Fore Man

15 minutes ago, Mianoinadme said:

+ 1. Spot on. It sounds very understandable to me. 

But...many of these operators use tandem yokes that are designed to suspend two passengers. It still doesn't explain why the Thai crew member climbed on and rode aloft, apparently not clipped into the yoke. If he subsequently clambered on top of the deceased, that added weight could have pressed down on the deceased with much greater force, causing the (possibly worn) leg straps to unravel and pass through their retaining adapters.  Thus the man could have fallen under gravity downwards and into the water. It's a stretch and only one possible explanation. 

40 minutes ago, transam said:

Did he have leg straps...?...I saw those flapping in the wind.....

You saw the loose ends of the straps...they were clipped into their mating D-rings on the harness....how securely is the issue. 

33 minutes ago, jane1 said:

Thank you, Fore Man for this technical detail. It is what I had been looking for since I first read the news about the tragedy yesterday. I did not understand how the man could've released his own harness in air (as suggested) since it had both the legs strapped in as well as the chest area secured. Is it possible, then, that the leg straps could have failed under strain, then he just slid out of the entire harness? In the video, we see his life jacked clipped on over the harness. 

Yes, it would be possible.  But it's only my educated guess. I just don't have enough solid detail yet.

In response to Transam's post at the bottom of page 5, Please refer to my post # 68.  But this possible explanation doesn't hold water if the deceased fell to his death while still wearing the harness. If that is true, then something else other than failed leg straps caused the problem.  In that case, I posted a possible explanation in an earlier post (#144) in the original form topic covering the incident. 

I see this topic has transcended to this newest version...

I am beginning to believe that the leg straps failed.  And the deceased simply fell vertically  with nothing else to keep himself soundly secured.  Had they failed, it would be an explanation as to why he suddenly reached out to grab the riser.   If you look at the leg straps just prior to launch, there are no elastic retaining keepers to be seen and the loose ends of both leg straps are dangling free down his legs. The retainers simply allow the excess free ends to be properly folded and stowed.  The ends of properly rigged straps will be rolled over in three thicknesses and overstitched so as to prevent them from sliding through the friction adapter buckle.  This friction adapter buckle is used to take up the slack after clipping into the mating D-ring on the harness.  The friction adapters built-in to the buckle design themselves consist of a sliding metal cam faced with gripping teeth... they might have been badly worn, or more likely the webbing itself was also worn and could slide through the adapter easily, particularly under load. I'd sure like to inspect the ends of those leg straps and the friction adapter hardware that was intended to stay in position but possibly didn't.  It could account entirely for this tragedy. I can't see what type of buckle is used in the video, and there are newer designs used in various chutes, such those intended for parasoaring.  Some harnesses are step-in and custom made for the owner. But the shoddy appearing harness we see in the video clearly has adjustable leg straps. We just don't know their age or serviceability. 

Attached is a photo of a typical, older style leg strap and its cadmium-coated B-12 buckling hardware.  This design found its way into tens of thousands of civilian and military skydiving rigs and is pretty much goof proof if maintained properly...a big if.  In the West, these systems must be inspected periodically and serviced only by a licensed parachute rigger; in the USA, this license is issued only by the FAA.  Also in the USA, only a licensed master rigger is authorized to manufacture or modify parts of a harness.  I doubt if there is such overwatch or regulation in Thailand. Notice how the free end is rolled and stitched. If there is an elastic retaining keeper, it's not evident in the photo, but normally added.  If those features are missing due to wear and/or neglect, there's an accident surely waiting to happen.

2 hours ago, happyas said:

 Have you seen the video here?

 

As an obviously well informed on this subject person what do you see went wrong?

 

Myself, its obvious that "something" was amiss right from the start, as is evident by the ground crew trying to indicate a problem, before takeoff, but exactly what i don't know.

 

 

Happyas,

I've looked that video over repeatedly and it's just not sufficiently detailed in the launch and its immediate aftermath to determine what might have gone wrong. I did ask a good friend in the States, also a highly experienced military freefall parachutist, to give me his own assessment. Here's what he had to say:

"

There did not appear to be vertical or diagonal back webbing. But I'm not sure if that was the issue. (But probably would be in the future with a smaller passenger) The victim seemed to slip straight down after the pilot/assistant swung forward into the harness area. If he slipped out the back I suspect that there would have been a half flip or tumble. What you cannot see is if the quick connects to the tow/canopy released. Since that seemed to be rigged as a combination system. The victim hung on to the the straps that he is holding on the beach prior to launch. It's as if there was no passenger weight suspended by the harness at all. While on the beach they seem to attach a quick link to the tow rope then connect that to the harness. (An assistant comes from off camera connects then leaves) If I were looking for a failure point I would go to those connections first. There did not seem to be a harness still attached to the system as he fell, so he was still wearing it I suspect."

My friend's final sentence above is crucial.  It's begs the question that assuming the deceased fell with his harness still fastened around his body, how then did the outrider make it safely back to the surface?  Was he at that point merely hanging on the chute's risers...which are two paired straps of webbing that connect the shroud lines to hardware fittings that then connect to the harness?  Or did he have a Hail Mary, jury-rigged connection to the risers himself? This scenario implies that the outrider or the deceased would have had to jettison...intentionally or by tragic mistake...the deceased from his connection to the parachute.  If so, then the tow line remained connected to the risers, meaning  that it was not connected to the deceased' harness.  We readers cannot tell but a much more detailed forensic analysis of the video and the equipment might point to how it all unfolded. So tragic no matter how it happened, and it is vital that investigators root out exactly why it occurred and force revised procedures to preclude any recurrences. Will this happen here?  I certainly hope so.

i found a useful reference on the Web that illustrates a typical, approved towline connection to the parasail. It's not clear if this exact design was employed by the Phuket operators. It does show that a safe system connects the chute risers directly to the towline, and the passenger is connected to the risers via hardware mounting points that should have an extremely tensile strength that well exceeds the physical forces imposed on them.  If the deceased actually fell to his death wearing his harness, then the only way this could happen is if his mounting point hardware either failed or was intentionally released. Beyond these explanations, I have nothing else to offer the forum.

2 hours ago, happyas said:

 Have you seen the video here?

 

As an obviously well informed on this subject person what do you see went wrong?

 

Myself, its obvious that "something" was amiss right from the start, as is evident by the ground crew trying to indicate a problem, before takeoff, but exactly what i don't know.

 

 

8 hours ago, happyas said:

 

I get what you are saying ,and don't disagree with your info but , hey these and other guys have been doing this for many years, many times a day,day in, day out, on many Thai beaches and having any major accident let alone a tragic death is a rare occurrence...[ there most be multi thousands of successful flights per year] 

Unfortunately there  is always a possibility in any "daredevil" activity anywhere in the world, of something going wrong, that's the risk you take and as i said, more often than not nothing goes wrong.

Human error, a mistake by the operators seems to be the cause here, not the quality/standard of the whole set up

IMO.

 

Yes,I see what you mean. You are correct in that human error could be the root cause in this incident. I particularly don't like the fact that a Thai outrider accompanies each flight and don't understand his purpose in doing so.  Seems it could only lead to a problem on the launch or in flight. This incident was definitely caused by one if the two: human error whether intentional or not....or equipment malfunction. The first could have led to the second. 

6 minutes ago, xerostar said:

 

From the video it appears there was no crutch strap which I think should be mandatory  for any rides like this.

He probably slipped out of the strap across his behind and  he only had two handles with which to hang on. 

The assistant guy does some strange movement to get his legs above the victim, possibly putting extra weight on his shoulders..

He wasn't strong enough to hold on with his arms and had to let go.

Poor bugger RIP mate

 

 

 

Yes, I agree...the Thai outrider may have well been a contributing or major cause of the incident. I would never go aloft with anyone positioned like that.  

I am an ex-skydiver & military freefall parachutist, and former FAA Master Parachute Rigger as well with over 5,200 jumps made and I suspect suitably expert enough to comment on the technical aspects of this case. In the late 80s and early 90's, my best friend, a civilian realtor and waterskiing partner,  asked me to do some research and to procure for him a quality parasailing rig.  I did so, he paid for it and this launched us on a wonderful and exciting new adjunct sport that combined our two respective action sports into one. I carefully laid out a safety SOP, inspected and repaired the chute periodically and conducted a brief training class for anybody that we launched for a ride around our medium-sized lake located in Orange County, Virginia.  Fortunately we were the only parasailing rig in use on that lake and we also declined to launch during busy periods when several ski boats were operating. 

We made hundreds of launches, flights and recoveries, all made without a single problem.  The keys to this success were a sound, proper harness, using two assistants to spread the canopy during launch and a powerful ski boat to provide strong acceleration. At the end of the ride, the boat driver simply headed upwind, chopped power, which allowed the chute to float down and the rider simply splashed down into the water.  The chute provided sufficient forward airspeed to ensure it settled onto the water behind the rider. The boat would then circle around and retrieve the rider once we'd shifted the transmission into neutral.

The harness we we used was a special full saddle seat type, which allowed the rider to sit back in a relaxed manner and enjoy the ride. But it also featured two full length, adjustable diagonal back straps that ran diagonally across the whole back and one fixed-length cross strap that ran across the small of the wearer's back.  These three pieces of webbing ensured the rider could not fall backwards and thus out of the harness. A good harness will also have an adjustable cross strap on the chest that gets cinched down and the free end rolled and placed under a 1-inch elastic keeper.  All other adjustable harness free ends also were retained by such keepers. We also used aircraft grade snaps that were fixed spring-loaded types and had no quick-fit ejector releases such as are found on modern skydiving rigs. There was thus no way a rider could undo his harness easily once it was under tension from the chute and forward motion of the boat. A person bent on suicide or a dumb stunt could however undo the leg straps that were clipped into seat saddle, push off of the webbing saddle and plunge vertically downwards. Some parachute harnesses designed for skydiving do not employ a saddle seat, but independent leg straps.  In this latter design, the jumper has no convenient saddle to sit in but is simply suspended vertically. Their design too can be found in parasailing harnesses. 

The video of the incident at Phuket doesn't adequately show the full harness design, but my assumption is that if it featured diagonal back straps and a lower cross strap in the back,  they weren't sufficiently cinched down and loose ends properly stowed...or the design had no diagonals or lower cross strap at all, and the poor gent simply fell backwards out of his harness with nothing but his leg straps to keep him in. Once he fell upside down in his harness, those leg straps certainly wouldn't be sufficient to retain his weight aloft against gravity and he fell into the ocean.  From 70-meters, even a splashdown into a deep water area could still be fatal.  At the speed he impacted, that water is akin to concrete.  The only other explanation I can think of is that a stitching failure occurred and the webbing separated, which caused a loss of integrity in the harness.  The webbing itself is normally 2-inch nylon rated at 5,500 pounds tensile strength, but is dependent on the quality, stitch design and integrity of the nylon thread used to sew it together. 

This was indeed a tragic incident and I suspect entirely due to a combination of shoddy materials, a poor, inadequate harness design and likely to an atrocious lack of safety standards that should have been imposed in this cottage industry.  May Mr. Hussey Rest In Peace and I hope his bereaved wife and family can put this tragic incident behind them and remember the man for his goodness and character. 

51 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Americans over 65 generally go on Medicare which will continue to exist. Of course, it's useless for those living abroad.

Not useless at all if you are retired US military eligible for Tricare for Life (TFL) and signed up prior to age 65 for Medicare Part B.  75% of all allowed overseas medical expenses get refunded to the patient, once a yearly copay of $150 per person/$300 per family is met. There is also an annual catastrophic cap of $3,000 in effect, which means that all bills beyond that cap are 100% paid.  Get one major operation done in Thailand...anything at or beyond THB 100,000 or so and you'll immediately likely meet your annual cap. It's a boon for retired military members, but there are some concerns over expected rising Part B monthly premiums ($133 at this writing) that might somewhat diminish the benefits offered by Tricare For Life depending on a retiree's financial status.  Conversely, these retirees who live within the USA (or travel there to receive medical treatment) fall wholly under Medicare rules and can experience more difficulties in finding doctors or getting certain care performed. There are fine hairs to be split in my explanation and I welcome any reader to update or correct this post. 

I am one of those ex-American military men...an ex-para.  I was once accosted in Bangkok by two Thai youths who wanted me to hand over my wallet. I was walking back alone at 1 AM to my hotel...the Dusit Thani at the time...after meeting a friend at a nearby bar in the Saladaeng area. I'd had a few beers, but still had my wits about me.  The kids weren't brandishing any weapons either. So I said to them... "you'll have to take it from me", and assumed a fighting stance.  They looked st each other and decided to leave me alone. They made it easy...no weapons yet brandished...and there was only two of them. I could also sense their fear. But there is a place and time to be a hero or to acquiesce and walk away unharmed. 

I was just down there, visiting Thai family members as part of a much larger family delegation that traveled all the way from Chiang Mai, Nan, Saraburi & Suphanburi.  Our activities were spread between Yala's Meuang district, Hat Yai and Songkhla. We had to drive through Pattani in traversing the region.  Everywhere we went, there were Buddhist and Muslim Thais interacting peacefully.  Our large clan gathering was likewise peaceful and all involved exuded warmth and friendliness. Religious differences pale and in the end it is all about seeking the enjoyment of life, raising our kids and living in peace. The radically-bent segment of the population in this region is minuscule in comparison. Like moderate Muslims everywhere, these people tend to mind their own business and shun, even abhor their violent brethren and the jihadist madrassas that spawn and incite them.  

I used to agree that moderate Muslims weren't doing enough to put down their violence-prone factions, but it was explained to me that in daring to do so, these decent folks expose themselves to terrible retribution.  It would take a huge, thoroughly coordinated regional effort to quell the violence and so far no initiatives have come forth to provide a workable, lasting remedy.  So of course I side with those who recommend a third party mediator needs to be put into place and empowered to promote change. The Thai government seems unwilling to ask for outside help, and until they do, little meaningful change can occur. 

Can anyone please explain in sufficient detail what steps must be taken to transfer funds through BB New York?  I use USAA for all banking but they impose a hefty international wire transfer fee to send money to our local BB account. I keep hearing about BB New York but never can find any information on how to set up a transfer through them.  Thanks. 

1 hour ago, NoBrainer said:

Change the whole Airline ticketing policy. Sell only 100% of available seats, and then if the purchaser does not show up for the flight, they simply lose the ticket.

Same as a sporting event. There are no refunds, or "We will let you attend the next game", in sporting events.

Buy a ticket, use it or lose it.

In that scenario there is zero need for over booking and airlines can get paid for every seat sold, whether it is used or not.

Would also make people far more conscientious about getting to the airport on time.

That's a bit severe IMO.  There should be exclusions for certain categories...such as inability to catch a connecting flight due to the late arrival of the inbound leg; medical emergencies that occur within a specified period of time prior to check-in; other bonafide emergencies such as vehicular accidents enroute to the airport; force majeure events etc. If carriers ratchet things down too tight, the flying public will vote with their feet and the frequency, route variety and overall availability of air service will suffer.  Common sense must prevail both ways. 

I've been taking trips back to the US every year since I moved here 13 years ago...always have been able to rent from Hertz woithout question.  It's also listed on my account profile. Once you get that all set up, there's no worries. 

There's old aviators and bold aviators, but no old and bold aviators...as the old adage goes. For you posters worried about Ford's ability to fly safely:  no worries, he'll eventually fail to pass his medical certificate and a long career as an airman will be ended.

I met him at the Lop Buri Inn Resort one late afternoon after filming for "Shining Lie". He was surprised to see fellow Americans so far away from home and in a rather remote town. He invited my band of defense contractors out to his set but we had to decline due to our schedule. I'm so sorry to learn of his passing.  He was such a friendly, refreshing fellow and even though a star by then, never acted like it. 

A brief tale that is apropos here...

I traveled to Thailand over 50 times in a 7-year period as a defense businessman based out of California back in the 1990s and was relocated here by my corporation in 2004 along with my native Thai wife.  On one of my earliest business trips. I was accompanied by a team member,  a young and bright electrical engineer who was also quite a cocksure, strutting fellow but he performed well enough back in our California plant.  I needed him to spend a month here as our products were undergoing evaluation by the RTA and he was our most knowledgeable subject matter expert on the finer aspects of our system.  But the longer he stayed here (it was in Lopburi), the more he began to demonstrate his ugly side.  One morning at breakfast in our hotel, he gave the waitress a hard time because he had ordered pancakes off the menu and was told shortly afterwards that the cooks weren't sure how to make them...could he perhaps place an different order?  His retort? "No! I Pancakes are listed on the menu and I want them!".  The answer came back shortly that they could try to satisfy his order, but it would take about a half-hour.  My engineer almost snapped off the head of our waitress and the restaurant manager, who had come to explain the problem.  The fact was that nobody had ever ordered pancakes there and the cooks had long forgotten how to make them. 

I looked at him across the table...and put it to him: "What's wrong with you, Tom?  Did you get up on the wrong side of the bed today or what?"

He replied that he was just fed up with Thailand and everything in it...the conditions were lousy, the "greasy and spicy" food was not suitable for his palate and that he just hated being stuck in what he termed "a Third World hellhole".  Then he explained that he was raised in a blue-blooded Bostonian family, graduated from our elite West Point military academy and didn't deserve to be subjected to these "awful conditions"....which to be honest, weren't all that bad.  I've certainly seen far worse, as in wartime Vietnam.  His biggest mistake came when he then pronounced "I'm better than these people!"

To which I remarked "Oh, you had the good luck to choose your parents did you? The people you are denigrating here in Thailand never had such luck...they were borne here and grew up in very different conditions than you did as a member of a privileged family in the US."

He railed against other petty things that irritated him, such as complaining that I had a habit of buying our driver a cold beverage or vitamin drink at gas stops out on the road.  His plaint?  "He earns a salary, let him buy his own drinks!"  I replied that the man made a measly 300 Baht a day, and was raising a large family with five children.  Besides, today, the chap was my driver and I was the VIP; but it could be anyone's guess that in another decade or so, the situation might well be reversed and he could very well become the VIP (this episode occurred before the economic crisis hit the Kingdom in 1997).  Of course he scoffed at that idea. 

I made up my mind on the spur of the moment and told him that that day would be his very last in Thailand, because I was ordering him back home....that we didn't need Americans of his ilk ruining it for the rest of us in Thailand.  He duly flew out from Don Mueang the very next morning and I later learned that he lasted another 6 weeks on the job back home before being cashiered out.  Nobody there wanted to deal with a sanctimonious hothead, no matter how smart they might be.

The point of relating this story is that there will always be fellow citizens among us who turn absolutely ugly when placed in less than perfect conditions overseas and forced to adapt to a vastly different culture.  Why such men (and women occasionally) stay here for the long term totally escapes me...they are obviously unhappy with far more than Thailand and its people, but we see them out in the streets and in the markets and here on the Forum bitching and moaning; whining and insulting all manner of things Thai as well as acting rudely to their fellow expatriates. 

We'd all be far better off with out these uncultured, often surly and/or drunken clowns.   All they do is give the rest of us a bad rap.  Good riddance.

I met the man as we were fellow passengers on a US domestic flight decades ago. He was gracious, friendly and had no problem greeting so many people who stopped by to see him. Rest In Peace fellow traveler. 

I'd be careful what you wish for...we expats certainly would benefit from paying lower taxes based on our overseas location...based on not being a burden on US-based government services.  BUT...I would not want to also see my SS proceeds become non-eligible for COLA increases ( admittedly as meager as they are), withheld or recalculated downwards either.  

3 hours ago, Briggsy said:

You are not familiar with this intersection. It is under the motorway. There are no pedestrians.

 

In addition, Thais generally freeze rather than assisting in emergency situations. I have witnessed this. Perhaps it is related to living in a society where 'doing the right thng' can lead to negative repercussions.

I totally have to agree...from personal experience. I nearly choked to death at a popular chain steak restaurant in Chiang Mai a few years ago.  Realizing what was happening, I stood up, gagging, pointing at my throat, and not a solitary Thai among perhaps a dozen sitting near me lifted a finger to come to my aid. Luckily, very luckily for me, my Thai wife knew what to do and rushed around our table to apply the Heimlich Maneuver, which worked, causing me to cough up the offending bit of meat.  I had taught her how to perform the maneuver a few years prior and she remembered what to do and to do it forcefully, exactly as I'd taught her. I realize that 99% of the populace here hasn't a clue on how to help a choking victim, or to render any other form of first aid, but the fact that they casually remained riveted in their seats still galls me. 

The Thai have a cultural thing about dressing up.  It's centered around dressing well, grooming well and receiving respect because of one's comportment and appearance. You will occasionally hear comments spoken in Thai that include the word "pu-dee"...meaning so and so looks good. It is a big compliment to be called as such. Too many slovenly Western men dress like beach bums, out on the town often wearing no top at all....and unknowingly are denigrated by most Thai who see them out on the streets and in the malls. There's a time and place to dress like a beach-goer, but most of the time Westerners would fare better by erring on the side of overdressing for any occasion where they mingle with the public. Especially if entering a wat...it is considered a gross insult to try to walk into a temple if not wearing long pants and shirts with sleeves.  Ditto when visiting government offices.  You get the respect you deserve, but why hurt your chances by deliberately looking sloppy?

VPNs allow access to certain sites outside of Thailand that are otherwise denied, such as USG portals used to access one's military or Social Security account information and download tax documents.  I discovered that some of these foreign servers reject any connection attempts originating in Thailand because there are certain local ISPs here that have been blacklisted as known spam generators. A VPN is the only way to connect to these sites. I could care less if the MICT know I am connecting to US government sites to perform personal business, but would definitely not want my ability to use a VPN itself denied. 

How's this for a different twist on a fast car...I once owned a '99 MB AMG E55; and for grins tooled along the high Mohave Desert with my oldest son one fine day @ 265-kph.  On a long, straight two-lane country highway, we rocketed past an old geezer and his wife, driving what appeared to be a 1950's Ford pickup truck.  I caught in that flashing instance of our passage, the astonished look on their faces as my jet black wraith sucked all of the paint off of his ride.  As we decelerated down through 160-kph, my car seemed to be going in slow motion, but throughout it rode as if on rails. Life begins at 250+!  I used to eat Corvettes for lunch, easily outdragging them from a full stop up through a quarter-mile or so, until their ungoverned motors allowed them to pass me. The MB dealer explained that my car had no fewer than nine limiters installed.  The car was electronically limited to 260-265 max.  Plenty fast enough for the average guy, right?

The other cool memory was being tailed by a CHP patrolman on the 101 freeway near Camarillo, CA on a Sunday morning. I was carefully keeping it down to 80 mph (130+ kph) as that was the generally-held understanding of the maximum permitted speed tolerated by the fuzz, as long as you weren't weaving between lanes. Finally, he switched on his flashers and I pulled over. I anticipated that this was the only cop in miles to cite somebody cruising along at a mere 80, but when he approached me, he asked "hey, where are you heading this morning?"  I explained that I was enroute to a golf lesson further down the road, and he then replied "no problem, I didn't stop you to give you a ticket...I just wanted to check out your machine. Just try to keep it under 85 or so and you're good" ?  Good old Southern California!