IntEdSource

MrJohnson:

I'm in absolute agreement. While the top schools do charge substantially more than many others, the advantages they provide are often immense (and not often discernible until your child is enrolled). Being a non-profit is also highly conducive to a more positive learning environment in most cases, though there are also non-profit schools that still struggle with the same issues as those that are for-profit. One key to overcoming this is ensuring that the school possesses strong, positive leadership on both the part of the management and the board. If they both recognize and accept their nature of their roles, and work together for the good of the school, the culture of excellence develops naturally.

Also, thank you for the very kind comments!

Monomial:

Being as far on the outskirts of Bangkok as it is, I have little personal experience with AIT International School and cannot provide a recommendation based on any first-hand knowledge. However, I would say at least three points favor it: accreditation through the Council of International Schools, the right kind of person leading it (at least in respect to a teaching and leadership background, and international experience), and a surprisingly diverse student body for such a small school. Given their fee range, it seems like a very reasonable option if price is a major concern, as most of the other international schools (particularly Harrow and ISB, both a little closer to central Bangkok) would be much higher. I would actually like to hear from parents who send their children there as well if any happen to be in this forum.

There should be no significant differences in terms of legal status or requirements due to its association with AIT, though it could possibly benefit from additional resources and support as a result.

A good teaching job? Seriously? Who in their right mind would come to Thailand for a job that doesn't pay enough that they would ever be able to buy a house or a car?

You must be new here. It is not entirely uncommon for teachers in international schools to earn 70-120k per month, with the top ones paying up to around 200k. Then there is the housing allowance, flight back home once a year, and the 8-10 week holidays.

Name the schools that pay 200k baht per month?

I think if your the head of a very good international school maybe but not a standard year teacher. More like 60k a month maybe little more.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ISB, NIST and Bangkok Patana all have salary scales that begin around 150,000 per month. Those who remain long enough to reach the top of the scale make substantially more. This does not include the housing allowance (which ranges from approximately 28,000 to 65,000 per month depending on the school and family situation), annual flights and many other benefits. Those with additional responsibilities, including coordinators, department heads, etc., receive additional stipends beyond their base pay. As most of the teachers, though not all, hired at these schools have several years of experience, they tend to begin around 170,000 to 200,000 net with the housing allowance included.

I review much of this in this post, but you can also visit Bangkok Patana's benefits summary and an archived version of ISB's summary for additional information. Mid tier schools, being much larger in number, tend to have scales that range from 60,000 to 160,000 per month.

In respect to the OP, if it's a decent ESL/EFL position that pays 50,000 or more per month, I think it's worth doing for a year or two if he is still young and wants a change of pace. Depending on how the school processes your cousin's paperwork, his incident may not even come up. The reality is that the government's claimed requirements for background checks and the actual practice do not necessarily align.

Mickey Cohen:

In response to your original question, I'm aware of a few low tier international schools (licensed by the MOE and members of ISAT) that pay as low as 40,000 - 50,000 per month. Those in the mid tier have a higher range. As I indicated in another thread, salaries at the high mid tier and upper tier schools can be substantially higher. I have a few salary scales of schools on hand that demonstrate this (I made the figures approximate). Those with additional responsibilities also qualify for additional pay in each of these cases.

• Case 1 - mid-sized school in central Bangkok: 50,000 - 130,000 (maximum point of entry: 80,000); does not provide housing, but does include airfare and a few other benefits
• Case 2 - mid-sized school in central Bangkok: 90,000 - 115,000 (maximum point of entry: 100,000); also provides housing allowance, airfare and other benefits
• Case 3 - mid-sized school in central Bangkok: 88,000 - 164,000 (maximum point of entry: 115,000); does not provide housing, but does include airfare and several other benefits
• Case 4 - large school in Bangkok suburb: 105,000 - 165,000 (maximum point of entry: not designated); includes free housing, airfare and other benefits

The top tier schools currently have scales that begin around 150,000 (175,000 in one case as of the last time I had seen it), and most teachers at those schools are well above that base. Those with additional responsibilities are even higher, and the benefits are top notch.

26 periods is slightly high on average, but most of the schools I'm aware of have a minimum full-time requirement of 20 and a maximum of 25. In a few cases I've seen a maximum of 30, and my friends at that school were certainly unhappy with it. (As others have pointed out, however, it also depends on the length of the periods.)

If it helps, when I originally came to Thailand I was also less than 30, did not yet have a degree in education, and I earned 65,000 at a mid-sized international school. I was happy with the offer at that point in my career despite having taken a pay cut from my work in another country. It's then a matter of working your way up the ladder if you do want to be a professional educator. If you're aspiring to work at one of the top schools, the reality is that it's difficult to get those positions if you're already in Thailand unless you happen to have particular skills that match an opening or you have an inside connection. I happened to get lucky with the former scenario.

After a very long absence - for both personal and work-related reasons - I'm going to continue contributing to this thread. Apologies for the long absence if you asked a question and did not receive an answer.

BrainXcel, jh2001, Makhao & ExpatLove:

Thank you!

In Town:

You summarized one of the significant differences between top tier international schools (not only in Thailand, but in all countries) in respect to quality: they invest far more in ensuring that each student's individual needs are met. This is not to say that teachers at other schools do not care, but rather that it's more difficult to do so given the resources.

toenail:

You also made a very accurate observation in the differences between those teaching in mid and high tier international schools versus those elsewhere. The former tend to be those who consider this a profession, one in which they will continually develop. The latter often, though not always, teach English as a backup or to simply have the opportunity to live abroad. That's not necessarily a bad thing, as I and many others began careers in education that way. However, it does mean that quality international schools are highly unlikely to hire them.

mike324:

"...it really all depends on your kid, no school can make your kid a genius..." I agree entirely with this. I do believe that the top schools are worth the investment, but only if your child is motivated and willing to take advantage of the opportunities offered. In many cases I've seen parents pay several million baht to send their children to a good international school, only to have them enroll in a university here in Thailand. While it may be understandable if they simply have the money to spend and will have a guaranteed position for their child (in a family company or through personal connections), I personally don't see it as a good decision.

long klong:

Each school has different procedures. In both I've worked at here in Thailand, interviews were conducted with multiple individuals - most often one or more of the leadership team and also departmental supervisors. In some cases this included a Thai representative, but not always. Beyond qualifications, personality and cultural awareness were taken into consideration. However, that is likely not the case at other mid and low tier schools.

Though the Thai cultural training course is mandated for teachers at international schools, I frankly do not think it is effective in ensuring that teachers who are unfamiliar with Asian and/or Thai culture will be able to adapt.

carter1882:

You make several excellent points, and I agree with all of them!

ExpatOilWorker:

When considering the top schools, they're all excellent from kindergarten to high school. At the earliest ages, the question would rather be whether you wanted your child to be significantly larger school - one that has them learning alongside many others - or in a small kindergarten focused only on that age group. There are advantages and disadvantages in either case, and it boils down to personal preference. Beyond that, any overarching plan for your child would be heavily dependent on what your aims are. University in Thailand or abroad? Ivy League or small university matched to their interests? Strong involvement on your part or allowing them to develop more independently?

Tim Dime:

Thank you, and feel free to PM me if you have you have any specific questions.

A1:

It's difficult to really recommend one over the other, as it's so heavily dependent on preference. The most obvious difference is in their curricula, American versus British versus IB, but all three provide such a high quality education that it's possible for a capable, motivated student from any of them to be accepted into a top university. As a parent, you would really need to visit each one to get a feel for the culture if you did not want a specific curriculum. I would say that in terms of international recognition, ISB would be first, followed by Patana and NIST, simply because it has been established the longest. However, all three schools are known at many of the admissions offices of universities in the UK and the US, and students applying from them may be more carefully considered than those coming from many other international schools in Thailand because of that.

dan153:

Thank you - I appreciate the kind words. I did a little bit of digging, and based on what I've been able to find, I do think they're taking the right approach in starting a new school. Given that and your daughter's age, I would have no qualms about recommending that you enroll here there versus a longer-established school. Depending on how they pursue accreditation options and present a plan for further development, you could later make a choice about keeping her there or transferring her to a school that has a demonstrated track record of getting students into good universities abroad.

recylcer:

All of the top schools put a cap on the number of Thai students (25-30% in most cases), and they have no shortage of applicants from that demographic. The expatriate population primarily represents the children of embassy and UN staff, the large multinational corporations (which do still either pay the fees or at least provide some assistance), and business owners. In the case of ISB, Patana and NIST, there is a waiting list for them as well, so the demand is there. As you point out, much of it is driven by the problems endemic in the public schools.

Satcommlee:

In my experience the mid tier schools specifically seek to hire "real" teachers. In the school in which I previously worked, we aimed for candidates with degrees in education or in their subject areas at the secondary level, as well as some sort of teacher training. There were cases when we would hire individuals without teaching qualifications if they had background in a specific area (physics, math, etc.) under the proviso that they get that training. (Contrary to popular opinion, it is possible to do this at schools in Thailand. The MOE and Kurusupa simply mandate that any such hires acquire the necessary teaching credentials within a designated time period in order to qualify for the Thai teaching license.)

At the upper mid tier and top tier schools, it's not even a question. The teachers are qualified.

Rhys:

You would probably have to be a little more specific. The best answer I can give for now is that it isn't teaching ESL. The majority of students I've interacted with at both of my positions in Thailand have already been fluent in English or at least on par with others of their age in the UK and US. That is definitely the case in my current school. Expectations are certainly high, but the school culture is such that it's also recognized that teachers are learners as well, and that the best approach is ensuring continual support and professional development.

peterkroll:

Based on your criteria, your best option would be a quality, established mid tier school, though it obviously depends on your location and budget as well.

romain22:

On the posts on your site, showing the cheapest and most expensive average tuition rates, you ask "How would you explain such a huge difference in terms of annual tuition fee when the 3 cheapest international schools in Thailand and the 3 most expensive schools in Thailand are all accredited by legitimate foreign authorities--American, French, British and more, and have trained, qualified and competent teaching staff with the required experience and diploma?"

While there are many differences that could be cited - including location (and the related costs of the land), resources, facilities, age range (which partly explains one on your list), affiliations and memberships, and others - I'll focus on the specific areas you identified in the question. As I had mentioned in my original post, the legal title of international school in Thailand necessitates registering the school as such through the MOE. Many schools have not done this and thus technically do not have claim to that title.

Those that do so usually apply for membership to ISAT, which requires that they be accredited through specific, approved organizations. Simply having accreditation through ONESQA does not qualify them, and if they fail to apply for the necessary overseas accreditation within a designated time period, ISAT rejects them for full membership. Other schools have actually lost their accreditation through those organizations; I know of several low tier schools that have faced that exact situation. The owner of another school, in an effort to make it appear as if they undergone additional external assessment, has created his own "affiliation" of schools outside of Thailand. Not all accreditation is equal, and there is a direct correlation to quality.

Similarly, not all teachers are equal. As I pointed out in my answer to Satcommlee, schools in Thailand are not actually obligated to hire teachers with teaching credentials as long as those individuals acquire the necessary training within an initial two-year period or within a one-time extension period that can be granted after that. Additionally, I have known of cases at low tier schools in which teachers were registered as non-educational staff, bypassing the process entirely. Simply perusing the staff lists of some schools results in a large number of non-education degrees and no other teaching qualification. Compare this to the upper mid tier and high tier schools, where a significant percentage of the teachers not only have such qualification, but also master's degrees in education or their subject areas.

Again, these are only two factors among many others, but it's safe to say there is a significant difference in quality as related to the difference in price.

eddieblack:

At this point I would not necessarily say that either St. Andrews chain is bad by any means, but given a choice between the two I'd lean toward those operated by Nord Anglia.

TravelerEastWest:

Most of my knowledge is related to schools in Bangkok and surrounding countries, so I cannot provide any definite answers regarding Prem. If it helps at all, I have never heard criticism of it.

stevejkt and aTomsLife:

This is beginning to touch on an area I would prefer to steer clear of if possible, as I do not think it would be helpful to disparage particular schools. Suffice to say, I have several friends who work at ASB and have described its operations. Despite being qualified, caring teachers, they become frustrated with it. In the case of the other schools, aTomsLife, you are correct in your interpretation of that paragraph, and I did touch on a few of the factors that I feel hold those schools back. However, two points I think cannot be emphasized enough are that some schools here simply are not seeking to match their larger competitors, instead aiming for a particular size and demographic, and the placing of schools in tiers (including my own) is always ultimately subjective.

StefanBKK:

This is a sentiment I fully understand, and one that I have discussed with my peers at times. It is in all honesty quite difficult to go to work sometimes and see the poverty that surrounds us. Would we like to be able to provide this same level of education to all children? Of course. Is it possible? Probably not without an entire restructuring of our economic and social systems. What I would point out is that many of our teachers do go out of their way to work with other schools and students in need in their own free time. Additionally, service to the community is heavily integrated into the curricula of the large schools, and they often initiate large projects, beyond simple charity, to develop communities in the region. (In reference to comments that have attacked the character of international school students, I would point out that many of these projects are started by the students themselves, and some of our alumni have gone on to found non-profits or work with organizations around the world to address poverty and other issues.)

long klong:

Parental concerns and feedback could indeed be a thread by itself. This varies a great deal depending on the school structure, the demographics of the parents, the curriculum and many other related factors. I agree that cultural concerns can play an issue, though this would most often be in the low to lower mid-tier schools (though not restricted solely to them). There were situations even in my previous school in which cultural sensitivity needed to be addressed.

The way that many international schools, including my previous and present one, try to address this is through the incorporation of Thai values into the mission and vision in some form, and actually follow through on those statements through the programs. In my previous school in particular there was an emphasis on appreciating Thai culture and showing respect even if one personally disagreed with aspects of it. I think that's the lesson both teachers and students should take away: disagreement is fine; disrespect is not.

Aside from cultural issues, the most common issues I've dealt with in the past have related to curriculum in one form or another. While Western parents are often more concerned with their children's overall wellness, many of the Asian parents want to see very specific features in the school's academic program: more homework, less homework, spelling tests, no spelling tests, etc. This most often required sitting down with each of them and walking them through the school's philosophy and the educational research to support various approaches.

Spock and Bangkok Banks:

Thanks to both of you for sharing your positive views of these schools. It seems that some are determined to believe that a quality education on par with other countries is impossible in Thailand, and your direct experiences are even more proof that it is entirely possible.

KhnomKhnom:

Are there some schools that fail to conduct proper background checks? I have absolutely no doubt that it does happen.

Is this occurring at schools that hire professional, licensed educators; charge thousands upon thousands of US dollars per year; have been established for decades; maintain extensive English-speaking HR departments with established layers of oversight; and are non-profits overseen by parent-elected boards? In short, no. I know through personal experience that the upper mid-tier schools conduct proper background checks as well.

ExpatOilWorker:

Thank you for the kind comment. I do think Ruamrudee is a good school, and if you want one with a high Thai population, they certainly do. (Though I don't know current figures, I have at various times seen figures of 70-90% of the total student population cited for Ruamrudee, Shrewsbury and Harrow.) I do not think any solid figures exist in respect to future permanent residents, but the likelihood of the students of those schools eventually settling in Thailand is obviously higher.

If you are seeking such as school because of the possibility of your child establishing a future business/social network, however, almost any top school would do the same. My best recommendation would be to visit the schools you are considering and get a feel for their individual cultures. Despite all of them being quality schools, they do have unique aspects and characteristics that make them suitable for different children.

thefactoryoutlet, think_too_mut and maidee

In response to many of the questions that have arisen here, I have provided links indicating the quality of schools elsewhere versus the top schools here. I have provided information about the salary scales and backgrounds of teachers at those schools. That you merely insist schools here cannot be good does not make it so.

think_too_mut, I have responded directly to several of your statements with evidence demonstrating the contrary. Rather than backing down or indicating that you were mistaken, you simply shift to a different argument and ad hominem attacks. You clearly have no intention of engaging in a conversation and simply want to antagonize. I have no desire or inclination to do so any further.

think-too-mut:

I do not have any first-hand knowledge of schools in Japan, so I cannot comment on their quality, pay or practices. However, you are incorrect in assuming that salaries of 200,000 baht per month are only at the level of principals at the top international schools in Thailand. (Additionally, university lecturers here make far less than teachers in those schools.) My previous mid-tier school's salary scale, which was not high compared to others, started at approximately 55,000 - 60,000 baht per month for a teacher with a bachelor's degree or subject degree and no experience. It went as high as 130,000 baht, and we did have a handful of teachers who were above 100,000. Housing allowances were not provided, but annual flights were following the first two years.

At my current school, the scale begins at approximately 148,000 baht per month for a licensed teacher (which is required) with a bachelor's degree and no experience. However, we very rarely hire such teachers. Most have several years of experience, and with our salary steps, they typically begin at 160,000 - 170,000 per month. Additionally, we do offer a housing allowance that begins at 42,000 for single teachers. In short, our average teacher begins at just over 200,000 per month before taxes. We also provide full health and dental insurance, flights for the teacher and his/her dependents, a personal professional development allowance, annual bonus (equivalent to another month's pay), free tuition for up to two of their children and other minor perks. This is obviously sufficient to attract excellent educators from all over the world.

I have already provided evidence regarding student achievement, which should clearly indicate that these schools are able to provide a high enough quality education to match other superior schools in other countries. However, you specify that the teachers are subpar, even in these top schools.

Teachers who joined my current school this year came from, among others, American International School of Budapest (Hungary), Anglo-American School of Moscow (Russia), Bonn International School (Germany), Inter-Community School Zurich (Switzerland), International School of Kuala Lumpur (Malaysia), International School of Prague (Czech Republic), I-Shou International School (Taiwan), United World College of South East Asia (Singapore), Western Academy of Beijing (China) and Yokohama International School (Japan). You'll note that many of those schools are in the countries that you specified as having superior schools and teachers.

Many of our outgoing staff were hired at these same schools and others of the same caliber. Among our current staff are a co-founder of a global education publishing company, founder of a non-profit organization that helps young girls in Laos receive a free education, a world-regarded EAL expert, and others who operate their own non-profits and businesses alongside their work at the school. Nearly every one of them has ten or more years of international experience, most of it outside Thailand. These are not the profiles of average teachers, nor of individuals who cannot find work in schools elsewhere. The top schools here attract the best teachers like all other top schools around the world.

As mentioned in a previous post, the top three are also run as non-profits, overseen by a parent-elected board. Looking at the boards of governors at Bangkok Patana School, International School Bangkok and NIST International School, it becomes quite clear that the families who send their children to these schools could easily afford to send them to other schools in Asia. They choose to send them to these schools for a reason: the quality.

At this point it seems tenuous to attempt to argue that these are not world-class teachers or world-class schools, unless we simply want to quibble about the connotations of "world-class". If that is the issue, I would simply rephrase it and say top teachers who are on par with those at other top schools outside of Thailand.

bkkgooner:

"Most of us teachers in Thailand just work for our families and do a good job but cheers for tarring us all with the same brush."

I agree entirely with this sentiment. Many of the excellent teachers I've encountered over the years in Thailand, particularly in my last position, have worked their way up from bilingual schools or government schools, have families and are generally very nice people. I suspect that the stigma of being in Thailand drives many to assume that they are only here for the drugs, women or beach, which is unfortunately inaccurate in many cases.

rotary:

You're welcome, and I appreciate the positive comment!

davidst01:

Again, I appreciate the positive comment. I agree with the post written by In Town. Students who plan to attend a Thai university, including for medicine or similar fields, can easily get in even if they attend a top government or bilingual school. It's also relatively accurate to say that cultural conditioning can play a significant role. We hadn't had many graduating classes at my previous school, and though many went to excellent universities in the United States (University of Wisconsin - Madison, Rice University, etc.) and elsewhere (Seoul National University, Monash University, etc.), many others chose to attend Chula, Thammasat and Mahidol. In several of those cases, they encountered difficulty integrating, primarily because of the vast differences in teaching styles (authoritarian and lecture-based at the universities compared to a more progressive Western approach in our school).

Silom:

I agree. ICS provides excellent value for the fees it charges, particularly when compared to other schools in that area. Again, I think it being non-profit plays at least one part in that.

joshstiles:

The purpose was to provide more accurate information about international schools, as I have seen many questions, inaccurate claims and unwarranted criticisms on these boards. You're not obligated to read it...

kingstonkid:

Among the upper mid-tier schools, all of them generally do have sound curricula and teaching practices in place. As I mentioned, my previous school was considered mid-tier, and our students - across the board - scored at or near the same levels at native English speakers in standardized English language tests (SAT 10, SAT, MAPS, etc.), and exceeded them by the time they graduated. On the other hand, I do agree that even among some of the mid-tier schools, the primary goal is money, and in those cases the students are the ones who suffer. I don't believe that's the case among the schools I referenced in my original post, but I admittedly do not have first-hand experience with all of them on the list.

nicky2012:

Thank you for pointing that out. The entire purpose of creating this thread was to clear up inaccuracies, and I'm glad I'm not the only one doing so.