excaliber

note2: I built a 2,000 m2, 2-story, electronics factory in Korat in 1997 for a total cost of 9,000 baht/m2

Thanks Excaliber.

Finally an answer I can use to some thing, anybody else that can help?

forgot to mention: the cost included a/c & special heppa filter system, British Steel roof, concealed rain gutters and my salary. The original contractor tender/bid was more than double the finished cost before revising the design/plans from single story, cheap roof, etc.....Most people don't understand the advantages of hiring a competent Project Manager.

Apologies for reviving such an ancient thread, but does anyone know more about this. I'm very much interested in putting coloured and polished concrete floors throughout my home when I build it. Anyone up near Chiang Mai who has done this, or even seen it done?

Thanks.

Yes, I've done it many times over the past 35 years, no, I'm not near Chiangmai

Anybody who asks for such information via the internet is asking for trouble.

I think people in the business know the cost for this without architect drawings or Quantity Surveyor.

what trouble will I get from asking?

Professional advice is not welcome in this forum as the title suggest: "Do it Yourself".

What that have to do with professional advice, is it a Professional secret what the price is on material? I think also many "Do it Yourself" know the price.

But ok, I understand this is not the forum that wants to help with this.

This is also better and easier to post a non helping and degrading post.

The question was not more than what is the estimated cost for cement and iron for a 3 story building, sorry I can’t see the difficulties in answering on that only.

I think what JRinger was suggesting in his post when saying, "advice from professionals is not welcome on this forum". Example: Someone with a lifetime of experience gives their "professional advice/opinion" on a particular subject and is almost always shot down by the 'arm-chair-experts' so they don't bother to come back.

Example2: Someone posted a question a while back about replacing floor tile: It was suggested (from a "professional") that new tile can be applied to the the existing surface rather than tearing out the old tile & thin concrete bed. The idea was totally rejected in favor of tearing out the old and replacing it the same way. Even common sense will tell you that the "professional" way is easier, quicker, less messy and yes, cheaper.

There are many other examples but why waste the time with the arm-chair-experts and know-it-alls if your "professional" advice is rejected every time? and in addition, if someone is serious about building or remodeling, why ask an 'arm-chair-expert'? who will tell you anything he wants without consequence, while on the other hand, the "professional" has his reputation to consider.....

OK...I'm not saying there isn't some good and viable information available on this site and others but you have to decide for yourself what's best in your particular situation.........

and just because someone has the experience of some particular aspect of construction, be it estimating, material choices, etc., doesn't mean he should give away his knowledge just because someone asked for it?.....ever get free info from lawyers, doctors, etc. The information you're asking for may take a short while to answer for a professional but "professionals" get paid for their time & advice....On the other hand, "trading" is perfectly acceptable. Say you're a brilliant and successful currency trader and you want the information you've asked for and willing to 'trade' information....great...but if you ask for free information without anything to offer in exchange, good luck.......and as a side note: I can almost predict with 99% accuracy that some arm-chair-expert will respond to my above responce with a cynical and/or rude comment.....hence the statement: "professional advice is not welcome on this forum".

note2: I built a 2,000 m2, 2-story, electronics factory in Korat in 1997 for a total cost of 9,000 baht/m2

what's your prediction now for gold?

whom are you asking? a dummy like me or an expert like Sokal?

If the shoe fits !

what's your prediction now for gold?

if you want to post or pm some details I can let you know what it'll take to prepare detailed plans for Thai builder.

Thai honesty, especially when lying.

I've seen photos of modern homes that are built with HUGE blocks of concrete (size of a small car). Each piece has 6 holes on the sides, a few mm deep. Seen it in Thailand (there is one in Udon Thani) and Japan. Anyone know what those are called?

It sounds like you're talking about 'tilt-up' construction. The walls are poured like slabs with reinforcing steel and the holes are for lifting the slabs vertical with a crane or lull, when they then become walls; normally tied into support columns. This method was very popular in Southern California during the 70's & 80's, mostly used for commercial or industrial buildings, warehouses, factory's, etc. ..

Here are some free house plans. One or two of the smaller houses may be of use.

http://www.crossy.co.uk/Thai_House_Plans/index.html

The drawback to these free plans are that most of the rooms are too small and designed "typical Thai style". Bathrooms, kitchens, etc., and if you want to change the plans then you need to get the foundation and structure plans redrawn and certified. one million baht will get you a house no bigger than 100 Sqm (assuming you can build for 10k/Sqm; average grade materials, local labor or better? ++

Many things to consider if you plan to live in the house and not have to fix things at great expense.

You can also find ready-to-build house plans with Structural engineer's certification designed to western standards at very reasonable costs. pm if interested.. On the other hand, if you don't mind having to correct things later on then by all means, just send the money and move in when finished.

BIG WHOOPS !!! You're building for your in-laws so disregard all of the above.

Everything I v done previously in Europe has been the modern way.

In one house here we removed 130 sqm of tiles and mortar with a jackhammer in one day, and layed a new granite floor the thai way in 4 days. 3 bed, 2 bath, 3 levels. Work 160 baht/sqm included removal of debris. Same level as the tiles where before, so no problem with doors.

Case Closed....

I am not here to argue. If you want my history read the posts I have made.

excuse me? you've been arguing the point of "the Thai way" verses another way; but since you have 16 million posts compared to my paltry 100, that makes your words more substantial? All I asked was a simple question without having to read through all your posts....what profession are you or were you in? If a banker advises me on what schools to send my children to, I might have second thoughts.....,.not a tough question Lopburi3.....your profession please?

This forum covers much more than DIY. My advise on doing floor tile is to hire prefessionals - but do it the Thai way. There is no problem with material disposal in Thailand (it is used for fill). In 35 years of living in the same home we have redone floors a number of times and have not had loose tile (ever) nor cracking grout. If I were going to do the work myself your methods would be well worthwhile - but at labor costs here - and the fact we are not supposed to work - believe doing it the Thai way makes more sense.

and, in line with your advice, might as well do the electrical, plumbing, etc., "the Thai way".......and what if you live on the 15th floor and want to re-do the floor? same advice? all the neighbors just love the hours of pounding out the old tile. ....like I said, many times, it's much easier to do it the right way. Over the past 25 years I've managed a lot of construction projects throughout the Kingdom and at first, most were resistant to my ideas/experience (used in the west for over 30 years) but ultimately took the right approach and covered the existing tiles using the proper materials and methods I've described........I've taught Thai's how to do this and they catch on very quick, even upcountry workers.....This country has a way to go to catch up to western standards in many areas of construction: concrete (this is a big one), tile, electrical, plumbing, gypsum, roofing, swimming pools, etc., etc., etc.. so as you suggest, doing it "the Thai way", is sometimes acceptable although some people prefer integrity, longevity and long lasting eye appeal; but I understand your issues; a lot of people have difficulty with improvements & innovation and think the "old way" is best. and might I ask, what profession you are, or were in?

thank you for your explaination,

you way does work definately, but i believe it is more suited to, as youve already stated, hotels/etc.

most hotels want to save money,no mess,quick job.

however, most hotel rooms have only one room,with a bathroom.the bathroom step down created by using this method is acceptable, as is the step-up into the main room.

the people that stay in the hotel use it for maybe 2 weeks, to sleep/shower/change etc. not to live in. they can get over the fact of the irregularities.

i dont believe most people who live in a house would think it was such a good idea after a while of living there.

especially if there were other adjoining rooms where the step down/up would be more noticeable.

the best method is still to remove the existing tiles, this is alot more work but the end result is much better.

this of course is my best advise i would give anyone who wanted this job done.

but, the op wants an easy way out, so probably your way would suit him.

regards

splitlid (shining in lack of experience)

one more Rant.....you think hotels prefer this method because it's cheap and fast? A hotel can't afford to re-do room floors. It's noisy, dusty, etc. The process I've described has more integrity than the "old fashioned way". Certainly it's faster since you don't have to tear out the existing floor. You say that it works in some applications, Which one's? where wouldn't it work? and what other issues? I've tried to explain how to overcome them but it appears you didn't accept them either ....the OP who wanted to know if tiles can be applied over existing tiles has yet to return or respond, kind of rude I think. So my recommendation to him: take your advice and the advice of Lopburi3, etc., and tear it all out....and do it the hard way....

arrrr the joys of having a mod delete your rants.

i was referring to the only example you gave where your method worked, i cant remember the name, but i recall xxx amount of rooms being done in this method in a hotel in samui?

you did say that didnt you?

No, I didn't...It appears your reading & retention span is limited as well......"Rants"?........look Splitlid, there are probably thousands of examples on the internet if you're really interested and/or capable. Or is your agenda just to disagree with people based on what, your lack of experience? I Know it works. I was paid for making it work, and used this process for many years....If you don't agree, fine, but to try and convince other people it doesn't work is kind of immature... this site where you can post all the information/instructions/guidance/recommendations, etc., with little or no experience at all seems to be more accepted.....so I will bow out and not "Rant" anymore.....you may want to consider one thing....there is the possiblility that maybe someone will take advantage of professional advise on this forum instead of mis-guided recommendations from the non-experienced.....can we assume you'll probably start crying "why are you abusing me" again?

thank you for your explaination,

you way does work definately, but i believe it is more suited to, as youve already stated, hotels/etc.

most hotels want to save money,no mess,quick job.

however, most hotel rooms have only one room,with a bathroom.the bathroom step down created by using this method is acceptable, as is the step-up into the main room.

the people that stay in the hotel use it for maybe 2 weeks, to sleep/shower/change etc. not to live in. they can get over the fact of the irregularities.

i dont believe most people who live in a house would think it was such a good idea after a while of living there.

especially if there were other adjoining rooms where the step down/up would be more noticeable.

the best method is still to remove the existing tiles, this is alot more work but the end result is much better.

this of course is my best advise i would give anyone who wanted this job done.

but, the op wants an easy way out, so probably your way would suit him.

regards

splitlid (shining in lack of experience)

No where in my posts did I say this method is more suitable for hotels/etc. It's suitable for residential, commercial, industrial. Floors, walls, ceilings, swimming pools, etc.,and your issues about the big step down? there is NO STEP DOWN if a new threshold is installed, or if not, the step down is a mere 1/2" at most or the thickness of the new tile. You can also stick in the plastic 1/4 round that's widely available for use on stairways, etc.....You keep giving advise based on no experience...."the best method is still to remove the existing tiles, this is alot more work but the end result is much better" ? ......."you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink"......and trying to explain something to someone who doesn't have any hands-on experience is futile. In addition, my reply was to the OP who hasn't bothered to acknowledge any of the post after asking for help.....Once again, my reply and subsequent instructions are based on 40 years in construction and not hearsay....or unqualified advise from other posters....bottom line, do it the way you want to.....

What is done in another country - where the labor cost dictates that it be done that way - is not always the only way; or the best way. It costs very little here to remove/prepare for new tile installation. I firmly believe that is how it should be done for a professional appearance; in Thailand.

You have a point, although consider these things:

1. The time (labor) it take to tile over existing tiles/wood takes much less time than the "traditional way. The tools required are nothing more than a notched trowel, cleaning rags, etc.

2. "professional appearance", if done the way you support, all the tile and thin bed of concrete must first be removed. Lots of noise, dust, debris and 'where to dump everything? In addition, the "traditional way", rough concrete bed then a thin layer of concrete leveled with strings attached from wall to wall. The new tiles are basically laid on top of the fresh concrete without any type of adhesive and more times than not, air gaps/empty space occurs from poor concrete fill. Ok. so now you have a thin bed of concrete (weak) and tiles laid on top of the fresh bed. How professional an appearance do you want. sure, this will look good for maybe a month or so but down the road, the grout cracks (grout is another subject of discussion) due to lose tiles.

Your post/reply doesn't hold water for several reasons. I can tile over an existing floor in a fraction of the time it takes to do it your recommended way. In addition, I can guarantee the integrity; providing you have a sound floor to begin with. If the existing floor has lose tiles, tear em out and fill will thinset (poon tokay) to the level of the surrounding tiles. It's also best to offset the new tiles so the new grout line isn't on top of the old one (for strength & longevity). At the wall, if you don't want to remove any existing baseboard, just leave a small space (1/8"-1/4") and fill with silicone to allow for expansion/movement to avoid tile cracking from outside pressure......then add a length of 1/4 round to cover the gap....if your grout joints are more than butted then you'll probably want to add sand to the grout mix as well and a water-proofing agent/sealer. all available at either homepro or Global House or suppliers.

The way I've described is much easier, faster and cheaper when you consider all the cement, sand, labor to remove and re-do. yes, the thinset adhesive is a bit more expensive, about 120 baht/20 kg, notched trowel/60 baht.......

It's been several days since I posted a "better way" without any positive response/reply so I will leave it with the "do-it-yourselfer's", as this forum is appropriately named, to do the way Lopburi3 recommends and when your tiles start cracking, poping up, etc., you can call your tile man back and re-do it again.

and for TheMysteriousMrTesla, who said "where Excaliber went wrong"....read my lips..........it's my opinion/recommendations based on my experience only and I guess maybe I should apologize to you for not delivering it the way you think best, but I won't.........if you can improve on the techniques I've suggested then maybe you have a voice.....but to tell me how to word my posts is ludicrous, immature & self-righteous..........is this a 'public relations' forum post or how to do something related to tile?

A forum for do-it-yourselfer's is just that, Do it yourself and trust information from other inexperienced people...you can't go wrong.

Noob that I am, I too sometimes wonder about the responses to professional advice, I have none to give (I'm an ex-wireless operator) so I'm always on the receiving end

That said, I would have reservations about adding a layer over existing tile unless it was demonstrably sound. Perhaps where excaliber went wrong was to respond to the flame. Maybe he would have been better with the calm rational approach to the 'what about' and 'what if' responses, after all he is a professional and should make professional descisions based on his wide experience.

Anyway, my 2c worth, I'll get my coat.

EDIT AFAIK the forum mods are unpaid, so there is no ulterior motive in their actions.

You're absolutely right, Noob....As a professional, I "should have responded with clear and precise instructions, photos, details, etc., as a professional, being paid would....but the expectations of some of the members on this forum are a joke......ask some of the members that have been here 20 years how they sorted things out....there's was no thaivisa forum or easy access so one had to be creative, adventurous, etc. These days, people get on the internet and want everything for free....example: Wanna & Wannaboon......he wants detailed foundations & structural drawings "for free or as cheap as possible". Over the years I've seen many freeloaders....they want to build a decent house but don't want to pay for the "instructions", plans, etc....sure, things are supposed to be cheaper over here and most things are, although, a decent architect, builder, interior designer, furniture maker, etc., will cost you money. Why try to deceive and manipulate people into giving you the benefit of their experience for free? Here, if you want cheap, you get cheap. you want quality, you have to pay for it.

Once in a while if you're attentive, someone will post some really good information although this forum isn't the last resort for information.

i have asked you serious questions and you get so upset and dont want to explain to us.

all you do is keep abusing me.

very sad really.

Serious questions? upset? abusing you? ...I just receive a pm from another forum member, his words,

"Good job I agree with you, I always wonder why I bother to post helpful info here".

Senior Member

Joined: 2004

Maybe the people who run this forum should make an attempt to make it more 'user/giver friendly'.

and what happened to the original poster? I was trying to answer HIS questions, not respond to your sniveling.....

so what about when UKfool goes into another room in his house (presuming he has some) does he step from the raised floor down into that room?

With your 3D capabilities, you should be able to produce a simple floor, thresholds, step-downs/ups, baseboard, etc... I see you're perfectly fine with preparing 3D renderings for people, for free...that's a great service you provide, and Crossy with his free government house plans.

Unfortunately I like to get paid for 'my work'. Whether it's spending time advising, preparing house designs, plans, etc., if possible.

I've made an attempt, once again to share my experience & knowledge on this forum and once again, kicked in the teeth, ....meaning....."your way would never work", what about this and what about that".....come on guys, no imagination or is your agenda bleeding people for knowledge to get you some extra points or bonus if you're a paid moderator....I could spend more time on this forum if people were more receptive and less defensive or smug.

I see a lot of mis-information given on this forum without rejection or ridicule... I guess some of us have been here too long. ......as I suggested; do a google search for: "how to install new tile over existing tile" or whatever.

that's because you have little imagination and experience. The BIG door issue is resolved by increasing the thickness of the threshold and yes, trimming the bottom of the door. You can buy cheap aluminum ones with rubber seals or use a nice wooden one depending on your design....and of course the baseboards need to be moved up for a clean job....but you're right, Just because someone has a lifetime of experience (40 years) in construction, doesn't mean they know everything.....I'm still learning. ...I've used this process in many projects: Industrial, Commercial, Residential.....both in the states and here. When you see the finished product/room, you can't see any faults or "disaster". I guess some improvements don't travel well. I was doing this process 25 years ago with complete success.....In addition, I know this because this is my job, livelihood, etc., whatever you want to call it....but I don't claim to know-it-all....Phew, I though it was difficult trying to get thai workers to understand the processs.....you guys are a tough lot !!! I will soon be making videos of how-to cover up existing floors with tile, wood, stained concrete, acid etching, etc.....

Thanks for the clarification Excaliber.

In your opinion, is all the additional work with doors, baseboards and thresholds worth the time/effort saved on the flooring itself. There must be a break-even point where removing the old becomes more economical.

ok. I thought you were more experienced with construction, concrete, etc.

The process I described is done in many parts of the world. Personally, I've done it in the U.S., Singapore, Hong Kong & Thailand without any problems.

and since you deleted my posts, I have deleted the process and instructions before posting this. As I was "spelling-it-out", my wife asked me what I was doing. I told her I was trying to convince some people that the process of laying tile, wood, etc., over existing tile worked. She's seen it done many times so she knows it works, then she said, why are you wasting your time....that's when I deleted the process/instructions, etc.....after many years, I still am of the belief that this forum doesn't want/ accept professional help., i.e., if it hasn't been done by an expat with little or no experience then it's not possible or acceptable.

exactly crossy, thoe ONLY way of doing a proper job of it is to remove the existing tiles and start again.

that's because you have little imagination and experience. The BIG door issue is resolved by increasing the thickness of the threshold and yes, trimming the bottom of the door. You can buy cheap aluminum ones with rubber seals or use a nice wooden one depending on your design....and of course the baseboards need to be moved up for a clean job....but you're right, Just because someone has a lifetime of experience (40 years) in construction, doesn't mean they know everything.....I'm still learning. ...I've used this process in many projects: Industrial, Commercial, Residential.....both in the states and here. When you see the finished product/room, you can't see any faults or "disaster". I guess some improvements don't travel well. I was doing this process 25 years ago with complete success.....In addition, I know this because this is my job, livelihood, etc., whatever you want to call it....but I don't claim to know-it-all....Phew, I though it was difficult trying to get thai workers to understand the processs.....you guys are a tough lot !!! I will soon be making videos of how-to cover up existing floors with tile, wood, stained concrete, acid etching, etc.....

Your question, Splitlid, was rhetoric, unless you think the information I posted is bogus. and now we're into name calling ?

Look, I'm making another attempt to help inexperienced people who genuinely ask for help, but for some reason, for that past several years, there's always someone like you who takes the fun out of trying to help others. You don't have to believe the process works, that's your choice. If you ask any professional tile setter from the west you may not feel bullied again. To you and any others who don't want or reject my advice, ignore it and move on, you know what they say, "ignorance is bliss".

As I said in the OP already.The tiles are scrubbed once a week with vixol or a similar product.

At the moment I'm using a steel brush on a drill machine to get the dark colour removed and it works but it's a hard job.

I just wonder where the stains come from.

Well, you know what they say, "Experience is the best teacher".... Vixol has muratic acid which disolves the glazed surface of the tile rendering them porous. (ruins toilet bowls as well, dissolves the porcelain.

So the more you use the stuff, the faster they become impregnated with dirt, algae, etc. It appears you've past the point of no return, i.e., not much you can do about it now except for covering the existing tile with new tile, marble, granite, etc., using the process I mentioned in another post. No need to tear the old tile out.

It can be done in a a couple few days depending how good you are and if you're using the right tools & materials.. might as well do the floor also...

I would not allow my contractor to lay new tiles in this manner. Problem is not on quality of adhesive, but on how you are to terminate a 3/4 inch higher floor level at the doorway to the floor of another room.

If I am to spend money to lay new tiles, I will get it done the proper way. Hack off the old tiles plus an inch of the old screed and then lay on the new tiles to flush with floors of adjoining areas.

to properly finish off the doorway threshold or existing floor, a nicely sanded strip of hardwood beveled on one side is an alternative if installing new tiles over the existing ones. There are cement based thinset adhesives available at most good building supply stores for applying the new tile with a notched trowel (as already mentioned). Also, you can use the same mastic used for applying wood floors to existing tile/concrete.

We want to take out the tiles and have the concrete floors polished but have NO idea where to look. A few of the local guys looked at our photos and said yes but admit they have never done it before... no thanks.

Anyone done this and ended up with a good result?

If the tiles were originally installed the traditional way with a thin bed of concrete then you'll be pulling most of the concrete up in chunks when you attempt to take out the tiles and will ultimately have to lay another bed of concrete.

If you can build on top of the existing floor (rough it up first with a grinder for better adhesion and/or use an epoxy or latex based concrete mix) by adding a minimum of 2" then you can finish it off with terrazzo which is essentially, polished concrete with colored rocks & white cement....OR, just tear it all out and pour another slab with a slick trowel finish (not the traditional way of finishing the surface with a thin mix of cement & water that leaves the surface weak) but first using a wood trowel, then a a slick, finishing trowel, then you can polish it with a 'terrazzo polishing machine" if you want or if the concrete surface is done properly, you won't need the machine.

There are always several ways to complete the same job. If you live in Isaan, it's usually "Mock Ngai", i.e., fast & dirty as they say in the west. If you want it done right, the first time, then you must hire a competent & skilled crew to do the job or babysit & train as you go along although that would be my last choice.