bureaucrazy

Mate, have read the relevant material, I think you are clutching at straws relying the legal argument and precedence referred to

by "* factors preventing the sponsor from joining the applicant in the applicant's own country;"

Ok thanks. I know you guys are well intentioned and I do appreciate your taking the time to express your opinion, So I don't mean any offense but I think maybe you're used to responding to "let me google that for you" type migration queries.

This is but one item in an exhaustive submission. I posted here specifically about my relocating to thailand, because I thought some expats might be able to direct me to some resource I hadn't thought of.

I'm not relying on some obscure precedent and a single dot point in a list of criteria. I FOI'd PAM3 so I could see exactly what criteria my case officer or the AAT needs to consider, and I'm diligently addressing any factors which are even vaguely relevant. I've reviewed boatloads of cases which have gone before the AAT, to see what factors the decision makers have found significant. I only posted these two cases because I was asked to explain why I was asking.

My partner has significant assets, her health prognosis is good, and there's no doubt she will be well employed in Australia, so she may well be able to get the waiver in her own right. I can evidence these factors ad absurdium, so there's no point wasting your time explaining all the stuff I already have in hand.

As I said I appreciate your opinion, and I usually don't feel the need to defend myself to strangers on the internet, but I guess on this occasion I'm quite invested in the situation so it's disheartning to be told I'm "clutching at straws".

There are a number of head hunting companies in BKK whose services include placing

Westerners; why not contact a few of them with your CV / profile and ask for email

response of likelihood of a placement in Thailand. Can also take a look at the

Thai Oz FTA that talks to professions available to Oz citizens in Thailand under the agreement

Cool thanks, might have a go at this.

not sure why you are asking for help when you seem to know it all then.

I wasn't asking for help figuring out my situation, my post was asking for ideas about evidencing the difficulties in my relocating to Thailand.

Id be getting an agent to help you out...

The aus immigration doesnt care how it affects you/your job prospects if you dont get the waiver.

Basically the dept of immigration / border farce has to make a cost / benefit analysis of the cost of granting a health waiver vs not granting it.

Link?

@Larz2013 : demonstrably incorrect sorry.. I've sought advice from several lawyers specialising in immigration law, and I work in a semi related field.

@Larz2013 & @Supaluke

There's a litany of matters heard by the MRTA / AAT, but to pick a few:

• Dougal
• Abcdeav

If you're interested in the legislation, you're looking for public interest criteria 4007 s2 provides:

             (2)  The Minister may waive the requirements of paragraph (1)(c) if:
                     (a)  the applicant satisfies all other criteria for the grant of the visa applied for; and
                     (  the Minister is satisfied that the granting of the visa would be unlikely to result in:
                              (i)  undue cost to the Australian community; or
                             (ii)  undue prejudice to the access to health care or community services of an Australian citizen or permanent resident.

2bi is the relevant clause.. that's the cost / benefit part - they need to examine the cost of approving the waiver vs that of not approving. The proposition being that I will move to Thailand if the waiver is not granted.

Also the departments Procedures Advice Manual, which I can't link because it's not available online, runs thusly:

Other factors
Other factors that should be taken into account include (but are not limited to):
* the education and occupational needs of, and prospects for, the applicant in Australia over the whole period of intended stay;
* the potential for the applicant's state of health to deteriorate, taking into account not only the known medical factors but also influences such as the strains of adjusting to a new environment, life-style, occupation etc (as applicable to the visa class and the individual);
* the overall lifetime (or lesser period according to the intended length of stay) charge to Australian public funds;
* factors preventing the sponsor from joining the applicant in the applicant's own country;
* whether there are Australian children of the relationship who would be adversely affected by a decision not to waive;
* the location and circumstances of family members of the applicant and the sponsor;
* the merits of the case eg the strength of any humanitarian or compassionate factors (reasonable weight is to be given to humanitarian circumstances).
* the immigration history of the applicant and sponsor, including eg compliance to date with immigration requirements and any undertakings.

Item 4 being the relevant one. Generally sponsors in my position refer to the limited availability of health care, the limited employment prospects, and the difficulties in naturalisation.

Some other stuff you should probably check: Dunning Kruger Effect

So I've applied for a partner visa for Australia for the little lady, she has failed the health criteria and now we need to apply for a health waiver. We always knew that this was going to happen so this certainly doesn't come as a suprise and I think we have the situation fairly well in hand.

Basically the dept of immigration / border farce has to make a cost / benefit analysis of the cost of granting a health waiver vs not granting it. Given that I'm an Australian citizen, they have to consider the negative impact to me, if the waiver is not granted. The assumption is that if the waiver is not granted I would relocate to thailand so that I could be closer to my beloved.

Soo.. in Australia I have a Bachelor of Finance, am a registered tax agent, and have a relevant full time job. Clearly, if I were to relocate to thailand my job prospects would plummet.. the question is, whether there is any way I can evidence that.

So the surrounding facts are:

* I don't speak Thai
* My qualifications are not useful in Thailand
* It's very difficult to get an appropriate visa to work in Thailand
* Even if I can work, my salary would be significantly less than what I earn in Australia.

Even though this stuff is pretty obvious, the health waiver process is one of those bureaucratic situations in which you want to sink them with an overwhelming volume of proof to back up your assertions.

I've made a few enquiries on this front but I'm pretty stuck.. A letter from someone in a related field in Thailand would be nice but as I'm sure you know Thais are extremely reluctant with the letter writing thing.

Thanks for any thoughts or advice you might have.

https://www.border.gov.au/about/corporate/information/fact-sheets/35relationship

You can always register your relationship in OZ at anytime until up to decision is made.

Check with your local state. In QLD only one needs to reside to register it. Therefore you bypass all need to prove defacto, by which sounds like you have submitted enough. 9 stat decs should be plenty plus your other evidence.

Good advice.. I had looked into this before, but I think that here in West Aus we're SOL because there's no relationship declaration register here. At this point I realise we should've just gotten married. We live and learn I guess.

We had no joint bank account or any document with both our names on it for that matter. All I had was the monthly 15-20k

coming out of my bank a/c into hers.

Thanks so much for posting.. this makes me feel a whole lot better about the situation. I mean I've spent absurd amounts of time looking into this, even before we submitted the application, and then we got such a weird response from the CO, kind of freaked both of us right out. Basically everything I've read anywhere says 'abc' and the CO calls my gf and says 'cde', and refuses to provide any additional information.

I'd already decided I was dealing with a box ticker who was struggling to understand the content of many of the documents we submitted, but in another thread here someone reassured me that someone else would review my CO's work before a decision was made.. so I'm sure we will get through it.

Personal rant: We're both really feeling the pressure. It sounds silly and I know almost all of you have gone through exactly the same thing, so I'm not trying to cry "hard done by" at all.. anyhow, it's such a surreal feeling to hand over all this documentation to someone who's going to somehow decide whether we have a 'proper' relationship. In addition, the outcome of that decision has such a huge impact on the rest of my life. It's just bizarre. /rant

Again.. thanks for posting, glad to hear to you got your visa.. congrats!

I hope you'se sent the information requested by the CO.

That's what I'm struggling with. We gave them a boatload of evidence, as well as very detailed explanatory notes and statements from people regarding why some evidence (eg: a joint lease agreement) is not available. But the request I got basically says "evidence of de facto relationship eg: lease agreement".

I do have some additional information I can submit.. but I don't have a lease agreement more than 12 months old. Someone at my work suggested sending the few additional documents I have (obviously), and to include some of the evidence I originally submitted, just to make sure that the CO has at least seen it.

In any case, one of the requested items was an australian police clearance, which takes time for them to issue, and then to post to BKK, so I've requested an extention for the time to submit.

Thanks for the reply.. Yep it's Australia sorry.

I mentioned in my post, I filled out the 956 and 956a which authorise me to assist my gf with the application, and to receive correspondence on her behalf.

It's now 17 days since my original request for them to call me, and just today I received an email from the decision maker which was just a cut & paste from the original request for additional information. My email requested a phone call, and they've just emailed me and haven't said "we're not going to call you".

In addition, I totally understand that this person has a lot of control over my future. In any other circumstance I'd try throwing my weight around, but I'm terrified of putting this person off side.

It's a very frustrating situation to be in, because IMO it wasn't possible to be more thorough and diligent with the evidence and notes we submitted originally. Usually I'm the last person to insult someone's english abilities, but I honestly feel as though my decision maker doesn't understand a lot of what was submitted.. and is just looking for easily recognisable stuff like bank statements and utility bills.

I posted a bunch of details about our visa application here if you're interested.

Basically, the officer processing our visa has requested some additional evidence but it doesn't make much sense in the context of what we've already provided them.

14 days ago today I emailed the immi...bangkok@dfat address asking them to contact me by phone, but I've not heard anything back.

When we submitted my gf's application we submitted it with the 956 & 956a forms which I had thought authorised immigration to liaise with me regarding some aspects of the application.

When the migration officer spoke to my gf (before I emailed this request), my gf asked them to call me, but the officer said it's her application so they would only speak to her about it. That doesn't make much sense to me.. sure they may want to interview her, but if she's entitled to appoint a representative to assist with the application, why would immigration be unable to discuss submissionns with that representative.

To put my question succinctly, can I reasonably expect the officer processing the application to contact me, or am I just wasting my time?

I just found this MRT case which is really similar to our own situation. Basically loads of evidence in stat decs et cetera covering the whole 12 mth period, but tenancy agreement and bank statements etc for less than that period.

The decision officer found that they weren't in a defacto relationship, but the review tribunal found "overwhelming evidence" of the defacto relationship.

I don't know if this is good news for me or not. I mean it's good to know that the review tribunal would find in our favour, but it demonstrates that a decision officer could make things very difficult for us. I really don't want this to go to the review tribunal.

Hey thanks, it sure is a fairly unpleasant process.

Regarding the stat decs we've already done exactly that with the original application. I'm going to send in the recent bank statements and lease agreements.

I'm anxious to speak to the immigration officer reviewing our application, I think that will give me a better idea of what I'm up against.

Thanks for taking the time to reply, and good luck with your application.

Hey there,

I’ve been a long time lurker on Thai visa, but I’ve never needed to ask questions before because every question I’ve had thus far has been answered either here or elsewhere online. Anyhow, I’m now faced with a delicate situation with the dept of immigration, and I’m feeling pressured because a slight mis-step might have irreversible consequences.

Basically it appears that the officer reviewing my partner’s application is unwilling to accept the evidence we’ve provided as adequate evidence of a de-facto relationship.

The back story…

• my partner applied for a partner visa (defacto) in April

• it was three years since we’d first moved in together when we submitted the application

• We first met when I was in Thailand for 7 months, and lived together for 5 months or so at that time.

• By the time we submitted the application she’d been in Autralia for 1 year spread across 2 years on four tourist visas, and she’s been here once more for three months since we applied.

• We’ve lived together for more than half the time since we first met, any other separation has been temporary separation due to visa restrictions and my job keeping me here in Australia.

Also.. this is vaguely relevant below so I’ll mention here, my partner was diagnosed with HIV about a year after I met her. There’s obvious connotations for our visa application, but I’m well acquainted with the process and having reviewed the matter, and sought qualified advice, the chances of us obtaining a health waiver are very good. In any case, this health concern is not today’s problem.

So based on this I was initially unsure whether a de facto application would work for us because we simply don’t have a single document with both our names on it which is more than 12 months old. I spent loads of time investigating the situation online, and I even sought paid advice from a specialist in immigration law.

The basic situation which I’m sure many of you know is that there’s broadly four categories of evidence the immigration officer needs to satisfy in order for us to meet the de facto criteria, one of which being co-mingled financial affairs. The DIAC provides examples of documentation which would substantiate our financial arrangements, notably utilities in joint names, a tenancy agreement in joint names, a joint bank account, et cetera.

The advice I received was that a key part of any application is an explanation of why particular evidence may not exist or be available. So you might say, any specific application is likely to be weak in one or more areas, but it’s important to explain why that evidence may not be available. I considered the evidence I could provide, and decided that whilst we were light on the financial stuff, it would be difficult for any reasonable person faced with the evidence we provided, to conclude that we’re not in a defacto relationship.

On those grounds we proceeded with the de facto application and provided the following evidence regarding our finances:

• Evidence of support, when I’d transferred money to my gf’s account. Although, after the first year or so we just started taking cash with us every time we went to thailand because the exchange rate was so much better. So for example on a day where she has an itinerary departing Australia, I’ve withdrawn $5k in cash from my bank account. In the last few years the only times I’ve withdrawn > $200 cash has been on dates where the gf has been departing Australia, and there’s a significant cash withdrawal on every day she has departed.

• About a year before we submitted the application, I asked my property manager if I could include my partner on a new lease. This property manager was a recalcitrant so and so and refused to add her to the lease on the grounds that “because she’s not an australian resident she’s not allowed to sign a lease”.. preposterous I know, but there’s no point arguing with an imbecile of that magnitude. In any case, I included emails back and forth regarding this subject in our application. So we don’t have a lease agreement from that time, but you can see I tried to submit a joint application.

• I sought legal advice regarding a pre nuptual agreement approximately two years before we submitted the application. I didn’t actually obtain a pre nup at that time. I did get a letter from the lawyer, confirming that I sought legal advice regarding a pre nup for my partner.

• I sought financial advice regarding life insurance and income protection insurance at about the same time as the pre nup. My partner’s HIV status effects my income protection insurance. I got a letter from the financial adviser confirming that I sought financial advice in the context of a de facto relationship.

• I sought medical advice regarding carrying on a relationship with a person living with HIV, about two years before submitting the application. I got a letter from my doctor confirming that I’d discussed this.

• I got a boat load of stat decs from friends and family.. 9 in total. These are from people who have visited our house and confirm that our living arrangements are comparable to that of any de facto couple.

• We did try to open a joint bank account a while back, but my partner had arrived in Australia more than 6 weeks prior to our visiting the bank, so was required to get birth certificates et cetera. At that time we decided to wait until her next visit, but that occurred in April, after we submitted the application.

• I included extensive notes, and a stat dec from myself, explaining why we didn’t have a joint bank account.

There’s a bunch of other evidence we submitted, which I consider very strong, but it’s less relevant to the co-mingled financial stuff than the above.

The basic problem is that since we met, we’ve just been carrying on a relationship which has developed along a natural course. In hindsight I should’ve looked into the partner visa thing in advance, but at the time we were just taking it day by day as people do. It would’ve been a 30 minute job to go open a joint bank account, but there was never any practical reason to do so, so we didn’t.

Anyhow yesterday my partner got a call from an immigration officer who said that based on the evidence we submitted our application would be denied as we do not meet the criteria for a defacto relationship. The officer also had some stuff to say about my partner’s HIV status which was IMO inappropriate, unnecessary, and quite unprofessional, but that’s another story.

My partner told the officer to call me, but the officer said they couldn’t as it was my partner’s visa application not mine. We submitted the relevant 956 & 956a forms with the application, which I had thought authorised me to represent my partner to immigration?

Anyhow, I’ve received the official notification from dept of immigration informing my partner of the additional information required. The letter basically says they need a tenancy agreement or utility bill or bank statement in joint names, from more than 12 months prior to our submitting the application.

I sent an email requesting a call back.. I want to confirm that they’ve considered all the evidence I’ve provided, and also just discuss with the officer reviewing our application.

There’s some stuff I can submit.. but none of it strictly fits the criteria in question:

• in January (three months prior to our application) I moved into a house owned by my parents. I drew up a tenancy agreement in joint names. I never submitted this with our application because, well, my partner wasn’t in Australia when I moved in, so she either had to date her signature in March, or date it in January and say the agreement was posted to Thailand for her to sign at that time. Both options seemed a little thin, and I knew it was less than the 12 month requirement, so at the time, rightly or wrongly, I decided not to include it in our application.

• In April (the month after we submitted our application) we opened a joint bank account. My weekly salary is deposited into that account and we pay our bills et cetera from there.

• This is really thin… but about 2 years before we submitted our application I renewed my fishing license and got one for my partner also. Yesterday I contacted department of fisheries and got them to email me receipts, issued to each of us on the same day showing the same address, but they’re two separate receipts.

• In the last few months there’s been a bunch of other financial stuff posted to my partner, at our residential address. This stuff is not in joint names.

I’ll send all of the above.

So… if you’ve bothered to read thus far, you’re a champion and I really do appreciate you taking the time. Having written all this out I realise I don’t really have any specific questions. Maybe I’m just venting, and I guess a little emotional support wouldn’t hurt, but I’d really like to hear how this compares to your own experience.

Is my officer just being a recalcitrant stick in the mud? Is this the ordinary course? Do you think the officer is likely to approve? Was I completely wrong about the likelihood of meeting the defacto criteria?

How do you abduct someone on a motorcycle? Who holds her down if she is being held against her will?

Do you see this as some sort of evidence that she wasn't held against her will ?

I'm guessing a tap on the head would subdue a drunken teenager enough for her to be propped up on a bike between two guys.

Nobody wants them to starve at sea, and I don't think any country intended for that to happen.. (hence providing food & water), but it's not surprising no one was rushing out there to scoop them up in a drop ship and "rescue" them.

It's easy enough to look at pictures of them starving on boats and assume that they're victims of cruelty, but I don't imagine for a second that they're entirely blameless in their plight. It's difficult to know what you can believe, but there's certainly some reports floating around of their antisocial behaviour in Burma. If you desecrate a buddha statue in a buddhist country, you're going to get some push back.

Anyhow, I find it noteworthy that Burma has refused to be involved in any discussion about resolving the issue. If any rohingyas are found to be legitimate refugees during the verification process, then that would result in sanctions for Burma - but the Burmese don't seem to think there's even a possibility of that. Again, I'm sure the burmese aren't entirely blameless, but they seem pretty confident that there's no chance the rohingyas will be found to be legitimate refugees.

Pros

• Live in Thailand with possible income
• Social interaction

Cons

• No income security. There's so many threats to your income which you have no control over.
• No asset security. I don't mean just getting ripped off by your Thai GF, I mean the value of the land and buildings is subject to fluctuations.
• Constantly having to pay off police and other officials
• Significant threats from business partners regarding asset protection (you have very little protection from the actions of your business partners).
• Significant threats from staff to your cash, and good will.
• Very little opportunity to delegate responsibilities. You have to constantly oversee your staff to maintain adequate standards of service. No chance of delegating management of online activities.
• Significant costs of entry / sunk costs.

I'm an accountant in Australia, my Mrs is Thai and we regularly holiday in Thailand. I often look at foreigners trying to battle it out in hospitality going toe to toe with Thai's, and I think the odds are really stacked against them.

That said, hospitality in any country is about passion more than it is about money I think. Sure, if you're passionate enough about what you do then you'll be successful. But I really think that if you're looking to make some money, there must be easier ways.

Good advice Anthony.

Who's Anthony ??

Pros

• Live in Thailand with possible income
• Social interaction

Cons

• No income security. There's so many threats to your income which you have no control over.
• No asset security. I don't mean just getting ripped off by your Thai GF, I mean the value of the land and buildings is subject to fluctuations.
• Constantly having to pay off police and other officials
• Significant threats from business partners regarding asset protection (you have very little protection from the actions of your business partners).
• Significant threats from staff to your cash, and good will.
• Very little opportunity to delegate responsibilities. You have to constantly oversee your staff to maintain adequate standards of service. No chance of delegating management of online activities.
• Significant costs of entry / sunk costs.

I'm an accountant in Australia, my Mrs is Thai and we regularly holiday in Thailand. I often look at foreigners trying to battle it out in hospitality going toe to toe with Thai's, and I think the odds are really stacked against them.

That said, hospitality in any country is about passion more than it is about money I think. Sure, if you're passionate enough about what you do then you'll be successful. But I really think that if you're looking to make some money, there must be easier ways.

The people who know everything know nothing. We don't know what we don't know. I am a lot more intuitive than the average person and do practice Reiki. Human beings are amazing. Anybody who believes we were made in the image of God should believe this. Any meditator knows this. And, yes, there have been documented instances of prayer healing. It has been proven it affects the brain. It also has been proven that meditation changes our brain. The famous director, David Lynch, practices Transcendental Meditation and he and others pay to have inner city kids taught TM and the benefits have been proven scientifically.

Just because you don't believe doesn't mean it isn't true.

Enjoy your lady!

No one is claiming to know everything, and nobody would say that the human body is not amazing.

Meditation is not faith healing. You are correct in that there's loads of evidence of the benefits of the prior, however I maintain that there is no empirical evidence of the benefits or efficacy of the latter.

There is a darker side to all this. There is a litany of examples in which parents have, through reliance on faith healing, brought about the deaths of their children.

Personally, I feel that a reasonable level of skepticism when examining any claim or belief is a healthy response of an intelligent person. Without such skepticism, you're left with blind faith which is in my opinion fodder for zealots, extremists, and idiots.

Short pregnancy.

Yeah, together in April-May 2013 and baby born end of 2013--7 or 8 months?

Personally, I'd get to the bottom of this before you went through the whole paternity test thing.

Ask yourself, which practice is evidence-based? Would you try something that has no label, no studies undertaken? And, even if you think that "distant healing" actually can work, it also means that it can do harm if it is not properly used. Just like every other intervention that is actually effective.

Spot on..

What did the experts at the hospital say about the miraculous kidney growth? What was their explanation? Did you tell them about the remote faith healing?

Hey it's awesome that your dog is feeling better.. but you don't seriously believe that remote "faith" healing could have been the cause do you?

The thing about alternative medicine is that if there was any measurable benefit to it at all, then it would no longer be alternative.. it would just be medicine.

Basically, your dog was diagnosed with "no kidneys", you undertook a remote faith healing treatment therapy, and now your dog has kidneys. Looking at this logically, there's two possibilities, firstly the original diagnosis of not having kidneys was incorrect, or secondly the faith healing allowed your dog to spontaneously grow kidneys. There are numerous well documented cases of the prior (misdiagnosis) and not a single documented case of the latter.

As I said, I'm really glad your dog is on the mend.. but personally I find it hard to understand why anyone would ascribe the recovery to reiki, when it really seems the least plausible possibility.

There's so many different things which could cause this... but I guess broadly the problems would fall into two categories. The VPN has crummy bandwidth / throughput, or the VPN has high latency.

To check the latency first, and if it's not that then the problem is probably throughput.

To check the latency...

• first figure out how to ping something
• then turn off the vpn and ping something (probably whatever server you were trying to use with the VPN)
• then turn on the vpn and ping that same server

If there's a big change in the times then the VPN is causing a latency problem.

Based on your comment, I have no idea what you're trying to do.. but obviously if you're sitting in Chiang Mai trying to access thaijobjob.com via a vpn with an endpoint in the US, then sending your data around the world "in transit" is going to slow down your connection. Many VPN services provide a variety of endpoints, so you might be able to change it.

I think long term the fishing industry is finished as more and more radiation seeps into the pacific from fukushima , The disaster has been ongoing for four years and no government wants anything to do with it news is limited as the fear of panic may arise in populations the world over forget fish as the oceans are joined.

What gammon,the oceans maybe joined but there is such a thing as currents,why do you think most of the stuff sucked away by the tusnami,has ended up in the north pacific and washed up on the west coast of Canada,Usa,the reason the thai fishing industry will destroy itself is by overfishing,exactly what they are doing right now.

@shirtless .. do you have any reliable source for your paranoia over radioactive fish? Sounds like nonsense to me.

@marko kok prong .. spot on re: overfishing. My mrs (thai) refuses to believe that it's possible for humans to reduce the number of fish in the sea through fishing. It's a bit of a sore spot because she's absolutely gutted at the thought of throwing back an undersized fish in Aus.

would also invite Thai women into the room to consume the drugs.

I wonder wh the tip off was from, anyway, this guy is a twit and would know the harsh punishments here for doing this, it was his choice.

The guy's an idiot for sure..

I love how they make these guys have their photo taken while pointing at the gear. Good stuff.