Dogmatix

33 minutes ago, CharlesHolzhauer said:

The change in remittances did not require legislation. However, the latest 'bombshell' will need to be legislated and may take considerable time to implement.

They could bypass parliament with a Royal Decree but that is risky, as parliament could overturn it later with consequences for whoever approved it.Major changes like the inheritance tax have been acts of parliament, while minor things like tax exemption for LTR visas have been Royal Decrees. 
 

They said they are confident of getting the Top Up Tax bill for multi nationals enacted through Parliament in time to go into effect by 2025 which has just been approved by cabinet. But the BOI is arguing it needs more time. This one still needs to drafted and be approved by cabinet, then pass Council of State scrutiny before going through 3 readings inparliament and then go to the Senate. The readings are sonetimed made close together, if uncontroversial and Urgent with few  amendments called for but that is unusual and there is often competing legislation. So being in effect for 2025, though technically possible, would be a tall order needing all stops pulled out and no opposition in parliament. 2026 is more feasible, if the government lasts. Since this is pushed by the RD not a political party, it probably won’t go away unfortunately.

16 minutes ago, MeePeeMai said:

 

For example,

 

The 35% Thai tax which would be due on my long term capital gains (vs the 15% I already pay to the IRS) is unacceptable to me (overtaxed).

 

I did a ROTH conversion in 2024 in the amount of $79,000 which will be taxed by uncle Sam in the 22% tax bracket... that would mean that I would have to pay another 13% in Thai tax (if the tax treaty was applied or 35% if it was not properly applied).  

 

I have rental income (on my house) of $48,600 per year in the USA which would be taxed at 35% here (unacceptable).

 

I don't even pay anywhere close to 35% tax on my short term gains in the USA now but that income would be taxed at 35% here (or I would have to pay the difference if the tax treaty was applied).

 

Overtaxed here or not?  

 

 

 

 

I have rental income from the UK which I rarely remit the Thailand and pay tax in the UK. They have a system and a form for non-resident landlords to file. You do accounts deducting expenses including agents fees, repairs and renovations and pay tax on your profit. Some years I have had to do a big renovation and declared a loss. No problem with UK taxman who has never audited or even asked for receipts or documentation in decades.

How will this work under Thai global tax? When I do my Thai tax return, I will have file for tax in the UK for 1 Jan to 5 April of the Thai tax year I am filing for but not for 6 April to 31 Dec. So I clalm tax credit for 1Jan to 5 April and pay full Thai tax for the rest of the year. But I will also have paid advance UK tax based on an estimate which can later be adjusted, Do they ignore that? Next year do I then claim a tax credit for what I paid in Thailand? Does Thailand allow deduction for repairs and renovation? If so, what documentation would they ask for?

 Sounds like a horror no incoming our way without looking at how they will treat other overseas investments. But one thing we know is that they don’t allow deductions for losses. So those already paying tax on capital gains less capital losses will likely have more to pay in Thailand. 
 

None of this has been thought through in this pkan to just shake the foreign money tree until it dies. Not saying they have no right to tax bit it would be better if they spent a couple of years studying the implications and then came up with detailed plans which would probably mean a complete overhaul rather than just applying Thai tax rules to overseas income and not caring about the complexities or unintended consequences.

2 hours ago, freeworld said:

No the tax rates are for everyone. It depends on the level of income of the tax payer.

Not completely true, if you compare income from investment.  Capital gains tax on Thai stocks is zero, on dividends it's 10% flat rate and on property sales it is a transactional tax that is generally fairly low and doesn't get lumped in with your income. Tax on investment gains and income on all foreign assets is up to 35% and lumped into your overall income.

Legal weed cuts into the money made on meth by gangsters including police, politicians and military.

Good.  Fit enough to go to jail on his LM charge.  He is an obvious flight risk and should not be given bail.

In a recent poll asking Thais who they would like as PM, Srettha was trailing at 8%.  Pita was top with 46%.  Prayut 3rd with 17% and Thaksin's daughter just above Srettha. Anutin was I think just below him.  Thais didn't elect this clown and it is pretty clear that the vast majority don't want him or Thaksin's daughter as PM.  So there will be few tears, if the court decides to bin him. 

3 hours ago, Gknrd said:

It doesn't matter at This point. All you guys will pay. Until you can't!  

Everything leading up to this has been so successful, and profitable for the Thai Government it will keep snowballing now.

No more than a joke at this point. And you expats are a huge cash cow for the Thai government.  Every one know this will be the last scheme hatched..

Hahaha.  

Sad but true.  The initial statements about targeting Thai investors were nonsense.  They are going after everyone they can, even someone ordering a box of paper clips from China for 25 baht.  Whatever they can get from foreigners is easy pickings because the foreigners have no votes and they don't care, if they stay or go, as long as they pay now.

8 hours ago, lordgrinz said:

 

Well, until they state what is acceptable proof of savings, it would be better not to send anything. I don't believe in the, just ignore it until they come looking approach.

 I am also very concerned about proof on anything they might ask for from overseas.   The kind of documents that RD staff are used to in Thailand, such as certified bank statements, certified tax receipts proper contract notes are often simply not available from overseas.  The RD official in the Swiss embassy video make clear that they would requesting exactly that sort of stuff.  

The way it works when you file a tax return is different from in developed countries where it is a genuine honours system and you can file for a lifetime without ever being asked for a document or audited.  The Thai RD request documentation for every item you declare some weeks or months after you file, unless they have it already in the form of e-receipt for example.  Claiming tax credits for Thai dividends involves sending them an original hard copy of every single dividend certificate, even though you can give permission for the data to be fed directly to the RD from the TSD registry which is the registrar for 90% of Thai listed companies.  For income from employment you have to send an original copy of your 50 bis document, even though that is filed directly with the RD by your employer. 

You don't need a good imagination to see how this mentality could be applied to things like capital gains from overseas (certified original copies of buying and selling contract notes) or foreign tax credits (an original tax receipt certified and stamped by the tax authority).

7 hours ago, Presnock said:

Multimillionaires?  I think there are a lot fewer than you and the rest of the AN think.  I only have a US govt pension so the taxes that could be avoided via the LTR are a moot point anyway because of the DTA with the US.  If the Thais decided to wipe out all the treaties that have been

worked out between Thailand and those 60 or 61 other countries, they by international law have to advise those countries in advance that they

wish to do this.  Then if they followed through they would have a difficult time getting any treaty signed with a foreign country for anything unless of course they follow this route and join BRICS in the fall.  The LTR on last count hardly has enough expats to help the revenue dept meet their goals anyway.  Any mulitmillionaires on an LTR would just cease to be a tax resident here or elsewherever they wanted.  In the long run, any changes that are made to the tax laws against expats will IMHO cause a decrease in the funds collected by the Revenue Department as it will probably already show a drop from 2024.

I am with you but the problem seems to be that the people in power seem to have an extremely arrogant attitude to expats.  They only care about the super wealthy and even then they are preparing to blow up the LTR tax exemption because it only applies to remitted income which will be irrelevant under global taxation. For other expats, including those with Thai families,  they couldn't care less is they drive them out or not.  It is obvious that a lot of inflows to Thailand will be choked off, particularly due to the idiotic approach of introducing a remittance tax as a short term measure before going for the jugular with global tax.  A lot of damage will be done by the remittance tax because it strikes directly at capital inflows - duh.  And huge confusion and uncertainty is created by having two confliction foreign income tax systems introduced one after the other with no preparation in terms of regulations, training for staff or appropriate forms. 

It's all about generating more top line to please Tony and get promoted to positions with greater opportunities for corruption. To hell with the cost of generating the incremental revenue or the overall loss to the fixed capital formation caused by choking off capital inflows. You see this power group talking about "quick wins".  This is what they win.  Stuff that can be spun to make it look like a win but it's actually a loss.  So sad for Thai people to get stuck with this type of government that they didn't elect.    

4 hours ago, ChaiyaTH said:

Why they don't address the elephant in the room anyway. There is only like 20 families who get 80% of all the money in the first place, they clearly are not paying enough, so go get it from them and the issue would be resolved while leaving us alone.

Last year they said that the reinterpretation was aimed at Thais investing overseas, not expats.  That means small and medium sized Thai investors who use international accounts at Thai brokers to invest overseas and are low hanging fruit.  Of course they cannot get the super wealthy Thais because they keep their offshore wealth in tax efficient family office corporate structures in countries that don't tax things like capital gains from offshore.  That means that under Thai global taxation they will only have to pay tax on capital gains on stocks, if they want to pay out dividends to themselves.  Otherwise they can trade freely generating untaxable capital gains and let their wealth accumulate further.  Smaller Thai investors overseas will have to pay Thai tax on capital gains in the year the arise whether they remit or not. 

Recognising that they will not get much from wealthy Thais, I think this has now morphed into a plan to get tax from anywhere they can, including collecting another 7,000 baht from Joe Bloggs' already taxed pension in Nakhorn Nowhere.  Given their keenness to collect 7 baht VAT on 100 baht packages sent from China, it doesn't seem that there is any concern about collecting revenue costing more than the revenue raised.  They are only going to judge themselves on top line revenues, not net revenues after costs which is pathetic.

41 minutes ago, Presnock said:

 

 

Applied already in March 2024 - takes 5-7 years before approved or not - google Thailand applies OECD

 

Not sure of the relevance of your comment. Thailand is already in CRS. I believe they are contemplating applying to join OECD at this stage. I guess they are far from meeting the requirements and can’t see what benefits would accrue to an economy stuck in the middle income trap with no obvious route out - GDP growing well below the rate of developed countries and regional neighbors, a hopeless public education system despite massive budgets, years of incompetent economic management, massive corruption at all levels and a flawed democracy with a tendency to military coups that can ignore the result of general elections and appoint convicted felons to the cabinet and allow one to control it from behind the scenes while still on probation.

1 hour ago, geisha said:

What about foreigners that buy a condo but stay under the 180 days a year ? Will he still pay tax on the property bought , and how much ? Then , if that person wants to sell and take his money elsewhere, what then ? ( ps does not concern me I have nothing in Thailand and under 180 days stay.) Also , if this goes through then the whole  immigration process will be changing.

There are transactional taxes for buying and selling property, regardless of the buyer or seller’s tax residence. It depends on appraisal value and how long the seller has owned the property. Generally around 3.5-5% of the appraisal price payable at the time of transfer at the land office. An individual seller doesn’t need to include in his tax return but corporate sellers do. Non-tax residents have no tax to pay on remitting the funds in to pay for the condo under current or future rules but a tax resident might have to under the current rule. If you rent it out, a non-tax resident or tax resident both pay Thai tax on the rental income which has to be done twice a year for rental income because that is considered a business done in personal name.

Tax liability in this case or not, I guess the condo market is already taking a hit from the current rule, although developers are not complaining yet. Expats already tax resident but currently renting can’t be rushing to remit their savings to buy condos under the threat of a letter from the RD asking them to clarify the tax assessability of the remittance perhaps several years after the event. Retirees looking for a spot to retire may think twice about a place that was a tax haven for expats with no tax on offshore income since taxation started suddenly introducing a remittance tax and then announcing they will do global taxation 5 months after that. That is not to mention the introduction of LTR visas with tax exemption for remitted income with great fanfare. Then folk who have submitted all the detailed personal information to apply and paid the steep fees find that less than a year into their 10 year visas the government will blow up the tax exemption on remittances and tax all their offshore income whether it is remitted or not. That is not to mention the chaos of introducing the first rule precipitously without producing any clarification in the complex applications of 61 different DTAs and with no way to claim tax credits on tax return forms. They give the impression of being angry, xenophobic 5 year olds suddenly put in charge of the country’s tax system pulling this lever and that in quick succession to see if they can make foreign cash tumble out on to the ground like playing a one armed bandit and hoping for a quick jackpot.