tomhell

Dear Chutima Sidasathian and Alan Morison,

thanks for your courage. It´s really a shame that you face prison time.

Who protects the navy? Is there any state comission who has the authority to inspect what´s goning on?

Is this topic considered important in thai public? (I know a naive question)

Best wishes for you

Tom

Tom

reminder to myself: I am a falang and know nothing. I can stay relaxed.

wow, really a lot of frustrated and negative falangs in this forum. Is it just the old age or is it just your nature?

I have respect for honest and caring redhirts. I have respect for honest and caring government protesters. This country is in a mess not just because of Thaksin or the government.

The more you insult and blame redshirts. The more you support the extremists on both sides.

Tom

I really like your idea. We change goverments. We take Yinluck as Bundeskanzlerin and you get Angela Merkel as PM.

I think Thailand would improve in many ways and I dream of Yinluck in a Bavarian dress (Dirndl) at the Oktoberfest.

MGP you are a genius. Do you think you can convince Suthep this is the most important reform Thailand needs.

Tom

Why don't the Germans let Ms Yingluck and all the members of her cabinet to govern Germany during few months? They would love it so much that they would never vote Angela again. They may even let Mr. Thaksin to live in Germany, as a senior adviser of the Bundesregierung.

I really like the Kalama Sutra. I don´t know if it´s considered important in Thai Theravada Budhism but I think it´s a great reminder for everyone not to follow mindless any tradition and belief.

The ten examples, which Lord Buddha gave in the Kalama Sutta follow:

Do not accept and believe just because something has been passed along and retold through the years

Do not believe just because some practice has become traditional.

Do not accept and believe merely because of the reports and news spreading.

Do not accept and believe just because something is cited in a Pitaka - The word “Pitaka,” which is used for the Buddhist scriptures, means anything written or inscribed upon any suitable writing material.

Do not believe just because something fits with the reasoning of logic (takka). This is merely one branch of study used to try to figure out the truth. Takka, what we call “logics,” can go wrong if its data or its methods are incorrect.

Do not believe just because something is correct on the grounds of naya (deductive and inductive reasoning) alone. These days, naya is called “philosophy.” In Thailand, we translate the word “philosophy” as “prajña,”

Do not believe or accept just because something appeals to one’s common sense, which is merely snap judgments based on one’s tendencies of thought. We like using this approach so much that it becomes habitual.

Do not believe just because something stands up to or agrees with one’s preconceived opinions and theories - Personal views can be wrong, or our methods of experiment and verification might be incorrect, and then will not lead to the truth. Accepting what fits our theories may seem to be a scientific approach, but actually can never be so, since its proofs and experiments are inadequate.

Do not believe just because the speaker appears believable - Outside appearances and the actual knowledge inside a person can never be identical. We often find that speakers who appear credible on the outside say incorrect and foolish things. Nowadays, we must be wary of computers because the programmers who feed them data and manipulate them may feed in the wrong information or use them incorrectly. Do not worship computers so much, for doing so goes against this principle of the Kalama Sutta.

Do not believe just because the Samana or preacher, the speaker, is “our teacher” - The Buddha’s purpose regarding this important point is that no one should be the intellectual slave of someone else, not even of the Buddha himself.

@ Morch

I said that democratic concepts were included in the Buddhist teachings and applied by him in the management of the Sangha . Such concepts would have entered Thailand within the Buddhist teachings. The Thai people did not need the 'benefit's of the colonial experience to learn them

I dont think of him as a great hero. He is a tragic figure, but not a evil or bad person. He was not a spy and he made no profit out of it.

I just dont think like a military person and I´m not a republican or conservative. I know if I would have join the army I would have been in big trouble too.

I think in his situation it was a bad decision to join the army.

Tom

If he's such a great hero, I wonder why they didn't grant him clemency.

He was a relatively low ranking person who did not have the knowledge or ability to ascertain what would help and would hurt others. He's a little like someone shooting into a crowd of people with an AK-47 because someone is suspected of being a criminal.

He is a criminal. He is a traitor. He has been treated as compassionately as can be expected.

Dear Mr. Soundman,

first we can remind ourselves that we are falang. We know nothing and we can relax

Indeed the situation in Thailand is complex and democracy should be never forced on people. People everywhere on this planet should be thirsty (or hungry) for democracy. Some people have a big appetite some people on a diet. Eyeryone decides for himself. That´s ok also in western countries some people (up to 50% of the population) are not interested in elections (the so called party of the non voters) In politics it´s an art to mobilize these non-voters. The most used techniques are populist schemes. Not all are bad but many times they are empty promises and manipulation. An general problem everywhere.

Another problem is when "big money" buys into politics. So called elites (banks,companies, old or new family clans) buy/influence politicians and disturb the democratic process.

The most basic foundation for any kind of democratic system is indeed the slogan: one man/woman - one vote. Everyone is equal.

If a culture/society cannot agree on this we have the mess which we see now in Thailand.

I asked the following questions many times in forum (somtimes questions more important than an answers). No one game me an answer.

1. What does it concrete mean when the PDRC (Suthep) says: We need reforms before an election.

2. Are there any concrete reforms suggestions until now.

3. Who decides which reforms will be law.

Have a nice day!

Tom

As to the OP, once again, outsiders are trying to impose their own idealogical society processes on something as complicated as Thai politics.

Absolutely no idea and hence should keep their traps shut on a situation they have little comprehension of.

"One man one vote." - Sure that means something in the West, but to many Thai's that idea is almost as foreign as a McDonald's cheeseburger.

What ARE you on about? Thailand is a democracy and democracy is a method, not something that can be attributed to ideology in any way, shape or form.

Rather than re-read after posting I have held off while having a spot of breakfast so as to consider what you have said. Oh right, you don't consider Thailand to be living under a Democracy and to that I fully agree, sorry.

So, after re-reading your post, you appear to think "democracy" should have an exact blueprint/formula that is to be used by every country/state/province/region around the world?

Democracy is what the participants make of it. Not something that is forced down their throat by others.

Are you real ? Are you Australian ? Are you over 60 Years ?

Questions Questions Questions.

Thailand was a mess before. Some people always have the same boring answer.

King, Nation, Military, Suthep, Obey and listen to authority.

Boring Boring Boring

Tom

It drew heavy criticism from both his party and the PDRC, but after all, since the PDRC plans to invoke Article 7 to seek a prime minister from His Majesty, why can't the ruling coalition cite the same article to ask His Majesty whether the caretaker government could remain in office?

Is this guy for real????

What ruling coalition?

Parliament was dissolved months ago, that 'ruling' coalition is no longer in place. In fact the PTP are no longer ruling...... IT'S A CARETAKER CABINET!!

Seriously, are these actually the best politicians that Thailand can come up with?..... No wonder the country is a mess and an international laughing stock!!!!!

I need your help.

When people talk about reforms before election. What does this mean?

Does anyone have knowledge about concrete reforms. (for example election law) ?

Who decides what reform has to happen?

Why the Election Commission has the power to delay or suspend an election ?

How is this Election Commission created. Who are the members of this commission ?

Thanks in advance for bringing light into my darkness.

Tom

Little reminder for Thailand:

Let us never forget that government is ourselves and not an alien power over us. The ultimate rulers of our democracy are not a King, General,President, MP and Senators and government officials, but the voters of this country.

reminder to myself: I am a stupid falang and I know nothing - this is not my country so I stay relaxed

What I totally missing in this political mess in Thailand is the following topic.

Reforms in Thailand should be about the concentration of wealth because it almost inevitably leads to a concentration of power that undermines real democracy. (when this problem is not solved there will be one coup after the other)

All this people here in this forum who talks about the majority should be more careful. Without a new election you just don´t know.

but maybe i know , The largest party in Thailand, by the way, is neither PTP nor the so called "Democrats". It's the party of non-voters.

I almost forget Cambodia. I have seen the killing fields not far from Pnomh Penh. Really a nightmare what happend to the people there.

Pol Pot was well educated in France and a member of the communist party. I think he was very idealistic in the beginning and then he developed his theory of stoneage communism. Extreme times where the Thais had to protect country and people.

Very interesting article. This forum is a great source of information. I can understand more and more this deep rooted anti-communism here in Thailand.

For example this part: "Vipar sees a parallel with the past in the process of dehumanising the enemy. Back then, communists were made into evil figures, something non-human. Today, said Vipar, Thaksin and red shirts are often portrayed as non-human and the political hatred is even extended to the young son of caretaker Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra.
"The cult of nationalism can turn 'the other' into evil,"

I can see it also in this forum where the "national extremists" very often insult redshirts (or the so called TV-Reds) and compare them to animals or call redshirts in general terrorists.

Thailand is deeply social divided. A lot of power still in the hands of the old family clans. What they want is clear. Keep the power for themself.

This hole situation here in Thailand is a mirror for the problems which exist in the society.


Thailand a country of extremes.

Tom

Thailand vehemently rooted communism out of Thai society. If you understand what went on in Cambodia I guess it was worth it.

However, they have followed the childish idea that any social change is inherently communist or dangerous, so, now its time to find a way to spread the wealth a bit, or thailand will go pop.

Dear Rabas,

i am a simple mind. (I like to be )

I´m not sure if I understood you intellectually but something inside of me says: Wow !!!

Quote Rabas: Yes, I'm also aware that I have not changed anyone's mind and that's fine. But I also know that no one can ever learn anything unless they are at least willing to change their mind when confronted with new truths.

This is the reason, why I am still in this forum. I want to explore and you all helping me.

Have a good day!

Tom

Very interesting article. This forum is a great source of information. I can understand more and more this deep rooted anti-communism here in Thailand.

For example this part: "Vipar sees a parallel with the past in the process of dehumanising the enemy. Back then, communists were made into evil figures, something non-human. Today, said Vipar, Thaksin and red shirts are often portrayed as non-human and the political hatred is even extended to the young son of caretaker Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra.

"The cult of nationalism can turn 'the other' into evil,"

I can see it also in this forum where the "national extremists" very often insult redshirts (or the so called TV-Reds) and compare them to animals or call redshirts in general terrorists.

Thailand is deeply social divided. A lot of power still in the hands of the old family clans. What they want is clear. Keep the power for themself.

This hole situation here in Thailand is a mirror for the problems which exist in the society.

Thailand a country of extremes.

Tom

This article is not pro shin.

Quote from the khaosod article: Because of its misguided pursuit of the "Blanket Amnesty", Pheu Thai Party ends up sabotaging the hopes that these prisoners could be freed from their captivity, back into the embrace of their families and friends.

Please understand: Many progressive redshirts are not pro shin anymore. The more you insult the redshirts with "suthep extremist" propaganda the more you support the extremists on both side.

Now in big capitals: NOT ALL PROGRESSIVE/SOCIALIST REDSHIRTS ARE PRO SHINAWATRA:

Tom

I am positively surprised from this khaosod article. Not all redshirts are primitive,extremists or terrorists.

What I like to see is a new progressive/socialist/labour movement with absolute no influence from the Shinawatra family clan.

I think this is possible. Extremists on both sides (specially the "suthep extremists" in this forum) want to make us believe this is not possible. Pure propaganda dont believe them.

Please understand: There are good and moderate people on both sides. Let´s work together !

Quote from the article:

The damage of the crackdown extends beyond the loss of lives: Thai society has become far more polarised than ever, some factions of the Redshirts turned to radicalisation, while dozens of political prisoners have languished in prison since the final days of the military operation in 2010.

Hopes were stirred among the Redshirts and human rights activists in Thailand when Yingluck Shinawatra surged to power via a landslide election victory in 2011, with a promise that her government will pursue legal prosecution against the perpetrators of the 2010 crackdown, and issue amnesty bills for ordinary citizens who had been jailed simply because they were caught up in the chaos of the protests.

Over the next few years, we saw debates surrounding the amnesty idea, mainly about who should and should not benefit from the amnesty. A prevailing consensus among the public, and among the Redshirts supporters, was that only protesters of all sides should be dissolved from the any pending legal cases against them, while political leaders, officials, and politicians should be excluded from the plan.

However, in November 2013, Pheu Thai Party, most likely egged on by former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, eventually came up with "Blanket Amnesty" or "All-in-Basket Amnesty" which threw everyone onboard, including Mr. Thaksin himself.

The bill would have not have only dissolved corruption convictions against Mr. Thaksin; it was written in a language which could absolve any responsibility for Mr. Thaksin in his heavy handed approach to the southern insurgency in 2005 as well, raising the speculation that the amnesty bill was designed only for the helmsman of Pheu Thai Party.

Thanks for your reply,

do you know something about the election changes they want to make. (or in general what does Suthep concrete means when he speaks about reform before a new election).

Tom

The so called "Democrats" belong to the corrupted old elites of Thailand and they probably would not win the next election. (when they won the last election?)

I think many Thais are fed up with all the parties because most of all politicians are self-serving and corrupt.

Thailand needs a new socialdemocratic/socialist/labour party without any influence of Thaksin´s family clan.

I am optimistic Thailand can develope from a feudalistic system to a modern democracy.

Best wishes

Tom

Where to begin, where to begin with this?

For one the Democrat party is indeed an old party, but to say it 'belongs' to the old elite goes a bit too far. Now if you had said the Pheu Thai party belongs to the new elite you'd be much more correct.

The Democrat Party also manages to 'win' between 25 - 35% of seats every general election they participate in. So every time they win, or at least the people who voted for them. That's how it works in a democracy. Now the Pheu Thai in 2011 won 47% of votes and 265 out of 500 seats. That led them to say "thanks for the votes, we have a mandate' and they started to ignore and even block any opposition. Now that's not democratic.

So indeed now more and more Thais get upset with all shenanigans and corruption and losing 700++ billion in two years only thanks to Thaksin's wonderful rice scam.

Now if indeed we can get the reform framework the PDRC is slowly proparing to be filled in with participation of a broader segment of the Thai population, with more and more input of all sectors and classes, we may get a reform which we can even manage to make binding to ALL.

Then there will be hope even the rural areas of Thailand may evolve from depending on local 'elite' to selfreliance, self-entitlement, democracy.

The so called "Democrats" belong to the corrupted old elites of Thailand and they probably would not win the next election. (when they won the last election?)

I think many Thais are fed up with all the parties because most of all politicians are self-serving and corrupt.

Thailand needs a new socialdemocratic/socialist/labour party without any influence of Thaksin´s family clan.

I am optimistic Thailand can develope from a feudalistic system to a modern democracy.

Best wishes

Tom

The democrats have already declared that they will run again as long as their are at a minimum 'electoral reforms' before the ballot.

They have no desire to run in an undemocratic election like the last several.

What part of that do PTP not understand?

Of course PT want elections, they know that in 80% of the country, the Dems are no allowed to campaign for fear of being shot dead by PT's red shirt terrorist unit. Along with all the voter intimidation (and yes it exists), and buying off village chiefs to force their villagers to vote Thaksin.

If I was leader of the Dems, I would refuse as well, and in every civilized democracy, all parties would also refuse if one party was producing elections like this for the rest of their competition.

FREE AND FAIR.... OR NOT AT ALL!!!!!!!!!

So, not only did they deliberately trash the road and district, all of which has a religious designation, but, according to the OP, we now need to wait and see if the Red Communists left any IEDs or landmines on the road. What a pack of animals this group is.

I am shocked about the insults and primitive language in this forum.

You complain about primitive redshirts. Just look at yourself.

I think you are a very frustated and negative person.

I know "saving face" is a big topic in Thailand but I think the public worldwide has a interest to know who is responsible for the death of 89 people. Relax people (specially falang) just take as a history lesson.

Someone has something to hide and it´s interesting to look behind the curtain.

Thank you so much for sharing your opinion. This is the best I red a long time in this forum.

The main reasons for suffering according to Lord Buddha are:

1. Greed (attachment to material things)

2. Hate/Dislike (violence - project my inner frustration to people outside)

3. Ignorance (living in illusion - dont understand the true nature of existence)

In this forum (country) are so many negative and frustrated people. Please understand, it´s very easy to see the mistakes just in other people . We are all in this together.

What this country (all countries) needs are more mindful leaders. (politicians). Not important if they

are royalist, nationalist, democrats, socialists, redshirts or whatever.

Not to difficult to understand but difficult to practice.

Working for the greater good. Not just for me,me, me

Be the change you want to see. Do good - be good

A balanced society, Benefit for all. This is my deep wish for Thailand.

Tom

Quote:

I feel more terrorized from greedy Bangkok people and conservative nationalists.

May Buddha save us all!

Tom

So from 500.000 paid red shirts 3 days ago down to 200.000 yesterday and now 700.000! The guy who do their counting probably need a calculator to add 10 + 10.

No matter HOW MANY-------- they are red shirts.This is a serious rally ----not a Suthep play around-------- Big trouble for all of us

May Buddha protect you all

Hello Charmonman,

thanks for your reply. I was in a provocative mood and felt the need to defend the udd. Since my childhood I admired Robin Hood. Maybe you know the story, it´s about a hero who defends the poor and weak from the rich and powerful. I am quite a simple person and this my view. ;-)

Bangkok is the center for the rich and powerful, The old family clans against the new family clans.

Violence can happen more often in a society when there is no social justice/equality.

A society just based on profit, greed and corruption is inhuman. Dont understand me wrong this is no excuse for violence. You have to see the big picture it´s not just about good or bad people.

It´s about democracy, social rights, good education also for poor people.

Capitalism needs a counterforce. I dont say socialism is perfect or the best

A balanced society. Benefit for all. Not just a minority. This is my deep wish for Thailand.

Sorry for my bad english.

Tom

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Dear arrogant Bangkok People,

lets imagine the UDD comes to Bangkok and no violence happends. I think then you are very unhappy. Oh my god, the redshirts are so primitive and you Bangkok people are so cultivated and intelligent.

I can understand very well, why some people dont want to be governed from Bangkok.

This is the reason I dont want to live in a big city. I dont want to become like you.

Best wishes

Tom

This is about a prominent Red Shirt leader calling on his followers to start a civil war. This is an incitement to violence, is it not?

You don't have to be an "arrogant Bangkok person", cultivated or even all that intelligent to not want a frigging civil war!

What is your point, Tom?