serpentine

What difference does it make if the back packer spends it over a longer period? The money is still injected into the economy, and with less social damage than Mr Sex Pest.

Sex pests may be undesirables, but let's not kid ourselves. The thousands of ladies who cater for the needs of these pests are an accepted part of thai culture. Do you have any idea how many wealthy asian tourists (who I guess often escape the stigma of been classified as a FARANG)) fly here weekly or monthly to visit the private brothels and bath houses all over Bangkok? Thai style. Because it happens behind closed doors it is not seen, therefore doesn't happen.

Most of these business travellers probably stay 5 star and spend big. Do you think the middle class thai is offended by these business sex tourists? I think a majority of thai men see the services of bar girls as an accepted social interaction. I don't personally agree, but I think letting one bad rat (that American bloke) ruin it for so many who love to travel freely in and out of Thailand regularly is harsh and will be harmful to many facets of the thai economy.

My business is up scale. Beyond the reach of real back packers. That doesn't make me want to see them disappear from Tld. Sure, the average legit BP will keep coming, but the word on the international grape vine will make the country as a whole look less attractive to those who are in no hurry to leave. The visa policy may have a sensible aim, but I think with all the confusion a lot of people will be pissed off.

Let's not judge a bloke for treading carefully with money so he can see the world. Admirable I think. They are not all dirty! ha har.

Thing is the dirtiest scumiest smelliest backpacker is the man who discovered this country as a destination for long term traveling in the late 70's and early 80's and many of them have returned 10 times, bringing their families and now staying in more upmarket resorts etc.

Some of them are 40 years plus and still living like a cheap back packer. Idon't see why the thai government thinks that makes them undesirable.

I have always found travellers (as opposed to the average two week holiday maker) much more sensative to the culture, less likely to get in a fight with locals etc. They spend money over a longer period. Short term holiday makers are often demanding and rude because they have to squash all their yearly fun into ten days.

I don't think Thailand should envoke new visa laws that turn it's back on the sector of travellers that liturally built this countries foreign image, and mostly in a very positive way.

By the way, I am not one of these people. But I sure miss those days.

Good for you. That is how my back packing days began in the late 80's too. However I own business on a very back packer island and the average backpacker nowadays is not the same as before. They buy things (apart from essentials) and are not afraid to blow a few grand (baht) on a night out. They are generally on the road for a lot less time, they don't travel across the globe, but rather perhaps focus on a region and they leave home with more money. Gone are the days of hitting the road with no money. I know a few artists that manage to pull it off. That's about it.

This new backpacker breed has found Thailand very user friendly. it is by far one of the most popular destinations these days. maybe they are not as adventurous as we were but they bring in heaps of foreign currency into Thailand.

Perspective please. The majority of farang visa hoppers are simply enjoying Thailand for all it has to offer for tourists. It is a country built on such tourism........the back packer. just because thousands of tourists take advantage of visa runs doesn't make them "vermin". Many posts are suggesting that if you come overland you are an undesirable. That is so outrageously snobby. Look at this country and the gap between rick Bangkokians and Isan rice farmers. If these new visa rules prevail some foreigners working illegally will be filtered out of the system, but the effects on all the bacpackers, long stayers, investers, retirees and even barflys will leave millions of thais wondering where all the money went. The average cheap backpacker who stays on here for a year spends more in a week than the average thai family makes in a month. Why does Thailand want to make life more difficult for a very small minority who have helped this country shine in the region?

Yes, Tld has been very friendly so far. It was one of the smarter diplomatic moves to encourage people such as yourself to make the move. And a big reason you chose to live here is that your friends and family could come a visit and stay indefinatly, as long as they abide by the laws (ie-have a visa). This policy has prevailed as goverments have fallen because it is good for the economy. The issue now is a very wealthy thai PM is definatly not thinking ahead, because he doesn't care for the potential backlash, that willl effect working class thais. This is an irresponsible policy. If it really is aimed at weeding out scumbags (or simply travellers who don't stay 5 star) he could attempt to fix corruption within the departments involved. Not likely since he has gotton away with taking the piss out of poor thai folk for 2 terms already. He doesn't have a mandate to make such important decisions. We know that many western countries don't allow you to stay more than 90 days, but Thailand has allowed us to because FARANG MEAN MONEY. It is a massive and important part of modern Thailand.

Gun culture is out of control in the southern islands.

Dive tourism depends on foriegners. Any thoughts on how this industry will be affected by the new visa regulations?

We are not all human beer kegs with naked ladies in our goggles.........all the time!

Such sudden policy changes stink of incompetence within the gov. Nationalism rearing it's ugly head in a bad way. Such changes are unlikely to weed out many vermin. More likely to cause confusion at border posts with antiquitated computer systems (Sadao is still operating on something that looks like it crawled out of '81 and it is suppossed to be the most sensative border).

It is a ploy by Taksin to attempt to make everyday thais believe that farang are the reason his promises are not materialising.

He will not be living in Thailand in 2 years to explain to everyone where all the tourists went.

Thailand is known and loved internationally for the ease with which one can come and go without breaking the bank. Most of my friends here are on the road constantly and return many times a year to the islands. There are some working illegally in diving, but they are simply doing what hundreds of thousands of Burmese do here............the jobs that thais will not do. Too many legitimates will be hassled unnecessarly for the sake of a few farang working here illegally. The word will spread and all tourism will suffer.

That's good news for the border runners. I am concerned however for the legitimate businesses owners like myself who have suffered all sorts of confusion at border crossings even with everything in order. Sometimes officials are unable to identfy a NON B visa. I wonder if everything will be clear to everyone working on the borders?

In your eyes only 2 week tourists are "real". It seems that you like Mr Taksin have forgotton that tourism, Thailand's biggest earner of foreign currency, is founded in 20 years of the back packing tourist. Most BPs spend months travelling throughout S E Asia, often returning to Thailand for the longest period of their travels because it WAS a back packer friendly country. Many of these BPs returned after years to make small business because they realised that their time in Thailand was the happiest time in their travels. (I think this group number tens of thousands in this country). The effect they have had in tourist circles has been positive. I am sure the majority would be happy to aquire the appropriate work permits if it was possible. Their thai partners usually explain to them that that's not how it works in Thailand. Everything is done with back handers. The Immigration dept can and has the right to pass any laws they want with regard to these long stayers............but when the thai people wonder in a few years where all the nice tourists have gone I can guarantee Taksin will not even be living in this country to explain it to them. Thailand depends on tourism, long term or 2 weekers, and needs to consider this before too many people get pissed off and the word spreads..........

Yes you are right. The bigger issue is Taksin using nationalism to try to distract thais from the fact that he is destroying and cheating the country. This visa issue is insignifigant compared to bigger issues, although this kind of nationalism of "foreigners out!" (unless they are rich) is indicitive of more turmoil to follow.

This all started when Taksin decided that backpackers are undesirable tourists. He wanted to close down the full Moon party on Phangan. He fails to see that the backpackers are the 5 star tourists eventually. I guess Immigration figure that anyone without a corporate visa working for a big multi national or an international school in an undesirable. Unfortunate because backpackers are more culturally sensative and polite. They spend the same money as a two weeker holiday maker but over a longer period. many of these border visa runners are backpackers who have saved to spend a year on the road in S E Asia. I guess the surrounding back packer friendly countries will benifit.

Funny. Everyone I know chooses a venue to go out to at night which they enjoy. And many people return to small tourists spots (like Koh Tao, pai, Vang Vieng etc) purely for the discerning mix of venues.

Let's don't get off the point. Are you saying that Thailand will be a better destination without the foreign influence in hospitality, botique resorts, diving etc?

I am confused. Are you a tourist? Where I live the combination of excellent bars, restaurants and parties is purely the reason people return. Half the visitors to this island return yearly simply because they love the quality selection of nightlife.

Why would a tourist return to a place where all the bars and restaurants were crap? Or return to an island where the diving was crap and all the fish were dead? Point been it IS the small touches like quality businesses that cause tourists to return. On the islands the foreign influence has been essential in pushing the bar higher to create a very competitive and quality hospitality industry.

Next time I take a holiday I am going to choose a destination with the worst bars and restaurants I have ever found in the whole world. Cause that makes sense doesn't it.

Thaivisa.com is where we ask questions and try to get the lowdown on what the expats living here are thinking. Would love to "walk the walk". Difficult when I don't read the language, although can speak and understand it. I have a low IQ and probably should have embraced written thai in my 8 years here but not likely. I am sure you have dealt with Immigration. They are rarely helpful at the best of times. I am just thinking this whole thing will backfire as tourists get stranded in Burma etc. It may filter out some vermin, but it is more likely to effect decent long stayers that do stay here long term because it is not too difficult.

Which thai forums do you suggest I look at?

Bars, restaurants and diving are negligble to the thai economy as a whole, however the development of these two industries in southern islands and the foreign input has been essential in tourism. The Gulf islands have come a long way. Many of the tourists here came originally as backpackers in the early 90's. They no longer wan't to drink from buckets, or stay in grass huts. They love Thailand because they can come and go and it is great value for money. Every foreigner I know with a bar, restaurant or dive school directly causes 10-100 tourist to come and spend a month in Thailand every year. If these business owners are treated badly by Immigration officials, which is bound to happen, even if all the paper work is in order, Thailand will lose the trust of small business owners and all these potential repeat tourists.

People working illegally in these industries are been targeted.......apparently. Obviously working without a permit here is the same as working without a permit in any other country, and if you are caught you will suffer the consequences. I hope the thai immigration and policy makers realise the economy generated from these industries. A lot of foreigners in these industries are helping create jobs in the tourist sector, and involved in teaching locals how to manage businesses that generate on going jobs and income. I am not talking about the "undesirables". I own bars in the south and in the last 10 years can count at least 10 staff who were unemployed, and after experience and training in this industry, have their own bars and restaurants now. most foreigners working here (even without permits) are helping Thailand become a more cosmopolitan destination. Those "vermin" involved in undesirable business are usually in cohouts with local authority figures. Perhaps Thailand has greater issues to deal with rather than making it more difficult for tourists with time and money to come and go as they please. Any thoughts?

What, are you this guys' buddy? He murders this chick who is half his age and you think he should get just a couple of years in jail? Thanks for your opinion.