Ajahnski

Something not right here...

Three people not wearing helmets on the other bike with no lights on are involved in an accident with this single bloke, and he is the one facing charges?

Either the frenchies are being extremely litigious or this bloke isn't telling us something. The charges against him, though in Thai, should have been available to him. A translation could have easily been done.

Also nothing to stop him from pressing charges against the french if he is so in the right.

Not saying this guy didn't have a bad experience in jail, but something smells fishy about the story.

I agree that there are some key facts missing here. Based on my interactions with Thai officials, I'm inclined to believe he's being set up. I've even been extorted and threatened by teachers and school admin here, though, so I might be too inclined to think the worst of all Thai officials.

Unfortunately for those incarcerated in the jails and the prison system here in Thailand they are subjected to some truly crude and rude conditions.

While most of the people agree that a prison incarceration should be one that makes the prisoner suffer for their crimes the end result of that collective mentality results in an abundance of real life horror stories to be told and considered....truth be told.

The prison system in any country is a measure of the countries collective mentality concerning law and order while Thailand is still somewhat in the dark ages concerning how they deal with convicted criminals and how they are addressed and how they are treated while incarcerated.

There are numerous countries with even worse prison conditions while hell does exist if you are incarcerated in those prison in those countries.

Here in Thailand the conditions are Bad but not the worst of worst if you compare them to the known conditions suffered by all to many people languishing in dismal prison conditions throughout the world.

Meantime the Thai prison system has to be improved a whole lot while the prison system here in Thailand is never seen as an important issue needing to be addressed while the allotted budget for prisons and correctional facilities is dismally small as compared to the amount of people being arrested and prosecuted and finally incarcerated.

Each successive government has always talked tough on crime and the need to crack down on crime but they seldom if ever address the other half of the equation relevant to how they are going to handle and contain all the criminals and law breakers that are going to be incarcerated as part of their increased law enforcement activities.

There has never been a plan to deal with all the people that will or could be imprisoned resulting in some notably miserable conditions suffered by all to many that are not hard core criminals while their only crime was smoking some marijuana or some minor criminal activity that they were involved with.

The Thai government at present and all the governments before have never had a well thought out plan concerning how to deal with those that are convicted and imprisoned.....and I do not think they ever will as their collective attitude and collective mentality is one of no one really cares and no one wants to speak out on the issue let alone actually address that issue....that is until they are incarcerated themselves and find they have no voice at all while no one to speak on their behalf and no one addressing the problems associated with over crowded prisons with hellish like conditions suffered by all too many and more so by many others.

You all just hope you never suffer the Thai prison system regardless of your thoughts or opinions about law enforcement and how criminals should be handled because, like the man in the OP, that could be you behind prison bars one day.

Cheers

Thank you for a breath of sanity!

I have only one very slight quibble -- When does any Thai think through the consequences of their grand schemes?

I think this account holds some truth to it. In prison, inmates run what happens inside and guards only watch and, as in this case, the guards perhaps are as evil as the inmates.. What bother me so about this is that this guy is probably in jail just because he is a foreigner. I have read so many instances where death has occurred due to negligent driving yet, the Thai never seems to go to prison for it. A good example is this recent case where the guy drove 200 kph and crashed into the back of a car killing to students. I don't see him even looking at a charge for their deaths, only his bad driving. Pathetic to see double standards across the board with foreigners and Thai.

The difference between the two cases is that the Merc. driver had money and paid his way out (or at least his insurance company did), the Brit doesn't seem to be able to raise 100k Baht and apparently didn't have insurance otherwise he would have been able to post a bail bond.

Have you ever heard the saying 'two wrongs don't make a right' This guy killed someone, are you saying he doesn't deserve to be punished because a Thai person would have gotten away with it ?

Also are we expected to believe most inmates in Thai jails an non Thai.

Don't put words into my mouth.. My comment has nothing to do with 2 wrongs making it right. My comment was simply how unfair it is that here you have a case where a foreigner is being charged for the death from an accident, yet a Thai is not.. Simple as that. Double standards.

"This guy killed someone" - wow! That's a huge conclusion to jump to. In the original story, it says that there were 3 adults on the other bike with no lights and no helmets. At what point does one stop being a victim and become a volunteer? In a civilized country, the police would have just told the Frenchman that he was in the wrong and ended it there.

as others said, there seem to be more to this case than indicated

on one hand he says that he does not know what he did wrong and on the other hand he says they tried to force him to sign a confession.

I would submit the confession they tried to get him to sign should give him an indication of what they think he did wrong.

Or, just as in Koh Tao, the police knew someone with money wanted this wrapped up quickly. I've dealt with Thai police as a victim, and it takes a lot to get them off their lazy asses. If you do get them to move, they want to be finished as easily as possible. My bet was that the prison treatment was initially supposed to be a way to soften him up so that he'd sign a confession in exchange for more lenient treatment.

Section 4 also states that:

“Laws related to licensing” means all laws with the provisions that require the granting of license prior to do any activity or business;

and someone might also say that a permission to stay, as defined under the Immigration Act, is not a license as defined in the Licensing facilitation Act but I guess, until there is some official opinion, I'll have to wait until my local Immigration Office does something silly which so far in the last almost 10 years I have been going there they have not.

You bring up a good point. Here's a more detailed analysis.

Section 3. This Act applies to the granting of all permissions or licensing as well as all registrations or notifications in which the application for those are required by laws or rules prior to do any activity. All laws or rules which are contrary to, or inconsistent with, this Act shall be repealed and replaced by this Act. [emphasis added]

Section 4. In this Act: “License” means an authorization to be made by the official to any person prior to do any activity as prescribed by laws, including the granting of license or permission, the registration, the acceptance of notification and the issuance of a certificate of lease or concession;

It’s suggested that “… a permission to stay, as defined under the Immigration Act, is not a license . . . “

You bring up a good point. I thought about addressing this in the original article more thoroughly, but I didn’t want to get lost in details. Also, the only arguments for that proposition are really bad, if not outright stupid. (I’m NOT saying that you’re stupid for bringing them up! You were smart to recognize the types of arguments we may encounter.)

So, let’s look at this by section. In sect 4, it specifically includes the acceptance of a notification. Period. Case closed.

“But,” the official may say, “it must be prior to do any activity, and you haven’t done anything yet.” Of course not, because prior means before, and I am registering before continuing my stay in the kingdom. The activity in question is living, and, if living is done by a foreigner within the kingdom, then they must submit this notice. “Oh,” says the official, “but you should have submitted this before coming to stay in the Kingdom.” That is pure nonsense: the form clearly says for “continuing to stay in the kingdom,” not “coming to stay in the kingdom.”

“Oh,” says the official, “but you don’t understand Thai culture.” It’s at this point that you either present your hands to be cuffed, like I did, or just ask them how much tea money they are going to extort from you.

Now, on to sect 3 of the law. We’ve looked at the “prior to do any activity” portion of that phrase. The extra part in sect 3 is “required by laws or rules.” “Oh,” says the official, “but the 90 day notice isn’t required – we won’t throw you in jail if you don’t submit it.” Nope. There are still fines, and, if you refuse to pay the fines, you may be arrested and deported. So, yes, it is required.

Further, that argument sill ignores the fact that sect 3 is an override provision. The purpose of sect 3 is to expand the law to cover portions of the law that might arguably not be covered. This section of the law is to expand the law, not to retract it.

Sorry if this portion feels like you have wasted your time with minutiae and silly straw man arguments. Writing this feels like I’m kicking a dead horse, but, having dealt with Thai immigration more than I ever care to, this was a good thing to include.

Are the electronic copies of the "licensing manual" for the various immigration functions available online, as required under the Act? To say the least, they would make extremely interesting reading.

Great question! I used what was posted here before I went to Satun, since TVF has better information than the gov't websites.

I just looked online, and am not finding anything. I sent an email to an immigration atty to see if he knows where to find them electronically. If they aren't available yet, then we probably have to rely on the old gov't websites.

However, this law still means that they aren't allowed to magically create new rules or require anything more than is posted online currently. If they aren't available online, then this law makes that the fault of immigration and doesn't allow them to demand extra papers.

So is the granting of an extension of stay and other provisions to be executed by the Bureau of Immigration as regards a non-Thai's continued stay in the Kingdom now considered to be a 'License' as defined in Section 4 of the Act?

In short, YES. Sect. 4 specifically includes registrations and notifications, and in sect. 3 it overrules any other law that does not conform to this law. This law is potentially quite powerful for dealing with corruption and incompetence.

(I explain it in more detail in the blog article. Please let me know if the article is not clear or too technical. I can go back and revise it.)

Very interesting. I would say standing up for your rights in this way is a pretty high-risk strategy. Thailand is not renowned for always following the letter of the law. However, it is certainly a good tool to consider using against lazy officials who do not do their jobs.

Thank you. I agree - it was risky. That's where this law is so helpful. In law, we often distinguish between substantive law (what is right or wrong) versus procedural law (how you apply and administer the law matters too). This law covers procedures so that it's much more difficult for corrupt officials to change the way they administer the law. That makes it more difficult to collect tea money.

Because this law basically says that gov't officers must follow the letter of the law, it puts a restraint on them. I think that this only works if we know that this law exists. When I quoted this law to the officer in Satun, she was visibly surprised*. My guess is that she realized I was armed and ready to rumble, if needed. I don't know all the aspects of anti-corruption law here, but I think that this law is supposed to work in coordination with some of the other anti-corruption laws. She didn't want to find out what I knew, especially after I presented my hands and invited her to arrest me. How much loss of face would it have been if they did arrest me, and then I used that law to (1) exonerate myself, and (2) then come back to file complaints against them? It just wasn't worth the effort or the risk, especially since Bangkok is making anti-corruption noises right now.

Of course, my sincere willingness to let them arrest me instead of giving in to the other office's incompetence probably made a huge difference.

Although the interrogations are inevitably stressful, I am not sure you need to change what you are doing. A little bit of aggravation and five minutes extra to enter the country is not the end of the world. I do not see they have any justification under Section 12 of the Immigration law to deny you entry (whether they would like to or not).

Also, the Licensing Facilitation Act that recently went into effect puts strict limits on their discretion. They are required to have all the documents that they may require posted in an agency manual that is also available online. They are not allowed to ask for more, and may not deny you for any reason outside of what is required by their manuals.

Also, though it doesn't specifically say so, the way the law is written clearly envisions government officers in an assisting role instead of an adversarial one. (TBS, I also know it will take time to change the culture of corruption here.)

Good faith is not an excuse.

No, but the law does consider it a prerequisite with transactions.

I have no doubt honest mistakes cause some people to overstay sometimes...but unfortunately we always have people "who play the honest mistake game (that is, they clearly understand they are overstaying)." How does and will immigration distinguish between such people?

I expect it's going to be treated along the same lines as "ignorance of law excuses no one" which is a legal principle that a person who is unaware of a law may not escape liability for violating that law merely because he or she was unaware of its content.

I would feel inclined to agree that ignorance of the law is no excuse if gov't officers actually respected their country's laws. It's difficult enough to follow the written law sometimes. I went through law school and still have difficulties understanding the way certain parts of the law are written (translated.)

Changing rules every other month depending on the whims of officers at a particular checkpoint or immigration office only serves to destroy the law. How can we be expected to know the whims of these people?

Thank goodness that there are folks here on TV who have enough experience that they can tell us how the law is ACTUALLY applied.

I don't see how you can misread an entry stamp, you know before entering how long you will be given 15,30,60,90 or a 1 year stamp.

its not a pick any stamp up and put it in the passport, yes the immigration officer can make a mistake,but all stamps should be checked at the time.

Surely before planing a trip to Thailand you work out how many days you are staying, have the correct visa and travel insurance, and a plan on re-entries etc.

A long term 1 year extension may be forgotten, but again its just bad planing, and not putting that renewal date in a diary, phone, computer.

Lots of people don't realize the date is on the stamp and do their own calculation on their head (30 days) and are off by 1 day (which is probably why they don't fine for one day) [i.e. 30 days means 30 nights -- when it actually only means 29 nights]

This. When I first came to Thailand - I came from China, where the 30 day period on your visa starts the day after you enter the country, whereas in Thailand it starts on day of entry. So, I was exactly 1 day over when I left Thailand to move to Cambodia. I paid the fine, said sorry and haven't done it again. I find it hard to fathom missing a visa date by a month but a day is pretty easy to do.

In the States, we switch our month and date around. So, March 4, 2016 is 3-4-2016 for us, but 4-3-2016 here. I can see you someone would get it mixed up. I have nearly made that mistake a few times.

What about the man (or woman),on the street ,will they also get

10 years forced holiday,if they criticize it ?,or is it just a way to

put all politicians in the nick,and thereby clean up Thai politics.

regards Worgeordie

My guess it that the junta expects the Thai kowtow culture to deal with it. If we lock up your leaders b/c they don't kowtow to us, then we are the only one's left to kowtow to.

Clearly, the Thai Voter will not be allowed to "Change things".

If at all, "changes" will possibly be made by a number younger, more worldly oriented Colonels that have reached the conclusion, that leading Thailand back into the 18th century can not possibly be the future of this country.

Cheers.

How sad is it that the best hope for this country is now that another military coup rises up to overthrow this idiotic military coup?

SMH

Too bad they didn't start the green card process (i.e., permanent resident process) much earlier or get married much earlier, but sometimes you never know what life will throw at you (like a serious illness) or we don't hear the whole story. Apparently they moved to the U.S. before starting the green card application process or being married...basically the mother just had some kind of short term visa or maybe a fiancee/K-1 visa. So, so many people in similar type situations. Hope they figure out some way to allow the mother to stay and get a green card and allow this military veteran to RIP.

I can't speak to this situation, but I know many people are now going the fiancee route b/c it's several months faster than the spousal visa route. I haven't registered my marriage here in Thailand specifically so that I can bring my wife through the faster fiancee route when that day comes.

so what if she is not there legally then send her back, Thailand deported around 300 thousand illegals last year, no sob stories listened to there

She is there legally, but only temporarily. However, using Thailand's behavior as justification for any other nation's behavior is silly. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Goodness me.

It seems that the choice is

A/ delay the constitution if the referendum is not successful until the public vote oyes on it thus delaying elections on the promised date. Of course some will whinge and state "told you say, can't trust Prayut" and "typical of this govt and is of no surprise"

B/ If not voted in don't delay the process and pass a constitution used on previous ones thus ensuring elections are held on the promised date. Of course some will state "Come on junta lovers, spin this one!"

When the referendum is held and if it is a no vote then both will result in people blaming the Junta for something.

If it is a yes vote the comments will be "rigged results"

Poor Prayut can't win if he does and can't win if he doesn't. Just keep moving forward Prayut. No matter what you do the usual suspects will complain.

I really tried to give Prayut the benefit of the doubt when he took over. However, stupid comments like 'democracy doesn't mean the same thing everywhere;' calling in people for 'attitude adjustment'; and putting forth draft constitutions that ignore civil rights have all shown that he has more interest in keeping power than in returning Thailand to democracy.

This doesn't even get into the childish way he interacts with the press.

He's lost the benefit of the doubt. He has EARNED every bit of criticism he gets.

500 bht was posted here on Thaivisa.

Link please.

Just a guess: he may think a border hop at Ranong is an extension.

That may have been. Also, I was running around like a chicken with its head cut off between the new baby coming 3 weeks early and making sure all my other papers were sorted. Of all the papers I needed to have sorted and copied, the one's with the king's picture were the least of my worries. Probably my mistake. I plead Nolo contendere (no contest) on that.

Thanks all for your advice. I took my toddler with me, and things went nearly smoothly.

The local immigration refused to accept my 90 registration by mail, but never notified me as required by the Licensing

Facilitation Act. (They called a teacher at my school to pass me a message*, but only said they would not accept ANY registration by mail.)

I quoted the law to the officers at the Satun office.

Them: Why you didn't just go in to see them?

Me: Why can't they do their job and send me written notification of their denial as required by Thai law?

Them: How can they mail you?

Me: One, they have my address on the 90 day registration form, and, two, they have an entire file on me from the last two years. Should I just start going to the Kantang office and do their job for them?

At this point, I told the officer that I refused to pay the late fine, gave my daughter to my sis-in-law, and presented my hands, saying "Go ahead, arrest me, but I refuse to pay a fine because a government officer is too lazy to do their job."

Then, sis-in-law hands her phone to immigration to speak with my wife, who told her of just a few of the previous extortion attempts and other misdeeds by the Kantang office.

They approved my stay, but charged me 1,900 bht instead of a 500 bht extension. Since I went from non-O to non-B, I guess that's legit.

Yes, I probably lost a little face, and was probably too blunt. I did try to play it cool, but I just have no f**ks left to give about Thai Immigration. The Satun officer did tell my wife that she was waiving the fine because she could tell that I was being sincere about the misdeeds of the local clown posse that passes for immigration in our province.

Anyway, thanks everyone for your advice. Maybe I should start a post on the Licensing Facilitation Act? The officer really listened when I told her what the law said.

*What's next, will they give a note saying "Will you be my friend? Circle one: Yes NO"

Wow you have certainly read the book on "how to win friends and influence people!

Which 500 Bht extension are you talking about ?

ALL extensions cost 1900 Bht.

500 bht was posted here on Thaivisa.

Thanks all for your advice. I took my toddler with me, and things went nearly smoothly.

The local immigration refused to accept my 90 registration by mail, but never notified me as required by the Licensing
Facilitation Act. (They called a teacher at my school to pass me a message*, but only said they would not accept ANY registration by mail.)

I quoted the law to the officers at the Satun office.

Them: Why you didn't just go in to see them?

Me: Why can't they do their job and send me written notification of their denial as required by Thai law?

Them: How can they mail you?

Me: One, they have my address on the 90 day registration form, and, two, they have an entire file on me from the last two years. Should I just start going to the Kantang office and do their job for them?

At this point, I told the officer that I refused to pay the late fine, gave my daughter to my sis-in-law, and presented my hands, saying "Go ahead, arrest me, but I refuse to pay a fine because a government officer is too lazy to do their job."

Then, sis-in-law hands her phone to immigration to speak with my wife, who told her of just a few of the previous extortion attempts and other misdeeds by the Kantang office.

They approved my stay, but charged me 1,900 bht instead of a 500 bht extension. Since I went from non-O to non-B, I guess that's legit.

Yes, I probably lost a little face, and was probably too blunt. I did try to play it cool, but I just have no f**ks left to give about Thai Immigration. The Satun officer did tell my wife that she was waiving the fine because she could tell that I was being sincere about the misdeeds of the local clown posse that passes for immigration in our province.

Anyway, thanks everyone for your advice. Maybe I should start a post on the Licensing Facilitation Act? The officer really listened when I told her what the law said.

*What's next, will they give a note saying "Will you be my friend? Circle one: Yes NO"

As said obtain a medical certificate from doctor for wife indicating she can not travel - expect that would be accepted. Have her ID card and copy of marriage certificate and use TM.7 (with 4x6cm photo) to apply for 60 day extension. Perhaps take child with you to show why you can not currently leave and soften any hard feelings.

Thanks!

Taking the toddler is a great idea. She does like to travel.

If your wife is Thai you could apply for a 60 day extension to visit her. Normally they would want her to be with you when you apply but if you had something to prove she is in the hospital they would probably waive that.

You can only apply for the extension at the designated office for where you are living. You will also need proof of residence.

There is border crossing in Satun you could go to instead of Sadao.

Thanks UbonJoe!

You are a wealth of information, and a saint for putting up with all the corruption here.

I won't go back to Kantang office. They are thoroughly corrupt, and a big reason why I'm leaving Thailand to work elsewhere. I'll try my luck with Satun. I know several locals who go there, even this year during the crackdown, and haven't had a problem.

If that doesn't work and I have to do a border hop, I will need documentation of transport out of the country in 30 days, right?

Looking for suggestions as to best option.

I've been working on Non-B visas for the last couple years to stay here with my wife. My current visa expires tomorrow.

My wife was due with the second baby in 2 weeks, but the new one came out about 2 am today. She's recovering form a c-section, and we have a little one at home. I really can't do a border run right now.

A couple years ago, I got a non-O extension at a local immigration office for 90 days. I am currently looking for a job out of Thailand. Our local immigration office is thoroughly corrupt, and, since I called them on their corruption, they have targeted both schools that I've worked at for the last 2 years.

Here are the options:

1) Request a non-O for 90 days at Satun immigration office. If they deny me, then I will go to Sadao and do a border hop.
(If I do the border hop, I will need documentation of transport arrangements out of the country at the end of 30 days, right?)

2) Just go to Sadao and do a border hop.

I've heard that Satun immigration are decent human beings, in contrast to the extortioners in our local office.

Thanks in advance.

Hmmmm, well a safe railway ain't been sorted, kids driving motorised vehicles ain't been sorted, Gov offices doing different stuff ain't been sorted, bars run/worked by farangs with no WP ain't been sorted, so why should computer security be sorted..

Considering how often there are major breaches of government (including the US State Dept and National Security Agency), banking, credit card etc. computers around the world, computer security isn't all that great anywhere. Just ask Edward Snowden.

Yes, but at least those agencies attempt to keep data secure. Also, there is a big difference between those US agencies that get literally thousands of attacks per day and this site that was never attacked because everything was left in the open!

For the prior comment, two wrongs don't make a right. Just because they can't figure anything else out is no excuse to have opened this huge security breach. It is, however, good evidence that this entire place is so screwed up that the entire slate needs to be wiped and start over.