tim77

I saw this one coming a long way off... and it's only a matter of time before all Thai consulates and embassies have similar rules. That's why I'm headed to live in The Philippines at the end of this month: Up to 16 months on a single tourist visa without having to leave the country.

I'll be waiting for the rest of you to show up.

Hi,I see you there,leaving 11feb after 6 years in Thailand I had enough of bullshit from the goverment,totaly brainless,so see you in Philippines(puerto galera,sabang)

After about 12 years in Thailand, mostly on business visa, I too made the move to the Philippines - also to Puerto Galera, Sabang. I simply do not want to live in a country with (i) unstable rules and/or unstable interpretations of rules dealing with foreign ownership of a residence, (ii) constant threats against foreign control of companies that have been totally capitalized by non-Thais, (iii) one-day advance notice of adverse visa change rules; and the list goes on.

She doesn't require a visa, she will get 30 days exempt stamp on arrival. Requirements are proof of onward travel within those 30 days and 10.000 baht per person, or 20.000 per family.

I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but my Filipino GF has never (6 entries) been asked to show proof of funds upon entry at Suvarnabhumi Airport.

My wife is a Filipina, and has made frequent trips to Thailand both traveling with me and traveling on her own.

At Thai immigration, you should be prepared to show an onward ticket and THB 10,000. As a practical matter, at Thai immigration she has never been asked to either show the onward ticket or the THB 10,000.

CAUTION - - - It is in the Philippines that you will have the biggest problem. Before a Philippine citizen is allowed to board a plane he or she will have to (1) pay a travel tax of Peso 1,600; (2) show a return ticket with a confirmed seat to return to the Philippines; and (3) show money of either THB 10,000 or USD 200.

CAUTION - - - Be very careful if the flight back is on a different airline than the departing airline. Over a five year period my wife was on two separate occasions not permitted to board a plane to leave the Philippines: (1) once, she had a paper ticket to return but the return date on the ticket was a week or so prior to the departure, and even though all agreed that all she had to do was to book a seat for the return flight this was not sufficient; and (2) once she was departing on Philippine airline, but the return was an e-ticket on Air Asia, and we did not get a letter from Air Asia confirming the e-ticket was valid.

This one cost me Bht 800,000.00 seven years ago. Given the price increases since, it would probably cost about Bht 1,100,000.00 at the present time.

http://gallery.thaivista.net/thumbnails.php?album=15

Thank you for the photos. We will be building soon, and if you don't mind I will show the contractor the photos as part of the specifications.

We have used them in the bathroom and the kitchen (water unit for each room) for years without a problem.

We use what is called a "multi-point". A "multi-point" heater permits a flow of hot water to both the shower and the sink. A separate cold water line also must be used an connected to the shower and the sink.

We paid around THB 5,000 for each unit.

As one of the other posters noted, you need to be careful if your water pressure is low. If the water pressure is low, the water heater will not come on.

The risk of ownership of property varies with (1) the type of title; and (2) the method of ownership.

Fortunately, sound title is available in Thailand. The best title dead is a Chanod, and it is excellent. Lower ranking title documents are available, but the risk increases.

Fundamentally, non-Thais may not own real property (lot, house and lot, condominium unit) in Thailand except in a few limited circumstances. For most people (certain investments to the contrary) these circumstances are:

(1) Owning a condominium unit that is permitted to be owned in a foreign name (the so called, 49% condominium unit) is safe. Such a unit is freely transferable.

(2) Owning real property (e.g., lot, house and lot, a non-49% condominium unit) under a 30 year (or shorter lease) lease is also quite safe. Some argue that options to extend even a 30 year lease are possible, but this seems both risky and problematic. There may be some difficult in assigning (or sub-leasing) the lease, and the lessor will have a tax liability. Please note - a lease from a wife can be canceled by her.

(3) Owning real property (e.g., lot, house and lot, a non-49% condominium unit) by way of a usufruct is also quite safe. Please note - a usufruct from a wife can be canceled by her.

(4) Owning real property (e.g., lot, house and lot, or even a non-49% condominium unit) using the company scheme is presently risky and may not be suitable. As background, for many years foreigners became shareholders in a Thai company, with a mixed shareholding of Thais and non-Thais. This mixed shareholding would attempt to be structured so as to permit the company to own real property. The company scheme requires some annual expenses in maintaining the company and in dealing with some tax income issues. Recently the company scheme has come under scrutiny by the Thai government, and thus may be a very risky and unsuitable way to own real property.

There is a lot of excellent information is this forum, and it should be consulted. A reputable lawyer should, of course, be consulted.

Everything is status quo as before Sept 1st 2007 at Bangkok Immigration. The higherups had a meeting yesterday and as no new Police Order has been issued in the Royal Gazette, they'll abide with the National Police Order 606 starting as of today.

Good news for the extension of stay dependents based on retirement as of today. Possibly bad news for parents under 50 years old, because everything is the same until a new police Order comes out( if it ever will ) As of today the window is back open for applicants of dependents and Bkk Immigration is going to follow Police Order 606 even if it is in conflict with the Immigration Act and Ministerial Regulations.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

It is kind of the Officials at Immigration to understand the problem and to permit families to stay together. Hopefully, this spirit will continue and will become codified so as to prevent misunderstanding in the future.

And my thanks to Sunbelt for relaying information to this forum.

Because the dependent based on retirement, in their opinion is against the Immigration Act and Ministerial Regulations ( which is superior to the National Police Oder 606). Bkk Immigration feels any permit granted before by them should never have been approved and the Police Order was wrong in allowing it. Immigration cannot allow someone to get a extension even if they have been granted one before as a dependent, as the superior law states they must not allow it. Immigration is not changing the law when they denied someone the permit, in their opinion, they now are just using the correct interpretation of the Immigration Act and Ministerial Regulations and ignoring in this case the National Police Order in regards to dependents based on retirement.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

But . . . unless I am reading the Ministerial Regulation incorrectly . . . the use of dependent visa based on retirement is not prohibited by the Ministerial Regulation . . .it is simply not addressed.

And yes . . . I do notice that you correctly and diplomatically used the phrase "in their opinion" twice.

Funny times in Thailand.

So, we still have a pending question to fully understand what is going on : extensions of visa were granted with what regulation during the period 2002 (date of the Ministry regulation) and october 2006 (date of the wrong Police Order) ?

What permitted dependent extensions for retirement visas before Oct 2006 (date of the wrong Police Order)? Was it the then prevailing interpretation of the regulation? If so, are there to be more interpretations, clarifications, etc?

Gentlemen, do you really expect that anybody can or will answer these questions?

You are absolutely correct. There is no one who can or will answer these questions. Worse, I tend to think that there is no one who knows the answers.

Utterly bizarre. . . .

So, we still have a pending question to fully understand what is going on : extensions of visa were granted with what regulation during the period 2002 (date of the Ministry regulation) and october 2006 (date of the wrong Police Order) ?

Or I can reformulate : did the Police Order of 2006 change really something to the extension of visa process ?

I think your question is excellent.

What permitted dependent extensions for retirement visas before Oct 2006 (date of the wrong Police Order)? Was it the then prevailing interpretation of the regulation? If so, are there to be more interpretations, clarifications, etc?

Will it ever end?

For at least 15 years, foreign citizens came to Thailand and were permitted – by Thai authorities and institutions – to openly use the Company scheme to buy houses and to officially record their ownership interest. Starting about a year ago, Thai authorities started to take the position that such buying and ownership violates the clear words of Thai law.

For over 15 years (probably longer) most foreigners could renew their permission to remain in Thailand, by simply crossing the boarder and renewing their permission. Starting a year ago, such renewing was categorized as “tiptoeing around the law”, and has been restricted.

For years, dependents (wives, children, parents) of retired people were permitted by Thai authorities to stay in Thailand as dependents. Now, a regulation issued some four years ago is being read in a manner so as to prohibit such wives, children and parents from staying in Thailand as dependents.

In each case, a long permitted activity is being found to be contrary to a long existing, but not strictly enforced or not correctly understood Thai law. In many situations, foreign citizens have relied on continuing and consistent application of Thai law as it was presented by Thai authorities. Their reliance may now put many of them in economic peril and genuine human hardship.

Thailand – as a nation State – is entitled to laws of its choosing. Thailand is not permitted to selective enforce or selectively reread its own laws in a manner that violates human decency or that acts as a confiscation of property.

How many more surprise laws are out there?

A few years ago, some Scottish friends (husband and wife) were visiting, and we were discussing the transportation needs of the wife who needed to get to the airport.

So as an American, I used the expression: "I'll drive by in the morning and give you a ride". (Turns out that in Scotland, "giving a ride" is an idiomatic expression meaning to have sex.) The Scottish expression is to "give a lift".

Wow, you moved 8 months ago and you still monitor Thai Visa. Thailand is a compelling place indeed!

I still have a property to sell. And, I have many close friends in Thailand, as well as other friends who have thought about moving to Thailand.

All this indecision about our lives does not suit my wife and I we have talked at lengh over the last few days and we are not going to be held hostge to this possible decision one way or anouther or future changes, we will not have our lives decided in this arbitrary fashon so we have decided to move on to a place with a more reasoned attitude to immigration.

My wife and I came to the same decision about eight months ago, and we have relocated to another country in Asia.

For us, it was a number of factors: (i) the constant uncertainty of what the visa policy was and what it might change into; (ii) the bizarre rush to change visa requirements without notice, without clear interpretations, and even without immigration officials knowing what the change was or how to implement it; (iii) the scary comments comments coming out of Thai Embassies, e.g., "farang you stay Thailand too long"; (iv) the backlash against the long permitted company scheme of using a company to own a home; (v) etc.

It does not take long for a serious thread regarding serious matters to be hijacked by the ."If you dont like it P*#* Off somewhere else" mob. The " Ive got squillions so I dont care" gang also jump on the bandwaggon along with the would-be maths masters and various others who delight in blowing their own trumpet.

Fact is ,there are fellow ex-pats out there that this regulation does seriously affect and they have my heart-felt sympathy.

Picture the retiree who moves to Thailand with his under 50 non-Thai spouse and his little nest egg + monthly pension,buys a house or condo , car etc and settles down to a blissful retirement ,out of the blue he has to come up with another 800k or another 65k per month to retain their status quo, what a bummer!!!

Perhaps the next target on the Immigration shooting gallery will have "holier than Thou" pinned to its chest, as for me, I have my Cambodia business visa in my passport because I have a gut feeling my time in Los is nearing an end, ah well, never to late in life for a new adventure.

. . . and the house that they bought - relying on the company scheme that was sanctioned or permitted for years by the Land Department, the Company registration officials, the Thai tax department, Thai lawyers, etc - may no longer be theirs. . . . Even the economic value of their good faith investment may turn - if they are lucky - into an unmarketable investment.

I am still shocked at the callous and the cruel actions being generated by the Thai government.

ONE QUESTION? Sunbelt really dropped the ball after making their OP.

Why didnt Sunbelt send a lawyer to the Immigration office today and get a complete explanation of the NEW RULES? Since they reprted this was in effect as of Sept. 1,2007...wouldnt the officer in charge have all the details...even if the law hasnt been published in the Gazette? Just my opinion...I hope I dont get booted off the TV forum for being honest. ???

I think that lawyers from Sunbelt are at immigration on a regular basis. And, I am sure that Sunbelt understands how important this information is to members of this forum and that Sunbelt will share information as and when they can.

I suspect that Sunbelt also took some risk in disclosing this information to us before it was officially released and I think we should be grateful to them for their assistance.

LA may not have 250,000 Thais . . . From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thai Town is a neighborhood of Los Angeles centered along Hollywood Boulevard between Normandie Avenue and Western Avenue in Hollywood. The neighborhood was designated by the City Council in 2000. It is currently about 1 mile long and growing. The area contains many Thai restaurants and shops. There are also many Armenians living in the area, which is accordingly also referred to as Little Armenia. The boundaries between Thai Town and Little Armenia are ambiguous and fluid. The area is served by the Metro Red Line at the Hollywood/Western station.

Los Angeles has the largest Thai population outside of Thailand. Roughly 80,000 of California's estimated 120,000 Thai Americans live in Los Angeles.[1] It is also home to the world's first and only Thai Town. In 2002 there was an estimated 80,000 Thai immigrants living in Los Angeles. Thai Chinese are also included in the population. Because of this, Los Angeles is sometimes referred to as Thailand's 77th province. Both Bangkok (Thailand's capital) and Los Angeles are known as the City of Angels.

In mid-April, Thai Town celebrates Songkran, the Thai New Year, by closing off Hollywood Boulevard within its boundaries, and setting up food stands and entertainment in the street.

At least for us Americans, our elected officials have literally hundreds of issues to consider, and the folks who answer the phones or open the emails and snail mails have a short list of less than 50 issues to enter and tally the concerns. Trust me, the travails of expatriate nationals having visa problems with a far-flung kingdom are not on their list. If you contribute over $50,000 to that politician's campaign fund, or employ several thousand people in his district, he'll hear you out. And then he'll say, "Excuse me? Thailand? Retirees? Can they even vote?"

Tomorrow and this coming week may see that the new immigration policy is not even gazzetted, or is rescinded shortly after it is announced, or it's simply never implemented. Mai bpen rai. What matters to me is that it woke me up to read the date on my passport, and alerted me that I have no permanency here. I'm honest enough to say "Shit, I never should have moved here; it's not too late to go back, at least one country from home."

I have had a different experience with politicians. In the US I have worked with politicians in the course of being elected as representative of a professional group. The group had never been politically active before my election. We made the rounds and eventually found those who would listen. Ulitmately a piece of national legislation changed. Our small group educated other like groups with better access and influence. They in turn carried the fight to it's conclusion. We were opposed by powerful big business interests yet we prevailed. In another instance many years later I was involved with a group of immigrants connected with a business in the US. This time these people could not vote. Again, I followed the same procedure. We made beaucoup faxes requesting an audience. In the end we traveled to Washington and met with several members of Congress who wanted to hear what we had to say. While is greatly helps to have $50,000 to dontate, there are members of congress who will want to hear what is said and will work to help. It takes effort to find them though. Unfortunately, most people won't make the effort or quit after only a few attempts. If I end up bailing here, I will be making the rounds in Washington with politicians and with like minded groups again, educating them about what is going on here. As it is, I will be snail mailing letters. Emails from people with addresses not in the congressman's district are automatically dumped by the system. Faxes and snail mail aren't. And believe it or not, a few are concerned with the plight of Americans living abroad. With the 2006 change in Congress that number likely mulitplied.

I wonder if groups like AARP might be able to supply some contact details of persons who might be interested. I will be following up with them. It has been my understanding for some time that they are a superb lobbying organization.

Below is a copy of my email and letter which I have sent to the U.S. Embassy. You may wish to send a similar or an alternative communication to your Embassy.

Non-Thais are being advised of yet another capricious action against them by the Thai government. I understand that Royal Police Office Order 606/2006 will significantly and adversely affect Americans who have entered Thailand under Thailand's long standing Retirement Visa program. Details of this Police Order are set out in the following web site: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=140252.

May I add my voice to the cry for the following: (i) warnings to be posted on the U.S. Embassy website; (ii) a U.S. Embassy inquiry and protest, as appropriate; and, (iii) economic and status sanctions against Thailand.

Hi Tim,

You might want to examine the original post a little more closely, and slightly revise your letter.

The police order referred to is the OLD regulation, which spelled out the conditions under which wives of retirees were granted dependent status for purposes of extension of stay. The new police order, which we are all so concerned about, has NOT been published yet, and therefore has no number. It might do well to wait until something IS published to take the next step.

I believe this is why we haven't seen anything in the mainstream media yet: it is unofficial, and cannot be independently verified. Sunbelt apparently has some inside info, to which the media are not privy.

Sateev

Yes . . . you are correct. I refered to the 2006 order and not to the expected 1 Sep 07 order.

Below is a copy of my email and letter which I have sent to the U.S. Embassy. You may wish to send a similar or an alternative communication to your Embassy.

Non-Thais are being advised of yet another capricious action against them by the Thai government. I understand that Royal Police Office Order 606/2006 will significantly and adversely affect Americans who have entered Thailand under Thailand's long standing Retirement Visa program. Details of this Police Order are set out in the following web site: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=140252.

May I add my voice to the cry for the following: (i) warnings to be posted on the U.S. Embassy website; (ii) a US Embassy inquiry and protest, as appropriate; and (iii) economic sanctions against Thailand.

Don't waste your effort writing to the Embassy. Like most Americans you don't count there as long as GWB is calling the shots. Writing to the following senators and representatives might get more accomplished. Two are democrats, one is a Republican.

The Honorable Mark Kirk

1030 Longworth HOB

Washington, D.C. 20515

Fax: 202-225-0837

U.S. Senator Sherrod Brown

455 Russell Senate Office Bldg.

Washington, DC 20510

Fax +1-202-228-6321

U.S. Senator Byron Dorgan

322 Hart Senate Office Building

Washington, DC 20510

Fax: 202-224-1193

Thank you for the suggestions and the addresses. May I ask other forum member to also post address where our communications can be sent.

Below is a copy of my email and letter which I have sent to the U.S. Embassy. You may wish to send a similar or an alternative communication to your Embassy.

Non-Thais are being advised of yet another capricious action against them by the Thai government. I understand that Royal Police Office Order 606/2006 will significantly and adversely affect Americans who have entered Thailand under Thailand's long standing Retirement Visa program. Details of this Police Order are set out in the following web site: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=140252.

May I add my voice to the cry for the following: (i) warnings to be posted on the U.S. Embassy website; (ii) a U.S. Embassy inquiry and protest, as appropriate; and, (iii) economic and status sanctions against Thailand.

These foreign retirees that are here take nothing and spend, spend, spend and now the government is telling them to go spend somewhere else???

It is my understanding that Thailand NEEDS dollars brought into the country and now they forcing people to take their dollars and go away????

My function here is to bring dollars into the country and hurry and spend them so I can bring more in.

So, you finally see the light ? The ONLY reason farangs are tolerated in Thailand is for their function of milk cows. Not sufficient milk, and then .. go to the butcher.

Did you ever had the idea you as PERSON was welcome in TH ? Or have any legal rights ?

No, your WALLET is welcome. And to get the most out of that Thailand is willing to change any law overnight, forcing you to leave all you build up and paid for in TH behind.

Sorry, for me no secure base to convince me to come to Thailand. Better be "old cow" in Netherlands / E.U..

Yea . . . we are food . .

Land of Sorrow !!!!!!!!!

or, perhaps TIT . . .(which in the past was basically a good natured jest) . . . now seems to mean "Tricked in Thailand".

while it surely impacts all spouses (and kids) w/o income it is aimed at the wifey from phils or cambo. -which makes it as much or more xenophobic... if youre going to marry from the third world and want to live in thailand, we insist you will marry a thai.

How do you figure this dependency change is "aimed" at wives from the Philippines and Cambodia?

and this message of hate is not coming from the Thai people in general . . . it is coming from the Thai elite . . .

I don't share this view promoted by so many here.

Do you guys really believe that the general Thai public would look favorably at a relaxation of visa, work and immigration laws for the farangs?

Thai politicians seen to have a tough stance against foreigners APPEAL the electorate, NOT put them off...

How many Thais do you guys know who think it's unfair and unjust that Thais in farangland can own land and houses, work any job and easily get PR and citizenship when farangs can't do the same in their THAIland?

Trust me (and think about it a bit) . . .

It is not the rice farmer . . . or the shop owner . . . or the truck driver . . . or the office worker . . . who has the power to issue visa changes , make changes to the FBA, etc. . .

It is the rice farmer, the shop owner, the truck driver, the office worker who are being pander to.

The moral of the story? Never trust any government...especially this one.

We agree, farang prince. And both of us are retired military and retired civil servants!!

One more brick in the wall on which is scrawled in big, red capital letters:

FARANG GO HOME!!

and this message of hate is not coming from the Thai people in general . . . it is coming from the Thai elite . . .