Brucenkhamen

would he not have had compassion for animals?

I think he did. Its just that he was pragmatic and not really in the Thou shalt not business.

If he were to tell his followers what they could and could not eat what would have been the affect of that? The farmers would have to open their gates and set their livestock free, some would lack the skills to live in the wild, some fall prey to predators, most would probably be rounded up by non-Buddhist farmers, so nothing would have been gained.

Instead we have killing discouraged in the 5 precepts, basing ones livelihood on selling meat discouraged in the eightfold path, killing specifically for feeding monks discouraged. People then have the opportunity to look how they live their lives and where they can make adjustments.

I agree with Vince that compassion is about how we treat animals when they are alive not about what we eat, looking at the affect we have on the world around us rather than upsetting the foodchain and the ecological balance.

Overthinking? What's that? Do you mean one should only think in moderation, according to the general Buddhist principle of 'everything in moderation'?

By that I mean making something pretty simple into something complicated through unnecessary analysis.

In relation to the supreme Buddhist goal of a complete cessation of all thought,

Is of course a silly statement.

I didn't know that. I imagine there are some Buddhists who would disagree.

Yes, A lot of Buddhist laypeople only offer vegetarian food to monks, it's not so common among thais but I find much more so among westerners and sri lankans for example.

I personally don't have a problem with Arahants proclaiming their state.

If a person is not telling the truth then this would be driven by the kilesas.

If a person is telling the truth then the motive must be beyond kilesas.

If the person is in fact an arahant then you probably already have a lot of respect for that person and inspiration from that person, so does the confirmation really add anything that wasn't already there?

However if not then what if the person didn't show the virtue or ethical conduct consistent with being an arahant. What if he/she didn't teach consistent with the Dhamma. What if he/she encouraged donations far more than needed and far more then some people could afford. What if he had too much control over his followers lives. What if he gave an unnatural amount of attention to his followers daughters.

What about the ones who join a forum out of nowhere, come out as a fully enlightened being on their first post, proceed to post spiritual sounding nonsense or the teachings of a different path, and get very hot under the collar when challenged.

I'm glad we have a culture where claiming spiritual attainments is considered unnecessary.

Quote: Ven Maha Boowa.

I sacrificed everything to attain the Supreme Dhamma that I teach you now. Those sacrifices were not made to attain something evil. I nearly gave up my life in search of Dhamma, crossing the threshold of death before I could proclaim to the world the Dhamma that I had realized.

Do you think that I spoke in anger? Where does anger come from? Anger comes from the kilesas. For someone who is completely free of kilesas, you cannot make him angry, try as you will. There is simply no anger left in his heart. If even a small amount of anger remained, he could not be called an Arahant free of kilesas.

For anger, greed, and delusion are all kilesas. Do you understand?

The evidence is mounting.

You'll notice he halfway through that paragraph he changes from the first person to the second person. The implication is there, but it's still indirect. Who's to know he didn't pause and start on a new tack at that point, if for example the translator had chosen to start "For someone " on a new paragraph it would read quite differently.

If we go back to the first quote you gave it reads to me like he is giving a heartfelt account of deeply personal experiences in order to inspire others, it doesn't read to me like laying a claim or blowing his own trumpet, though you could say he let too much cat out of the bag.

I visited his monastery many times when he was alive, I ordained in one of his branch monasteries for a period and stayed in another. If I were to ask any Thai there "Do you think he is an arahant?" I'm pretty sure I can predict the answer, he was that well regarded. Someone like that has nothing to prove, has no need to lay claims or blow their own trumpet.

I guess for me it's not just the words but the intention behind them.

You are being evasive my dear Bruce.

No, actually you are attempting to change the topic.

But at least now it is clear. You want a clear statement from him saying "I am arahant". So if he had said that you would be convinced? Or is there more. Come on old chum, put your neck on the block for once.

Convinced of what? Why are you talking about whether I am convinced that someone is or isn't an arahant? I only said "I can't say I've heard of anyone making such a claim".

Why do you need me to be in the business of judging other people?

But in case you are in fact still on topic then yes if I hear a clear statement along the lines of "I am an arahant" then my statement would change to "I can say I've only really heard of one person making such a claim".

Furthermore what do you mean by mirrors in relation to Maha Boowa's accounts.

Lighten up.

"No, but I think it needs to be unambiguous, a smoking gun, not something open to interpretation or mistranslation."

It's pretty clear english,

Of course there are many possibilities. It's like if I asked you "What would convince you that there are no Russian troops in Ukraine?".

In this Dharma presentation doesn't the Ven: Maha Boowa clearly indicate his Arahantship?

He clearly had a profound experience that made a major shift in his path and in his appreciation of dhamma. He doesn't claim to be an arahant. I can see how you might want to interpret that way, but how do you know it wasn't one of a number steps, 4th jhana? or stream entry? or becoming an anagami?

I'm looking for "I am now this", "I am no longer that", type of language.

So I repeat. What specifically would convince you that someone is arahant? Would they have to say it in the terms you quoted from SN 56 et al. And how would you know they spoke the truth.

Your question is irrelevant, the question we are discussing is my statement "I can't say I've ever heard anyone make such a claim"

What would convince you I can't say that?

How would you know if I spoke lies?

If it's not open to interpretation, how would you recognize it?

As per the normal process of recognising meaning from English text, unfortunately I read very little Thai if at all.

What would be acceptable to you. He talks extensively about his realization. Have you read his books. Quite a bit of smoke I would say.

A few,

Quite a bit of smoke I would say.

... and a few mirrors

Buddha didn't make such claims either. So where does that leave you?

...dredging up quotes outlining quite basic Buddhist concepts again.

But as soon as this my three-round, twelve-permutation knowledge & vision concerning these four noble truths as they have come to be was truly pure, then I did claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its deities, Maras & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & brahmans, its royalty & commonfolk. Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'" SN 56.11

Avoiding both of these extremes, the middle way realized by the Tathagata producing vision, producing knowledge leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. SN 56.11

For I am an arahant in the world;

I, the unexcelled teacher.

I, alone, am rightly self-awakened.

Cooled am I, unbound. MN 26

"Then how is this, Sariputta? Of me, who am at present the Arahant, the Fully Enlightened One, do you have direct personal knowledge as to my virtue, my meditation, my wisdom, my abiding, and my emancipation?" DN 16

"There was a time, Ananda, when I dwelt at Uruvela, on the bank of the Nerañjara River, at the foot of the goatherds' banyan-tree, soon after my supreme Enlightenment. DN 16

Then the Blessed One said: "Do you have faith, Ananda, in the Enlightenment of the Tathagata?" And the Venerable Ananda replied: "Yes, O Lord, I do." DN 16

It is not necessary for Maha Boowa to proclaim explicitly "I am an Arahant".

No, but I think it needs to be unambiguous, a smoking gun, not something open to interpretation or mistranslation.

Ven Maha Boowa made his claim in his Dharma talks which were published in his book.

He clearly described his awakening including his countless previous lives.

Ven Maha Boowa has a lot of books, if you have time to dig out a quote that would be appreciated, remembering past lives is supposed to coincide with 4th jhana.

If you are referring to the excerpt trd posted some time ago then I didn't find that to be about what it was purported to be.

Ven Maha Boowa

So rumour would have it, I've yet to see convincing evidence.

Mai Chei are two.

I googled "Mai Chei arahant", the top results are in Romanian.

I agree with trd, there is no way that we can judge with certainty that this person or that person is an arahant or any other attainment. I think we can tell when meeting someone that they've "got something" but we can't really judge what exactly that is. I've certainly met people I believe have "got something" that is the fruit of dedicated practice.

However I don't think that was what Maailmanmatti was saying, his main point being that an arahant has no need to blow his own trumpet (and of course if he/she is a monastic the vinaya prohibits it), so blowing his own trumpet is a strong indicator someone is not the real deal.

I can't say I've ever heard anyone make such a claim. I've encountered flakey types on the internet claiming to be enlightened or a Buddha, but arahant is a term not generally known outside of Buddhism so to use it someone will know a bit about Buddhism hopefully how such claims would be received.

Very cool to know that a forest monk is practicing Dzogchen. Before I became interested in dharma I used to teach a lot of monks at Mahidol Univeristy, I had some very, sometimes shocking and bizarre situations that I later learned were strikingly similar to Vajrayana mahasiddha style attempts to help me drop my ego games. I am fully convinced that Vajrayana is practiced very secretly in Thailand or that Vajrayana style emerges spontaneously from Thervada practices sometimes, so why not Dzogchen?

I can't remember how I came across this interview between Sam Harris and Joseph Goldstein see the soundcloud on this page http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-path-and-the-goal the first half is just about how Joseph got into the practice, in the second half they compare vipassana and dzogchen and is quite interesting.

So, green tea, black tea, yaa baa, diet pills, cocaine and crack are all OK, since they're stimulants?

I really don't think that caffeine (whether in tea, coffee, or chocolate etc) is comparable to yaa baa, cocaine, and crack.

I don't see the relevancy of diet pills either.

According to this web site it was created by the local abbot, maybe he thought it a fun thing to do http://thailandguidetravel.blogspot.co.nz/2013/08/the-cremation-of-lord-buddhas-effigy.html

Coffee is allowable at any time (it's stimulant not an intoxicant), as are coffeemate and sugar.

Milk is not allowable in the afternoon depending on how strict the monastery they are from interprets the rules. If this is the worst they've been up to then they are doing pretty good.

Meditation is definately not about blanking the mind and listening to music.

You can sit in a chair if you want but it's best that the back is not supported so as to help keep you awake.

This looks like a good introduction to get you started http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/On_Meditation1.php

There seems to be a lot of agreement, at least on a verbal conceptual level between Dzogchen and her practices and philosophies.

If you haven't already you might want to check out this book http://forestsanghapublications.org/viewBook.php?id=28&ref=deb by Ajahn Amaro a senior Theravadin monk who has also been practicing Dzogchen.