Bleacher Bum East

I would actually be surprised if the FBI provided DNA testing assistance in this case.

Not because they aren't willing to help in a criminal investigation in another country ...

But because there is a very important concept in criminal investigations and prosecutions called "Chain of Custody" or "Chain of Evidence".

This means that if the police cannot verify exactly what has happened to the evidence from the time it was discovered to the time it was tested, and later to the time it is presented at trial, it is considered unreliable and cannot be used as evidence in court.

It goes without saying that in this case, the chain of custody of any and all evidence would be highly suspect by U.S. standards.

So I don't think the FBI will put themselves in a position of verifying or lending credibility to any evidence that they cannot confirm 100% meets these standards ... i.e. none of the evidence collected from a trampled crime scene and collected and handled by who knows how many semi-qualified or unqualified investigators.

As with all of this, we'll have to wait and see what happens.

http://ovc.ncjrs.gov/sartkit/develop/issues-coc.html

I would actually be surprised if the FBI provided DNA testing assistance in this case.

Not because they aren't willing to help in a criminal investigation in another country ...

But because there is a very important concept in criminal investigations and prosecutions called "Chain of Custody" or "Chain of Evidence".

This means that if the police cannot verify exactly what has happened to the evidence from the time it was discovered to the time it was tested, and later to the time it is presented at trial, it is considered unreliable and cannot be used as evidence in court.

It goes without saying that in this case, the chain of custody of any and all evidence would be highly suspect by U.S. standards.

So I don't think the FBI will put themselves in a position of verifying or lending credibility to any evidence that they cannot confirm 100% meets these standards ... i.e. none of the evidence collected from a trampled crime scene and collected and handled by who knows how many semi-qualified or unqualified investigators.

As with all of this, we'll have to wait and see what happens.

http://ovc.ncjrs.gov/sartkit/develop/issues-coc.html

I would actually be surprised if the FBI provided DNA testing assistance in this case.

Not because they aren't willing to help in a criminal investigation in another country ...

But because there is a very important concept in criminal investigations and prosecutions called "Chain of Custody" or "Chain of Evidence".

This means that if the police cannot verify exactly what has happened to the evidence from the time it was discovered to the time it was tested, and later to the time it is presented at trial, it is considered unreliable and cannot be used as evidence in court.

It goes without saying that in this case, the chain of custody of any and all evidence would be highly suspect by U.S. standards.

So I don't think the FBI will put themselves in a position of verifying or lending credibility to any evidence that they cannot confirm 100% meets these standards ... i.e. none of the evidence collected from a trampled crime scene and collected and handled by who knows how many semi-qualified or unqualified investigators.

As with all of this, we'll have to wait and see what happens.

http://ovc.ncjrs.gov/sartkit/develop/issues-coc.html

Why aren't the powerful local families offering up millions in reward money? 50,000 Baht is an insult.

Why should they? Would you?

Maybe you should read a little about Koh Tao. A collection of families making enormous sums of money from tourism. Now your little island paradise is the subject of terrible news around the world. So aside from the fact that it's the right thing to do, would I pony up a large reward to protect my interests? Yes.

Mojorison . . . Although we disagree on some aspects of what may or may not be happening on Kho Tao right now, you seem to have some knowledge that contributes to the debate--which is a worthwhile discussion of Thailand culture, farangs in Thailand, etc. despite the fact that we are all speculating regarding the murder at this point.

But you should at least be consistent in your arguments.

On another thread you said this:

"The local owners, whilst capable of doing bad things and getting away with "murder"... this is not the type of crime that we are talking about. They generally don't hang out in their own bars getting high and bludgeoning and raping customers. I know these people, the bar and resort owners, and they are far removed from the slime that work in their bars and resorts. Regarding getting away with crime, this is exactly the kind of case where justice will need to have been seen.... from a local and international standpoint."

The strong implication I take from these statements is that you believe the local land and business owners do really want the culprit caught, even if the murderer(s) are Thai.

If this is true, then of course the local business and landowners should be interested in putting up a substantial reward, because they as you say have a lot to gain (rather than to lose, as I believe--assuming the murderer is Thai) from the killer's capture.

And no, it is not the sole domain of the state to post a reward. It is very common for someone close to a victim or with a vested interest to put up a reward.

All reported 'evidence' has led police to the admission that the murders were carried out by possibly a group of men. If they were locals, the grapevine would have helped them round up the suspects. It is also not in the interest of the locals to destroy income and a reasonable life-style, by 'hiding' the perps. So I find the premise that Koh Tao locals were involved is unlikely.

On that assumption, and according to the report, other islands are being investigated on the premise that groups come over to join in the all-night party and leave on the first boat back. Not uncommon - but in this instance it all ended tragically for whatever reason that sparked off the violence. And if that is the reality, the Koh Tao elite would ensure that their police are given as much 'evidence' without incriminating themselves for reprisals.

If there is a plus in this investigation it would be far more difficult to 'hide' several perps from talkative tongues than one guy, which leads me to conclude that a police result will occur.

While I may be way off the mark, I sincerely hope that these murderers are caught and punished asap.

Interesting thoughts Stephen, but your logic in regarding the locals is a little flawed. Those belonging to well connected, HiSo, elite, local power families have a habit of getting away with murder, literally. Many have managed to avoid charges of murder or manslaughter whilst those convicted have received incredibly lenient sentences. This includes Thai on Thai where the desire to catch and punish is higher, and includes the killing of and by RTP members. There are plenty of examples you can research easily. In some cases you will see there were very definite attempts not to progress inquiries in some directions or soften the charges.

For this reason, I disagree with your proposition that it is unlikely that locals are involved.

It could just as easily have been tourists on the island or those just coming for the party, as you say; or migrant workers. The fact is no one group should be ruled out but the police seem to be ignoring the local community. Perhaps they agree with your proposition.

I met a very influential long time good Thai friend yesterday. She said senior police she knows told her that it was definitely foreigners who were responsible, and again made reference to the low morals and bad behavior generally expected of and associated with foreigners. An interesting mind set, and far from open.

I agree with Baerboxer.

Stephen I think it is not so much that your logic is flawed, because we would expect most people to think as you described. But in Thailand many people don't think that way, especially those in power of whatever form. In their minds, revealing the perpetrators as one of their own would do much more damage (not just economic--in fact, primarily non-economic) than an unsolved murder. First of all, face is everything here . . . and everybody on the island loses faces in the most extreme fashion if this is one of their own. Second, as Baerboxer points out, people up the hierarchy are almost always protected--and if one is not protected now, then the others worry they will not be in the future as well. And third, revealing who did this could set off another round of retribution that could end with more "intra-island" murders of the same heinousness.

So in my opinion, the fact that nobody has come forward publicly with any information about what happened in the bar actually indicates that someone is being protected, and word on the island is don't get involved.

Again, it could be a local, a farang, a migrant worker, a fisherman, or someone from another island ... but the nature of the crime and everything that has happened afterward in my mind puts a local as the most likely. Who knows, maybe the local "godfathers" on KhoTao will handle it with a local form of justice for all the damage already caused.

PS On the economic front, if this does turn out to be a local, it may give the military an excuse to basically come in and "take over" Kho Tao, in which case all the local hotel and restaurant and other "business owners" would lose out, They may be worried about this as well. And it may happen in any event.

Think you're reading this wrong. The local owners, whilst capable of doing bad things and getting away with "murder"... this is not the type of crime that we are talking about. They generally don't hang out in their own bars getting high and bludgeoning and raping customers. I know these people, the bar and resort owners, and they are far removed from the slime that work in their bars and resorts. Regarding getting away with crime, this is exactly the kind of case where justice will need to have been seen.... from a local and international standpoint. Your logic is flawed if you believe that a local persons death carries more weight than that of a tourist... that is plain wrong, in fact it is the opposite. And regarding your friend in "high places" they obviously have not ever been abroad, so I question there "high status"... she is a twerp. Time will tell, but I am not expecting any surprises. FWIW a key member of the Democrats is the son-in-law of the "legal rights holders" of the full moon party on Koh Phangan. He was also Suthep's right hand man in the south, before Suthep entered the priesthood.

On my end:

I agree that in this case the death of a tourist carries more weight than an average local. If it had been a local who was not prominent in some form, then the spotlight would not be shining near as brightly, if at all, on the island community or the police or the country.

I also agree that it was probably not one of the local big-shots who committed the crime. As you say, they wouldn't often be hanging out in their own bars and wouldn't get their hands dirty on this way. If they wanted it done, they'd have somebody do it for them.

But it could have been a local Thai who either worked for a big-shot or was connected to one in some way, by blood or friendship or otherwise. For example, someone who was a lower level "manager" of one of the island mafia's various enterprises, or even lower than that. In that case, I personally believe that everything I said in my last reply would likely hold true. (And this may be the case even if it was an unconnected Thai national simply living and working on the island for one of the hotels or bars--this for the reasons I said in my last reply as well).

You sound like you're speaking with first-hand knowledge of the islands, and I am not. My first-hand knowledge is only from a dozen years in Thailand and having gotten around quite a bit in that time. We'll see how it plays out. I hope you are right, because then it would be more likely the killer is exposed and brought to public justice.

All reported 'evidence' has led police to the admission that the murders were carried out by possibly a group of men. If they were locals, the grapevine would have helped them round up the suspects. It is also not in the interest of the locals to destroy income and a reasonable life-style, by 'hiding' the perps. So I find the premise that Koh Tao locals were involved is unlikely.

On that assumption, and according to the report, other islands are being investigated on the premise that groups come over to join in the all-night party and leave on the first boat back. Not uncommon - but in this instance it all ended tragically for whatever reason that sparked off the violence. And if that is the reality, the Koh Tao elite would ensure that their police are given as much 'evidence' without incriminating themselves for reprisals.

If there is a plus in this investigation it would be far more difficult to 'hide' several perps from talkative tongues than one guy, which leads me to conclude that a police result will occur.

While I may be way off the mark, I sincerely hope that these murderers are caught and punished asap.

Interesting thoughts Stephen, but your logic in regarding the locals is a little flawed. Those belonging to well connected, HiSo, elite, local power families have a habit of getting away with murder, literally. Many have managed to avoid charges of murder or manslaughter whilst those convicted have received incredibly lenient sentences. This includes Thai on Thai where the desire to catch and punish is higher, and includes the killing of and by RTP members. There are plenty of examples you can research easily. In some cases you will see there were very definite attempts not to progress inquiries in some directions or soften the charges.

For this reason, I disagree with your proposition that it is unlikely that locals are involved.

It could just as easily have been tourists on the island or those just coming for the party, as you say; or migrant workers. The fact is no one group should be ruled out but the police seem to be ignoring the local community. Perhaps they agree with your proposition.

I met a very influential long time good Thai friend yesterday. She said senior police she knows told her that it was definitely foreigners who were responsible, and again made reference to the low morals and bad behavior generally expected of and associated with foreigners. An interesting mind set, and far from open.

I agree with Baerboxer.

Stephen I think it is not so much that your logic is flawed, because we would expect most people to think as you described. But in Thailand many people don't think that way, especially those in power of whatever form. In their minds, revealing the perpetrators as one of their own would do much more damage (not just economic--in fact, primarily non-economic) than an unsolved murder. First of all, face is everything here . . . and everybody on the island loses faces in the most extreme fashion if this is one of their own. Second, as Baerboxer points out, people up the hierarchy are almost always protected--and if one is not protected now, then the others worry they will not be in the future as well. And third, revealing who did this could set off another round of retribution that could end with more "intra-island" murders of the same heinousness.

So in my opinion, the fact that nobody has come forward publicly with any information about what happened in the bar actually indicates that someone is being protected, and word on the island is don't get involved.

Again, it could be a local, a farang, a migrant worker, a fisherman, or someone from another island ... but the nature of the crime and everything that has happened afterward in my mind puts a local as the most likely. Who knows, maybe the local "godfathers" on KhoTao will handle it with a local form of justice for all the damage already caused.

PS On the economic front, if this does turn out to be a local, it may give the military an excuse to basically come in and "take over" Kho Tao, in which case all the local hotel and restaurant and other "business owners" would lose out, They may be worried about this as well. And it may happen in any event.

I keep posting it but whatever,

Somebody posted on Hannah's original Facebook stating why the where killed that night, they said that in the bar a local Thai was hitting on Hannah and Dave got in a argument with the Thai.

The Thai left and was hiding on the beach with a friend waiting for them to leave around AC bar.

Everybody I know on Koh Tao who works there left the same day because all bartenders are foreigners with no work permits, they all say this is what happened. It's sad you don't hear about this in the news.!

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Sometimes the simple explanations are the best.

However, if this is true, then all those bartenders should go and report this to the police. They have important evidence in a double murder case and a moral responsibility.

Running away like a bunch of cowardly kids because of no work permit is NOT AN OPTION.

In the worst case they would be deported back to their home country. Big deal. Two people are not going to make it back alive.

The police are looking for a double murderer.

The way I look at it is if somebody who has information goes back and tell the police they could be next to die. Think about it what if some of the Koh Tao police are covering for the killer and than the police see this person come with very valuable information and than want to knock them off the earth so they can never repeat what they know....

Why do you think the police never looked with locals and focused all on Burmese. A real cop not a corrupt cop would focus on everyone.

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I continue to agree with SirBser that this is the most likely scenario.

If a farang causes a young Thai man to lose face, especially in public, then there is a good chance that there will be some form of severe retribution. Who was right and who was wrong in the argument/altercation has absolutely no meaning. And the stakes will be significantly raised if a woman, drugs and the guy's home turf were involved. It sounds like all of the above could have happened here.

The revenge will never come in the form of a man-to-man fight. It will always come in the form of an ambush or a gang attack. This is how face is regained--by demolishing the opponent in any way possible. "Honor" as we understand it has no meaning here.

In this case, if a Thai man is made to feel publicly inferior to a farang--i.e. "you could never stand a chance with this lady, and she's with me, so piss off"--the probably drug and whisky fueled motive to get revenge by destroying the farang man and taking the lady for himself would fit right in line with what happened. As would then killing the lady who snubbed him as well. The extreme violence that occurred reflects this scenario of rage stemming from humiliation.

If you're looking for even a shred of Western logic, you won't find any. Saving face is everything. And it is done their way not ours. Sometimes this may be a beating, sometimes a house burned down, sometimes a dog gets poisoned, and sometimes there is a horrendous murder.

This is reality---if you get in an argument or fight with an angry Thai man, you will ALWAYS lose eventually. WARNING TO ALL WHO LIVE OR HOLIDAY HERE: WALK AWAY FROM THE ARGUMENT, EVEN IF YOU YOURSELF LOSE FACE!

I am not guessing ... this comes from well over a decade of experience in Thailand. I love being here for many reasons, including my many Thai friends. But to enjoy life here and be safe you need to have your eyes wide open.

Other possible scenarios remain: Jealous farang; angry locals who didn't like seeing sex on the beach; migrant worker who wanted to rob and/or rape, etc. But a slighted Thai who is now being protected is in my opinion the most likely.

Remember, this extreme face saving culture permeates society from top to bottom. If a local Thai person is convicted of this murder, then the local people on Kho Tao to the entire country of Thailand will lose face. And face trumps literally everything here. Draw your own conclusions about what is going on right now from that.

My thoughts are closer to confirmation. Another in the group that the two victims were around makes the best sense. If it's this guy or another from a newly formed group of friends, one has to wonder what snaps in the mind (drug induced or otherwise) to commit such a heinous act.

There are some varieties of date rape drugs going around Thailand that remove all inhibitions and actually leave a person upright and able to act while having absolutely no awareness of what he or she is doing while it is happening (i.e. a walking blackout where the video in your brain is turned off) ... and you have no memory of what you did afterward.

Sometimes these drugs are slipped in drinks. Sometimes they are taken voluntarily because in small amounts they can produce an ecstatic high---but if too much is ingested then either the walking blackout or comatose blackout or worse can happen.

This is another possible explanation for this murder, as well as a possible explanation for many of the jumping off the balcony "suicides" that happen in Pattaya, Bangkok and Phuket as well.

BTW if both victims were in fact raped as some reports now suggest (something I'm still very skeptical about) then a date rape drug is how this could happen without them putting up any resistance--the drug could either have knocked them out or caused them to have no idea what was happening. (I think these drugs usually take 15-30 minutes to take effect)

Personally, I would discount the advice from many that say "check yourself into a hospital" ... and this goes for the doctors who say this as well.

Oner can almost visualize some of the foreign tourists rushing towards the exits-and rightly so-however Thailand is known for the place to party and for its liberal environment with youngsters, which policy does clash with many local Buddhists etcansd muslims as well),so one may say does Thailand really need the foreign dollars that badly that it can risk corrupting its own children,which of course have been brought down to the hedonistic level of the foreigners by the forced association and the bad example the foreigners(kinnok)set ,and therefore completely ruining whatever culture was here.??Did Thailand really have a drug problem before these deadheads from the west began introducing all things evil,and now we are seeing the result.Just sayin.I have been here over ten years and I can scarcely believe how the local youth have been changed and degraded in that short period of time from what I experienced when first arriving.Cheers.

Rubbish on every level.... Asia has been well aware of every "vice" known to man for centuries.

I know this tiny island very well, my useless speculation is that the perps were laborers (hoe found at scene) from Myanmar (Burmese outnumber Thais on the island) possibly drunk and or tweeking on meth. Everyone knows everyone else so if they were able to stop the first boats out in the morning they will be found soon, if not, maybe on KP, Samui or at Chumpon border crossing...

I agree that speculation is useless for the most part, but it helps set the parameters for what the police should be looking for--and they often seem not even to consider likely scenarios. The one you have posed is a strong possibility and one they will probably first consider--that a "foreigner" is responsible i.e. a Burmese or Cambodian, or at least a transient Thai.

But I think another possible scenario should at least be considered: That the couple went off to find a secluded spot for some adventurous on the beach lovemaking, some local spotted them and--the local possibly being wild drunk or tweeked on meth as you say--took high offense and attacked them. It could have been a case of pent up local anger at "farangs" finding a drunken and heinous channel to unveil itself.

In that respect and in order to be fair, it could also have been a jealous boyfriend or girlfriend of any nationality who caught them in the act.

Before the trolls trounce: Yes, this is pure speculation. But the facts if you look at them seem to make it a likely scenario. And airing these scenarios may put pressure on police to consider them.

My deepest condolences to the families and friends of the deceased, and extreme sadness that these events seem to be more and more common in Thailand.

I've also had Dengue Fever three times, with each time being a miserable experience but one in which I was able to suffer through at home doing nothing but sleep (when possible) and drink lots of fluids.

I've read through all of the posts, and I think that you can just go back to Sheryl's first post and follow-up and that pretty much tells you all you need to know.

If your platelet count is over 140,000 then you may in fact not have Dengue Fever. And if you do have it, you are probably well out of any danger zone if you stay hydrated.

My recollection is that if you go under 100,000, the doctor may advise you to check into the hospital for observation and hydration--but it isn't absolutely necessary unless you can't care for yourself or have someone to help you. Under 50,000 is the danger zone where they highly recommend you check in. During my last bout I got near 50,000, but never checked in. Once you begin to recover it will spike up pretty quickly. Again however, this is my recollection on the numbers so you need to confirm. But it's good to do so that you don't get scared into an unnecessary and expensive hospital stay.

One thing to keep in mind ... with Dengue you often have an initial miserable period, then you feel better, and then it gets bad again. So I would keep getting your blood tested just to make sure your count hasn't improved temporarily only to drop again in the next phase.

Overall ... don't worry, if you do have it it seems like a relatively mild case ( it really can be the most miserable thing in the world to suffer through) ... you'll come out fine.

But after you feel better don't push it on the booze, late nights, etc. because your immune system will be in a weak state and it's easy to pick up other illnesses during that time. Dengue will go away in 10-14 days, but give yourself a month to recover.

No worries enjoy!

If you go to the place by Siam Electric, you might want to try the nam tok moo (grilled pork salad), tap wan (liver salad), soup nomai (bamboo shoot salad), sai yang (grilled intestines) and laab pla duk (fish laab) for some variety...all my Isaan friends that have had these dishes there like them as well as the standards som tum pu para and moo yang and tom sap and salt fish.

In the daytime, the Wichianburi chicken and som tum place near Chang Klang also has good soup nomai and tap wan, as well as good tum sua (som tum with kanom jeen noodles) and som tum with fresh uncooked crab.

BTW if you really want to go hardcore Isaan ... there's another shack restaurant down the street from Wichianburi chicken, just before the small bridge over the canal running by Kamphaengdin Road. This place as good laab dip---raw beef laab as well as som tum, etc. that many Isaan transplants like (as do I).

I think it's also worthwhile noting that if it's good pasta you're looking for, then some of the best can be found at several of the French restaurants in town.

In particular, I would recommend Chez Marco and La Terrasse.

In my opinion, Marco's is one of the best restaurants in Chiang Mai, and these days it's not any more expensive than The Dukes/Ragu.

I'll let the forum thrash out who has the better food ... While David is a friend and I like The Dukes/Ragu (I'll be eating Duke's pizza tonight), I personally could not put his comfort food in the same category with the dishes prepared by a chef like Marco (who is also a friend). But both are good (as are Giorgio's and Stefano's restaurants and Luciano's Boutique della Pasta) and both have their place in Chiang Mai's diverse and growing culinary riches.

Forgot to mention ... My friends and I had a private meal prepared by the owner of La Tavernetta and I have been to the restaurant. He'a a top-quality chef serving gourmet Italian with great ingredients, who unfortunately knows not much about running a business and whose prices are very high relative to Chiang Mai. If it's even still open, it would be an excellent food experience in a so-so atmosphere with a highly knowledgeable and approachable chef--but you need to have some serious disposable income and I'm not sure it's worth the price (hence I don't know if he's even still in business).

Based on a minimum of 5 visits (and in most cases more) to all of the following restaurants,

I would rate the Italian-owned restaurants I've visited in Chiang Mai as follows:

1. Casa Antonio and Georgio's (same Italian owner/operator, different atmospheres)

2. da Stefanos and Girasole (same Italian owner/operator, different atmospheres)

2. (a tie) Boutique della Pasta (Italian owner/chef)--some good Italian friends of mine spend a couple of months a year hear in Chiang Mai, and every time they eat Italian they eat here--they love the Italian style pizzas, I love the pastas. Probably better food than Stefanos and Girasole but better atmosphere there.

3. Why Not (Italian owner/operator)--maybe the best atmosphere and the food is normally good but can be hit or miss, and not as good as the others listed above in my opinion.
4. Arcobolena--Since the original owner (now passed away) was Italian, I still consider this Italian-owned I haven't been there for a long time, as opposed to all the others which I've visited recently, so can't really vouch for it currently.

I've heard very good things about Francesca's out Canal Road from several people. I've been three times to the Italian in Doi Saket and it is very good as well (can't remember the name).

Regarding non-Italian-owned Italian restaurants, I rate Lapin and Prego highly also--you can get very good Italian at both. Lapin the best of the two; both I think better than Why Not for food but not atmosphere.

The one I don't rate highly is Billy's--I was there recently after reading so many positive posts, and in my opinion it is nowhere near as good (I had pizza and a pasta) as the others I've listed (and it's moved to a new location on a small soi behind the old).

Now let's talk about Dukes and Ragu ... I love them both as well, but comparing David's Italian food to the other Italian restaurants I've listed is like comparing Tex Mex to real Mexican food---they're both great but not the same. No matter what the menu item at any of his restaurants, David makes and serves great American-style comfort food. I come from the same area of the U.S.A. as he does, and we both grew up eating and loving Chicago-home-style Italian food just like he offers (with some more fusion twists like the flat breads and ragus). His lasagna is just like my mother made...his smoked-chicken and pesto is just like my ex-wife made...his cannelloni with Italian sausage and riccota is just like that of my favorite home-style Italian on Ashland Avenue. Great food if you like that style as I do--and I recommend Ragu as well (other than the shopping mall atmosphere, which I hate)--but you can't make an apples to apples comparison of Ragu and the Italian-owned joints.

So the bottom line is there are many very good Italian options in Chiang Mai ... probably as many in a small radius as most any places you will find anywhere.