Dogmatix

14 hours ago, Jack West Jr said:

The procedure to follow seems obvious . Arrest this scum and extradite him . 

I think they are so concerned about EU data privacy rules that the Irish police don't know their names either. So how can they extradite them?

On 2/22/2024 at 8:04 PM, Mike Lister said:

If the tax guide was exclusively for the benefit of totally reasonable people, I might agree with what what you have written. But what we have seen thus far is enormous but anecdotal interest in the Gift Tax as a means of skirting Thai tax, many have said outright that it is their easy and simple answer. If ultimately, Thai tax law confirms everyone's hopes that the law is available to use as seen by some, that will be a fabulous outcome, but we are not at that point, yet. The concern is that a majority will see that glass as half full rather than half empty and will end up in difficulty as a result.

 

We have several choices. We can leave the issue open, pending further clarification or we can steer people towards a safer scenario and advise caution.  I chose the latter, because, human nature suggests it will mean that people will be less likely to act using Gift Tax. 

 

With regard to laying down the law: the simple tax guide is explicit, it is a starting point for people to begin to manage their tax affairs and nothing in the guide will contradict anything said by the RD or the major tax consultancies. There is no obligation for anyone to adhere to what is written in the guide which makes it very clear that further information is  needed in several areas. We have already exceeded the boundaries of our initial remit in producing the simple tax guide. We said we would not be able to delve into specifics' of elements such as Capital Gains because it was beyond our knowledge levels and expertise plus the rules vary from country to country. Such things would be reliant on further information from the RD. Despite that, we have continued to push forward and in six weeks have produced a guide that has helped thousands and put an equal number of minds at ease.

 

I am perfectly happy for debates to be held on any aspect of tax, both in this thread and in the 250 page thread that has run for the past six months. I am less comfortable those debates take place in the Simple Tax Guide thread which I see as reserved for known answers, assistance for those with more simple needs and for the identification of unknowns. Any direction provided in that thread will be towards lower risk alternatives and avoid giving false hope. Any discussion in that  thread needs to be less complex so that those with limited understanding of tax can easily find the answers they are looking for, unlike in the 7,000 post thread.

 

 

Thais and foreigners will definitely be using the gift tax exemption to cover overseas remittances, particularly as it was apparently suggested by the RD in its #4 to its first Q&A on P. 161/2566, possibly as a way for taxpayers to mitigate the impacts of the announcement. So it will take some time to know, if there is an issue, since the RD will not be able to follow up on overseas gifts made to circumvent P. 161/2566 until after 2024 tax returns have been filed.  Since they have a backlog, it may take some time. If nothing is said, we might have to wait for a few years to be sure that receivers of overseas gifts from spouses have not been made to show that their spouses had paid tax on the gifts overseas (assuming the income was taxable in the jurisdiction it arose) and/or taxed and penalised.  If that is the case, it would be difficult to place the burden on the receiver, as they cannot automatically be expected to have access to their spouse's overseas tax records.  So the burden would more appropriately be placed on the giftor who may not be a Thai tax resident or even living in Thailand, as in the RD's case study กค 0702/530 on the topic of gifts made to a Thai resident by a foreigner resident overseas. 

As far as the Simple Tax Guide is concerned, I can see that it is probably useful to a number of AN members but I personally would hesitate to publish a tax guide rather than just post a regular exchange of views on tax, as in this thread or the big thread. A tax guide, unless it just quotes from the RC and the RD, contains opinions that AN has to be responsible for as the publisher and, if someone decided to claim they had been damaged by any part of it and filed a complaint, it could be problematic and disclaimers may not offer much protection. An area I have experience of is publishing opinions on Thai stocks which I know you have to very careful about to avoid the SEC coming around demanding to see licenses, WPs etc. Some publishers of such newsletters have gone to great pains to make it look, as if they were published overseas.  Just my thoughts.

Let's have a snap election and boot out PT in favour of MFP.  Then Yingluck will have to continue her extended shopping trip to Harrods.

I wonder what critical ailments Yingluck will suddenly be struck down by immediately on checking into the women's prison.

On 2/22/2024 at 7:03 AM, spidermike007 said:

Many nations have incredible craft work, such as Mexico, Indonesia (especially Bali) and India. World class crafts. World famous crafts. Thailand has a very limited craft industry, and the quality is not high, nor are Thai crafts recognized around the world, with the exception of some of it's silk. 

 

More nonsense from one of the most silly men in the country, and one who has no business pretending to be a leader. 

Souvenirs in tourist areas are mainly low quality tat imported from China or Burma.

9 hours ago, hotchilli said:

So Srettha what are you going to do about it?

 

Nothing.  Just continue grinning like a Cheshire cat, racking up airmiles at taxpayer expense and trying to sell fake project like the land bridge to generate consultancy fees for Thaksin cronies.

Re Gift Tax again. The RD's answer in its Q&A on the remittance tax appears to specify that qualified gifts would be exempted. Here is the imperfect google translate.  It mentions the gift tax exemption explicitly a propos of the remittance tax without adding that the gift must be taxed overseas and subject to a DTA or taxed in Thailand first. In some cases, it would not even be possible to pay tax on it first. Consider the case of capital gains in HK or Singapore that are not taxable where they arise? How would the gifter pay Thai tax on the income before gifting it, unless he is obliged to remit it to himself in Thailand first which is not the case.  The Gift Tax law places the receiver under no burden to show the gift has been taxed. If a spouse, they are only obliged to declare an amount over 20 million in a year and pay a flat rate of tax of 5%.

I agree that being conservative in the tax guide is OK but I don't agree with laying down the law and telling people categorically that gifts must be from taxed income without anything to support this view.  I think it would be useful to tell people that this, like many aspects of this remittance tax, is not yet clear.  

QUESTION #4

What are the types of assessed income that must be subject to income tax under Section 41?, the second paragraph of the Revenue Code?

ANSWER:

Money has not been assessed from foreign sources at If you stay, you are forced to pay income tax including assessable income according to Section 40 (1) to (8) of the Revenue Code.

However, if it is assessable income received that has received tax exemption according to law, taxpayers do not have to include it as assessable income to be taxed in Thailand, such as receiving an inheritance or receiving income received through the support of parents and trusted people, or from a spouse, as long as the money that is received does not exceed 20 millions of baht for the entire tax year.

They have no plan to make Thai manufacturers more competitive. They just want to protect Thai importers who mark up the prices with no value added. No helpful to Thai consumers.

The health minister is one of the Thaksin appointments that he is rumoured to be reviewing for replacement in a cabinet reshuffle. Given his slaughter of 2,000 alleged drug dealers he may feel Cholnan is being too soft on drugs.  Anyway Cholnan vowed to quit if PT formed a coalition with the uncle parties. So why is he still around?

At least the MRNA vaccines apparently worked to some extent.  What are long term effects of Sino Vax and Sino Pharm which did nothing except line the pockets of certain Thai politicians and Thai Chinese owned businesses?

To follow on re gift tax and IHT.  Although the RD apparently prepared some draft amendments to toughen up these taxes at the request of Srettha, they haven't been publicised and don't seem to be a priority for PT at the moment.  Srettha is finance minister as well as PM but has probably only been to the Finance Ministry once to light some joss sticks at the spirit house and order a costly renovation of the minister's office, given the previous incumbent was there for 8 years. As finance minister his only remit from PT/Thaksin is to get the digital wallet done and even this he has left largely to his deputy.  Given the powerful PT factions and coalition parties, he has a very limited remit on things he can actually do on domestic policy and the party factions may not be keen on gift tax and IHT (or remittance tax).  It looks like Srettha is short dated and is only left in place to fall on his sword, if there are legal problems with the digital wallet.  Either way he will probably be pushed out by Thaksin soon after the digital wallet.  I guess that by 2025 we will be looking at a new PM and finance minister who may or not get tough on all these taxes.  But I seriously doubt that Srettha will get done whatever he ordered the RD to draft on IHT and gift tax.

2 hours ago, Yumthai said:

Will be closed ... or not.

Again, do not underestimate Thai RD lawyers and officials vision. My view is gift tax rules have been elaborated on purpose, allowing wealthy locals to avoid tax burden and keep money from overseas flowing into Thailand. Foreigner residents are just a tiny community collaterally and positively impacted by this.

If ever they close this kind of tax loopholes, legal new ones will be implemented if they want to avoid an economical suicide.

  

The purpose of the gift tax imposed by the coup government was made quite clear when it was introduced in 2015.  It was intended to close a potential loophole when they introduced inheritance tax. When you think that IHT kicks in at 100 million charged to heirs, not to the estate, it makes sense.  Spouses are exempted from IHT but the 20 million exemption from gift tax also applies to parents and children who are not exempted from inheritance tax.  Thus, if you were to spend 7 years gifting 20 million a year to a child and died at the end of that, you could effectively give a tax free estate of 240 million including the 100 million IHT exemption.  (I use 7 years to make a parallel with the UK gifting limit, although there is requirement to survive 7 years in Thailand.

Srettha said he ordered the RD to review IHT and gift tax when he first took office to increase revenue and the RD announced that it had done so soon afterwards. But no more has been heard of that until now.  Bear in mind that the sleight of hand tactic employed by the RD to completely change the tax regime for foreign remittances by reinterpretation is not going to be available for amending IHT and gift tax thresholds and rates.  These will have to be amended by Act of Parliament.  I am sure change is coming to gift tax but I guess it will again be in tandem with IHT amendments, not related to this reinterpretation by the RD DG which may not survive anyway, since it is only an admin order to staff by a civil servant and neither a Royal Decree nor an Act of Parliament.  

17 hours ago, proton said:

Have they fitted him up to get rid of him?

Who knows but remember he was into some pretty murky stuff that led to his sacking from the police under the Prayut govt. Rumour had it that he upset someone very important and Pravit was only just able to save him from a lengthy prison term.  As head of Immigration in the Prayut govt he flew around the country involving himself in many matters, particularly big cash generating illegal businesses including gambling dens, that had absolutely nothing to do with Immigration.  Rumour also had it that his rapid promotion in the force was due to Pravit's influence and that he was a bagman for that gentleman. Another rumour had it that when he rolled up the corrupt police in the overweight trucks racket who were also involved in the killing of a senior cop by a kamnan he also upset the current police chief who was reportedly close to the murdered police officer.  These rumours may or may not be true but there may be many more stories and allegations out there about him too.  When he appeared in front of the TV cameras in his boxers it was an a kind of estate of houses that he owns and rents out.  I think he uses the classic wealthy wife cop out to explain otherwise unexplained personal wealth but anyway he lacks the image of an honest cop living in a modest wooden house and only in it for the police awards.  So anything could be true or not. 

14 hours ago, Muhendis said:

What on earth are they are talking about

Degenerative bone disease is simply a posh name for arthritis for which there is no "cure".

Correct.  They said he had arthritis in the spine before he came back. I also it and in the neck too.  I would guess that a large percentage of Thais of his age also have it but they just can't afford treatment. So they just grin and bear it.  What a total shamster!

24 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

With Thailand installing automatic gates for departure, lots of people won't have exit stamps in their passport.

 

So, how to prove your length of residence in Thailand if you don't have exit stamps when you go abroad for 6 months?

I would keep copies air tickets, evidence of arriving in the other country - entry stamp, hotel bill etc. The RD should theoretically be able to verify departure and entry dates from Immigration but that would involve the dreaded interaction between government departments.

On 2/20/2024 at 5:33 AM, CharlesHolzhauer said:

I appreciate your contribution and personal views regarding the gift tax issue in both this and previous posts;

It reads and sounds reassuring, providing a sense of confidence and comfort. Apart from the 'Gift Tax Case' you provided in another thread, would you be able to lay your hands on the Royal Decree amending the Revenue Code, which includes gifts originating from abroad?

Gifting relatively large sums of money on an annual or bi-annual basis without a specific worded document from RD is wide open for different interpretations; It could come back to haunt either the Gifter or Giftee, depending on the official in charge assessing the gift.

Sorry. It was an Act of Parliament amending the RC.  Here is google translate.

Gift Tax Case RD KK0702-530 11 Feb 2023.docx

Revenue Code Amendment Act (No. 40) B.E. 2015

1. In the case of giving movable property

  (1) Person liable to pay taxes:

(a) a natural person who receives money from support or from a gift from parents, descendants or spouse

(b) a natural person who receives money from patronage out of duty of morality; or from giving by affection during ceremonies or on occasions of customs and traditions From another person who is not parents, descendants, or partners

Married

  (2) Property subject to tax:

  All types of movable property that can be calculated in terms of money

  (3) Income that is exempt:

·         Income received from support or from gifts from parents, descendants, or married spouses, only income that does not exceed 20 million baht throughout that tax year.

·         Income received from patronage as a duty of moral conduct or from gifts given in ceremonies, or according to customary occasions, from persons who are not parents, descendants, or spouses, only money received in an amount not exceeding 10 million baht throughout that tax year.

·         Income received which the giver expresses or is seen to intend to use for the benefit of the business, religion, educational affairs, or public interest affairs According to the criteria and conditions specified in the ministerial regulations.

  (4) Tax rate:

  The rate is 5 percent of the value of the property received in excess of 20 million baht or 10 million baht.

I attach the case study from 11 Feb 2023 in google translate and in the original.

The military seemed think at the time it was an open and shut case of LM and made the complaint to the police, vowing to ensure Thaksin faced prosecution.  The military seems as gentle as a lamb on this LM case now.  From I recall about it Thaksin stated in a Korea TV interview that the Privy Council was behind the 2014 coup.

7 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

As Ukresonant implies, just going through the process of gifting and then giving it back, doesn't meet the spirit of the Gift Tax rule. if it is a Gift it must be gifted and remain gifted.

The Civil & Commercial Code defines a gift as something irrevocable but then goes on to describe grounds under which a gift can be reclaimed.  More importantly the Civil & Commercial Code also makes all assets acquired by either spouse after marriage as common conjugal property.  So once the gift has been received in Thailand by the recipient spouse, it is legally common property. Another way of looking at it would be your spouse already has 5 million in her bank account and you gift her 2 million.  Then the following year she gifts you 2 million. Who can say whether she gifted you the 2 million you gifted her the year before or another 2 million that was already in her bank account (or that it was merely a shuffling around of conjugal common property)?  Gift tax has only been in Thailand for a few years and there are probably very few cases on record about it. As usual the decree was drafted leaving plenty of room for interpretation which has yet to be done.

I would expect a tightening up of the gift tax law but properly by reducing the tax exempt amount from 20 to 10 million for spouses and 10 to 5 million for others, rather than by going to the trouble of drafting pages and pages of regulations which is not the way the RD or the politicians work. The RD is extremely sparse compared to tax codes in developed countries.  That is the lazy way of legislating which also leaves open the possibility of interpreting in favour of people with money and influence, in the way we have seen several apparently open and shut cases of tax fraud eventually go in favour of the Shin family on appeal. 

9 hours ago, DrPhibes said:

Sorry but jumping in a bit late on this topic.  So, if I gift my non-working thai wife 3,000,000 baht of US work earnings to her separate US bank account yearly in the United States, create a doc that specifies that it is a gift, then wire that money from that separate account to my wife's separate Thai bank account, then she moves a bit of that money into my separate Thai bank account to add to my US Social Security (non-taxable to Thailand by virtue of tax treaty) coming to my separate account, we have no tax obligation to Thailand.

 

Sound about right?

 

Hope all well with everyone.

Gifting it to her in the US might not pass a sniff test by the RD.  Because the gifting didn't take place in Thailand, they might argue it was a transfer from your wife to herself and therefore assessable for Thai tax.  Personally I would make the gift transfer from one spouse's overseas account to the other spouse's Thai account.  Anyway it is uncharted waters, so your idea may well work but looks higher risk to me.

The bit about transferring to your Thai bank account to add to your US Social Security account I don't understand. How can you add to your US Social Security account in Thailand?

Pity there is no informed discussion of the legal situation in Thailand just feeble rants between the two camps.  What a waste of thread.

On 2/14/2024 at 4:46 PM, Kalasin Jo said:

Well Mike I guess that is the issue. I'm not an accountant, let alone a tax expert here or anywhere else. How do the Thai RD define "income" then? Is it any  (all) money sent to Thailand from overseas in their tax year regardless of source overseas?. That could include the sale proceeds of a capital item such as a house, a car, jewellery, watch etc etc remitted here as cash. What of the sum required to be in a Thai bank remitted from abroad and/or topped up from abroad for extensions of visas?

 

Am I being a pain ? Sorry if I am. I do hope absolutely clear guidance will be forthcoming from the Thai RD. Wishful thinking may be? Lost in translation may be, or simply the whim of your local office(er) as often with the Immigration regs? Some years back my local RD office were totally uninterested implying I should go away and stop making waves! So I did. Why did I even try? Well, it was based on my experience in France where I was resident for many years. There there is a legal obligation on you to register and make tax declarations if in country more than 180 days. Naively I thought it would be the same here

 

There are some, and I am one, that think that if the Thai government are going to regard retirees living 180 days or more here on foreign pensions and nothing else as tax resident, requiring annual tax declarations and potentially tax bills they should extend to them the same rights as Thai taxpayers and not regard us as long staying visitors/tourists with no rights. That should mean giving access to the thai state healthcare and welfare system, remove us from the dual pricing they apply to foreigners, give us a route to permanent resident immigration status, ending the forever annual extensions and reporting requirements when that is achieved ( 5 years of residency seems sensible and is used by other countries).

Or of course the government could simply maintain the status quo and exempt those with retirement visas /extensions.

Or we could spend less than 180 days a year here but for those with spouses and families here that is not necessarily realistic.

I do hope this "curve ball" and the alarm it has caused some foreign retirees  ( others just don't believe it), often supporting Thai  spouses and Thai families on their modest pensions, and the quid pro quo issues I raise are being drawn to the attention of those in power here by some with more clout than little old me! As far as I can see the Embassies have been silent.

Cheers!

No, It was the bit in the RD case study where they suggested that rules for asset declaration by political office holders required them to report assets and liabilities of live in common law spouses as if they were lawful spouses.  The RD said that these rules implied that Thai law could recognize common law marriage which might be relevant in the tax case i.e. allowing a 20 million exemption of common law spouses.  I didn't go into detail on this, as I thought it convoluted and not something that farangs could put any faith in.  But the confirmation of that overseas remittances from foreigners to Thai spouses count for 20 million exemption is positive in my view.