Been There

39 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Pfizer hasn't updated its website recently, probably because they've been busy with other things.  Here's more current information:

 

"Today, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration expanded the emergency use authorization (EUA) for the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine for the prevention of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) to include adolescents 12 through 15 years of age. The FDA amended the EUA originally issued on Dec. 11, 2020 for administration in individuals 16 years of age and older."   https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/coronavirus-covid-19-update-fda-authorizes-pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine-emergency-use

 

I have been discussing Covid vaccines in general, not Pfizer vaccines in particular.  How could you have not understood this?    When did you state you were only discussing Pfizer vaccines?    I meant that different vaccines work by different methods.  I thought that was obvious.  Nothing I have posted is in conflict with your cut and paste regarding how the Pfizer vaccine works.  I also thought it obvious that we were not limiting ourselves to Pfizer vaccines specifically.

 

You argue against claims I never made, you equate less than 100% effective with 100% effective, you can't defend your claim that all countries use the same criteria to count Covid deaths, you clearly and incorrectly stated that Covid vaccines don't use modified viruses, you refuse to acknowledge that ten month old articles regarding Covid are no longer current, you won't acknowledge that vaccines work by triggering the body's existing and well evolved defensive mechanisms, you ignore data that makes it clear than not getting vaccinated is much riskier than getting vaccinated, etc....

 

Perhaps you're correct on one point; it's futile to argue with someone like you.

I said don't reply to me .... but you have (harassment)  but seeing you have 

The Pfizer website is up to date ...  where's your proof it's not ?
Pfizer are the first manufactures to apply for full authorisation .... meaning no other vaccine has been authorised.
https://bdnews24.com/coronavirus-pandemic/2021/05/07/pfizer-and-biontech-apply-for-full-us-approval-for-covid-vaccine#:~:text=Pfizer and the German company BioNTech have become,under an emergency use authorisation granted in December.

You have been wrong with everything you claimed in your first post (just because you want something to be true, doesn't mean it is)

The Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine has not been approved or licensed by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), but has been authorized for emergency use by FDA under an Emergency Use Authorization (EUA)

1.    What are the ingredients in the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine?
The ingredients are mRNA, lipids ((4-hydroxybutyl)azanediyl)bis(hexane-6,1-diyl)bis(2-hexyldecanoate), 2 [(polyethylene glycol)-2000]-N,N-ditetradecylacetamide, 1,2-Distearoyl-sn-glycero-3-phosphocholine, and cholesterol), potassium chloride, monobasic potassium phosphate, sodium chloride, dibasic sodium phosphate dihydrate, and sucrose

2.    How does an mRNA vaccine work?
mRNA, delivered to your body's cells by lipid nanoparticles, instructs the cells to generate the spike protein found on the surface of the novel coronavirus that initiates infection.^1,2  Instructing cells to generate the spike protein spurs an immune response, including generation of antibodies specific to the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein

8.    Can your vaccine cause people to develop COVID-19?
The Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine does not contain the virus and cannot give you COVID-19.

9.    How long will clinical trial participants be followed? How do we know that bad side effects can’t happen long after vaccination, if the vaccine’s only been studied for less than a year?
Pfizer and BioNTech will track participants in our Phase 3 clinical trial for two years following their second dose, in order to document the long-term effectiveness and safety of the vaccine.

10.    Is the vaccine available for children and adolescents?
The Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine is authorized for individuals 12 years of age and older. Younger children are currently being enrolled in our clinical trial

The Facts About the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine | pfpfizeruscom

Every thing you have said is wrong ! 
You've changed direction every post 

You're accusing Pfiser of lying on there website !!!!
In short 
The vaccine hasn't got full approval
The vaccine doesn't contain   "a weakened virus, fragment of virus, or protein"
The vaccine is still in Phase 3 trials.

You have been right about nothing ! 
Never in my life have I had a discussion with someone who is wrong on every point they make.
I'll be honest I haven't read all of your last post .... I stopped when you started accusing me of saying things I never said ... that's a real sign of desperation ... I think you need some sort of psychiatric help ..... You are denying what you said 
accusing me of saying things I haven't 
accusing manufactures of lying 
Really ... you should get checked out ... maybe the lockdowns are having a worse effect than you thought. 

 

37 minutes ago, heybruce said:

No, all countries are not using the same criteria for compiling Covid deaths.  Where did you get such a nonsensical idea?  Your own link makes it clear that in the UK there is not a standard approach to counting Covid deaths.  Geez, you claim I'm uneducated and embarrassing myself... 

 

Sinovac (the Chinese vaccine; have you heard of it?) uses inactivated viruses.

 

I did not say mRNA uses weakened or dead virus cells.

 

Yes, dates matter.  Vaccines not approved ten months ago are now approved.

 

Full approval means approval for use with all age groups.  The Pfizer vaccine has been approved for selected age groups it has been tested with.

 

You are grasping at straws in a futile attempt to appear informed.

 

BTW:  In view of the fact that informed people understand that no vaccine is 100% effective, how can you claim to be informed when you posted on Friday:

 

"If the vaccine works, how would an unvaccinated person pose a risk to a one that's been vaccinated ?"  

 

What part of 95% effective do you not understand?

 

 

 

Well ... you obviously didn't read Pfizer's own website 
The Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine has not been approved or licensed by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), but has been authorized for emergency use by FDA under an Emergency Use Authorization (EUA)

The Facts About the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine | pfpfizeruscom

 How does an mRNA vaccine work?
mRNA, delivered to your body's cells by lipid nanoparticles, instructs the cells to generate the spike protein found on the surface of the novel coronavirus that initiates infection.1,2  Instructing cells to generate the spike protein spurs an immune response, including generation of antibodies specific to the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein.

A copied and paste of your earlier quote .. "Vaccines work by injecting into the body a weakened virus, fragment of virus, or protein"
which part are you saying you didn't write ? 
Now in desperation you are claiming you meant another unauthorised vaccine (Sinovac) and obviously claiming Pfiser are lying on their own website. 
Don't reply to me again ..... it's pointless ...   
 

5 hours ago, heybruce said:

The fact that you provided a video of an Illinois doctor doesn't change the fact that different states and countries, have different methods for counting Covid 19 deaths.  Statistics on excess death rates generally show that Covid deaths are under-counted, not over-counted.

 

RNA, mRNA, and proteins are all chains of amino acids.  "protein" is the general term for molecules made of amino acids.  The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines use mRNA.

 

Other vaccines use "protein subunits" and modified viruses.  You should educate yourself before accusing others of ignorance.  https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/how-they-work.html?CDC_AA_refVal=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cdc.gov%2Fcoronavirus%2F2019-ncov%2Fvaccines%2Fabout-vaccines%2Fhow-they-work.html

 

Your JAMA article is dated September 2020 and uses data from July 2020 and earlier.  As already stated, testing was made a priority and mRNA vaccines are now approved for general use.  Your source is out of date.

Behind the headlines: Counting COVID-19 deaths - Public health matters (blog.gov.uk)

Pfizer First to Seek Full Approval for Covid-19 Vaccine in U.S. (yahoo.com)

The Facts About the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine | pfpfizeruscom

All countries are using the same criteria for compiling covid deaths. 
Yes ! .... other vaccines do  use "modified viruses"  .... but not the covid vaccine!!! (You never mentioned any thing about proteins in your previous post)
The MRNA vaccines do not contain wakened or dead virus cells 
It doesn't matter what date is on the Jama article .... the MRNA vaccines have never been used on humans before in any large rollout. How can that be out of date ?
Pfiser are the first to apply for full approval (7/5/2021) it hasn't been given yet.
Like I said .... you are totally uneducated in the subject and you are now thoroughly embarrassing  yourself. I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.

2 hours ago, heybruce said:

It is widely acknowledged that "cases" not reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) are usually those so trivial the person experiencing them didn't think they were worth reporting.  Twelve hours after my second Moderna vaccination I felt a little run-down and out-of-sorts, 24 hours after the vaccination I felt fine.  I didn't bother to report that.

 

You provide a video of one doctor in one state describing how Covid deaths might be overstated early in the pandemic.  You neglect the fact that early in the pandemic people were dying of a Covid like disease with Covid symptoms but weren't counted as Covid deaths because they weren't tested for Covid.  In view of this, and the fact that every state set its own criteria for counting Covid deaths and many states sought to minimize the count, an exact count is not possible.  However it's safe to assume the numbers given are approximately correct.

 

 I also don't believe your speculation about "plenty of evidence where healthy people have died within hours of getting the vaccine".  Any sources for that?

 

The vaccine was given emergency authorization because hundreds of thousands of people had died of Covid in the US, and very few had died after vaccination with none of those deaths attributable to the vaccination.

 

No, the vaccines in use in the US are in phase 4, not phase 3.

 

To my knowledge you didn't state the vaccines caused deaths.  However in a discussion of the benefits of getting vaccinated it is reasonable to contrast death rates for the disease versus the vaccination.

 

Of course there is no data for the long term effects of the vaccines, just as there is no data for the long term effects of Covid.  However there is data suggesting that the detrimental effects of Covid last for months or longer for a significant number of those infected:

 

"Britain’s Office for National Statistics (ONS) estimates that 14% of people who have tested positive for covid-19 have symptoms which subsequently linger for more than three months (see chart 1). In more than 90% of those cases the original symptoms were not severe enough to warrant admission to hospital. According to the ONS, in the four weeks from February 6th nearly half a million people in Britain reported they had had long covid for more than six months—and this will not include any of those infected towards the end of 2020 in the country’s second wave.   https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2021/04/29/researchers-are-closing-in-on-long-covid

 

Vaccines work by injecting into the body a weakened virus, fragment of virus, or protein; things which the body is well adapted to deal with.  We infect our bodies with a much wider variety of biological nasties with every cut and scrape that happens routinely in everyday life, yet we manage to survive.

The video I sent she's not just a doctor ... she  is the director of the Illinois Department of Public Health
the British government also confirmed this is how they compile the deaths (any death for any reason within 28 days of a positive test is counted as a covid death) the same as all states in the USA

Personally I don't care if you believe me or not ..... I know you have a clue what you are talking about  ! "Vaccines work by injecting into the body a weakened virus" ... this little gem from you shows me all I need to know about your knowledge about these covid vaccines 

"RNA vaccines work by introducing into the body a messenger RNA (mRNA) sequence that contains the genetic instructions for the vaccinated person’s own cells to produce the vaccine antigens" 
From pfizers own website !...
It's nothing to do with a weakened virus or a fragment of the virus.!
https://www.pfizer.co.uk/behind-science-what-mrna-vaccine

"Despite the unprecedented speed, mRNA vaccines are clinically unproven. No commercially available vaccines use the platform and, until now"
COVID-19 and mRNA Vaccines—First Large Test for a New Approach | Infectious Diseases | JAMA | JAMA Network
If you're happy taking an experimental vaccine that's fine but it's very obvious you haven't done any research so I don't think anyone should be taking advice from you.

Please don't bother answering anymore , it is plain for all to see .... you are arguing from a point of total ignorance and embarrassing yourself, so therefore it's pointless discussing anything with you.

On 5/14/2021 at 2:22 PM, Nojohndoe said:

So obviously you have planned and ordered your existence thus far  regardless of external influences ! I would be impressed i it could be  believed.

Those  years to test a vaccine.... no human lab rats involved? Not even  voluntary ones?  Why years? Establishment of efficacy  needs  so long  or is the massive  funding for the extended development 

a factor?

Been there? Been where?

 

I said  ... I'm not a human lab rat  ... if you want to be  ... knock yourself out. As for the rest of your incomprehensible ramblings, that's something else. 
Also,  your last quip ... been more places than you will ever go, or know, sad Johndoe

2 hours ago, heybruce said:

Approval process in the United States (most western nations have similar processes):

 

"Clinical development is a three-phase process. During Phase I, small groups of people receive the trial vaccine. In Phase II, the clinical study is expanded and vaccine is given to people who have characteristics (such as age and physical health) similar to those for whom the new vaccine is intended. In Phase III, the vaccine is given to thousands of people and tested for efficacy and safety.

Many vaccines undergo Phase IV formal, ongoing studies after the vaccine is approved and licensed."   https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/basics/test-approve.html

 

Vaccines approved for use in the US have passed the first three phases.

 

Between 1% and 2% of people known to have contracted Covid 19 in the US have died.  The people who have died after vaccination (not necessarily for reasons having anything to do with Covid or the vaccination) is about 1/1000 this percentage.

 

"Over 259 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through May 10, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 4,434 reports of death (0.0017%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. ....... A review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records has not established a causal link to COVID-19 vaccines."   https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

 

In other words, there is no evidence any of these deaths were caused by the vaccination.  If you track over 100 million people over a five month period, chances are thousands of these people will die of something during that time.

 

 

It is widely acknowledged only between ! and 10% of cases are reported to VAERS, before covid, it was accepted it was less than 1%
if they used the same criteria as they do for calculating covid deaths ie: any death within 28 days of a positive test result (even people with a terminal disease, or killed in an accident are included) there is no doubt the death figures would be much higher.
I think there is plenty of evidence where healthy people have died within hours of getting the vaccine, never mind 28 days.
The vaccine hasn't been approved by the FDA ... it's only been given emergency authorisation. 
So this is still phase three, also can you direct me to the long term effect data ?
But more importantly .... at what point did I say the vaccine was causing deaths  ?
Looks like maybe, that's what you are thinking , so accuse me of saying that ?

https://odysee.com/@thetruthwillsetyoufree:f4/dr.-ezike-explains-how-covid-deaths-are-recorded.:8
 

3 hours ago, VBF said:

Put your rattle back in your pram, read what i actually said rather than what you choose to read into it and congratulations on being the first on my ignore list.

ooh  . I wonder if I'll lose sleep if you put me on that list  ..... ???? ... em .... no I won't 
"The latest government data" is copied and pasted from you post .... which part are you claiming you didn't write ? .....
I would agree with everything you've said ... but that would make us both wrong !
It is easier to fool the people, than to convince them they have been fooled.
This is bang on the button for the people who are willing to adopt the Josef Mengele school of medicine ... well done

3 hours ago, Brierley said:

I was born 5 years after WWII ended, I studied the war in detail for many years, I grew up in the after effects of the war, I visited Dunkirk and Dieppe on the ferry when there were still pill boxes and tank traps on the beaches. My parents, uncles and other relatives fought in that war, our family lost members in Europe and the Pacific. As an adult I worked in Munich for two years, I visited Dachau, Auschwitz and Buchenwald, I have talked with people who were interned in those camps. I have spoken with German people about the war, about their experiences and about the Nazi regime. I have read Mein Kamp and Albert Speers autobiography and Rise and Fall of Third Reich. I know without a single doubt that there are absolutely no similarities whatsoever between the things the Nazi regime did and what governments today are trying to do in their desire to stop the covid19 pandemic by offering vaccinations. People who try to make comparisons between the two don't have the first clue what they are talking about and are only trying to impress others by interjecting the word Nazi's into their arguments. That's why you're both on my ignore list, you have demonstrated, right out of the gate, a total failure to comprehend academically, intellectually and humanitarianly and we will almost certainly never have anything meaningful or useful to discuss.

Firstly ... you must be a liar ... you said I was on your ignore list ... but you've seen my post 
Secondly ... I don't give 2 hoots about your life story.
Also ...  governments are not "offering" the injection .. they are threatening to make a persons life intolerable if they don't take the vaccine.
The vaccine has not received FDA approval because it is still in the trial phase, most trials are due to finish by 2022/23.
The Nuremberg Code specifically forbids the testing of drugs or vaccines on the the population, and here you are championing sanctions against people who don't want to take part in this experiment.
Forcing anyone to take a vaccine (never mind an experimental one) should always be viewed as a Nazi policy, because after all ... that's what they did. 
 

2 hours ago, Brierley said:

Welcome to my ignore list. Byee.

Classic  ... hasn't got a clue how to answer  ... so buries his head in the sand  ....... adding people to his "ignore list" 

2 hours ago, VBF said:

You ask "If the vaccine works, how would an unvaccinated person pose a risk to a one that's been vaccinated ?  ....."

They wouldn't but what if the unvaccinated person mixes with other unvaccinated people?  There's your spread right there.

The answer is we all get vaccinated as soon as possible - it's quite clear.

 

Regarding " experimental vaccines"  - there is basically no need to prove a point to anyone so patently unwilling to study and comprehend the evidence provided. Did you bother to watch the video to which I provided a link?

 

No there wasn't been time before you rebutted my post. Good day to you.

You said in your first post .... "latest government data" .... meaning no one knew of these effects when the vaccine was released on the public. That's because it is still in the trial phase ... we don't have any data of mid or long term effects. It hasn't been approved by the FDA because it is still being tested ... by definition that means it is an experimental vaccine !! ..... 
I couldn't give 2 hoots about a Channel4 video .... I could direct you to 100's of videos saying different.
You've tried the anti vaxx argument (it didn't work) now trying the I know best argument, still doesn't work.
If people don't want the vaccine, the only people it might effect is other people who don't want the vaccine  ...... what happened to the "your choice"  argument you used before ?
The answer is .... let the guinea pigs take the vaccine ("your choice") and if the wiser people don't want to take it, that's their choice ..... stop demanding everyone should do as you do, 

41 minutes ago, VBF said:

Are you being deliberately obtuse or is English your second language?

 

At the time the vaccines were released, the manufacturers were not sure whether the vaccines would stop transmission or not, as that is not the primary job of a vaccine. Their primary job is to prevent the recipient from getting sick - that was known to work.  Because they were not sure they quite rightly erred on the side of caution and said that the vaccines might not hinder transmission.

 

However, now, several months later, it has become apparent from further testing, that the vaccines do indeed aid in preventing transmission. 

 

And if you bothered, once again to read the link or watch the TV programme https://www.channel4.com/programmes/jabbed-inside-britains-vaccine-triumph you would see that the testing HAS been carried out but in much less time than usual but just as thoroughly. 

 

You appear to be amongst the "anti-vaxxer" community, and to be sure you have the right not to take a vaccine - that's your choice and i defend your right.

 

However I'm sure you won't mind being excluded from travel, sporting and musical events and whatever else requires proof of vaccination...after all, it's your choice.

Yes  ... exclude healthy people because you've been brainwashed. 
If the vaccine works, how would an unvaccinated person pose a risk to a one that's been vaccinated ?  .....
Maybe make the unvaccinated people wear a coloured star on their clothing and for good measure tattoo a number on their wrist ... put them on trains to camps in the countryside  ..... 
I defend your right to take an experimental vaccine ... but I wouldn't demand your exclusion from society ! (maybe I would make an exception in your case) Nobody has any mid or long term data to prove that the vaccinated pose no threat later. If you think you win the argument by saying "anti-vaxxer" ...you're deluded. That's a cheap shot used by people who cannot prove a point.

Just now, Nojohndoe said:

We are all life's  lab rats in the first instance. Which is exactly why people are not compelled (as yet) to accept a vaccine!

 

"We are all life's  lab rats" ..... you might be ... I'm certainly not, it takes years to test a vaccine properly .. this hasn't been done.  This is totally against the Nuremberg Code, which was agreed after WW2 to stop humans being used as lab rats ..... maybe you are a supporter of  Josef Mengele ?

5 minutes ago, orchidfan said:

Yes, I guess so. Or stay inside. 

Maybe a couple of good covid tests and if negative,  release.

Have a mate with stepdaughter in for 2yrs as an accomplice to her,unmarried partner, who allegedly sold secondhand motorcycle parts.

He got 7 yrs and she got 2yrs,about a year ago.

She wouldn't know anything about motorcycles except how to ride one.

No consideration for the 10 year old boy left with no mum and dad.

Court didn't care it seems..

Thai justice at its best!

Maybe we could make the unvaccinated wear coloured stars, maybe have a number tattooed on their wrists .... also maybe put them on trains to live in camps in the countryside. ...... it's been done before.
It wasn't acceptable then .... it shouldn't be now 

53 minutes ago, orchidfan said:

 

"Vaccinate and release if they have not YET contracted Covid19"
Force vaccinate  ?

2 hours ago, VBF said:

For goodness sake....at least READ my post to which you responded! 

 

I said:    That thought process is somewhat out of date. 

 

It was released months ago and the manufacturers were necessarily cautious - nearly every day brings the results of new research into Covid-related issues.

I have read the post  ..... are you suggesting the manufactures didn't know ? ... are you suggesting they are rolling out a totally untested vaccine ? and we are just waiting to see what happens?
I don't think there should be any room for "thought process" when they are giving this jab to billions of people.  We don't have any mid or long term data on the effects of the vaccine, but hey if you want to be a lab rat ... that's your choice .... but you should respect other peoples choice not to be.
 

6 hours ago, Jingthing said:

How could you possibly know its only a couple of weeks?

How many people do you know personally who have been seriously ill or died in the last 18 month ?
another 2 weeks or 2 month or 2 year .... it doesn't matter

1 minute ago, DoctorB said:

Don't want to be picky, but where did you get your figures from? Worldometers.com for 12 May shows 3,333,788 deaths for 160,416,508 cases worldwide, which is a fatality rate of 2.07%; so the survival rate is about 97.9 %. Having said that, one suspects the case rate is very much understated as people with mild or no symptoms are unlikely to be tested, and the death rate overstated as other respiratory fatalities are likely to be shown as Covid (eg the UK showed an unbelievably low rate of flu deaths this winter) so you may be right. Either way, it's hardly the Black Death.

It's not easy to find accurate figures ..... as you say .... 100's of thousands of flu and respiratory deaths have disappeared, all counted as covid. The official government figures on the UK website, actually tells you the have included the death twice .... (as covid and also respiratory) I have no idea why ...... 

1 hour ago, hioctane said:

 

The chances are low that a vaccinated person will contract the virus. It prevents hospitalization and death. That is the point of vaccination.  Early studies have shown that they do not pass the virus. Studies are ongoing but evidence from highly vaccinated countries show that it does not.

Why are vaccinated people still made to wear mask and social distance  ... still not allowed to visit their family  ... Even the manufactures of the vaccine have said it doesn't stop you passing it on, are you calling them liars ?