Cassandra

After posting on another thread, memories of my Bangkok day came back. This got me thinking about hanging out with farmers and the like - Lo-so.

These were great times and I love these people.

Also I spent a while with Hi-so people, down the RBSC and the like, where it was important to wear the right thing, know the right people, and all that other crap that I left my own country for. All those wannabees trying to "improve" themselves in the social order.

My best memories are hanging out with the Lo-So, playing Hi-lo.

Maybe that is why I live where I do now, spending my days off on a hammock on my friends farm listening to the rice grow.

Of course as farnags, or foreigners, we do not fit into the social order at all - no matter if we are drinking 'lao kao' baak soi with the motorcyle taxi drivers, or playing golf with general plod at the sports club.

I know which is more ebjoyable for me, what about you?

Without wishing to be unkind, most farang on this forum don't really have a choice , including you I am afraid notwithstanding your rather unconvincing comments about hanging with "hi-so people down the RBSC and the like"

Kaisaigai: "I expect an average return of around 7,5% per year and after inflation (2,5%) en taxes this will result in an real annual yield of circa 4%. My tolerance for risk is pretty low, although I know - being only 32 - I should probably invest more than 60% in stocks. "

Kaisaigai; to go back to your original question I think that is a resonable expectation for the return from a low cost, well diversified (both asset class and country/currency wise) portfolio 60/40% equity/fixed income.

That is very similar to my current portfolio split - but I have added commodities, metals and reits for more diversification. Cheers!

I thought the OP was interested in "living off" his investments. If so, then an asset allocation of 60/40 equity/fixed income would require quite a large principal amount to generate a viable income in Bangkok or any of the resort areas.

I know, it's possible to live off 25K in the boonies if your house and car are paid for, and it's possible to rent a condo for 7000 baht in Bangkok, but...

Has the OP seen what a 7000 baht condo in Bangkok looks like?

Has the OP experienced the "rural" Thai lifestyle, i.e. spent time in a village in Issan?

I am with the folks who say that to live in Thailand with any degree of comfort (subjective, I know, but at some point we need to agree that having running water, a toilet, and A/C when the temperature is 100 degrees with 95 percent humidity are among the basic requirements to be"comfortable") you will need somewhere between 50K and 100K per month before paying your rent, depending on where in the country you live and what lifestyle you choose. 200K/month would be nice in Bangkok if you wanted to live semi-hiso.

Consider that in New York, L.A., London, Tokyo, or even Hong Kong you would probably need 3 or 4 times that much to live an equivalent (semi-hiso) lifestyle.

Let's consider 50K baht per month - a little more than a decent English teacher's salary - as a baseline amount: that's 600K per year, or about $15KUS, which is most certainly borderline poverty level in most parts of the USA.

To generate $15K you would need $300K invested at a 5% after-tax yield (which is a bit more than what you would get today in a safe fixed-income investment). So, if your income producing assets are only 40% of your portfolio, that means you need a total principal amount of $750K to produce that 50K baht per month income in Thailand.

Remember that money invested in stocks (unless they have a dividend), REITs, commodities, currencies, and the like not only do not produce any current income, but may actually incur loss of principal over any given period of time.

Enough rambling for now.

Just once in a while one sees a post on the subject of Thailand cost of living which is absolutely spot on.The above is such a post, even tempered and accurate.

From correspondents in Jeddah

February 12, 2006

The three-day forum was launched in the Saudi Red Sea city of Jeddah, with Saudi and foreign participants including former US vice president Al Gore and Cherie Blair, wife of British Prime Minister Tony Blair.

Mr Schroeder's call was linked to the row raging around the world over the printing of cartoons of Prophet Mohammed, which Muslims consider as blasphemous.

"European integration is built upon the foundation of respect of other cultures, tolerance and the recognition of diversity," Mr Schroeder told the seventh annual edition of the forum, whose theme is: "Honouring Identity and Celebrating common grounds."

"This includes refraining from acts that hurt honest religious sentiment. Unfortunately in the last few months this sensitivity has been lacking in many places, including Europe," he added.

"We must get back on the path of tolerance and respect of cultural and religious beliefs," said Mr Schroeder who was welcomed by the Saudi conference organisers as an "old friend."

Ain't it wonderful.A call for tolerance and respect in a country where the practice of other religions than Islam is prohibited by law.

Sondhi, his supporters, The Alliance For Democracy have a very simple objective - to oust Thaksin from power.

A snap election, referendum, change in the constitution won't change matters much as far as they're concerned.

Thaksin's got to go. He's got to step down. Nothing else will suffice - it's as simple as that! And obviously it's going to be a very bitter pill for him to have to swallow.

THIS LAME DUCK GOVERNMENT WON'T SEE THE YEAR OUT............that's my prediction.

In other words regardless of what the Thai people might decide in a general election, you and similar farangs have concluded Thaksin must go before year end.If the visa runner fraternity actually bothered to digest what Sondhi and others (including some senior Democrats) are saying, they might appreciate a post-Thaksin regime could be even more anti foreigner.I hope Thaksin does go in due course and that the Thai people will vote him out, but it's important this happens in an orderly way.

I'm not sure if this is relevent to anyone else except UK members who have pensions from or in the UK.

I'm just wondering who here has a final salary pension, you know the ones, your pension will be a percentage of your final salary (Usually to a maximum of 2/3rds).

I have three (Two that I dropped out of but left the fund active) and the one I'm in now.

But such schemes are under threat in the UK and current opinion among finacial advisors suggests that nearly all will have closed within the next five years.

My impression is that the vast majority of these schemes have already been closed to new entrants who will instead enter a money purchase scheme.Its worth making the point that there is no threat to those currently receiving pensions under final salary schemes, unless of course the fund cannot meet its obligations.Those who have just become pensioners aged 60 under a final salary scheme are very lucky boys.It all looks a lot grimmer for the younger generation.

I don't know why I keep replying but I do.Cassandra is absolutely spot on, 25,000 USD is anything but middle class, in the U.K the same would be 13,000 GBP, this is lower class infact poverty line stuff.Middle class is a family income of approx 45,000 GBP, 80,000USD.

This topic is changing rapidly and I think the Americans amongst us a great deal of you are suffering from the America the Great Syndrome. EPG.

quote: I don't know why I keep replying but I do.

Pretty obvious....another American basher......have fun!

I can see why you might think so but I am far from being an America basher.In fact in my last post I was on the point of concluding on the following lines.The great redeeming factor is that in the US it is possible through ability and hard work to achieve great things and move upwards, more so I think than in Europe and other "old" countries.The US is definitely the land of opportunity but it is not a land to be poor in and the capitalist baron class is a generally repulsive one.And my points hold.To have a man like Cheney as VP is a national disgrace.One can only speculate what a great American such as FDR would say to this man.I'm no socialist but do believe that a mark of a civilized society is how it treats its lowest and most helpless individuals.By this criterion America currently fails.But most Americans are decent and generous.It's high time they had a government reflecting these qualities.

...Any observer of the US is often surprised to see clearly blue collar or working class types describe themselves as middle class...

I think we're talking different definitions here because I don't see why blue collar or working class can't be middle class. What are the other options? Lower class? Uppper class? Rich? Poor? These latter 2 are the most common.

Dealing with the income side doesn't cover the whole story since taxes are supposedly much lower in the US than in Europe, especially for low incomes. Consumer goods aren't as expensive either - Wal-Mart, nor is food. Plus a side effect of all the consumerism is that people trade up all the time and used furniture, electronics, cars, etc. are all easy to find for great prices. So you can be "middle class" on lower incomes.

Mm, interesting though bizarre point.I suppose what I am saying reflects my view that the American system seeks to convince large numbers of people, who by any rational definition are not very well off, that they are "middle class" and thus should accept the status quo.Meanwhile the fat cats prosper.This leads to a situation where a men like George Bush and Dick Cheney can get elected to very high office, whereas such people would be unelectable anywhere else in the civilised world.The joke is that the relatively poor people who vote for leaders so unsympathetic to their genuine interests can ignore reality by wrapping themselves in the American flag and thinking of themselves as "middle class".

"all Americans seem to think their middle class"

Most of them ARE middle-class, and that's what makes that country economically viable. The bottom 10% can't afford the luxuries that you expect, and the top 10% only buy relatively few (but, generally expensive things. Economically, the middle-class in the US make between $25K-$100K, and they buy most of the stuff. It's a wide financial disparity, but that doesn't preclude the term "middle-class".

Too, isn't the phrase "living off your investments" the same as "retired"? At least in the US, retirees generally have a better standard of living than those who are still working.

You can also try the calculator @ www.financialengines.com, developed by a Nobel Prize winning economist. It's very cool.

You simply repeat my point that most Americans (80% by your calculation) consider themselves middle class.But to outsiders it seems very strange.Taking the bottom of your middle class spectrum ($25,000) this might indicate middle class in say India but would definitely not in prosperous parts of Europe.Any observer of the US is often surprised to see clearly blue collar or working class types describe themselves as middle class.My guess is that this anomoly may have historical roots dating back to slavery.Subconsciously many Americans may feel there is a black underclass which would always mean under achieving whites are not , in their own estimation at least, at the bottom of the pile.The dreadful scenes in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina suggest they may have a point.

so i hope we all agree now

Yep...In summary, it easily costs between 25K and 250K Bt per month..

Seriously, After mortgage & car payments, I live fine on under 40K Bt/ month in one of the more expensive cities in the US so no reason that it would not be do-able on 25K in Isaan assuming housing and auto are clear.

You can spend as much as you want. Some travel to Bangkok and insist on paying western prices to stay in certain hotels when they could stay in a perfectly nice hotel for a fraction of the cost. Same with 1st class plane tickets when coach gets them there...Some have champagne habits on a beer income while others have beer habits on a champagne income......Different strokes for different folks.....although I tend to be a bit more utilitarian myself..

LOL......yea these threads always end up the same. Since most OP aren't too specific on how they live I always try to answer the question from a 'middle-class' life style. The OP can then adjust up/down depending on their needs.

I think I've found (after trying different options) a combination that would well suit a large percentage of ex-pats. I don't like the 'boonies' like where my wife is from. Just not enough infrastructure; nothing to do. I don't like living in the city. Too much pollution, noise, traffic, etc. So I live 9 miles outside of Udon Thani. My nearest neighbor about 200 yards away. Beautiful views and quiet. Can pop over to the village restaurant for some tasty dishes (20 baht) when the wife doesn't want to cook or quickly drive into town for American/Mexican/whatever food. The city is close enough that we drive into town maybe 3 times a week on average. The downside is you gotta have a vehicle; some people don't want to make that commitment/expense. Upside is as you get 'out of town' rents/buying price goes down. The house I'm renting would cost double in town. This 'system of Thai living' works for me and should be applicable in any area of Thailand.

Steve

Sounds idyllic and would suit many people including myself in a few years time.But its not by any stretch of the imagination a "middle class" lifestyle which would imply a much more upmarket and higher cost lifestyle.Its a low end and low cost rural existence and none the worse for that.But maybe you're from the USA where everyone and everything are middle class.

you needed a lawyer to do the thinking and behaving for you.

Having help from a legal firm with experience in the process isn't necessarily a bad thing. For example, in my case my employer considered my PR to be a personal matter, and didn't care about it at all. As I anticipated, I got all kinds of incorrect and incomplete documents from HR because they couldn't be bothered to check anything. So while I speak Thai just fine and don't need any advice on how to behave, I really did need someone smart to make sure the documentation was all correct.

The legal staff also did a lot of last-minute running around for me when it turned out some extra documents had to be certified by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs at the last minute. I submitted the application on December 29th and I couldn't have made it on time without help.

Those who work for multinationals or own their own company probably wouldn't have this problem, but if you are the only farang in a Thai company it's a different matter altogether.

Incidentally, I've never seen an account on ThaiVisa of what happens after you get PR and have to register with the local police station. Anyone got any stories to tell? Is it possible to get a 5-year stamp right away? A friend who got his PR many years ago told me he had to cough up a bottle of Johnny Walker before Thong Lor police would do anything, but when he subsequently moved to another suburb he had no problems at all.

Camerata,

Registration with the local police station was absolutely no problem.The nice old cop there painstakingly inscribed my red book and in beautiful handwriting too.Didn't ask or expect anything either though I subsequently sent my driver with a reasonable tip (Bt 1000 as I recall).Where I did have a minor problem was registration of my name on the tabien baan, and a somewhat crusty official at the local government office was a little unhelpful.But it was sorted out quite quickly and it's likely this was the first time he had encountered a farang making such a request.He didn't get a tip! In summary once you have your approval the follow up is very straight forward.

well cassandra - it worked for me that way. got PR without any hassles, without lawyer, with just the proper papers and attitude.

be a good thai means: pen riep roi.

but guess you dont get that.

you needed a lawyer to do the thinking and behaving for you.

little surprise my post was confusing for you.

Though sorely provoked (be a good thai means :pen riep roi etc),I am going to heed Lopburi's advice and avoid responding in kind to silliness.Nevertheless for the benefit of others considering applying for PR the benefit of a lawyer is to save time and trouble, particularly on the rather impressive weight of paperwork required.A decent lawyer will also be able to brief you on the politics of the application process, which has been quite complicated in recent years.As an individual you still have to present yourself,chat to the officials, pass the Thai test and meet all other criteria.It helps if your command of Thai is satisfactory.And its just worth remembering Immigration cannot approve PR, only recommend.Approval is the preogative of the Ministry of Interior.

Tricky question this how much is enough.I moved to Thailand from the U.K at 25 ( pretty young I know) I still work and earn good money, well...very good.I don't go back to the U.k and don't really plan to.In my 30's now.I reckon that 140,000 baht a month would be a good figure to get each month and be able to call it a day.That should cover all situations, for me I have a wife and young family so intend to crack on for another year earning then take a look, with a young family I want over 200,000baht a month pension. Quality of life is the priority and regardless of what I earn I WILL call it a day within 12 months.

Some of the figures quoted of 25,000....there just ridiculous.

After reading this post an objective person with some knowledge of Thailand would conclude that you don't even live here! After paying ALL my 'necessary & normal' expenses each month (including rent & the father-in-laws truck payment of 3500 baht) the total comes to around 30,000 baht. After that the amount I spend on travel, recreation, etc. is an individual choice.

If a person pays cash for his house & car he can then have a pretty decent life style on 25,000 each month depending on his needs, etc. To make a post like this and say 140,000-200,000 is needed is a joke and passing on bogus info like this does not help those considering a move here.

It is amusing how hot and bothered people get on this subject.I can summarise by saying that what posters have available themselves -whether it's Bt 25000 or Bt 140,000- is by some miraculous coincidence what one needs to get by in Thailand.I have friends here whose monthly income ranges from Bt 40,000 to Bt 500, 000.All have full and interesting lives.Nevertheless those at the lower end are not able to save a great deal or do as much travelling as they would like.For those planning to come here I would suggest you plan on Bt 100,000 pm.But I stress it all depends on your circumstances.If you are a 23 year old kid Bt 30,000 should be fine.But frankly there's something rather sad about a middle aged man with wife and children trying to manage on this, particularly if they are in "father in law's truck payment" mode.

junpin' in late. a point ignored in here: if you show decent honest respect for thailand and its culture you will be fine. if you're making up things, they'll find out. be who you are, don't fake anything. but figures are important (tax). and if you're a journalist, present them some images showing you with prominent people. guess you got that. the whole application process is tiresome, but no magic. with a non-decent position you could pay a lawyer to get PR. I wouldn't feel good about it. its the corruption that destroys so much around here. so: when you go for the interview, be a good thai. they'll appreciate it.

A confusing post and one suspects a confused thought process at work.Certainly be honest.The more relevant point is that it makes excellent sense to retain a reputable Thai lawyer when applying for PR.It can be done without if you have excellent Thai language skills.For most however it makes sense and carries no connotation with corruption at all.I obtained PR several years ago and it was all remarkably painless.In reference to an earlier question it does no harm to have letters of support from senior Thais but not essential.Top rank civil servants and similar pooyai types better than businessmen however senior.

The advice about being "a good Thai" is comically inappropriate.Suan Plu are looking for suitable foreigners, the more respectable the better -not pseudo Thais.

The hardcore malcontents here that proclaim persistently that Thailand is an impossible place in which to do business remind of a story I was told in a sales training course long ago. It went something like:

Back in the early 20th Century, a shoe manufacturing company was trying to decide which of two junior sales managers had the best potential for advancement. So they sent the two off to a remote part of Africa, each carrying a case of sample shoes, to see what potential existed for developing business in the target region. After a month, the home office received a wire from the first salesman: SITUATION HERE HOPELESS STOP NO ONE WEARS SHOES STOP AM RETURNING ON NEXT SHIP BACK. The next day, they received a wire from the second salesman OPPORTUNITIES HERE UNLIMITED! STOP EVERYONE'S BAREFOOT STOP SEND MORE SHOES IMMEDIATELY. The second salesman went on to take over the company and carry it to great profitability

A situation is what you make of it.

Every time ten or twenty whiners moan and complain about something on this board, all I can think of is: "Man, this shortfall in ____ probably represents a good business opportunity for someone to step in and fill a void".

But - that's not how most of the embittered souls here act. They only seem to be able to come up with "Gee, let's open another beer bar - we can probably make a lot of money doing that."

I've pretty much expressed just about everyhting I can think of to say, so I will now leave it to the "n'aer do wells" to have the last word, as they wallow around it their misery over how it is impossible to do business in Thailand.

No one speaks English. The best communications you can get in Bangkok are two tin cans connected by a piece of string. Thais are all blook-sucking harpies who exist only to steal from their employers - and while they are stealing is the only time they aren't asleep on the job. The arithmetic (not algebra, not calculus) required to compute withholding tax in Thailand is beyond the capabilities of anyone without a PhD in mathematics, and a typical day for a foreign businessman in Thailand is spent ladling out company cash to a steady stream of Thai government officials who visit all foreigners daily, to extract the daily bribe.

I feel sorry for the pathetic creatures who live in that dismal alternate universe.

'Bye,

Steve

Indo-Siam

You are right to emphasise Thailand is a market where business can do well.One only has to look around to see the economic transformation of the country over the last 40 years, and this has been accomplished almost entirely by capitalist animal spirits.The trouble is for small time foreign entrepreneurs is that the odds are against them unless they can operate under the radar screen.Obviously there are some exceptions (eg Distrithai) but there have been amazingly few farang controlled success stories with some critical mass, lets say turnover of $10m plus/net profit $3m plus.The reasons for this have been debated on this forum before.Indo-Siam has a good reputation but let's face it you are on the whole dealing with inexperienced small fry who are looking for some reason to be in Thailand.Nothing wrong with this but the fact you sponsor TV, Stickman etc indicates your market.

Given their crap income and lack of resources to actually do what they want to do - they are o.k.

Sure, you get a bad egg in the basket - but generally they are decent human beings.

Just keep smiling.....................

Pardon me. Are you a born again christian, or living in cloud cuckoo land? They are all bent as nine bob notes. Thats why new recruits ar queuing up for a very low paid job. I would not call them if I was in trouble. In the past, they have just made things worse.

Hi again Simbo, I'm not a born again Christian nor am I living in cloud cuckoo land. My wife's brother has been in the RTP for 35 years and is due to retire as a lieutenant colonel in October. Previously, he has served in the CIB in Bangkok, the Customs & Excise Police, the Transport Police, the Highway Police, in Southern Thailand recently and, at present he leads the Border Division Police at Mae Sot.

I have known him for 13 years and I have met many of his colleagues from the aforesaid locations, mostly socially. None of the officers that I have met resemble anything like a nine-bob note. They have always been polite, efficient, friendly, respectful and straight.. My brother-in-law is typical of many career bobbies in Thailand. Please don't judge them all as being bent. Have a read of some of the novels by Martina Cole about East End of London Policemen...particularly "Maura's Game" and "The Know". She knows all about bent coppers. Cheers Simbo.

This thread is not proving very helpful because all posters seem to be saying most of their encounters with the police have been positive.So as a matter of fact have mine.But reality is (ask almost any unbiased Thai) that most Thai policemen are bent.In a conversation with a senior politician a few years ago he said he thought reform of the police force and stamping out its endemic corruption was one of the country's great challenges.This is not to say of course there aren't any honest officers, but they are a minority.

Ahem . . . any recommendations yet on reading material?

Hi Tippaporn:

From the top of my head 'Democracy, Shaken and Stirred' by Win Lyovarin (Translated to Eng)

This book was winner of the SEA Write Award 1997 and Thai National Book Award 1995.

The book, like i personally mentioned before argues that 'Thailand has never known a true democracy'

The book also delves into a couple of so-called taboo issues of modern Thai history but due to legal reasons touches on them very 'implyingly'

What is very interesting is that he argues that The Oct 1973 incident was 'a political farce' and the riots and killings were orchestrated by politicians. His arguement is a good one too.

He also writes a lot about the CPT and their activities. Then he goes into Gen Prem and 1980, the end of the CPT etc.....Unfortunately for Cassandra though, he too fails to mention one word about The Chinese being involved in their demise. This is contrary to what Cassandra 'completely made up' with his 'most historians say........'

Type the name into a google search to read a review or two. Happy reading!

Steve

Oh dear I had previously taken you seriously as your previous post was generally plausible but it seems my original scepticism was spot on.For the uninitiated,Win Lyovarin is melodramatic novelist not a historian, and not a particularly good one at that..I had to restrain a snigger at your reference to his winning the Thai National Book Award.(The Booker Prize it ain't).More comical still is your reference to his insight that the 1973 riots were orchestrated by politicians.How original!!! I do however agree he is worth reading but for sociological reasons rather than anything else.

Not sure why you are so concerned to downplay the Chinese realpolitik which cut the ground from underneath the CPT.Chris Baker for example would make the point even stronger than I have.Maybe you should tell him and other historians they are making things up.Or maybe you can just ring up one of your (imaginary?) ex-jungle/CPT friends for a supportive story if they can spare the time from share trading.

QUOTE: May be you can just ring up one of your (imaginary?) ex-jungle/CPT friends for a supportive story if they can spare the time from share trading

It is advised that when trying to take the pish to firstly verify the authenticity of some facts!!

It was in fact another member who posted that he had a friend who was CPT, pls check back!! Sabaijai was it!?

Sorry to remind you like.

Tippaporn is still waiting for Thailand's finest honoured historian named Cassandram to recommend him a book! Seems to do a lot of moaning and bickering so let's now see some action!!

Quickly quickly.....and no cheating! we know you have been using a quick google search recently to find a fault to criticise someone! Sorry but the likes of 'Hello, my big big honey' or 'The Rough Guides To Thailand' won't be accepted!

Pls Tippaporn don't listen to Cassandrum's book reviews! He probably never even heard of the author til he did a google search! LOL............

Here is a review of the book/author etc.... i mentioned above (The Nation Newspaper)

http://www.winbookclub.com/interview_detail.php?id=39

Yes it was Sabaijai who had the ex-commy friend.We've already heard about your academic background in some detail.I have my suspicions based on what you have stated that some of this is imaginary but let's not get into that.I never claimed, as you did, to be a Thai specialist but I do have an academic history background (Edinburgh University, M.A).I am aware of the consensus view on post WW2 Thai history based on secondary local and foreign sources.You strangely have come up with a rather lurid novelist as reading matter for our friend Tippaporn yet assuming you are what you say you are, you should have been able to come up with decent list of accessible books.Do a Google search if you can't manage!(Actually although you were trying to be cutting I don't have a problem with using Google intelligently.That's what it's there for)

Sounds like this could be good. Could be ideal for Sunbelt ThaiVisa FC post-match beers too! This could integrate quite nicely with the football team side of things, actually.

What a brilliant idea.It's really hard to think of a more inviting and socially exclusive opportunity than to mingle with the Sunbelt ThaiVisa team during their "post-match beers".Clearly this is going to be an establishment of real class.Forget the Royal Bangkok Sports Club and the Royal Varuna:they're for losers.I am tingling with anticipation at the prospect of meeting these distinguished and charming people, and brushing up on the Queen's English as I am a little afraid these boys are going to be too posh for me.Be still my beating heart.

I disagree completely with the two posts above and respectfully suggest that they both have more to do with the posters' self-interests than anything even remotely resembling the truth.

I have been involved in international banking and corporate finance in Thailand for over twenty years. English language proficiency and educational standards in general among local employees here is the worst in Asia and the technical support infrastructure is a joke. "Good internet is cheap and easy to come and dependable," the above poster says, which is just utter nonsense. The total available international bandwidth in Thailand is controlled by corrupt government agencies and the speed is entirely dependant on how much of this restricted bandwidth may be made available at any particular time. As a rule, internet access here is both slow and completely unreliable. Technical support is nonexistent, both due to a lack of training and because problem solving is not part of the Thai culture.

Based on your quite general description of what you are looking for, I think you would be nuts to consider anywhere other than Singapore. Thailand is a third world country. No amount of cheerleading by local residents who have, for whatever reason, made their bed here is going to change that. And the Thais themselves haven't the slightest interest in changing it other than to prattle on and on about their own self-importance.

If you want food and women, come to Thailand. If you actually want to do international business in the twenty-first century, however, go to Singapore (although the food in Singapore isn't bad either).

Anyone who has worked in at a responsible management position in Thailand would know that what Old Asia Hand has written is broadly true.The trouble, addressing the original question,is that this forum is not really populated by many who are qualified to respond sensibly.Rightly or wrongly one has the impression only a small minority are gainfully employed with work permits at a senior level in Thailand.Most of the discussion on investment and management issues comes from small timers and visa runers who "love" Thailand and want to buy a "business" (and of course from those who feed off them).

"He is our Prime Minister and if me and the Thai people decide that we dont want him any more then we will VOTE him out."

Ah, the charming innocence and beauty of the Thai people comes through again.... They have nearly as much simple-minded belief in democracy as George W. Bush, who rants about bringing democracy to the Middle East, then is horrified when Palestinians vote for Hamas. I'm afraid that Toxin has entrenched himself far too deeply in the Thai power structure, with all his friends and relatives in key positions, to ever be simply voted out. He has closely copied marvelous role models in perverting democracy such as Lee Kwan Yu of Singapore (his favorite), Mahathir Muhammed of Malaysia (a close second) and other democratic dictators like Hun Sen of Cambodia, the long-lasting Suharto of Indonesia, and of course the ultimate wet dreams of the dictatorial nutcases, the democratically-elected Hitler, the slimy kill-em-off approach of Stalin, the popularly-acclaimed madman Mao, the vicious outbursts of mass murder of Toxin's good buddy Than Shwe of Burma, and let us not forget the loser of the popular vote who was selected by his friends in the Supreme Court, Bush of the USA. In other words, folks, get rid of power-monsters like Toxin by any means at any opportunity, or be prepared to suffer at their hands for many, many years to come.

Few of us have much enthusiasm for Thaksin.My own take is a sense of disappointment at opportunities wasted but I doubt whether he is less effective than many past PMs.What's interesting is the intense dislike he generates among some members of this forum.Even some who are meant to be independent arbiters feel free to indulge in abusive language such as "Toxin".The post above ludicrously compares him to Hitler and Stalin.The more obvious and apt comparison I would have thought is to Berlusconi.However it's best to remember -for those that live here- we are guests in this country and while entitled to express our views should do so with politeness.It's simply untrue that Thaksin can never be voted out of power.

Ahem . . . any recommendations yet on reading material?

Hi Tippaporn:

From the top of my head 'Democracy, Shaken and Stirred' by Win Lyovarin (Translated to Eng)

This book was winner of the SEA Write Award 1997 and Thai National Book Award 1995.

The book, like i personally mentioned before argues that 'Thailand has never known a true democracy'

The book also delves into a couple of so-called taboo issues of modern Thai history but due to legal reasons touches on them very 'implyingly'

What is very interesting is that he argues that The Oct 1973 incident was 'a political farce' and the riots and killings were orchestrated by politicians. His arguement is a good one too.

He also writes a lot about the CPT and their activities. Then he goes into Gen Prem and 1980, the end of the CPT etc.....Unfortunately for Cassandra though, he too fails to mention one word about The Chinese being involved in their demise. This is contrary to what Cassandra 'completely made up' with his 'most historians say........'

Type the name into a google search to read a review or two. Happy reading!

Steve

Oh dear I had previously taken you seriously as your previous post was generally plausible but it seems my original scepticism was spot on.For the uninitiated,Win Lyovarin is melodramatic novelist not a historian, and not a particularly good one at that..I had to restrain a snigger at your reference to his winning the Thai National Book Award.(The Booker Prize it ain't).More comical still is your reference to his insight that the 1973 riots were orchestrated by politicians.How original!!! I do however agree he is worth reading but for sociological reasons rather than anything else.

Not sure why you are so concerned to downplay the Chinese realpolitik which cut the ground from underneath the CPT.Chris Baker for example would make the point even stronger than I have.Maybe you should tell him and other historians they are making things up.Or maybe you can just ring up one of your (imaginary?) ex-jungle/CPT friends for a supportive story if they can spare the time from share trading.

Anyone notice how much attention The Nation gave tomorrow's rally in today's edition. They've gone from hardly giving Sondhi's previous rallies at Lumpini a mention to overwhelming coverage now.

Me thinks an editorial decision was made to get behind Sondhi and the rally in light of the revelations concerning Shin's sale to Temasek - probably see it as their best chance now, in a climate of anger directed at Thaksin for cheating the treasury out of billions of baht.

Also, they appear to be alluding to a quickly diminishing confidence in Thaksin by some TLT party members and others.

The Thaksin power base will crumble.....and built on fear.....it could crumble at the foundations if the defections increase and loyalty melts away in the next week.

Listen hard you old coots.Thaksin did not cheat the treasury of one baht.There is no tax payable under Thai regulations on listed share sales.You could argue that the sale was politically unwise, but that's another matter.I'm no Thaksin fan but it's tiresome to read these posts from various codgers who simply haven't bothered to get to grips with the facts of this case.There are various questions outstanding mainly relating to tender offer considerations, but Thaksin is clean on the tax side.

Suggest you get a copy of today's Nation or read it on-line.

Front page - sub-heading: "The richest man in the kingdom simply does not have the moral fibre to lead us."

It's not just this case - but even here - rules and regulations were deliberately twisted to facilitate this extremely dubious and shady transaction. Thaksin was yet again working the government - the senate etc. - to benefit himself and his cronies.

There's an unprecedented anger brewing now against Thaksin.....not just about the aforementioned matter, but about many other extremely serious matters which relate to Thaksin's corruption and authoritarianism....too many to mention.....

His days are seriously numbered now.

And, sorry, I beg to differ, but Thaksin is absolutely not clear on the tax matter. In fact, he's now in deep, deep doodoo by all accounts concerning his relationship with Ample Rich and the relevant declarations he made at the time - or didn't!

.I challenge you on this forum to give chapter and verse specifically on the tax issue on how Thaksin acted illegally.This means tax evasion as opposed to tax avoidance, the latter being legal in every jurisdiction.Be specific not just general blather about cronyism etc.

Anyone notice how much attention The Nation gave tomorrow's rally in today's edition. They've gone from hardly giving Sondhi's previous rallies at Lumpini a mention to overwhelming coverage now.

Me thinks an editorial decision was made to get behind Sondhi and the rally in light of the revelations concerning Shin's sale to Temasek - probably see it as their best chance now, in a climate of anger directed at Thaksin for cheating the treasury out of billions of baht.

Also, they appear to be alluding to a quickly diminishing confidence in Thaksin by some TLT party members and others.

The Thaksin power base will crumble.....and built on fear.....it could crumble at the foundations if the defections increase and loyalty melts away in the next week.

Listen hard you old coots.Thaksin did not cheat the treasury of one baht.There is no tax payable under Thai regulations on listed share sales.You could argue that the sale was politically unwise, but that's another matter.I'm no Thaksin fan but it's tiresome to read these posts from various codgers who simply haven't bothered to get to grips with the facts of this case.There are various questions outstanding mainly relating to tender offer considerations, but Thaksin is clean on the tax side.

Has Anybody heard of

Second Residency Visas

MAYBE for only for Citizens of ASEAN Member Countries?

NOT for Diplomatic staff

Just for Ordinary Folk.

A Sri Lankan friend (and I on his behalf)

have been trying to find out ...

He says that Malaysia issues them

and other Sri Lankans have been given them by

Malaysia and Thailand.

He says when he contacted the Thai Embassy in Colombo

they refused to answer questions or give info!

I have searched web sites - but have not phoned any

Thai office due to Language problem.

Does anybody know anything about such Visas?

Can you point me in the right direction please?

Bill

No idea but since Sri Lanka is not an Asean member I can see why Thai Embassy in staff in Colombo might have been bemused.

I am no tax expert but in reply to jbaldwin I will give you the benefit of my limited UK tax knowledge.

If you are ordinarily non-resident for UK tax purposes then any income earned overseas is free of UK tax. However, I understand that any income generated in the UK, e.g. interest from your savings account, is liable to UK taxation. However, you are also entitled to a UK tax allowance that should cover the interest received from a modest savings account. Hence you would not pay tax if the interest received is less than the tax allowance. The UK tax allowance is 4895 pounds sterling for the Tax Year beginning April 2005.

Secondly, I think I am right in saying that under the terms of the double taxation agreement between Thailand and the UK, your UK pension is not exempt from UK tax. As above, you can offset your personal tax allowance against your pensionable income to minimise your tax liability. As your pension is taxed in the UK you should not pay tax in Thailand.

That seems clear enough.One question I can't get an answer to is as follows.Even if one has no liability for tax in Thailand (eg because pension taxed in the UK and no other Thai generated income) is it a requirement as a Thai resident to submit a tax return to the Thai authorities even if this shows nil liability?

I

Couple of points

I lived on a bit of a crappy estate in the UK and I never feared about being killed, but not wanting to get my head mashed and/or crippled in made try to avoid walking past certain pubs at kick out/off time.

Thats the reason a lot of people feel safe here, its not the safety from something as extreme as murder, but more the safety that it seems your less likely to get attacked for some chavs/gangs etc. that are just out for a Friday night buzz.

But these (chavs/gangs) are exactly the people who holiday in Pattaya.I'm not just having a dig at Pattaya.Have you actually seen (or God help us heard) the Brits who vacation there?