cumgranosalum

13 hours ago, MiKT said:

 

Well, if you think there are still plenty of places left in Thailand where elephants can still live in peace, you simply have not been around enough. The "Massive" Western forest complex is no longer massive or much of a forest complex any more, it has been very largely taken over by local (mostly Karens) illegally cutting down the trees and planting cash crops. This is not an "assumption" I have been often and seen the dreadful spreading results over the years. It is terrible and well known indictment of successive Thai governments that they have done very little to redeem this situation.

 

Its the same everywhere, Khao Yai used to be full of Tigers and Elephants, but if you go up one of the mountains and have proper look around you will find that it is yet another sham with many areas denuded of decent trees and only secondary jungle left which is not very good for big animals. Still some wildlife left, but not very much.

 

NB Before now, means before now, have you seen any elephants in Sukhumvit Soi 4 or Patpong lately? It used to be common, but at least that is something that has been cracked down on.

 

NBB If you have actual evidence of smuggling being on the increase please produce it. I will happily support any actions to prevent it, but from the evidence of the hundreds of thousands of k's I have spent visiting nearly every area in Thailand over the past 20 odd years I think (hope) that things are not as bad for elephants in Thailand (as far as exploitation for tourism is concerned) as they were 20 years ago. Much worse for wild elephants of course.

 

But smuggling from where? You would I think be surprised just how much elephants are cared for in some places, a couple of weeks ago in Bangladesh an elephant was washed down in the floods on one of the big rivers from India and they could not coax it ashore to tranquilise and take back for 3 weeks. Unfortunately it was too late when they did and the exhausted elephant died, But it was tracked the whole time. I think I can categorically say that places in Thailand where there are "unknown" groups of elephants living in tranquil surroundings untroubled by mankind is just a  wishful thinking fantasy.  Same for Myanmar.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"But smuggling from where?" - It is clear you are completely uninformed on the topic - your travels have taught you nothing,.

i'm not in the business of researching on your behalf - if you want to take a constructive part in this thread may I suggest you do some proper research - not "search".

just to get you started - you might want to understand the link between tourism and smuggling - which you obviously are unaware of.

baby Elephant smuggling

Baby elephant Smuggling doco

i think you'd find that you were making more informed comments if you didn't just rely on your own limited perspective that you obviously overestimate.

It is a classic mistake to claim that because you have visited a place you are then fully informed about wat is happening.

(I too have travelled thousands of KM in Thailand and do not rely on this for any myopic mis-interpretation of the situation)

may I suggest you read this report?

AN ASSESSMENT OF THE LIVE ELEPHANT TRADE IN THAILAND

hopefully it will put you straight on a few things. If you are going to contribute at least make the effort to inform yourself of the basics of the issues instead of just posting your own personal unsubstantiated assumptions.

1 hour ago, tonray said:

You failed to realize that you must bring it to a fake embassy for the 'official' stamp if the degree is fake.

I don't understand your comment - I thought it was perfectly clear that even a fake degree can get a stamp that purports to be from the appropriate embassy...this means that people are not just forging/bending Thai docs but also "impersonating" other countries embassies.

The full extent of this has surprised me a lot.

I have been doing a bit of research into this and found that fake degrees can even get an "official" embassy stamp  - an all-in process to get visa/work permit etc etc.

3 hours ago, Johpa said:

 

Rest assured that sometimes even owned working elephants, whether in logging or in tourism, have disappeared for a few days. They have no problem finding food in the forest or in someone's garden.  They are often allowed to wander in the forest at night to search for food but they are  indeed hobbled by a chain attached to their front feet that prevents them for wandering too far and the chain also leaves marks on the forest floor so the mahout can track down the elephant in the morning.

 

Because of all the encroachment, both permitted and illegal, the amount of land available in the national parks for free ranging elephants is no longer sufficient to accept all the elephants in Thailand.

 

By self-sustaining I am referring to the large elephant camps such as Mae Sa that breed their own stock.  Mae Sa is not self-sustaining as far as food and large quantities are trucked in daily,

 

I have seen no notice of large scale killings of elephants in national parks although one does read of the occasional killing for the ivory.

 

Look, in a perfect world there would be no elephant camps and no "trained" elephants.  But this is not a perfect world and the better run elephant camps such as Mae Sa and up in Mae Tang are part of the solution.  The BS little me-to tourist elephant camps on the islands are a problem as are all the other amateur run me-to tourist sites that the government tolerates.

 

As for the smuggling of elephants along the Thai-Burma border, that is a problem but is not the biggest smuggling problem on that border.  Remember that the Thai military, those who inherited the border business of General Chavalit Yongchaiyudh, control all the trade across the border, people, elephants, rubies, you name it.  The RTA is the law on east side of the border.

"Because of all the encroachment, both permitted and illegal, the amount of land available in the national parks for free ranging elephants is no longer sufficient to accept all the elephants in Thailand.' - quite simply, incorrect. You have no basis for that comment.

"But this is not a perfect world and the better run elephant camps such as Mae Sa and up in Mae Tang are part of the solution." - i'm sorry but you are jumping to conclusions - firstly I'm not making a comment on any particular "elephant park" as it is incredibly difficult to judge how effective they are - and as a lay-person i wouldn't presume to do so - but you are making a big mistake in assuming that because they are "OK" they are part of the solution. The problem is manifold, smuggling, treatment conservation and welfare - so long as camps whoever they are - are promoting tourist entertainment that is abusive or counter-productive ecologically they are CONTRIBUTING to the problem.

there isn't a single one step answer to the problem but what would help is if tourists, visitors and expats alike had a little bit more idea of what the actual problem was.

PS - because "you haven't noticed" doesn't mean that the slaughter of elephants isn't continuing it seems your ideas are based largely on personal perspective and assumption, which in itself in the long run only contributes further to the problems.

18 minutes ago, Wilsonandson said:

You sound like Johnny Morris from Animal Magic or is it Dr Doolittle, he talks to the animals. Do you have human friends or is your home managery of animals, a Noah's ark?

"Hello Peter the dog and how are you? Clare the cat? I hope you didn't frighten Percy the pigeon, again."

it would appear that now, bereft of any constructive arguement you have resorted to nonsense and unsupported ad hominem attacks.

please have the decency to explain or correct yourself.

let's hope that at least this incident gives a bit of publicity to the "40th anniversary of the Thammasat University massacre."

A event that thids government seems to want to ignore?

see here.....

Students defy Thai rulers to mark Thammasat University massacre

2 hours ago, MiKT said:

 

Well this terrible image is from 2011 and shows a baby elephant being beaten  into submission in during a "training session" in a Karen village in Burma before being smuggled into Thailand so I freely admit I am wrong and much needs to be done to stop this if it is still prevalent.

 

The website is http://photoblog.nbcnews.com/_news/2011/03/03/6180772-baby-elephant-tortured-into-submission-before-illegal-smuggling-from-burma-to-Thailand.

 

 

 

 

However, I think that there is less smuggling than before and certainly you don't see elephants being paraded around in Bangkok like they used to be; and even in Pattaya, not very many  now.

 

Some "trained" (ha ha) elephant shows in the Crocodile Farm at Samute Prakarn and the Zoo and the Safari Park, but I would have thought they had enough babies without needing to smuggle more.

 

There are always a few elephants around in Buri Ram, but I think its the same family that have been around for years, no new babies lately.

 

Also I am puzzled why the big elephant camps in the north would need to smuggle in babies, they have more than enough to look after.

 

Hopefully somebody will spill some more light on this situation.

 

However, I do think that there are not many wild elephants killed here for their babies, as their are so few places left for elephants to live in the wild left in Thailand and elephant deaths are usually well documented in the papers. Mostly car accidents and a few poisonings from idiot farmers trying to protect illegal crops in the wildlife areas where no farming is supposed to take place.

 

More facts welcomed, but I stand by my earlier post to say, keep away from elephants, they are not pets.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

you are making assumptions that completely ignore the evidence.

"However, I think that there is less smuggling than before and certainly you don't see elephants being paraded around in Bangkok like they used to be; and even in Pattaya, not very many  now."

"Less smuggling than before"?? - it is on the increase  - what do you mean "before" - before what???

tHe value of a baby elephant has been estimated as high as 800,000 baht.

ivory for adults  is also sought after 

The value of young elephants as tourist attractions has made them a highly desirable product.

"However, I do think that there are not many wild elephants killed here for their babies, - Elephants have been reported killed in several locations in Thailand over the last few years - many more are believed either not reported or eve discovered....however animals in the wild do not have passports and the slaughter continues over the border as families of wild elephants are killed for the babies for smuggling into the lucrative tourist trade and ivory is taken from the adults as a bonus.

" elephant deaths are usually well documented in the papers" - no they are not - only the few discovered are reported - the Western Forest Complex is massive and a whole group of dead elephants can remain undiscovered in such a vast region.

"as their are so few places left for elephants to live in the wild left in Thailand" - again pure assumption - there is a large amount of forest - pristine and otherwise that is suitable for elephants, it is illegal encroachment causing conflict with humans, poaching and poisoning by those wishing to take over land that is a major threat. It is regrettable that the law is simply not enforced - or due to the topography, an't be enforced.

2 hours ago, whaleboneman said:

This is a common mistake. People don't always read carefully. However it is clear from the statement that It is not always the person who rear ends someone that is at fault. That's what the "almost" means. Also, it is always a good idea to triple check your facts as you may be wrong.

which is precisely what I said - i suspect you are aiming your quote at the wrong person (me?)

1 hour ago, Johpa said:

 

Most elephants are left to fend for themselves after work. They are hobbled to prevent them from wandering too far and into someone's garden. But they can still live in the "wild". Problem is that there is no longer enough wild left relative to the total number of elephants.

 

 

Most of the larger elephant camps up north, such as Mae Sa, the largest in the north, are self-sustaining.  Many of the smaller elephant camps up north get their elephants from local Karen owners who have allowed some natural breeding to take place within their small herds. As the existence of remote logging camps has dwindled so has the practice of capturing wild elephants.  I can't say what is happening in Burma, where Burmese troops are still slaughtering people, but I doubt you will find today instances of slaughtering elephant families in the Thai national parks where the few wild elephant herds exist.

 

 

Virtually every point in this post is wrong.

The logging elephants don't live in the wild.

Nor are they are not hobbled a left in the wild.

There IS enough space for elephants both wild and captive - but unfortunately it is being illegally encroached and broken up leaving wild herds isolated and reserves for captive elephants without sufficient finance.

What is meant by "self-sustaining"? Ay wildlife or captive animal requires protection and care.

The capture of wild elephants is on the increase as the original population of logging elephants dwindles the "owners" wish to continue making money from exploiting elephants as tourist entertainment.

Most of the smuggled elephants come across the Thai/Burma border where the extensive jungle and lawless borders make this relatively easy.

There are MANY instances of elephants being killed in Thai national parks - and it has been suggested that the ones reported may just be the tip of the iceberg

2 hours ago, MiKT said:

 

No this is absolute BS as far as Thailand  is concerned. Where are all the wild elephants left in Thailand? there are regrettably  very few indeed and getting less every year due to habitat loss and traffic accidents, caused by mad drivers speeding through the few parks where wild elephants live at night.

Anyway, stealing a baby elephant from the wild elephants would be very difficult, as you might find out if you had ever been chased by one. The tourist elephants all come from the now defunct logging industry.

 

I don't agree with elephants being fed by tourists and it is amazing how many people are killed or mangled by so called "tame" elephants every year in Thailand, not to mention India, Bangladesh and Myanmar.

 

The mahouts don't just kick them behind the ear they use very sharp hooks to keep them under control. Yes many mahouts have good relationships with their elephants, but also many get killed by angry elephants in "Musth"  - or just pissed off with being mistreated.

 

But it is absolutely disgusting to blame the elephant and to talk of having it put down is disgraceful. Fortunately this is one time when Thai attitudes will prevail. There are many elephants around that have killed several people. I met an old one once in Kanchanaburi that had killed 10 people and it was still being kept as it only killed people stupid enough to get near when it was in Musth.

 

Bottom line, stay away from elephants and don't encourage feeding by tourists.

 

 

" The tourist elephants all come from the now defunct logging industry." - unfortunately this is not true - the value of elephants as tourist attractions has meant that now there is a lot of demand for new animals and this means capture of  animals form the wild and smuggling of the animals across borders.

"stealing a baby elephant from the wild elephants would be very difficult"

Unfortunately you are ill-informed again.......smuggling of baby elephants is the most profitable - how are they separated from their family? Well by killing the adults first, often for ivory.

3 minutes ago, Wilsonandson said:

Yes, I know about this. Burmese elephant. Taken from the wild. A baby elephant as well. What do you want me to say? Very sad.
I will say to you something though. You know monkey world a rescue santuary in Dorset, U K. Well, my big sis works there, helps out, cleans the enclosure. Those 2 people that own the place come out to Thailand quite frequently looking for monkeys who need rescuing and other animals.
I enjoyed my elephant ride in Koh Chang, my sister liked my facebook pictures. My thoughts of you are that you seem like some animal rights type of person. Good for you. We all need variety as variety is the spice of life. You were quite vocal about the Tiger Temple I remember, too. Is elephants the latest crusade? Bored of tigers now are we?
Sorry if I sound rude, not !

You clearly haven't an inkling about wildlife, animal welfare or conservation as you seem to think each animal is a separate issue.

As for riding elephants - it is simple; if you can ride it, it's being exploited.

as for the baby elephants - the government has just issued a dictum saying that all captive elephants are to be DNA tested - it is remarkable how naive people are when they accept some cockamamie story about orphan elephants and "happy families". There are no indigenous elephants on KC they has all been shipped over from the mainland and even Cambodia or Myanmar......the babies history can only be suspect - they of course have a huge added value being a primary attraction for the gullible tourist.

1 hour ago, Grusa said:

There are some sad truths here:-

There are those who love elephants, and will say, do and approve anything to keep the species going;

There are those who love elephants, and will condemn anything that suggests exploitation or abuse;

There are those who give not a flying <deleted> for elephants, or any other living thing except themselves;

There are a very few who hate elephants and want to see them extinct.

 

None of the above will ever agree about anything to do with elephants.

 

Really, we should learn from the elephants, who probably have similar views about humanity, but refrain from slaughtering us, or themselves.

you really don't seem to understand the issues at all..or the stances of those who are "pro-elephant" - this is not just a question of whether elephants are looked after or "survive" - it is an even more pressing issue; that of the environment in Thailand and the whole surrounding region. the Elephant is a KEYSTONE species (look it up!) without which much of Thailand's wild places will degrade or even collapse (and those of neighbouring countries) - the attitudes to elephants and captive animals in general allows the continued destruction of eco and bio systems that we as humans need as much as the elephants. The continued exploitation of these creatures merely goes to show how profoundly ignorant many people are of the critical issues that surround them.

12 minutes ago, Grubster said:

This would require killing of a few thousand elephants that were trained for logging, They don't know how to live in the wild. Its a big problem for Thailand and nobody really wants to pay to feed them except tourists.

Wildlife reserves are areas set aside of animals - elephants are intelligent and can live in a fenced reserve quite happily. this happens around the world, including Thailand.

they can be released into the wild - not because they can't fend for themselves - but because with no "fear" of humans they will readily approach and encroach. even wild elephants present a problem to farmers if their habitat and food supply becomes restricted.

the truth is that despite "encroachment" therte is a lot of land in Thailand that can either be used as reserves or returned to un-encroached forest....this means that given the will the country could protect both wild and captive elephants.

2 hours ago, Wilsonandson said:

Meanwhile in Koh Chang....

The baby elephant stays with it's mother for the first 2 years. Then if there are other babies a cresh is formed. A bit like going to preschool. They go off together in the morning. Say goodbye to mum. Walk down to the beach have a swim in the sea. Some of the older elephants might let some of the younger children ride on it's back. Then it's back to camp for breakfast. Which takes up alot of the elephants time, eating lots of fresh elephant food. Then its check up time. Each of the elephants feet are checked, they're skin, temperature, teeth, ears, ...

During the hot part of the day all the elephants return to camp. So the babies are reunited with their mothers. Then late afternoon they all travel down to the beach each holding the others tail for an afternoon dip and then it's back to camp for more food and an early night's sleep.

I know this, because I have spent the whole day with them. Just once. 7am-5pm. A day I shall always remember as I hope the elephants do also when I visit them again. Hopefully soon.

Firstly why are there elephants on Koh Chang??

secondly why are there baby elephants and where do they come from?

Raid on KC elephant camp

have you seen how baby elephants are "broken"

7 hours ago, twizzian said:

The elephant did not want to eat "nam wa" (raw/unripe) bananas, why would it be a dumb animal.

if a stranger forced bananas down your throat how would you react?

It seems some folk on here can be dumber than elephants!

"If a stranger forced bananas down your throat how would you react?" - pray tell, how would you do that to an elephant???

4 hours ago, ukrules said:

 

I read it. I stand by my comment, this violent elephant needs putting down.

4 hours ago, ukrules said:

 

I read it. I stand by my comment, this violent elephant needs putting down.

4 hours ago, ukrules said:

 

I read it. I stand by my comment, this violent elephant needs putting down.

elephants are a particularly intelligent social animal...how do you propose to kill it and then deal with the effect it has on the rest of the herd?

Elephants eat about 150 kg of vegetation a day. They eat plants of almost any size, from grass up to trees. In fact they will eat just about any kind of vegetation - I find it hard to believe that this elephant didn’t like green bananas

9 minutes ago, AlQaholic said:

Yeah, and so should Horses, Cows, Dogs and cats....just to mention a few.....Remember Elephants was the work horse of Asia just as Horses was the work horse of the west, then both became attractions and horses are made to race and jump over silly obstacles, unfortunately there are no such avenues of activity for the Elephants....

Just wonder how many people get kicked by Horses every year? Anyway when an Elephant gets mad the damage is considerably more....

A profoundly uninformed reply.

Elephants are NOT domesticated animals and you don't seem to have even the most basic grasp of domestication/use and abuses of animals.

in reality the laws in Europe and US that cover the treatment of cattle - even those destined for the abbatoir are FAR more strict than any laws in Thailand that cover the treatment of Elephants and other captive animals.

you attempt to draw parallels with domesticated animals just underlines how little you understand of the issues involved

3 minutes ago, Yann55 said:

 

You are most probably right. From what I've read, elephants and mahouts have a very strong bond and if the elephant feels that his mahout is angry at someone he probably reacts to that, more than to what the woman actually did.

Some of the comments on this thread are so incredibly dumb that they make me angry, but one thing they show for show, when it comes to stupidity, humans are the absolute champions.

Elephants are used by humans for all kinds of purposes which all boil down to one purpose only : making money. These remarkable creatures are enslaved by our 'intelligence', which is enslaved by greed.

To call an elephant 'stupid' shows such an absolute lack of understanding of the animal reign that one wonders why God 'if he exists) ever gave us our special brain, considering what we're making of it.

"elephants and mahouts have a very strong bond and if the elephant feels that his mahout is angry at someone he probably reacts to that" - sorry but in most cases in Thailand, that is absolute nonsense. The elephants are rented out by the day to men who for one reason or another have some experience in handling elephants - normally limited to a few bits of folklore and a large metal hook.

the old concept of a mahout living/working with the same elephant for a lifetime is now largely a myth.

These guys in charge of elephants are uneducated and untrained - they pick up a few "techniques" that work along the way, very little is actually learned about the animals in their care, they are jusat interested in getting as many customers as they can.

"

The mahout Urai Salangam, 43, told reporters that it was not good to feed elephants raw bananas. He was backed up by the owner of the elephant who said that his employee was an experienced mahout who knew exactly how to handle elephants."

whether or not there is any scientific proof behind this apparently bizarre excuse, the incident just further demonstrates the deplorable lack of control over the use of wild/captive animals in public in Thailand.

This situation should never have occurred - it is quite likely that if the mahout became agitated with the woman the elephant might have become fearful and aggressive.

The whole incident suggests that these people should to be exhibiting elephants to the public and one has to wonder at the validity of their "excuses".

18 hours ago, mikosan said:

That's exactly what I'm saying, maybe you should try reading!

i read this...

" In any country in the world, if you smash into the back of a vehicle in front of you IT'S YOUR FAULT. End of story" - total nonsense.

1 hour ago, mikosan said:

There are many places you can look to find out that this is not a myth, try this for starters

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rear-end_collision

 

But as you're from Australia you could also try this

https://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080503194213AAj9RTB

 

Actually, try and find somewhere that doesn't say that generally you are at fault.

 

So, no myth mate, check your facts before you write rubbish.

You are just emphasising your lack of knowledge on the matter.

learn to read -  "the driver of the car that rear-ends the other car is almost always considered to be at fault due to not leaving enough stopping distance or lack of attention."

22 minutes ago, mikosan said:

We seem to have forgotten the main topic of this post. The taxi driver smashed into the back of the truck, for god's sake. How the truck happened to be there and what happened to raise or not raise it's back end, hydraulics of whatever else, is completely irrelevant. In any country in the world, if you smash into the back of a vehicle in front of you IT'S YOUR FAULT. End of story, the taxi driver was incompetent and it's down to him.

That is just another motoring myth promulgated by those who know no better.

5 hours ago, jackspratt498 said:

"As he approached the scene there was a lot of dust and he could not see anything..."

 

So, at this point of course he stops right?

 

Because, if you're driving a minivan with a bunch of people, of course you're not going to just keep driving forward right?

 

Because you can't see what's in front of you and that's really, reeeaallly important right?

 

If you can't outright stop you're going to slow waaay down as safely and as quickly as possible because, what's causing all that dust right?

 

Right?

 

Ahh <deleted> it! Just keep going.

 

So back to the story where of course " ...he smacked into the back of the truck."

 

 

 

 

 

It's nice to see what superb drivers some TV members are as they assert their superiority over Thai people based on a 4 line translated post from the local press....hard to imagine what it's like to be such a perfect driver..........

Why do people still fall for referendums - they are not a tool of democracy, they are a tool of autocracies. They are simply a "no lose" way of giving governments a facade of democracy.