Cassandra

Is it "the Woosterish/Brideshead reputation of Oxbridge" that puts off many of the very best?

Or the fact that they see Cambridge and Oxford Universities as inappropriate places to spend those three undergraduate years?

I could have gone to Cambridge, to my Dad's old college, and Mother wanted me to do so.

But Dad quite understood when I told him "No way. You went there, and consequently I have been able to learn about all that is wrong with that place".

My younger sister went to Oxford and came back with a 'Good Honours' degree----but still as gormless as ever.

Eight years after refusing to go to Cambridge, I did go there, to a Lectureship, on the reality side of Parker's Piece at the College of Technology.

Some of my HNC and IEEPartIII students were high-flying technicians at the Cavendish and Trumpington Road. Some of the disparaging tales they told gave Tom Sharpe extra material!

(My only claim to academic fame is to have borne the cross of being Wilt's shop steward!!---and saved his job for him, despite my inclinations.)

I think those very best state-school students are wise to leave Oxbridge to the overseas students and those Brits who feel they will need the prestige.

Each undergraduate can find something better somewhere else (often being tutored by Oxbridge graduates who aspire to serve up something better than they were served with themselves).

Oh dear this is fairly typical of the bitterness that seems to affect many Oxbridge rejects.The remarks are sadly muddled and ignorant.Some facts to bring the situation into perspective.

1.Oxford and Cambridge are always included in any list of the world's best universities.In other words they are universities of the vey highest quality and to deny this is sheer ignorance, or in some cases. prejudice.In the UK there are other great universities -UCL, Bristol, Edinburgh etc and in a few cases their departmental strengths are greater than their equivalents.But overall - quality of students and academics, facilities, research, networks etc there is no question Oxbridge is best.

2.Most Oxbridge students are state educated and from ordinary homes.Independent schools are nevertheless over represented and this is partly the result of the destruction of the grammar schools which until the 1960's provided a way to high achievement for bright working class girls and boys.

3,Some clever state school children are put off by the, I think quite false, Brideshead image of Oxbridge.Nevertheless the reality is Oxbridge still attracts a high proportion of the brightest state educated children.Contrary to what some think the driving force behind Oxbridge admissions is to attract the best and brightest from whatever source.There is no interest in being a privileged bastion.

Oxford and Cambridge have long complained that 'A' levels are not discriminating enough. I remember one of the dons telling me that entrance examination papers were marked impressionistically - precise, mechanical marking was reserved for 'scholarship' candidates, where marking had to be 'fair'. For the others, the examination was effectively a continuation of the interview.

Richard

As mentioned the BBC story was a good 8 to 10 years ago..could be wrong. But I doubt it mate..

as for your quote above..I rest my case 'guv'..your 'don' is almost certainly correct - enjoy your success Tim. Do you even dare to suggest that most Brits are simply out of the running not by lack of IQ but through lack of pedigree?? Do you dare, sir?

As someone very familiar with the Oxbridge recruitment process, I can tell you that you are completely wrong.The procedure is certainly elitist and reflects the desire to recruit the best sixth formers in the country.I can assure you also that there is a wide spread belief in England's leading public schools that the Oxbridge recruitment system is biased against independently educated applicants.To some extent this is true in that when presented with an equally qualified independently educated and state educated pupil, most colleges will take the state educated one.

Having said that I think it is true many state educated sixth formers are put off by the Woosterish/Brideshead reputation of Oxbridge.This is a pity and both schools and Oxbridge need to work harder to dispel this myth.

The end result is that Stickmans’ understanding of Thailand is coloured by the society in which he lives, which is absolutely fine until people start to presume that what he experiences in day to day life applies to Thailand, and Thais, as a whole. If he were a member of a few Chambers of Commerce, or the Sports Club or the Rajapreuck Club for example, the Thais he met in such society would give him an entirely different perspective.

Patrick

Spot on, Patrick.

You nailed this one to a tee.

Absolutely! I have read his site a few times and not only is he restricted to teacher social circles (ironic seeing as his weekly recently was about sticking to your own social level in order to have an interesting and ultimately more rewarding social interaction with people.) but also that he puts on this hero of sex tourist facade to generate hits for his site. It's all an act.

I can't believe that no one has mentioned his bar girl private investigation service yet. Do people actually fall for that shit?

Very perceptive post and its good sense makes me slightly ashamed of my schoolboy tease in the farang/falang thread.Sorry about that.

No need to get your guard up, I was really just being curious as I have not seen you participate in the Thai language forum. If you feel I am wasting your time you can of course refrain from answering.

I have to confess to being amused by this exchange, particularly the exquisitely polite skewering of someone who obviously doesn't know what he is talking about by someone who obviously does.Kamanga presumably knows he has been found out but still comes back, not very effectively, to preserve a semblance of his lost dignity.

My advice to Kamanga: never reinforce failure.

It's a shame some people are so unpleasant. My advice to cassandra: If you don't have anything nice to say, dont say anything at all.

That's not a very nice thing to say.You just received a well deserved mild ribbing.No big deal.Would you like me to recomend some Thai language text books for beginners?

No need to get your guard up, I was really just being curious as I have not seen you participate in the Thai language forum. If you feel I am wasting your time you can of course refrain from answering.

I have to confess to being amused by this exchange, particularly the exquisitely polite skewering of someone who obviously doesn't know what he is talking about by someone who obviously does.Kamanga presumably knows he has been found out but still comes back, not very effectively, to preserve a semblance of his lost dignity.

My advice to Kamanga: never reinforce failure.

Stickmans’ site and its’ content are relevant to perhaps 50% of Farang living in Thailand.

He seems like a nice enough chap but at the end of the day he is a rather poorly paid English Teacher, and he can only comment on the opinions and experiences of his social circle – Thai and Farang – here.

It would be a mistake to assume that he has any insight at all into the thinking or attitude of Thais (or Farang for that matter) in other social or intellectual strata.

Patrick

I fully agree.He seems a decent if naive young man and I think he should be given credit for having identified and exploited a niche.If I was in his shoes I would be thinking about turning the website into a paying proposition.In this event he could abandon the teaching job which is wretchedly paid and which he obviously doesn't like very much.

Perhaps instead of publishing all readers submissions he should be more selective.

His challenge is to attract a more upmarket and better educated clientele, the same challenge incidentally that faces Thai Visa if that's not too sensitive a topic!

Must be rough being a 48 year old farang woman in Thailand. No action for her and no way to keep her man's eye from wandering. A farang woman just can't compete with a young thai girl.

Now in a western country, marriage or no willing lovely young girls will keep a middle aged man in his place. But in Thailand, too much temptation for an older man. We can read between the lines why the farang woman shot her BF.

same old same old. When will you guys ever learn? How do you know there is no action for her? How do you know her boyfriend was so shallow he couldn't keep it in his pants?

All supposition when the only facts we know are the ones already printed.

SBK, I fully support your comments and furthermore it was a stupid post by Thaistyx albeit one reflecting the view of many downmarket farangs (Pattaya rifraff and other sex tourist types etc).

Among my friends in Bangkok there are many happily married farang couples of all ages, including some in their late 40's and 50's.None of the guys are interested in throwing it all up for a young Thai girl, although as we all know many are very desirable.

In my opinion those spending more than Bt 10,000 pm are selfish monsters given the average Thai wage.It's very important that farangs don't spend more than the average Thai.I know my Thai friends respect me when I decline to buy a round of drinks:they appreciate my commitment to Thai culture and don't at all see me as a khiniaw cheapskate.I live in a reconditioned oil drum just outside Udon with my ex-bargirl "wife" and our fighting cocks.It's a bit of a squeeze but we manage on a diet of somtum and the odd soi dog.

The worst farangs of all are those smarmy educated ones with their fancy degrees from Harvard and Oxford.They most strangely came to Thailand to do a job of work, and some of these wretches earn Bt 500,0000 or more not to mention free housing etc.How the Thais despise these farangs with their East coast good manners,charming wives and clean limbed kids.They much prefer retired ex-sex tourists like myself.

So in short Bt 10,000 per month is about right.

I have always used Louis Tailors, 100 yards from Nana Station on the Landmark side of the road.

I must have had a dozen suits and twenty shirts made there over the years, including a Leather Jacket and an Overcoat (all useless to me now that I live here )

You probably know that American Film Star Steven Segal spends a lot of time shooting films in Thailand, he gets all his clothes made there when he is here, pictures of him with the staff all over the shop.

I have never been dissapointed..but one thing I do know for a fact is that many of the shops around he Lower Suk are are actually owned by the same family and all the clothes are made at the same place..so it really does not matter who you choose that much.. but the guy that does the fitting/measuring can make the difference to the final fit, although you noramlly have to go for a fitting anyway prior to final delivery of your garments.

If a seriously uncool fat ox like Steven Segal goes there, that's a sufficient warning to stay away.Best advice is to stay away from all Indian tailors although Rajas probably the best of these.Stick with the Thai or Chinese outfits.Dinos or Moonriver on Sukhumvit are OK but not cheap.

I enjoyed your blog.

Some interesting comments about Pattaya in it.

There were all of these fat OLD men total losers

walking around with thai girls that looked like they were about 15

years old. (in reality probably 21). The men disgusted me so much, I

didnt enjoy that part of the trip at all.

Wow, such a hateful statement

Unfortunately, young people in the US and Europe are brainwashed to think this way, where older men romancing younger women is normal in many cultures.

I'm sure that lukrung will change her thinking about many things that she has been conditioned into believing as she ages, learns and matures.

Broadening the mind, is what travel does.

The above is the third post in quick succession protesting about Linda's, in my view, perfectly pertinent remarks.The reality is that Pattaya is indeed full of fat old (and some younger ones as well) losers accompanied by young Thai prostitites.You have to laugh at the self-deluded who prattle on about the normality of older men romancing younger women in many cultures.They're just sex tourists and hookers in most cases.

Linda, hope all works out for you.You will already seen there is a scummy side to Westerners in Thailand.It's a minority however although heavily represented in Pattaya.

ChingChing

With a minimal amount of forward planning you absolutely do not need the services of an agent to renew your retirement visa.

Bear in mind that you can apply any time within the last thirty days of your current permission to stay so you have plenty of time to get the documents together - and there aren't many.

If you need a letter from your embassy, certifying your pension, this can be done well in advance as the letter will remain valid while your passport is valid. New passport needs a new letter because the number will change.

Any clinic will give you a health certificate on the spot - maybe they will examine you but probably not.

The bank (mine anyway, TMB) will write you a standard letter and update your passbook at the same time. The letter is valid for 72 hours only so if you get it on a Friday you will need to go to Immigration on the following Monday.

Otherwise you just need 1900 Baht, a TM7 and a photocopy of your passport. I tend to copy everything, just in case. This time the only copies that they needed were the embassy letter and the passport.

I extended my retirement last week in Pattaya (Jompthien) - no agent, no hassle and took all of ten minutes.

DM

The question of whether an agent is needed arises from time time in respect of many immigration procedures in Thailand.Like so many questions on this forum the answer depends on your own circumstances.The literal truth is that you do not NEED an agent, but many would find the use of a knowledgeable agent a time saving and useful service.I have known farangs who have achieved PR entirely on their own but the majority would use agents (to be precise, immigration lawyers).

For more routine visa work most legit expats ( ie holders of work permits etc) still tend to use company officials and possibly immigration specialists (agents/lawyers).If you are a retiree or someone else with time on your hands, trogging down to Suan Plu may be a welcome distraction in your day.

I went to the pub last night for the quiz show. All expatriates, and the quizmaster made a point of announcing, "There are an equal number of questions in this quiz from the USA and the UK!"

Sorry, we don't know which queen is addressed in the song, "Mary, Mary, quite contrary..." (apparently Bloody Mary). We don't expect folks from the UK to name 3 our of 4 of the presidents who were assassinated in office (most Americans only name Kennedy and Lincoln, not Garfield or McKinley). We don't know the names of all of QE2's children, or which of her sisters are still alive, and wouldn't expect you to name our retired but living presidents.

When I applied for a long term visa in Mexico, the official wrote in my nationality, not as 'estadounidense,' but "Americano."

Isn't patriotism the last refuge of a scoundrel?

Any educated Englishman would know the names of retired but living US presidents and many would know at least 3 of US presidents that were asasinated.Similarly any educated American would probably know at least 2 of QE2's children.

I wondered whether anyone was going to point out an absurdity in this thread.Nobody has so so far so let me step in.Unless patriotism is very clearly defined the subject tends to be measured by the amount of flag waving and "in your face" nationalism.

The reality is that some countries are much more secure in their identity than others, generally those with a longer history.Thus old countries like France, England, and Japan don't really need to make a song and dance about patriotism, though of course some do.Citizens of these countries are certainly proud of their culture but generally in a quieter more confident way way.

America, a big flag waver, comes in a different category as a country of immigrants.In America it's necessary to constantly reinforce the concept of nation through allegiance to the flag ceremonies etc.

In SEA the closest thing to Thailand is the Philippines. Similar costs, and not too much of a problem with the Visa's, and the food is great.

Barry

Would you care to expand on why you believe food in the Philippines is "great", because the received wisdom is precisely the opposite?

I agree, most members of Congress probably hold university degrees as it is the culturally accepted norm, but I think the point was, that it is probably not a requirement in the US or UK in order to hold office.

George W Bush

Education: Bachelor's degree, Yale University, 1968; MBA, Harvard University, 1975

The mind boggles...

It's quite amusing to see someone whose intellectual requirements are apparently satisfied by living in Pattaya making laboured fun of George Bush's academic attainments.I would be interested to know whether the poster from Pattaya has achieved equal educational status (to prepare him for the intellectual cut and thrust of the Eastern Seaboard, pub quiz nights etc)

I'm no supporter of Bush and question his judgement in many areas, not least foreign affairs.However it is a very common delusion among tabloid reading lower class Brits that Bush is some kind of goofball intellectually.As any switched on American would tell you, including his political opponents, Bush is a very smart savvy operator albeit one in my view with defective judgement.

Back to the original point it is ridiculous that any politician in any country should be by statute required to have a college degree, and I think any such stipulation is profoundly undemocratic.The intent is of course is to discourage working class participation in politics.If this rule had been applied in 19th century Britain an independent Labour party would never have emerged.

I dont live in CM. But any time i have been up there. I have met up with some TV members. Never met one i didnt like, Infact a couple even came to my wedding. I think this is a wind up post.

Well for me that clinches it.If, having taken a quick look at your posts, you are satisfied the farang population of Chiengmai are decent coves, that's good enough for me.Obviously there are no sexual deviants masquerading as "English teachers", scummy visa runners, alcoholics and resident sex tourists.I'm tired of the negative posts on the Chiengmai expat population.They're great in my books.

[quote name='kozi' date='2006-06-17 01:57:44' post='783943

Most of this is an observation on my part. My wife believes that the reasons why many Farangs residing in Chiang Mai are so inhospitable is that most are either:

Sexual deviants, paedophiles, drug dealers, pimps, have no valid visas or are fugitives from their own countries. In other words, Iffy for one reason or another.

Frig me! yer wife thinks like this! You must be having us on....come on! I never met any Thai woman ranting about the local Farangs in such a way!

By the way, if you were any of the above - then....why the heck are you living in Chiang Mai!?@

I agree.It seems highly unlikely any Thai woman would think of Chiengmai farangs in this way, let alone articulate it.Having said that, perhaps someone could explain to me how the "resident" farang population without work permits/one year visas(ie legally and gainfully employed) spend their time.On anecdotal evidence only many of these visa running crew are distinctly "iffy".

Wow....this topic seems to come up as often as "how much does it cost to live in Thailand".

I responded a while back on a similar thread. My brother saved his own life by using a gun. No doubt about it; and no one died as a result.

Quoting stats on gun violence in America is silly. If all types of guns in America were suddenly outlawed do you think the criminals would turn them in? No. Then the bad guys would be the only ones with guns. America is just a violent place. Why is America so violent? Do the guns themselves somehow contain 'magical' powers and force the owner to become violent? I think not. America just has a high percentage of violent people. This is the real issue that must be addressed.

Canada allows it's citizens to own guns. Yet the rate of homicides in America with guns is 8 TIMES higher than that in Canada. Why? If the existence of the guns themselves is the problem than why such a disparity in the homicide rate? TripxCore is right. I've also owned guns my whole life and thankfully never had to use one. But if a bad guy(s) enters my home I'd MUCH RATHER have my .40 for protection than a silly little can of pepper spray.

One is embarrassed "quoting statistics on gun violence is silly" to have to deal with posts like these, but it does serve to point out the intellectually bereft nature of the American gun lobby.However even the NRA would hesitate to claim the root of the problem is America just has more than its share of violent people.

As a matter of fact the multiplicity of guns is a factor in the frequency of violent acts.And to deal with a complete inaccuracy :Canadian gun laws are much more restrictive than those of most US states.There is also a rising number of Americans who are tired of the lies and greed of the gun lobby.

What this poster is really saying is that rational argument doesn't come into play on this question.

I own a handgun for protection too because there are a lot of crazy people in the world and you just never know. All the bad things you hear about in the news and nobody think it can happen to them. Well it can. It's better to be prepared. It's true, guns do not kill people. People kill people.

I do not live in Thailand though so I don't know about the laws.

So a gun will just fire itself 4 times into a victim? Spontaneous discharge?

What you said just solidified my point even more. A gun cannot just kill someone on it's own. It needs the human being behind it to manipulate it, point it and shoot. It's the person using the gun, not the gun itself.

I entirely agree.There is a lot of nonsense spouted on this subject.There is no problem with guns just the people who pull the triggers.For further background I would suggest interested parties check the National Rifle Association (NRA) in the USA.The NRA is well known for its wise and measured approach, and provides thoughtful arguments against the misguided fools who believe in gun control.Some of the anti-guns brigade come up with misleading arguments such as the annual death toll in the US from gunshots of around 30,000 compared with the UK total of about 200.Obviously that is a pure coincidence.If you believe the many academic studies that "irrefutably prove" homicide rates are directly linked to firearm ownership levels, you might as well equally believe that the gun loving proponents (usually Americans) of the argument that "people kill not guns" are in fact underendowed morons obsessed with the size of their tiny dicks.

With most other responders, I would cite examples, and elaborate further on why they are disrespectful, but considering the source... I'll just let it go.

Everyone that DID post actual positive replies on this thread, as opposed to those imagined ones, are to be commended.

Long Live The King.

You would be doing all a great favour by just keeping quiet.You are like one of those ridiculous politicians throwing around false lese majeste accusations to further their own agenda.Who the hel_l are you to decide who is loyal and who is not?

I, for one, am extremely glad that His Majesty The King will most likely never read this thread.

The idea of taking something so easily postive and turning it into such negativity what with the hijacking and off-topic posts that this thread has taken is really disappointing.... and frankly, I am disgusted by the nature of what are, essentially, disrepectful posts to His Majesty.

Collectively, we have been shamed.

What a disgraceful post.Nobody has other than the greatest respect for His Majesty and every post I have seen reflects this.It is you that has shamed this Board by making scurrilous allegations about "disrespectful posts".Shame on you.

Foreigners trying so hard to fit in with the locals here are, on the whole, viewed by Thais -- not with the respect and admiration that earlier posters are convinced they felt washing over them -- but as a bit pathetic, a bit of a joke. All those middle-aged white guys I saw today on Sukhumvit, bellies bulging in their yellow t-shirts, reminded me of the tourists who wai bar girls in Nana: out of sync and having no clue about it.

It's their country, friends. When we try to act like we are part of it, we mostly make fools of ourselves. If you don't understand that, you really don't understand much about Thais.

What a sad and pathetic outlook.

For the record, my yellow shirt was given to me by my Thai work colleagues... and it wasn't so much "admiration and respect" that they were giving me when I wore it... but more like appreciation and approval of my respect for their king and culture.

Without getting into a slanging match... you're the one that doesn't understand much about Thais.

Old Asia Hand is overegging a little to make a point, but broadly speaking he is the one who is right and you are the one who doesn't quite understand.If you really think your interpretation of your Thai colleagues' motivation is correct, you are probably incurably naive.

I do agree that there could well be room for a serious forum - a smiley free zone if you will. However, I would rather discuss even the most serious matters with a degree of levity as real life is heavy enough going at times.

I would wish for a serious forum. I don't want the whole board to be serious, but i would wish for a space that is strictly moderated in which certain topics can be discussed seriously, absolutely flame free, where discussions can be held undisturbed on a very high level. No sarcy posting of pictures replacing well researched and intelligent statements, no ad hominem attacks, with clear rules of conduct.

This would be for me professionally and personally a valuable addition here. I belive that on the board are many posters doing serious research in one way or the other in Thai and Asian studies, and would love to exchange ideas in a way that is benefitting to their research.

It's a worthy idea but, if this isn't too sensitive subject, it would require a moderator with the appropriate intellectual and cultural qualifications.

I agree this is not really a major concern in Thailand and Thais are usually rather well mannered when queuing.The suggestions, oddly enough both from moderators, that one should treat "offenders" by staring at them , pushing their stuff on the counter away, telling them they have no manners etc I'm afraid simply confirms the Thai prejudice of the crude and bad mannered farang.There are circumstanes in Thailand when the farang just can't win!!

If you can't win anyway you may as well get some satisfaction from not being walked all over. That we are being ill-mannered by pointing out their bad manners is just silly. If that makes me bad mannered then I can live with myself.

cv

I totally agree it's silly but it's also true as any informed observer of the Thai scene would tell you.

(Obviously I'm not refering to the bar scene where a quite different set of rules apply).

OK here are three from me.

Apocalypse Now

The Godfather Part II

A State of Grace (only ever met two other people that have seen this one)

Seen it, a good movie but there are better ones out there. Sean Penn is great

And Gary Oldman is brilliant