AnnieT

This thread is about not only does Thai education need a new top but it also needs a new bottom; the bottom being student and teacher attitude and performance. Instead we have allowed it to become a sounding board for negative Thai stereotypes such as low IQ, poor listening skills, poor, stupid, bereft of values, deriding their religion Buddhism.

Instead on discussing the value of a new approach to Thai education we have allowed ourselves to be coerced into reading a critique of Thai people as less than equal when compared to the paragons of virtue and intelligence in the West.

I posted above that Finland had an education problem in the 1960's and solved it with a more teacher education, smaller classes and elimination of student tracking tests. A number of things mentioned in the OP are good ideas. The OP writes, "In this digital and more democratic era, the impetus for improving English education begins with students and teachers.' I agree. More and better teacher education and fewer students per class. The nice part is Thailand does not have to increase the education budget to get there. It is simply a matter of redirecting the money from administration to education.

You're right to a degree, though it's a defence mechanism to call what you don't like hearing a 'stereotype' We all stereotype, its a skill that's been in humans for a very long time. It's essential for our survival.

But you do temper it with some common sense as well. The Finland example is apposite, Finland is a country worth emulating in all sorts of respects for all sorts of reasons. Won't happen here though, it;s not the Thai way.

Another sterotype for you, but you'll agree with this one because I have some clippings of you saying the self-same thing.

Regrettably, Finland is not somewhere I have been and I regret that. A number of missed opportunities I suspect.

You are obviously not a teacher. Most of the foreign teachers I know try to avoid grammar and concentrate on conversation skills.

In my experience Thai students feel that if they are not studying grammar they aren't learning anything.

Thankfully i am not...

i wouldnt have the patience i would up smacking the little barstewards

I will stick to engineering

Me too, I did it once and learned the hard lesson, never again, not ever, not with Thais.

I'll stick to be a retired old lady who prefers fact to fiction, no matter how touchy-feely the fiction is.

Your a very bitter indivdual that much is obvious

*shrug* or insightful, depending upon whether you happen to agree with me or not. It might be 'obvious' but it isn't actually true, alas not all 'obvious' things are true, but they are always convenient. Still, throughout it all, you're entitled to believe whatever makes you feel good. It's what everyone does to a degree.

The question is: why does it make you feel good? What is it about an idea that makes the neuro-transmitters flow?

Thanks god it worked!

Of course it work. It had to work like numerous times before when the military take sides and bring down elected government. Thanks for confirming what I always believed. Looks like you in my camp.

What about violences Mr Loh? Both illegal actions, no doubt, but what about the violences committed by red thugs, anything your biased self could find out in the actions of (and by...!) your side's(!) opponents which could compare? Honestly, for once?

Bias, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder, which is why you think he is biased and no doubt, why he thinks you are biased.

That much, surely, is obvious to all.

Interestingly, we developed bias by learning to have it, and it's not difficult to guess at the learning process on both sides of the POV.

I blame the native English teachers for Thailands lack of progress, too much emphasis on grammar and rules, too little on actually using the language in real life

i was bored s**tless with English grammar when i was in school, so can well understand Thai students not being interested

You are obviously not a teacher. Most of the foreign teachers I know try to avoid grammar and concentrate on conversation skills.

In my experience Thai students feel that if they are not studying grammar they aren't learning anything.

Thankfully i am not...

i wouldnt have the patience i would up smacking the little barstewards

I will stick to engineering

Me too, I did it once and learned the hard lesson, never again, not ever, not with Thais.

I'll stick to be a retired old lady who prefers fact to fiction, no matter how touchy-feely the fiction is.

I blame the native English teachers for Thailands lack of progress, too much emphasis on grammar and rules, too little on actually using the language in real life

i was bored s**tless with English grammar when i was in school, so can well understand Thai students not being interested

A storming generalisation if there ever was!

Why not, plenty of storming generalisations on here stating Thai's are uneducated, stupid, lazy, etc etc

So don't whine, argue to the contrary, it might fly.

People need to learn how to tell the difference between what is not true and what they don't like to hear. A genuine question though. Why do Bangkok and Southern Thais call Isaan people 'kwai'? Hint: BKK hi-so think Isaan people are dirty, stupid and lazy. That's what many Thais think so go complain at them.

Sad state of affairs if the only external investment you can get is from Columbia.

How far are the mighty fallen?

Possibly more accurate: Most Thais have poor listening skills.

1. I doubt you know most Thais. 2. But with that kind of attitude it is no wonder they would not listen to you. It's kind of like a self fulfilling prophesy.

If you want to know how to meet Thais with good listening skills ask around when you find a Farang who thinks Thais have good listening skills ask him where he meets his friends and acquaintances.

My children listen to me very well especially when it is their interest to do so. It is simply a matter of motivation. If you don't know how to motivate Thais I can give you a list of people to call who will help in your attitude adjustment.

I'll be sure to carry around a twenty baht note next time I want to talk with a Thai. Course twenty may not be enough. Then, maybe you might enlighten us on what the proper motivation needed to get a Thai to listen. There must be a price or technique that the rest of us have overlooked.

That is what a good teacher does. He motivates students. Is there one technique? Yes. An open mind. The ability to treat people as individuals and not racial or ethnic or national stereotypes.

Well, apart from not noticing the sarcasm, you seem not to know that you can't buy motivation - not at 20 baht anyway, it's not a pay-for-and-get thing.

Possibly more accurate: Most Thais have poor listening skills.

1. I doubt you know most Thais. 2. But with that kind of attitude it is no wonder they would not listen to you. It's kind of like a self fulfilling prophesy.

If you want to know how to meet Thais with good listening skills ask around when you find a Farang who thinks Thais have good listening skills ask him where he meets his friends and acquaintances.

My children listen to me very well especially when it is their interest to do so. It is simply a matter of motivation. If you don't know how to motivate Thais I can give you a list of people to call who will help in your attitude adjustment.

Para 1. He doesn't need to know most Thais,, all he has to do is consult the Thai government's own IQ stats. On the other hand, you don't know most Thais eitherr so you can't refute his comment anyway. He has the balance of probability on his side though - low IQ pretty much equals poor listening skills. Poor cognition skills also. Sadly, you defend Thais against a shortcoming which is both evident and obvious, and you argue from a position of fundamental weakness.

Para 2. 'Friends and acquaintances don't cut it when you are dealing with large samples. Your argument is specious here also.

Para 3. Oh please. Your kids don't count as evidence for your argument either, splendid kids though I'm sure they are. I don't subscribe to the view that you have to motivate people to listen, most people naturally motivate themselves to their own perceived natural level based on self-interest, but Thais drink the Buddhist kool-aid and demotivate themselves or allow others to demotivate them because it's in their respective interests to have a cheap, unintelligent and compliant workforce. The Peter Principle applies.

You're a smart and thinking man, you should know this already. I shouldn't have to point it out. And you should know why it was done, how it was done and by whom it was done. If you don't, then you need to read more. If you can lose the 'airy-fairy political

correctness and stop refusing to see things as they are not as it is polite to say they are, then... ta bpen sawang qua dai.

1. You wrote, "all he has to do is consult the Thai government's own IQ stats. On the other hand, you don't know most Thais eitherr so you can't refute his comment anyway."

A freshman in logic could tell you, "The philosophic burden of proof lies upon a person making claims rather than shifting the burden of proof to others. In layman terms, he who makes the claims needs to provide the proof not I.

2. You wrote, "Low IQ pretty much equals poor listening skills." Not even close.

3. You wrote, "but Thais drink the Buddhist kool-aid and demotivate themselves or allow others to demotivate them because it's in their respective interests to have a cheap, unintelligent and compliant workforce." Your quote also demonstrates you know nothing about Buddhism in Thailand. Too far out for me to even discuss. Mostly insulting irrational bar talk.

I find that the majority of your post violates the rule below and I will no longer be a party to your anti Thai rant. I'll just put you on ignore.

Thai Visa rule #11. 11) You will not post slurs, degrading or overly negative comments directed towards Thailand, specific locations, Thai institutions such as the judicial or law enforcement system, Thai culture, Thai people ......

1. You wrote, "all he has to do is consult the Thai government's own IQ stats. On the other hand, you don't know most Thais eitherr so you can't refute his comment anyway."

You're on a hiding to nothing my friend. The Thai government stated their average population IQ last year was 89. The global average is 100.. The Thai number for all and children has been between 10 and 89 for more than 10 years and probably more. And I don't have to know most Thais to be able to read relevant Thai stats. I'm amazed you stoop to saying something ridiculous like that with (presumably) a straight face.

A freshman in logic could tell you, "The philosophic burden of proof lies upon a person making claims rather than shifting the burden of proof to others. In layman terms, he who makes the claims needs to provide the proof not I.

I just did that.

2. You wrote, "Low IQ pretty much equals poor listening skills." Not even close.

With respect I'm a retired clinician in the field so you're sh|t out of luck trying to apply the wishful thinking approach to this.

3. You wrote, "but Thais drink the Buddhist kool-aid and demotivate themselves or allow others to demotivate them because it's in their respective interests to have a cheap, unintelligent and compliant workforce." Your quote also demonstrates you know nothing about Buddhism in Thailand. Too far out for me to even discuss. Mostly insulting irrational bar talk.

No, not that, and I can;'t help it if you don't understand Buddhism either.

I find that the majority of your post violates the rule below and I will no longer be a party to your anti Thai rant. I'll just put you on ignore.

Well I doubt you can point to where I have ranted, All I've done is say things you don't choose to agree with and that doesn't break any forum rules that I'm aware of. The mods will se me straight if I'm wrong, and I will listen. They might be a touch 'enthusiastic' sometimes but I assume they know their job. Conversely, If you can only criticise and gain-say without supporting fact then perhaps you should just get another beer and whinge into it. Or whatever it is that you drink.

Thai Visa rule #11. 11) You will not post slurs, degrading or overly negative comments directed towards Thailand, specific locations, Thai institutions such as the judicial or law enforcement system, Thai culture, Thai people ......

You'll note it doesn't say anything about fact or opinion which is supportable by Thais themselves. It mentions slurs, but that isn't what I have written.

1. I doubt you know most Thais. 2. But with that kind of attitude it is no wonder they would not listen to you. It's kind of like a self fulfilling prophesy.

Listening first. Learning second. This may sound cynical, but Thais have poor listening skills.

Thais as a group have nothing in common except perhaps black hair. Some Thais have poor listening skills would be the correct way of phrasing your statement.

Possibly more accurate: Most Thais have poor listening skills.

If you want to know how to meet Thais with good listening skills ask around when you find a Farang who thinks Thais have good listening skills ask him where he meets his friends and acquaintances.

My children listen to me very well especially when it is their interest to do so. It is simply a matter of motivation. If you don't know how to motivate Thais I can give you a list of people to call who will help in your attitude adjustment.

I'll be sure to carry around a twenty baht note next time I want to talk with a Thai. Course twenty may not be enough. Then, maybe you might enlighten us on what the proper motivation needed to get a Thai to listen. There must be a price or technique that the rest of us have overlooked.

I acknowledge the sarcasm, but I'll answer it anyway. The average Thai is so bereft of value, either self-esteem or possessions, that they respond best to self-interest. In this, they're the same as all people one way or the other, but Thais are more so.

I didn't make them poor, uneducated and stupid and I don't keep them poor. uneducated and stupid, but the numbers say that's what they are. Don't blame me, blame the people who made them that way and keep them that way.

Political correctness and trying to put lipstick on the pig don't help, either of them.

I met one of the best teachers i've ever met in Trat in Thailand. She was the epitome of a vocational teacher. Whenever i hear people bad mouthing Thai teachers, i find it incredibly hard to reconcile it with my personal experience. Even in Samui, a shithole for public school education it seems, I met teachers who were clearly devoted to their students and enhancing their opportunities. If youve been inside the system for even a moderate amount of time you realise that there are far more serious issues than 'teaching quality' at the base of Thailand's education problems.

You can point to corruption, wasteful spending (our school had an entire room with state of the art equipment entirely devoted to promoting ASEAN and the AEC. You can point to politics such as the continual reforms, changes, and maybe even the clearly overzealous syllabus texts that are miles away from the students actual English level. You can point to the run down classrooms with no AC and doors that appear to shut the kids in like a stable. You can point to the grade inflation in tests that bear no reality to actual aptitude. You can point to the poor organisation and control of schools like personal fifedoms. You can point to the wider culture that sees education much the same way my parents saw it - playtime until i was old enough to get a proper job. I still recall the story told to me (by the teacher mentioned above) about her third grade kid who outperformed almost every other student in the district, but his parents, on balance decided that it was too expensive to send him to a decent high school and then college. Apparently this wasnt abnormal.

So Teachers are one cog in this massive machine (and as others have pointed out, tend to teach to the test because thats what theyre expected to do at the end of the da)y. Theres so much wrong with education in Thailand that its a constant shock to realise how much of the yearly budget is spent on it. The school sure as shit doesnt (random AEC room aside) see it.

There's no doubt there are good Thai teachers, but the majority aren't good, irrespective of subject. If this were not true, the Thai education system would not be held in such disrepute.

You don't have to think less of the Thai teacher you mention, but one swallow doth not a summer make and you would be sensible to accept the reasons for thinking she is in a small minority. I also know some Thai teachers who are genuine and nice people despite their cultural inheritance. Crappy teachers but nice people. Unfortunately, life deals harshly with nice or good people, like nice farangs, they get eaten alive.

Comments from the General in the last couple of days strongly suggest he's had enough. His heart isn't in it any moire. The kitchen got too hot for him. Maybe that's the reason the UN thang isn't going to be a sales pitch, but is going to focus on stuff that will almost guarantee plenty of free seats in the hall.

I thought at first it would be a massacre. Now I think it'll be a non-event.

Maybe the General knows something about it that we don't. Surprisingly enough.

Listening first. Learning second. This may sound cynical, but Thais have poor listening skills.

Thais as a group have nothing in common except perhaps black hair. Some Thais have poor listening skills would be the correct way of phrasing your statement.

Possibly more accurate: Most Thais have poor listening skills.

1. I doubt you know most Thais. 2. But with that kind of attitude it is no wonder they would not listen to you. It's kind of like a self fulfilling prophesy.

If you want to know how to meet Thais with good listening skills ask around when you find a Farang who thinks Thais have good listening skills ask him where he meets his friends and acquaintances.

My children listen to me very well especially when it is their interest to do so. It is simply a matter of motivation. If you don't know how to motivate Thais I can give you a list of people to call who will help in your attitude adjustment.

Para 1. He doesn't need to know most Thais,, all he has to do is consult the Thai government's own IQ stats. On the other hand, you don't know most Thais eitherr so you can't refute his comment anyway. He has the balance of probability on his side though - low IQ pretty much equals poor listening skills. Poor cognition skills also. Sadly, you defend Thais against a shortcoming which is both evident and obvious, and you argue from a position of fundamental weakness.

Para 2. 'Friends and acquaintances don't cut it when you are dealing with large samples. Your argument is specious here also.

Para 3. Oh please. Your kids don't count as evidence for your argument either, splendid kids though I'm sure they are. I don't subscribe to the view that you have to motivate people to listen, most people naturally motivate themselves to their own perceived natural level based on self-interest, but Thais drink the Buddhist kool-aid and demotivate themselves or allow others to demotivate them because it's in their respective interests to have a cheap, unintelligent and compliant workforce. The Peter Principle applies.

You're a smart and thinking man, you should know this already. I shouldn't have to point it out. And you should know why it was done, how it was done and by whom it was done. If you don't, then you need to read more. If you can lose the 'airy-fairy political

correctness and stop refusing to see things as they are not as it is polite to say they are, then... ta bpen sawang qua dai.

I can understand it if any of the photo's were in poor taste. However, only one of the photo's is potentially questionable (the one where the Chinese lady is framed by the Gold Leaf potentially depicting her as a deity instead of the statue she's blocking - see below).

But, that takes a big stretch of the imagination. It appears as though this artist simply has a dislike for the Chinese given recent 'toilet' events.

Its also possible / probable? that the Photographer had not requested permission to take professional photos - Again somewhat of a faux-pax.

Additionally, to create such art someone is perhaps a little 'whacky' in the first place - it wouldn't take much to upset someone a little whacky and highly strung.

All in all, not a big deal - nice photos - Good publicity for the Temple and Artist - but then again, any publicity is good publicity.... isn't it ?

Well, it's also possible that the author believes that Thai Buddhism is the only really authentic buddhism and therefore only a Thai would have been appropriate as an object to be photographed in the temple grounds. A Thai like himself. Perhaps a Thai model would have been better too. Preferably not a woman.

The real shame for buddhism is that people don't understand the real reason for the sexist woman-phobia. If they did they'd be too embarrassed to make any comment at all.

I like what you say, Annie, but the second part of your comment calls for more explanations from you. Besides, is it a shame only for Buddhism ? Aren't all present religions on this planet blatantly macho and hysterically (sorry for choosing that word, I use it for lack of a better one) anti-sex ?

The implacable irony of it is that, in their ferocious urge to control sexual desire, religions all end up accusing the object of (most) men desire, ie women, when it's perfectly obvious that women are a lot less interested in sex per se than their male counterparts. And no, I don't think it's just due to social conditioning.

The big Western wave of 'sex liberation' in the 70s started a line of thinking which I believe to be essentially wrong, ie that male and female desire is essentially the same, both in nature and form. Some thinkers (most of them women of course) resisted that idea but they were not mainstream.

When I see men accusing women of being essentially a permanent temptation and hating them for that, it always makes me wonder how the male brain works, and how it could on the one hand produce a great amount of technological, philosophical and artistic achievments, while remaining, in certain fields, amazingly childish.

You answer the question in the first paragraph by your comment in the second paragraph.

One becomes a buddhist (arguably) or enters the buddhist priesthood in search of spiritual enlightenment, which in one respect. is the dominion of the higher self over the lower self - or in Buddhist terms, enlightenment. And yet, the seekers after truth need protection from their carnal desires by not having women touch them etc etc. Not that this really means very much in the case of Thai Buddhism, which has way more than it's fair share of financial and sexual scandals. This is the major task they they have to achieve, and is symbolised by donning the saffron robe.

Seems to me to be a contradiction. But then the Thai priesthood is known to have more than it's fair share of contradictions - and criminals too (vide Suthep and Phra Buddha Issara) as well as a miscellany of lazy sods. The women priests are also known to have a lot of pollutants as well but that's not traditional Buddhism so far as I'm aware so perhaps it's not so important.

Most organised religion is little more than a joke upon the common people, as exemplified by the European "Divine Right of Kings" for example. They all serve the amartya in one form of another in their lust for temporal power (i.e. money).

But the White Temple is indeed very pretty, even for a copy.

Quote "There's a problem! Our temple always has a problem!," said the outspoken artist of the White Temple in Chiang Rai.

I wonder what problem that might be. Hypocrisy ? sanctimoniousness ?

Too much stupid. Way too much stupid.

Prayut prepared for UN meeting

Cricket box? check

Full-face visor helmet? check

Electric-shock collar so you won't forget not to threaten them? check, ouch!

Kevlar vest? check

Anti-egg-and-tomato screen? check

Over-size shoes that won't fit into mouth? check

Ready to go then.

Also so now facebook is the official way for the members of the junta to give press releases.

It wasn't a press release, it was a Facebook post.

This is the kind of pedantry, up with which we should not put.

"The airport now serves more than 22.5 million passengers per year, exceeding its capacity of 18.5 million."

21.6% over capacity. Could be a health and safety issue in view of the Civil Aviation standards thing...

Keystone Cops.

Embarrassment at obvious incompetence blendss seamlessly into outright lies.

That's the way to get foreign countries to help you...

Oh, Sorry. Typo.

That's the Thai way to get foreign countries to help you...

National traits and an overarching culture? Utter nonsense.

And doubtless you speak from the position of being an appropriate authority. Not. See my comment about political correctness and intelligence.

This has zero bearing on anyone's ability to learn a language.

If they were told 1 year in prison or get a B at English, 95% would fly through.

But that isn't what you were doing though, was it? You were commenting on a comment I made which was relevant.

Nice avoid though...

If they were told 1 year in prison or get a B at English, 95% would fly through.

Yes indeed. We are in agreement.

Part of the national trait.

Good generalisation

National traits and an overarching culture? Utter nonsense.

And doubtless you speak from the position of being an appropriate authority. Not. See my comment about political correctness and intelligence.

I can understand it if any of the photo's were in poor taste. However, only one of the photo's is potentially questionable (the one where the Chinese lady is framed by the Gold Leaf potentially depicting her as a deity instead of the statue she's blocking - see below).

But, that takes a big stretch of the imagination. It appears as though this artist simply has a dislike for the Chinese given recent 'toilet' events.

Its also possible / probable? that the Photographer had not requested permission to take professional photos - Again somewhat of a faux-pax.

Additionally, to create such art someone is perhaps a little 'whacky' in the first place - it wouldn't take much to upset someone a little whacky and highly strung.

All in all, not a big deal - nice photos - Good publicity for the Temple and Artist - but then again, any publicity is good publicity.... isn't it ?

Well, it's also possible that the author believes that Thai Buddhism is the only really authentic buddhism and therefore only a Thai would have been appropriate as an object to be photographed in the temple grounds. A Thai like himself. Perhaps a Thai model would have been better too. Preferably not a woman.

The real shame for buddhism is that people don't understand the real reason for the sexist woman-phobia. If they did they'd be too embarrassed to make any comment at all.

So, he's going to avoid all the real issues that the UN is concerned about - return to democracy, freedom of the media, human trafficking, suppression of political dissent - and try to cover it up with some nonsense about sufficiency economy and efforts to ease rural poverty. Give me a bucket.

Could have been worse. It could have been sufficiency 'theory' and rain-making. And the bit about having a democratic heart.

That would have had them rolling in the aisles.

Listening first. Learning second. This may sound cynical, but Thais have poor listening skills.

Thais as a group have nothing in common except perhaps black hair. Some Thais have poor listening skills would be the correct way of phrasing your statement.

Thais have national traits, same as Germans or French or British or Australians. Or Americans. Traits come from the over-arching national culture..

Thais don't listen well seems like a reasonable statement, though there will always be some who think it shouldn't be right, or perhaps they think it's racist. Such is the burden of political correctness, it just gets in the way of understanding.

Thais are relatively unintelligent, that's the verdict of many national tests over the years but it's politically incorrect so people say it's not true instead of saying they don't like it. In general the only statistics which are not true and reliable are statistics done sloppily - can't argue with real numbers.

There are no national traits. The entire approach is now considered defunct. As much as you may want to revisit a world populated by people who believed national traits existed for most educated people it died after Germany lost the war.

Ah. As I said, not politically correct so it ain't so, whereas the normal intelligence would ask "really? what are they?"

I've been living and working in Thailand for over 20 years now and I've got to know a lot of teachers here in that time and 99.5 are absolute nut cases I mean I wouldn't let them near my kids let alone teach them !!!! The other .5 are solid people can see in their eyes and hear in their voice plus the way they conduct them selves they know how to teach and love doing so.

Just my opinion I've been known to be wrong sometimes just ask my wife.

I've been living in Thailand for 20 years and 99.5% of the expats I've known here dropped out of high school.

I suppose that ought to be surprising. Sadly, not so very.

His point is to start measuring.

Did I ask you? Sit down raise your hand and wait till you are called on.

Ah. Another graduate of the Thai education system. It always shows. Presumably you would quite like to do some measuring as well?

You answer a question that I did not ask you with an answer that makes no sense and now a comment about my education which makes no sense and another statement about measuring that makes no sense. Make a statement or answer a question sensibly and I'll be more than happy to comment.

So. You didn't understand very much at all then... As I said, it always shows.