk...

"Maybe"? Maybe not anything at all, unless you imprint the past experience in him when he is older, as I suspect is the case with many.

"See the picture, honey? See the beach? There you are. You had such a good time, remember? We had fun at the beach, didn't we sweetie pie?" Say it enough and the child will "remember" the beach in Thailand. . .

MSingh:

You strike me as being very selfish Mark where Children are concerened so i hope you never have any, for the Kids sake..

Interesting you capitalize "children" and "kids" as if were were talking about God or Him.

Selfish means taking a little adult time for R&R? Selfish means by doing so, I am not at risk of disrupting the holiday of someone else (if even for a short time)? There is nothing wrong with kids, as long as they are properly prepared. I prefer a bit of Worcestershire sauce myself; brings out the tenderness.

Oh, and this idea that childless passengers on a plane should make plans to protect themselves from annoying infants is complete crap. That's exactly the same argument as saying that non-smokers should plan to protect themselves from smokers when they go to a restaurant. "Well, bring a mask, dillweed! Try sitting at a different table, numskull!"

And, I might add that for my part, in 30-some years of flying, I have never had any real problems with infants or adults. I have had experiences where babies were annoying, but that didn't last long -- why do you think they make the suction in the airplane toilets so powerful?

Also, apropos of adults getting sick on vacation being the same as that of a toddler; that doesn't wash. If an adult is sick he can take care of himself at the resort, hang out in the room or on a deck chair while the others in his group, or his partner, go off seeing the sights. I can't see mom and dad having a baby who is under the weather say, "Well, hel_l. We're already here, no sense letting this cramp our style. Leave the kid in the room, tell the front desk to look in on him and lets go see that wonderful butterfly garden!"

And I don't buy into this child development angle. I am sure my parents took me places that were interesting and not just in the sandbox in the back yard (which could have been a Thai beach for all I knew), but I can count on the fingers of one hand the memories of events from age five and younger (and they aren't very detailed or interesting). "My child knew he was at the beach and didn't have to wear the same clothing..." Woo...call Psychology Today magazine! He's probably now going to grow up to be a noted seaman or artist or fire-stick twirler...

I'm sure that playing Bach to the unborn baby via a speaker pressed to the mother's stomach really makes kids much more talented in the future, just as seeing older men sauntering around with young Thai babes (not babies mind you) on their arms will make kids appreciate more of the richness of human interactions when they get older...

As PatinBKk said: "What is the difference...holiday is a holiday, whether it be Blackpool or Bermuda..."

My point is, again, that everyone has the right to do what they want regarding bringing children on holiday, but for that one, big, expensive holiday across the globe, I can't seen taking the little bundle of joy along. But it's up to the individuals: bring along your pet monkey or a deskful of work along on holiday if that makes the trip more enjoyable for you.

Rooo:

Good on them if they want to take their kids on holidays,nothing wrong with that, at least hopefully they will grow up having a lot better values.Who are we to judge?

What is a three-year-old or younger going to get out of a vacation to Samui that will enable them to "grow up having a lot better values"?

Please explain.

As for the question of why didn't I ask this couple if they couldn't find someone to take care of the kids while then gallivanted across the globe...I'm not Gregory House.

If they can hold a pool cue and their liquor, they are most welcome!

jdinasia:

What are you bringing to the table that would interest them (local women)?

That's a curious thing to say. But it does resonate.

If "dating" needs some sort of CV, I am almost certainly over-qualified to find a suitable mate here on Samui (Lamai, in fact). I am a university graduate, have an above-average IQ, have held important positions in the oil business and as a journalist, traveled extensively in SE Asia and (maybe the hidden nut in jdinasia's query) have more money than an Issan farmer will make in his lifetime.

The question that I sometimes have is, "What can a girl here bring to the table that would interest me?"

Sex here is like the free bowl of jelly beans at the cashier booth in a restaurant -- pick one you want, pop it into your mouth, pay, go home and watch TV.

I think a woman should be making an effort to attract me, not the other way around, but that isn't the way things are here. Using the allure of sex, women/girls in Samui falsely ransom themselves to men who undervalue their self-worth while over-valuing ersatz intimacy. Pride goes out the window here with so many men who in their own environments would act very differently.

As for education or the lack thereof, I had a friend from the US who repeatedly said that the trouble with the way the woman/girls are in Samui is that they "are all uneducated." I argued that common decency traits like punctuality, honesty and thoughtfulness toward others were traits that are acquired from upbringing and example, not just from schooling. But the longer I am here, the more I am modifying my thoughts. I think, and always have, that eduction "teaches" more than just what is in the textbooks. But until now, I have never lived in a society where nearly all of the people are undereducated and worldly unwise. It is interesting from an sociological aspect to see how people interact in this light.

I might also say this, (and thanks for resurrecting this thread, it's a fascinating subject), I am getting a little tired of meeting women who wish to be "recycled." I mean it's not their fault, but just about everyone you meet out here has already cycled through a relationship that resulted in a child who isn't living here, who needs support (beyond what normal Thais would expect) and are looking for that certain Western guy to "take care" of them. An alien landing here would think that it is normal for girls between the ages of 20 and 30 to have at least one child (generally out of wedlock) that they don't tend for themselves and don't live with, but send money back to the relative who is taking care of the child by finding some man of a different race to cover the costs in exchange for companionship.

So back to the question: What is the dating scene like here? Can you find a suitable match? Answer: While it is not impossible, it is highly unlikely. Although I do love the idea of trolling the hospitals for nurses.

"Back again? How many paper cuts can one person get?"

"I'm clumsy that way...."

And by the way, I re-read this thread and the people who previously offered that the OP was arrogant were off base, in my opinion.

I saw something the other day that added to this thread.

I met a mother and father pushing a stroller/pram across the sand-flats at low tide. I was walking the dogs and wandered over to chat. Apropos this topic, they said that their kid (I don't know how old the child was, maybe two years old) was a bit sick and they were clearly affected by this. It wasn't the kind of "sick" that would send them to the doctor, but the kind that makes children uncomfortable and, thus, alternately fidgety and temperamental and intermittently sleeping restlessly.

They hadn't been to any of the sites of the island, like the waterfall, for example, and said that with the child unwell, they were not planning on going. The vacation had become centered around the ill-feeling child. I felt bad for them as they were a swell young couple who clearly had had their holiday hijacked.