hyperHowie

My name is Bob and I was born and raised in Los Angeles. I will retire at the end of February. After graduating college I entered the Air Force during the Viet Nam era and served a tour in Viet Nam which was my first exposure to Asia. Visited Bangkok on leave in 1972 at the end of my tour. I was not out yet and still quite closeted being the the military. Served 8 years but gradually came out and decided at 30 the military was not a great career choice for a gay man. Travelled for 9 months throughout Asia after leaving the military and really let loose when I met some great guys in Kuala Lumpur (not Thailand as one would think). I had a few different jobs after returning home but ended up in the family manufacturing business for the last 20 years. We manufacture electronic heat exchangers and chassis (to keep it short) for military aircraft, aerospace, and semiconductor industries. It's a small business and it surely has taken its toll on my brother and I. I am not out at work (macho atmosphere is too much for me to handle) and will be happy to be totally out once I retire. Immediate family and friends know of my lifestyle. Spent many years clubbing in West Hollywood in the days of Studio One. I have had a few long distance relationships (some with Thai working boys) and a couple here in Los Angeles. I still enjoy clubbing, particularly at DJ Station where I celebrated my 60th birthday in grand fashion dancing on the stage with the guys.

I have travelled to Thailand off and on since that first trip in 1972. I have seen the changes particularly in Bangkok and Pattaya over the years. I remember the great times at the first Rome Club and then after its rennovation. Harry's Bar and the Garden Bar on soi 2. Pattaya did not have much in the way of a gay scene when I first went there other than one or two bars I vaguely recall one being down walking street somewhere near the Siam Bayshore. The road along the beach was not built up like today and I met a guy in Dunkin' Donuts of all places. In the last 5 to 10 years I have made 2 to 3 trips a year to Thailand. Love the beach at Patong much better than Pattaya and it has, in my opinion, a more relaxed gay scene than Pattaya so I tend to like going to places like James Dean and the Boat Bar versus the go go bars of Pattaya. Just personal preference.

I have been involved with a number of working boys (freelancers) and have enjoyed the relationships a great deal. Although they have not been without turmoil, these guys really have formed a genuine liking for me beyond the money. I still keep in touch and they with me. Unfortunately I am a little burned out on the scene as it seems like every guy I have become involved with has become infected with the dreaded HIV. I have sat in the doctors offices and hospitals and am tired of it. I had a bf here in Los Angeles and dealt with his HIV status for years. Fortunately all are still healthy but I have also lost a couple of great guys and numerous friends to the virus. All that being said I met a Thai student about 1 1/2 years ago here in Los Angeles attending graduate school. He is a Thai military officer on a scholarship. He just started in the PhD program and it looks like he will be here for at least two (more likely three) years. I have not been to Thailand for over a year now but yearning to get back and enjoy the beaches and nightlife (socially not sexually). I have a special friend in Thailand that I call regularly but don't want this to go to far and need to kind of set him "straight" on where I stand. He knows I don't consider us boyfriends but think he is somewhat dependent on me. Fortunately I have faired well and can afford to help him now and then but have explained that I can be doing this the rest of my life. So I am happy and content with the current relationship (he knows about the guy in Thailand and is understanding of my not wanting to cut this off over the phone). I know in the future if the current relationship makes it we will return to Thailand where he has an obligation of military service and he will be teaching at the military academy. He has a good career ahead of him and although he would like to remain here I have tried to discourage this as he will have status (something very important to Thais) in Thailand and very little here. As we both age (I am 62, he is 27) I know that he will need a life that gives him the security and status afforded by a military career.

I am very fond of Thailand and I hope to be able to split my time between Los Angeles, Honolulu, Thailand and traveling. Think I got a little long winded here so I had better cut this off. Enjoy reading the posts here as the discussion tends to be a little more civil than on some of the other gay Thailand sites.

Conning people out of money, pornography, private car?

They should make him the head of an order somewhere.

He sounds ideal.

Pity he hasn't a plane, but I'm sure he could work on that.

I bet you've never spent time in the monkhood.

He's a FAKE monk. Real monks don't do this.

I assume you are trying to make a poor joke?

Yes, and real Catholic priests don't molest young boys. But a very Senior Monk in Chiangmai was arrested several years ago for his predilection towards young boys. So, YES, even REAL monks -- and those of other faiths -- DO, DO THAT sometimes. Get a life!

My brother, an attorney, once said that many ppl get into trouble with their mouths after an event.

I cannot speak for Thailand, but he said if I was ever questioned by the police, to simply say that I would love to answer their questions, but my brother, an attorney, told me to talk to him first (or words to that effect.)

Might not work with Thai police but it sounds like replacing the word "attorney" with "my insurance agent" might work here.

What to expect from an uncivilised country. This is a common occurence in thailand roads everday....stupid ignaorant people who just becuase of easy credit, are allowed to own and drive cars and motorcycles and have no clue how to drive them in a civilised manner.

And where you came from was soooo utopian that you moved here ... and stayed?!

Oddly, I had an American on a Click try to do the same to me about ten months ago, in Chiang Mai on the river road, seems he thought I was driving my four door Toyota pickup to fast. Mrs CM solved the problem without being prompted, having watched his antics for several minutes she opened her door a few inches, just as I tried to skirt around him, a few more inches and he would have been gutter fodder and he got the message loud and clear.

If I understood your premise -- and I might not -- what could have happened was the guy would've taken your door off its hinges as he drove by. I've seen that happen to someone opening their door on the side of the door.

Pedestrian crossings here are a joke. No lights and a total lack of respect for pedestrians by motorists.

I agree but really nothing to do with this story. Hard to say who was at fault although my feeling is Russian on a big bike was speeding.

'Who was at fault'???? In the UK, among other civilised countries, the PEDESTRIAN comes first! Never mind the DELETED get out clause 'jaywalking'. You are a 'soft machine'. Other road users, whether it be bike or car, should ALWAYS be looking out for YOU

I cannot believe your xenophobic comment. For one, you're not in the UK. Second, in "some" civilized societies the DRIVER has the right of way because in THEIR -- not my -- thinking pedestrians are seen as more nimble than a driver and are expected to look first anyway. I could be just as culturally biased and say in some "civilized" countries, ppl drive on the RIGHT. But then, that would be my bias.

A better example I found on the internet:

"People who read English often assume that it is natural to scan a visual field from left to right and from top to bottom. In the United States it is typical for the "on" position of a toggle switch to be "up", whereas in the UK, Australia, and New Zealand it is "down." Also, in these countries, North is the top of a map, up is usually the larger quantity and better, as well. As another example, Japanese do not place an X in a check-box to indicate acceptancethis indicates refusal."

"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore."

- Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz.

Moral justice if he was guilty. Should be extended to all freaks of nature.

Who decides who's a "freak of nature"?

Jews in Nazis Germany?

Wrong tribe in Rawanda?

A Muslim in Bosnia?

Gays in Russia or Iran?

Catholics or Protestants in Ireland?

Farangs by Thais?

There's a famous WWII quote from a Nazi resister about those not defending the rights of others by just standing by. It ends poignantly with the phrase "...and then they came for me!"

Wow. Guess I better not lurk behind the keyboard and just come out to my brothers in Thailand, since I will be moving there (or Vietnam) within the next 18 mths.

I'm an American living in Washington, D.C. As a military brat, I was born in Germany, attended a Tokyo international school & an American HS in Seoul. Bachelors degree w/ some grad work. My parents lived for over 25 years in Asia, most of it doing international work. I'm 1/4 Asian.

I served 3 yrs on Active Duty before joining the Reserves. I spent 13 years in corporate marketing with Fortune 10 companies until I realized that I wanted more out of my life than peddling computer hardware (especially since I'm not a techie). A deployment on a NATO peacekeeping mission to Bosnia helped me break out of my midlife crisis. When I retired from the Reserves, the very next day I served as a contractor helping troops (& families) returning from a combat zone; a sort of military social worker: Homelessness, job assistance, financial aid, education benefits, medical & mental referrals, including some Asian-Americans who fought in WWII.

Even though that was the most personally enjoyable work experience at that point, I realized that international charitable work was closer to my heart (the 'international' overrode the 'charitable' TBH.)

So, I'm making my 2nd trip to Thailand late FEB 2016 to CM, but I'll probably visit Pattaya, Phuket et al just to see a different side of Thailand talked about on here. I am open to any suggestions (other than go-back home.) BTW: I'm open to ALL parts of Asian and FEEDBACK from expats who've explored or lived elsewhere would be most helpful. Just send a private message if you prefer.

Lastly (sorry for the long monologue), but after hiding my sexuality during my corporate & military years, I've ditched the rest of my macho merit badges (martial arts, motorcycles and skydiving) and am in the final stages of scraping off the last 'protective layers.' It just takes longer for some of us.

I'm not really a bar person and enjoy writing and nonfiction reading more than slugging down beers in bars (having worked in US bars & restaurants & my time in the military, I did enough of that. It was never a primary activity even then.) However, I'll surely succumb to bar boys or whatever until hopefully, a more caring relationship might develop. Advice welcomed haha.

Oh, yeah, white middle class upbringing, healthy, active 60s with time spent at both Protestant & Catholic prep schools (but not religious, although I'll explore Buddhism, if only for cultural reasons.)

Talk to me and let me hear YOUR experiences, good or bad, Thailand or elsewhere. I'm open to any tips, warmings, suggestions & other unsolicited advice.

Your Blocking

Other nations take POW's and put them threw their criminal justice system? ! Not on this planet. However yes, on Planet Troll, things indeed may differ.

NOT true. Do you think (to include every nation nearly) that we tried all the POWs that were captured during WWII or Korea for that matter? Not unless they were war criminals: Remember the Nuremberg Trials?

They were not fighting in uniform. They were terrorists and the Geneva Convention does not apply to them.

The Geneva Convention classifies them as Civilians subject to the domestic laws of the country holding them.

They are unlawful combatants and the Geneva Convention does not apply to them.

Unlawful combatant is not a term recognised under international law. It is a designation unilaterally determined by the US. It has no standing. No other country has signed any protocol recognising it. Many countries, however, has ratified the protocols under the Geneva Convention.

this US unilateralism is a war crime.

NOT fighting in uniform among other matters,denied them POW status, but they were treated with Geneva protections. It is clear their status as enemy combatants allowed them to be retained. There is no credible entity that had maintained otherwise to include Obama.

ON CHINESE DRIVERS:

Perhaps many of you have had much more experience in China than I, but I'll pitch in anyway.

My experience of riding for a month around China, next to the father of a boy I mentor in the US, was amazing. Buses and trucks merging together with us caught in the middle and observing the results of half dozen accidents during the first 30 min on a major new highway out of Shantou.

However, two other things also stood out: He had a mounted video camera to prove he wasn't at fault when collisions occurred. I saw quite a few of those & knew why.

Second, I had read that the average driving experience for most Chinese was 5 yrs. No wonder they don't have basic skills. In fact, the Chinese father was a professor, yet his 25 yo son didn't know how to drive until I taught him in the US. My elementary school brother had more driving intuition than the Chinese 25 yo (although the cops did catch my brother's maiden voyage as a 10 yo.) Chinese just haven't had the opportunity to familiarize themselves with cars compared to many of us farangs who often grew up with multuple cars in our families.

Lastly, I came across several school groups, lots of bright college kids & businessmen in China, as well as multiple Chinese tour groups in my native land, who did not speak a word of English (HK might be a very different story.) The dearth of that skill is perhaps greater than I've experienced in other countries I've visited or lived (not that the world has to learn our language.) So SHOUTING in English, other than making you feel better, simply will draw a lot of blank stares. But driving skills & English language will increase with Chinese tourists, but not until the younger Chinese generation starts visiting Thailand.

Old Asia hands: Feel free to correct any misperceptions

[quote name="neverdie" post="10298635" timestamp="1452571145"

14 years in custody without charge. The US should be ashamed. Any complaints from the US about human rights abuses of other countries ring hollow and hypocritical.

One day the truth will come out about what George Bush and his cronies did and some people will be shock.

They should be placed In Guantanamo bay and left to rot.

History won't be kind to these fools and people hundreds of years from now will wonder why people from
This era allowed it to happen.

Oh, pfui. Is history unkind to Benjamin Harrison for his role in the planters' coup overthrowing the Kingdom of Hawaii? How about McKinley's role (and Theodore Roosevelt's) in the Spanish-American War and the subsequent insurrection in the Philippines and bloody, brutal dictatorships in Cuba? The United States is not doing anything different from what we've done since the time of Andrew Jackson.

I'm a rookie, but my understanding is that Thai, like Chinese & Vietnamese, is a tonal language, so if your pronunciation is not spot on, they wouldn't understand you. True?

The US State Department and other sites list Thai as a Level 4 language (5 being the most difficult, 1 being the easiest.)

At least she can sing Thai. U?

Give her props for trying. Also ask yrself if ur willing to work their UNchosen rural Thai towns that many Peace Corps volunteers work with on very low pay.

I personally know an attorney who went to GB many years ago when these releases were really moving along. Yes, he said there were some detainees who were framed by others in their country (owed a debt, maybe a bad landlord, a grudge, et). OTOH, he stated there were some incredibly evil ppl there who should never.see the light of day and will do anything to kill westerners (this was their goal prior to incarceration. These POWs were screened by both their countrymen and those who captured them (NATO soldiers.) Obviously in a combat environment it's more difficult, but you still try to do things like DNA (yep) & fingerprints. That's how some of these ppl were caught.

There was a similar problem an older relative said when he was part of early occupation forces during WWII Germany. How to release all prisoners, except those hard core Nazis who even the other German POWs were a little concerned about. There were cases of fanatical Nazis killing fellow POWs who just wanted to go home after the war and didn't want to hear their rabble rousing BS. The transition was easier as we were dealing with a modern westernized nation whose fighters wore uniforms, followed some order & discipline and with their deranged visionary dead & their forces defeated, they signed a treaty. These GITMO guys are not in that mold.

GITMO prisoners never wore uniforms, don't follow the Geneva Convention, still have a massive reason to kill infidels, and their motivator is Allah (Blessed be his Name.) There is no end of mission for them. You see what's happening w/ ISIS. Do we really want to add murderous combat veterans to rejoin them or help other terrorist groups? When we start seeing more innocent Europeans or Americans killed in potential large scale blasts, you'll know that we might've been too lenient on our releases. We're talking about the bottom-of-the-barrell 'pro' terrorists that are there now. How many of the 140 left are in that group, we do not know.

Your second-hand story is not persuasive. How did your attorney friend know about the evil of some of the prisoners? Stories the guards told him, right? You know, one of the reasons most of the prisoners had to be released was that there were no files showing why they were being detained. So they had to make files, mostly based on interrogations of other prisoners and sometimes based on torture -- oops, I mean "enhanced interrogation." Hey, would you like an extra ration of food? Just confirm you saw Prisoner Y at a training camp. I know you've been standing in one place for ten hours, but if you'll just verify that you heard Prisoner A say Prisoner B was in his Taliban unit you can sit down, we'll even give you a cup of coffee. I don't think a "combat veteran" who's been confined to a cell for twelve or thirteen years really represents much of a threat. There are good reasons why 650 of 775 detainees have been "relocated" without trial. There are more good reasons why they only have evidence of wrongdoing to try about a dozen of the remainder, even in the ridiculous kangaroo courts called Military Commissions. Even under those circumstances they can't get convictions, and when they do manage to squeak through a conviction, the tough, hard-eyed military officers on the Commissions give lighter sentences than the civilian courts do. The only guy there I think probably was dangerous is Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Have you heard anything in the last two years about how *his* trial is progressing? I have to admit that I think by now there probably are quite a few there who hate America and Americans and will do everything they can to harm us if they are released. If you had been held in jail for no reason for 13 or 14 years you would probably feel the same way about your captors.

What many fail to recognize is that the people held at Guantanamo, while maybe not war criminals, are all combatants caught during an international armed conflict. Under Geneva Conventions we can hold until the cessation of hostilities to prevent them from returning to the battlefield as many relocated detainees have. There was no plan to try many and we didn't

Tell me this discussion is just a put-on ... to see how many others will go along. Or did I accidentally stumble on a thread from an online microeconomics class?

If not, we get it. You're upset because you didn't catch the pricing confusion until you went home.

So sorry. But I hate to see your reaction when you're really ripped off lol. (Psst:Don't return home. They do the same in western countries.)

I hear that Tai Chi or meditation helps center oneself!

Tell me this discussion is just a put-on ... to see how many others will go along. Or did I accidentally stumble on a thread from an online microeconomics class?

If not, we get it. You're upset because you didn't catch the pricing confusion until you went home.

So sorry. But I hate to see your reaction when you're really ripped off lol. (Psst:Don't return home. They do the same in other countries.)

I hear that Tai Chi or meditation helps center oneself

I worked in the detergent business for years. Are you certain you read the pack flash correctly? We often put a special announcement on the pack of the size/price reduction so the retailer would not cheat consumers. You might consider contacting the manufacturer toll free to complain. They likely will send you something to make you feel better.

You are having a laugh aren't you..................

When I was a US college student, a guy on my hall used to write ketters of complaint to manufacrurers of various products. You'd be surprised at the number who sent BOXES of free stuff to satisfy an upset "customer"

There's no need for a conspiracy theory. If it bothers u enough, why not go back to the store .. and ASK

It isn't the fact you lost money, it's that ur making a big deal for pennies.

Priorities?

It's what we Yanks call "making a mountain out of a molehill."

I personally know an attorney who went to GB many years ago when these releases were really moving along. Yes, he said there were some detainees who were framed by others in their country (owed a debt, maybe a bad landlord, a grudge, et). OTOH, he stated there were some incredibly evil ppl there who should never.see the light of day and will do anything to kill westerners (this was their goal prior to incarceration. These POWs were screened by both their countrymen and those who captured them (NATO soldiers.) Obviously in a combat environment it's more difficult, but you still try to do things like DNA (yep) & fingerprints. That's how some of these ppl were caught.

There was a similar problem an older relative said when he was part of early occupation forces during WWII Germany. How to release all prisoners, except those hard core Nazis who even the other German POWs were a little concerned about. There were cases of fanatical Nazis killing fellow POWs who just wanted to go home after the war and didn't want to hear their rabble rousing BS. The transition was easier as we were dealing with a modern westernized nation whose fighters wore uniforms, followed some order & discipline and with their deranged visionary dead & their forces defeated, they signed a treaty. These GITMO guys are not in that mold.

GITMO prisoners never wore uniforms, don't follow the Geneva Convention, still have a massive reason to kill infidels, and their motivator is Allah (Blessed be his Name.) There is no end of mission for them. You see what's happening w/ ISIS. Do we really want to add murderous combat veterans to rejoin them or help other terrorist groups? When we start seeing more innocent Europeans or Americans killed in potential large scale blasts, you'll know that we might've been too lenient on our releases. We're talking about the bottom-of-the-barrell 'pro' terrorists that are there now. How many of the 140 left are in that group, we do not know.

Just so it's really clear. I can tell you that this "package adjustment" has been going on LEGALLY in the U.S. for years (maybe even longer as I'm not a great shopper. I just read the complaints or news in Consumer Reports or other magazines.) Candy manufacturers to canned goods and perhaps frozen food. If they reduce prices, they often put in less product to meet their profit margins And they often keep a similar size packaging (yes, to "visually deceive.") Although I consider it at least a white "lie," they call it "marketing." Competition, hopefully, will take care of that.

And psychologically, they've been doing that emotionally to us fir a long time.

E.g., women will tell you that certain dress designers will downsize their dresses: They'll label a dress a size smaller, so women will feel better about themselves ("Oh look, I only wear a size 5, I thought I was a 6 [or whatever.]")

I wouldn't call your purchase a scam for sure. This should really come under "Consumer Info," so that Thai neophytes like me will pay a little more attention ... once baht denominations become 2nd hand haha.

Hell, whether it's Japan in the 60's (not dept. stores), southern Morrocco or Turkey in the '70s, or even Italy in the later years, often what you paid was the price you agreed. As one Italian leather goods owner once told me: "I have one price for locals, one for Italian tourists, another for Europeans ..." and then with a grin, "And then I have one,for you Americans."

And, I'm sure you all will say, "Duh, yeah, it happens all over Thailand." So therefore, my friend, you just made a poor consumer choice when you had the packaging size and price right in front of you (I probably would have made the same purchase.) Relax. All is not naught: You learned something. Thank you for sharing.

Is a money belt, e.g., a way to go ?

wooly-woofters.

The 1970s called. They want their slang back.

I lived the 70s in the US and have no clue what the hell ww's are. Brit slang?

My horniest age was from 13-16, especially age 16. I was also, at the time, unsuccessful in finding a much desired adult orceven same age partner. Yes, I know that's not legal in most countries: I'm just talking about ME back then. I'm now very much a legal adult.