WISteve

I nearly lost a new camera when I was parked in a dark beer bar at the corner of Soi 8 and Beach Road having a late night brew about 4 am in November. I was foolish enough to bring it with me when I left the hotel an hour earlier looking for some late night action. I was chatting with a BB girl with the camera sitting on the table and a late teens/early twenties Thai guy rounded the corner behind me off Beach Road. When he paused and lingered nearby for a few seconds I figured out I might be in trouble so I stood up, put the camera strap over my head and asked him if there was a problem. He was looking right at me and said something in Thaiglish about me having a nice camera and promptly moved on down the Soi.

The whole thing reminded me that I need to use common sense at all hours when in a foreign country. I also feel very lucky for still having $1,000+ worth of camera safe at home!

-- WISteve

Sorry to ask the obvious, but what is the REAL underlying purpose of this by TRT? Lord knows they don't take a dump without a good reason, ie. monetary purpose. I've thought about this over the evening and think of only a few possibilities:

1) Legitimate moral concerns of the Thai youth? ( Yeah, you bet!)

2) Driving out the falang owners of the bars so their own buddies can pick up the properties on the cheap?

3) Simply pocketing the under the table short-term money for designating their friends/cousins real estate as in a designated "zone"?

4) Flushing out the "sex tourist" trade in the short term before they open the inevitable gambling casinos run by their relatives?

There must be some logic to their seemingly irrational behavior, right? Or is it just a brash florish of power to cover for all the face lost when they were caught in the avian flu lies?

As an aside to the presumptions that prices/attitudes will somehow improve with fewer tourist: don't count on it! What did many of the Nana Go-Go's do in the face of the drop in tourist numbers last spring with the SARS scare? They raised prices, of course! Normal market rules don't apply. Greed almost always does.

So who's pocket is getting lined with this little fiasco?

I'm clueless......?

-- Steve

"Once I got to Soi 71."

 Holy cow!  You must be in Cambodia by then?  I know Suk technically runs way the heck out of town and actually is a part of the highway through Pattaya, etc....

 But I never get very far walking that street.  I get "kidnapped" by some floozy and am forced back to my hotel room for some unmentionable depravity!

 LOS...ya gotta love it!

--WISteve

Molarman,

 Yes I can understand the concern of a parent for their small children: "They worry about the effect on their young children of constant exposure to it all".  I would not choose to have mine around the ladies on a regular basis.  But I'm just not sure how you would solve the problem you mentioned?  Can you really outlaw bad taste?  

 I don't drink, smoke or do drugs so I think I am in a minority in that broad catagory of "punters".  I really don't care for the drunken excess one might see at times, but if no law is broken....?

 I found the new police registry idea different.  Suppose they might actually put it to some good use and require real STD screening and delivery of other basic healthcare?  Some real good might come of it, but I suppose it would be too much to ask..?

 Interesting discussion folks.

--WISteve

Molarman,

 "dont you just want those away fans out of town a.s.a.p.? ".

 Well, if they are burning cars and smashing windows most certainly.  But if that is not the case and they bring employment to literally thousands of Thais, well......?

 A couple preliminaries in case you hadn't already suspected.  I know my way around the upper Suk (oft times called the Farang Ghetto) and it wasn't gained delivering pizza.  I also completely agree with you that many Bangkok Thai and Farang expats do not approve of the public displays you will likely see on any given day or night.  But I would be willing to bet most of these outspoken individuals do not rely upon tourism for their livelihood.  

 But I think the disapproval you hear from the Thai does not stem from what is taking place there.  It is the PUBLIC display of this activity which they take issue with.  I suspect that the Buddhist search for moderation has something to do with this disapproval, but don't wish to offend anyone with my clumsy efforts to understand their motives.

 I think the disapproval expressed by many non-Thai residents to the antics you find on Suk Av is based on their transplanted moral judgements.  They disapprove of any of these activities, public or otherwise.  I think you may have referenced friends or acquaintances who live in the area?  Based on our Western standards we do not approve, period.

 If I might digress a bit, I can remember my first visit to Bangkok.  I arrived on a late Friday night flight and arrived at my hotel near midnight.  I honestly thought it must be Mardi Gras, or New Years or SOMETHING!!  I had traveled on that first trip innocently for business purposes and found what I thought was Sodom!  But believe it or not, some of those folks aren't Goths set on burning down the town.  Some of us have degrees and professional careers.  And while admittedly the editors of GQ won't be on the next plane to do a photo layout of the fashion sense found on the stroll, I'm just not sure how we are going to inspire fashion sense in these folks.  What do we do, initiate a dress code?  Not allow the balding and slightly plump tourist to walk within a specified distance of the bar girl he is just cut a deal with?

  I honestly understand your concerns and heartily support licensing, regulation and expanded healthcare for the ladies in the trade.  But try not to lose sight of the market dynamics taking place and the truly harsh economic effects of trying to elliminate the industry.  Many of the ladies and families behind them were below the poverty level for this third world nation.  Few of us can appreciate the profound poverty many of them are escaping.  You'll never wipe out the trade. All you will do by driving it underground is subject these ladies to the harsher treatment many of their less fortunate co-workers endure in the less visible Thai market.  If you want to see "bad", check out a Thai brothel sometime!  

 Not sure I will ever convince you of anything or visa-versa, but we all need to understand we can't always impose our Western ideals upon an Eastern culture.

Have a good day,

WISteve

Molarman,

 when was the last time you attended a football game on the continent?

 "loud behaviour,unbelievably tasteless dress sense in a city centre,some of the worst haircuts on the planet,drunkeness,choice of company"  

  Yup, that about sums it up!

--WISteve

MekhongKurt,

 You were on point with your comment and glad you made it.  Cheap shots without substance shouldn't be tolerated.  

 Tourism is the largest industry in Thailand following agriculture: " Before the Jakarta bomb, Thailand was expecting its important tourist industry to recover to the point that only 10 percent fewer foreigners would take holidays here in 2003 than last year.

That, the state tourism promotion agency reckoned, would still mean tourist revenues would fall to 290 billion baht ($6.98 billion) this year from 323 billion baht, or about six percent of gross domestic product, in 2002."

http://www.thaivisa.com/index.php?514&back...514&tt_news=486

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/th.html

 Are there social and health negatives with prostitution?  Certainly.  Do the majority of Isaan parents and families particularly care where the money is coming from?  Not likely.

"prostitution provides one of the few ways out. Despite the very large number of women in Bangkok engaging in prostitution in its various forms, conservatively estimated at 300,000 (Phongpaichit: 1981: 14-15), this occupation still offers to most women an income considerably greater than anything they could hope to earn in another line of work."

 For all the moralizing made in this thread, most of the Thais actually involved in the sex trade (and their families) could care less what you thing of their behavior.

"Prostitution existed in Thailand long before the country became a popular destination of sex-tourism. Tourism, however, had a crucial impact on the trade. Not only did the number of girls engaging in prostitution grow considerably, but the nature of the occupation changed with the emergence of the new clientele"

 I can't find the link at the moment, but I've read good research on the fact that 80-90% of the prostitutes in Thailand service a local clientele.  It's just that the Thai are much more careful about it because they LIVE HERE!  They frankly don't want the spouse/significant other to find out about their daliances because it could end very badly for them.  The tourists on Suk Av/Beach Rd aren't residents and conduct themselves in a more open and obvious manner.  They are also on holiday and spend substantially more on their "vices" then the locals.  They are coming from countries where average monthly incomes far exceed the 8-10K baht that the local economy pays.

 Whether the moralists wish to recognize it or not, the sex tourist is an important part of the Thai economy.  Regulate it, tax it and improve the healthcare of the ladies involved.  They deserve that.  But unless you are ready to provide the dollars from your pocket to pay the vast array of people directly and indirectly employed my the industry you had best keep your hands out of the Thais pockets.

--WISteve

Well, considering I'm headed for Pattaya and BKK for a month of serious mongering in 15 days, it better not be a return to the Victorian Era!  Something tells me they are going to beat-up on a few go-gos that have the trashy shows (that's a good idea I think!) and leave the rest of the entertainment industry alone.  With arguably 300,000 ladies of the evening scattered about the country, I doubt they want them put out of work, just kept out of sight a little. Discretion is good.  Pitching darts without your hands is just gross.

Take care,

WISteve

Yes, kudos on the Thai-language.com dictionary.  When I've read a word somewhere and have lost the meaning it's great to be able to query the transliteration. Simple words like "teach" or "learn" I've found have many, many meanings in Thai.   Helpful and fun to use.

Thanks gentlemen.

--WISteve

You might even get some benefit yourself...don't you think?

Of course I will.  Doubt I would begin th process of learning to read Thai without some perceived benefit to myself.  Just too bloody much work for nothing.  But it also makes points with the natives I think and shows them respect.

--WISteve

"I also don't have problems with soi dogs. I just choose not to have them sleeping in my bed."

Hehehehehehe...I'm an old whoremonger from way back Brian, but that is the best quote I've seen in ages!  Good one!

Take care,

WISteve

MaiChai,

 Thanks for the reference to the two books.  I just ordered them both on Amazon.com for just under $51 US.  For the benefit of others, the complete names are:

--Thai Reference Grammar:  The Structure of Spoken Thai

  by James Higbie

--Thai:  An Essential Grammar (Routiedge Grammars)

  by David Smyth

 I'll look forward to working on them and the language. I'll try to be a good little farang and show them the minimum respect of learning their language.

Take care,

WISteve

I'm glad to see the members of this forum stand up for what is right for all individuals involved.  The students deserve the best, the teachers should have the professional ethics within them, and hopefully the government will strictly enforce the law.

It reflects badly on the profession when individuals obviously lacking basic spelling or English skills obtain credentials for cash. I hope to joint the English teaching profession in Thailand within the year, and I'm looking forward to doing it honestly.

Take care,

WISteve

"You pay bar fine now?" ::

--WISteve

I would like to add my experiences recently to correct a couple inaccurate statements actually.  I was in BKK for three weeks end of April and the first week of May and got fairly cozy with a dancer at Hollywood Strip in NEP. Got to know her friends, some from the bar and a couple non-pros.  I was there at the bar early to barfine the lady on payday, May 3rd. the envelopes I saw all read between 5,900 and 11,000 baht for the month of April.  This doesn't include the fees charged to the customer by the girls of course, so the dancers in the better places aren't exactly doing bad compared to the beer bar wages mentioned previously in this thread.

 BTW, she'll never see a baht of my money in the mail but is still e-mailing me daily.  Momma didn't raise no fool.....