tangoll

donx, thanks for your kind words. I realize that it's near impossible to get actual transaction data from even people in the real estate market, or even get data from Land Dept office, where the data they receive on transactions are skewed. Real estate agents only deal in asking prices and rarely do you find an agent that seems to know what's really going on in the market. However, the one single best piece of information that I got on the Bangkok condo market was from an agent, who said: "In this area (Patumwan/BTS Ratchethewi), there are many buyers from outside of Bangkok who want to buy someplace for their children who are attending the schools here (Chula, Mahidol Univs, etc), and they will pay up to 6 mil baht." My two sales transactions bear out that comment.

Now, I think the price of gasoline will cause many car owners who used to drive to work to alter their living/commuting habits. Not only the higher price of car fuel, but having to wait 2 - 3 hours to get a partial fill-up. Bangkok workers will want to get living quarters closer to town, convenient to public transportation (more the BTS than MRT), and because of overall higher unit cost, buyers need to stay in the smaller unit sizes (studios and 1 bedrooms) and keep the overall cost to around the 6 mil baht mark. Plus Thai buyers only want to buy something brand new or near new.

There are different formulas and rates for each tax/fee due; so it's not a straight or linear extrapolation. It also depends on how many years the condo has been held under the current owner's name(s). But I would say that your estimate of about baht 53,000 wouldn't be too far off the actual amount calculated by the Land Dept office.

In your first post, you imply that the sale would be done by related parties; ie joint names to single name due to whatever. In that case, you could declare a reasonable value for the transaction, which would reduce your tax/fee liability somewhat. You might also consider a small donation to smooth the process.

But you better have some local person familiar with this Land Office/transfer of ownership process to help you. If it's a condo unit, you also need a letter from the condo juristic person stating that the unit has no money owing on it, and if the purchaser is a non-Thai, you will need a letter from the juristic person certifying the foreign quota status of the condo building, and more importantly, the purchaser must provide the Foreign Exchange Transaction Certificates showing the import of funds to make this purchase.

In the US, state universities have one set of prices for residents of the state and a much higher price for non-residents. Public elementary or secondary schools are mostly free for residents of the local area; I don't even know if non-residents can attend, even if willing to pay for the attendance.

There are so many examples of different pricings for different things for residents vs non-residents, citizens vs non-citizens, that I don't think Thailand is unique in having different pricings based on different criteria. The only thing is that I think such different pricing should be made widely known so that people can choose whether to attend or not.

John2, in my earlier post about transferring money out after sale of a condo, the limit on what can be exported depends upon the transaction value of the sale as reported on the Land Dept office tax payment receipt.

The US$20K number occurs in several instances:

1. On import of funds, the Foreign Exchange Transaction Certificate is issued only when the funds imported is at least US$20K or equivalent in other foreign currency. But I've read of other instances here in TV where a bank would issue its own letter for amounts imported of less than US$20K.

2. I understand that an individual arriving into Thailand by air, sea, etc., must declare if he/she is carrying more than US$20K or equivalent in cash or other negotiable instruments. I don't know if it is illegal to bring in more than US$20K; only that it must be declared, I guess to somebody, because the Thai landing card has no spot to make that declaration (like in the landing card for entry into the US).

3. I don't know if when leaving Thailand, one must declare if carrying more than US$20K or equiv out of country.

Several years ago, I sprained my wrist in Tokyo and went to the Keio Univ hospital. While treatment was different, the Japanese paying their bills at the cashier's counter were paying fees like 500 yen, 450 yen, 700 yen, etc (I'm sure of this because I speak Japanese and understand what was being said to the patient for payment). When it came to my turn, my bill was 16,000 yen because I did not have a Japanese ID card.

In Hong Kong, patients using the public hospital authority hospitals/clinics with HK ID card pay only HK$100 per visit regardless of procedure or medicines used or provided; patients without a HK ID card have a menu of fees which are like HK$600 for consultation, $250 per x-ray, etc.

And many countries at airport immigration would have separate lines for residents/citizens vs visitors/non-residents. What you don't pay for in money, you usually pay for in time spent in queues. In some EU countries like France, Switzerland, Germany (the ones I've passed thru) are there single lines for all travelers.

So what's the big deal about Thai parks, palaces, etc charging different prices for Thais vs. non-Thais or some other similar discrimination criteria?

I sold and transferred one condo unit at Address@Siam, 84 sqm, 2 bed/2 bath, brand new, held by me about two months. I was original purchaser from developer at launch 1.5 years ago. Original purchase cost was 6.1 mil baht, sold for 7.25 mil baht to Chiang Rai family that needed a condo for their children to attend Chula Univ.

I have lived in and held for one year a condo unit at Baan Klang Krung Siam Patumwan, 81 sqm, 2 bed/2 bath, and just completed Sales and Purchase Agreement to sell the unit to a Thai family that needed a condo for their children attending Chula Univ. This unit was sold by developer at launch about 3 years for ago for 5.0 mil baht, I had bought on resale about 2 years ago for 6.3 mil baht, and my contracted sale price is 7.63 mil baht. I added eqpt (A/Cs, water heaters, washer, frig, curtain rods, shower door, etc) to make it livable.

I have since purchased on a resale a 61 sqm, 1 bed/1 bath condo unit in Noble Remix, at Sukhumvit/Thong Lor, for 6.0 mil baht, with expected transfer date May 2009. Original launch price of this unit was 5.0 mil baht.

I have also contracted to take over a 51 sqm, 1 bed/1 bath condo unit in Condo One X due for transfer in Oct 2008, for 4.1 mil baht, vs. original launch price of 3.9 mil baht about 1.5 years ago. I think original contract purchaser did not want to have to put up the final installment of 75% to complete the transfer with developer so had to bail out.

All sales figures given above are actual transaction figures.

I just completed sale of condo unit held less one year: total tax and fees paid at Land Dept office on a declared transaction value of 7.25 mil baht was 45,400 baht. These taxes included specific business tax, withholding tax, stamp duty, and transfer fee, all in, everything. This computation was under the reduced rates introduced in April 2008 and effective for one year.

There was a similar question in another post in the Real estate section, and the answer to the question of how to legally export funds after a sale of a condo, was, in the case of Bangkok Bank, the following documents must be supplied:

1. Funds transfer application form accompanied by passport copy and bank account book or other account document

2. Copies of Foreign Exchange Transaction Certificate showing the import of the funds for purchase of condo

3. Copy of condo's chanote, title deed, both front and back sides

4. Copy of the transaction document showing the transfer of ownership. This is the document that accompanies the chanote and is issued by the Land Dept office.

5. Original of the blue tax/fees payment form obtained from the Land Dept office when the tax was computed and paid.

I do not know what the requirements from other banks may be, or if there are different requirements for land or house property. The total amount that can be exported can be as great as the transaction value as declared to the Land Dept office and on which the tax/fees were computed.

Has anyone any experience using a local moving company within Bangkok that will pack household goods and store goods in their own warehouse for a period of a few months, then deliver to another address within Bangkok.

I have to vacate my apartment by end of August, and my newly purchased apartment won't be ready for about 2 - 3 months; thus need to pack a one bedroom apartment's furnishings, and store them for 2 to 3 months before delivering to the new place.

Would appreciate any name, telephone, email of any moving company that provides this within Bangkok service.

Thank you.

Here are some ways I have heard of to lessen legally the amount of tax you, as seller, might pay:

1. negotiate with the buyer that the buyer pays part of the tax/fees due

- as a straight percentage, such as 50/50, or

- if the buyer wishes to underdeclare, then 50/50 up to lower amount, and

you as seller pay 100% of the rest up to the actual selling price

2. split up the actual selling price into two or more parts:

a. the portion for the property, which is the declared amount to Land Office

b. the extras, such as sinking fund, electric meter deposit, fitted equipment,

furniture, improvements to the property that can be documented, etc.

c. any real estate agent's commission

With the incentive tax/fees less than 1% now, these may not seem too significant, but if rates

get reverted to pre-incentive levels, 6 - 8% for condos held less than five years, the tax savings

become more interesting.

I had asked the same question some time back, and the reply from Sunbelt Legal was, yes, you must show an original FETC(s) when transferring ownership for a condo if ownership is to be under a non Thai national's name. Since the Land Dept office kept the original FETC of your first purchase, you no longer have the actual original FETC of that purchase, and thus you must import in new funds to get another FETC.

Check other threads here asking what documents are needed by Bangkok Bank to export baht you gained from the first purchase. Your bank may not require the same documents, so you had better ask your own bank, or perhaps the bank has a way of doing the export/import to get you the FETC.

Newbee, that's a tricky one. Only thing you can do is to ask your bank what they need from you to transfer your proceeds out. Let us know what you find out from the bank.

My personal advice would be to not disclose the fact of your having signed a purchase commitment agreement with a developer, and then having sold the re-asssignment of that purchase agreement. You might tell the bank that you brought funds in with intention to purchase a condo (which is true) but you didn't find a condo worth completing the purchase on (which is also true because the value of selling the re-assignment of your purchase contract was worth more than the value of completing your purchase). Tell the bank you now have given up trying to use the funds to purchase a condo, and you now wish to repatriate the funds. Tell the bank the truth, but not all the details.

Unless the bank knows the details of your original purchase agreement, such as location, name of developer, etc., I can't see the bank wanting to dig out the facts of your purchase commitment and subsequent resale.

Each bank might require different things, but this is what Bangkok Bank told me (I copied this from another thread with same question) plus since you mention houses, then I guess it depends also on how you purchased the house/land, and whether Thai nationals were involved in the ownership, individuals or companies, etc.

Quote:

I just sold a condo and asked at Bangkok Bank what documents I need to present to them to transfer money out of Thailand. They need to see:

1. copies of the Foreign Exchange Transaction Certificates showing the money brought in to cover the original cost.

2. Copy of the transaction document issued by Land Office showing the transaction of your sale of condo

3. Copy of the chanote title deed, both front and back showing your ownership and the new owner's ownership

4. blue slip showing the amount of tax and fees paid with the declared value of your sale

5. passport or other identity document; your Bangkok Bank passport or account details

6. the export funds application form filled out

Amount you can export is the full amount of the declared value of your sale. BBL said that you would get a more favourable exchange rate if you converted baht into the foreign currency before export, rather than exporting baht and converting in your destination country. This applies to the major currencies.

That's it. Unquote

A number of posts have said here that what the seller paid for his property is irrelevant; the only relevant thing is whether your purchase price makes the property worth it to you. In another thread about under declaring the transaction value to the Land Dept on transferring ownership, quiksilva advises buyers to make sure that an agent or middleman has not put himself into the middle of this transaction, thereby sharing part of the proceeds with the seller. In other words, there's really two transactions, seller sells to agent/middleman (unknown to you) and agent/middleman sells to you. Good advice in Thailand.

In this case, you as buyer may well want to be aware of this double transaction, and of course, you would want to know what the agent/middleman (selling to you) paid for his property, even if the ultimate purchase price is worth it to you. No one wants to be cheated in this way.

By extension, I think knowing what the real seller paid for the property especially if the seller has held the property only a short period of time and it's a volatile market, is a valuable piece of information that would help you in the negotiating process.

Here is my take on this delicate situation. I had just sold a condo unit and had an agent help me do the transfer of ownership to the buyer. The Land Dept office has its own estimated value for the property; let's say it's baht 50,000 per sq meter. Let's also say the actual selling price is baht 70,000 per sq meter, and your sales and purchase agreement reflects this value.

When it's time to declare what is the transaction value to the Land Dept, what do you do? If you declare baht 55,000 per sq meter, the Land Dept official doing the transfer usually will accept that declared value, but, if that official is having a bad day or you have done something to displease him/her, he may ask to see some documentary proof of that declared value as the transaction value. If you declare the actual sales price of baht 70,000/sqm, then you are on safe ground even if he asks for some proof, and the tax/fees are calculated on the actual sales price.

The problem comes when the new buyer sells the property a year or later and goes to do the transfer at that time. The declared transaction price is on record at the Land Dept office, either baht 55,000 or 70,000, and the issue for the then seller (ie your buyer) is what he should declare. If you had declared 70,000, the seller in the future might find it difficult to declare under 70,000, which by that time, the higher taxes/fees are back in force, and this will cause the then seller some consternation.

This is the crux of the problem showing the difference in thinking between Thais wishing to save on taxes/fees, and the Western desire to reflect the truth, which unknowingly may cause difficulty to a Thai person in the future wishing to avoid paying some tax/fees.

To Crash999, I got your PM, but my reply was not able to send to Crash999 which the forum said was not in their database of names.

You can email me direct at pcmar at netvigator dot com or call me in HK on 90939911.

tangoll

I have lived in Manhattan, suburbs of New York City, Tokyo, and several places around Hong Kong. Here are the reasons why I find Bangkok a great place to live. I have purchased two condo units near BTS Ratchethewi station:

1. Both condo buildings are brand new just constructed and the construction materials and equipment rival, not the top tier buildings in Hong Kong but the next level down. Elevators are Otis, toilet fixtures are Cotto, and the lobby is all marble, has wi-fi for free, an ATM machine, a distilled water dispenser at nominal cost, 24 hour front desk and security staff. There must be close to 50 management office, security, front desk, and cleaning staff for this project of 580 units. If anything is a problem in your unit, some engineering/technical will be there no more than one hour after you call the management office and the problem, unless very major, will fixed within a few hours. Try getting that kind of service in NYC, Tokyo, or Hong Kong now. I am not in Bangkok all the time, so the manager of the management office (called juristic person) takes care of paying my electricity bill when it comes. Can you imagine the reaction you would get if you asked a New Yorker building staff to do that for you?

2. My unit is 81 sq metres, and inside, including the balcony, if you measure it, you will get 81 sq metres. In Hong Kong, you will pay 4 - 5 times the price of Bangkok, and if you buy an 81 sq metre unit, inside your unit is only about 60 metres. The other 21 metres is your computed portion of the lobby, elevators, swimming pool, fitness and what not.

3. I had a very bad cough/sore throat/colds problem, and the best doctors in Hong Kong and New York City (Columbia Presbyterian Hospital) couldn't figure out why I had this hacking cough which just wouldn't go away. I went to Bumrungrad, saw their ENT and respiratory doctors (Drs. Khemchart and Wuthichai) and within one year, I have been completely cured of the cough, take some medicines to keep an asthma problem at bay, and everyone says they have never seen a person my age so healthy and fit looking.

4. I am a member of one of the best clubs in Hong Kong, which if you are lucky to find an eligible person to nominate you, your cost of joining is US$35,000 with monthly fee of US$200. In Bangkok, I joined a smaller club on a non-resident basis for under US$1,000 with monthly fee of US$20, and this club has 4 tennis courts, 2 restaurants, big pool, fitness, etc -- everything one needs in a club, but on a smaller basis.

5. I cannot remember ever making a reservation to go out to eat a restaurant in Bangkok, even some of the best restaurants. Try doing that in NYC -- just showing up any restaurant and expecting to get a table.

I guess these are some of the reasons why I find Bangkok such an appealing place to live.

If you are a foreigner buying Thai property, getting it financed by a local owner might not be doable, because to purchase and transfer the property into your name, you need to show the Land Office the Foreign Exchange Transaction certificates showing that you imported foreign funds into Thailand of sufficient amount to cover the full price of your purchase.

I just sold a condo and asked at Bangkok Bank what documents I need to present to them to transfer money out of Thailand. They need to see:

1. copies of the Foreign Exchange Transaction Certificates showing the money brought in to cover the original cost.

2. Copy of the transaction document issued by Land Office showing the transaction of your sale of condo

3. Copy of the chanote title deed, both front and back showing your ownership and the new owner's ownership

4. blue slip showing the amount of tax and fees paid with the declared value of your sale

5. passport or other identity document; your Bangkok Bank passport or account details

6. the export funds application form filled out

Amount you can export is the full amount of the declared value of your sale. BBL said that you would get a more favourable exchange rate if you converted baht into the foreign currency before export, rather than exporting baht and converting in your destination country. This applies to the major currencies.

That's it.

Hi, I just completed transfer of ownership on my condo held less than one year, declaring a sales price of baht. 7.25 million. Total taxes and fess computed by land office and paid by me was baht 45,362. This included revenue tax, specific business tax, stamp duty and transfer fee.

Hope this is of help to anyone buying or selling a condo.

The info I get squares with what MrIrrisistable said. I asked the condo management office what happens if I lose my chanote title deed. Their nonchalant response was, "No problem. You can get a new one, very easy."

So I guess the key for ownership proof is not the actual possession of the chanote, but the record that's kept in the Land Office.

alyx, the revenue tax is the passi ngung dai. For the calculation of the condo shown in the example, held less than one year, then sold, the revenue tax is calculated as follows:

For property held less than one year, the cost of sales is set at 92%; meaning profit of 8%. 8% * 5.35 million = 428,000 baht

Profit 428,000 divided by one year held = 428,000.

tax on 0 - 100,000 = zero

tax on 100,000 - 500,000 = 10% of 328,000 = 32,800 baht

tax on 500,000 - 1,000,000 = 20% of zero = zero

etc.

Thus, the revenue tax (passi ngung dai) on this transfer of ownership of a condo held less than one year, at the declared value of 63,700 baht * 84 sq. meters is, baht 32,800.

I do not know what the cost of sales % is for a property held over 20 years, but the land department should have a table showing this.

This is my understanding, but you have better get a lawyer to confirm any calculation relevant for your specific case.

For anyone's interest, here is one calculation done for me by an experienced real estate agent on the sale of a condo unit held less than one year, 84 sq meters, using the Land department's estimated price for that unit at baht 63,700 per sq. meter. Total sales value at estimated price, 5.35 million.

Fees payable on transfer of ownership:

Transfer Fee 0.01% baht 535.08

Duty stamp 0.11% 5,885.88

Revenue tax 37,806.40

Total 44,227.36

This total is what the Land department will assess you if buyer and seller declare the sale at the estimated value. If you declare a higher (or actual) amount, the figures will of course be different. Depending on the Land Dept official handling the transaction, they may or may not want to see the actual Sales and Purchase Agreement to see the sales price or they may be satisfied with the declared value of the sale, which probably should be somewhat higher than the estimated value.

I am not a lawyer so my knowledge is based only on what I have read here on this forum as well as other articles written by lawyers and/or accountants on this subject. Because the property in question has been owned by the seller for 23 years, I believe the fee that you are questioning is the income/withholding tax, which is a tax computed based on an assumed cost of the property and based on the number of years held. I think you need a good translation of which fees you are being asked to pay.

The second point is that the specific business tax and the income/withholding tax is assessed on the seller of the property. Who pays for it is often negotiated during the negotiations on the sale of the property and should be noted in the sales and purchase agreement. Why are you being presented with the bills to pay all the taxes and fees? Had you consented to pay all such taxes, including the actual transfer fee?

A lawyer might shed better light on this, but this is my reading on your problem.

I just flew Royal Jordanian HKG/BKK/HKG and I found them not bad. New Airbus 310 planes, Recaro designed seats that are quite comfortable in economy and seat pitch a bit longer than Cathay, Thai or Emirates. Food is basic, but was OK. The FA's are quite new and inexperienced. One had no idea that her airline has a frequent flyer program and didn't know what I was talking about, but another FA fetched me the sign up form. Price for that roundtrip was US$225 all in. And the flight landed safely and departures/arrivals were smack on time.