tim77

This kind of thing has become predictable. The writing is on the wall in big uppercase red letters now. These changes come without proper warning, and now without humane grandfathering. The message again if you haven't already got it is: do not feel too comfortable, do not feel too welcome, do not think that you won't be next. This is nothing new at all to those of us who have been paying attention rather than making up excuses as to why the latest class of people to be kicked out are undesirable scum.

That said, I can't really assert that Thailand doesn't have to right to require both non-Thai spouses to qualify separately. I think some other countries already do that for their retirement programs. Heck, they don't need to offer a retirement visa program at all, most countries in the world do not. I can and do fault the short warning and lack of grandfathering. That is simply inhumane.

As far as the map is concerned, that is relatively trivial.

Sadly you are very correct about the "writing on the wall". This is a racial backlash against foreigners.

In your second paragraph in which you discuss Thailand's "right to require. . .", may I just note that in my mind there is a big difference in Thailand having the "power" and Thailand having the "right". I can not dispute that Thailand has the "power" to change its visa rules in whatever capricious way Thailand wants . . .but Thailand has no "right" to do so.

Sunbelt – it would be appreciated if you could give your idea about the direct or indirect reasons behind these changes. I assume there is a specific group of people Immigration want to target.

I was thinking that too. Does anyone know what the thinking behind this madness might be? Why are they targeting the dependants?

The target is "all foreigners".

Over the last ten years I've noticed that every time farangs get worked up over a perceived change in any aspect of life here in Thailand, there is a "henny penny the sky is falling mentality" and a rush to predict a mass exodus, forced or voluntary, from Thailand. Life goes on, and more and more farang keep coming. I really don't see anything but more farang in our future here. My advice is to be patient and pleasant and enjoy some aspect of nature and fellow man and watch how things just sort of resolve themselves.

Bravo!!!

I am very familiar with Thailand. What are these changes over the last ten years that you are so familiar with. Nothing like the present changes to visas, companies, or home ownership has ever occurred. Please be so kind as to present your list of "perceived changes".

I am in no way adversely affected by any of the Thai actions over the last year. I am deeply saddened by the harm being dealt out to my countrymen and to other foreign citizens.

I live in another Asian country and for the past year have been buying Thai goods and exporting them for resale. For the past several weeks we have been working on a purchase of Thai goods. This purchase was to close today. In support of my countrymen, I will cancel this purchase and will boycott Thailand as a prospective source of future goods.

I am amazed at all of this. This ruling dismisses any possibility whatsoever the notion that Thai's are firm believers in the family unit and reinforces without question the idea that foreigners are wanted only for their money. Shame on you Thailand. And no, it doesn't effect me personally.

I endorse your comment wholeheartedly. This is a shameful day for Thailand.

Entice people under one set of rules - rules for visa, home ownership, ability to own shares in a company, etc. - and then after human beings have committed and altered their status . . . . change the rules again. For shame.

I will be writing to my Embassy and will be asking for an official protest and for trade sanctions.

From CNN Sunday (26 Aug 07)

HARARE, Zimbabwe (Reuters) -- Zimbabwe's government introduced a bill Thursday to give Zimbabweans majority ownership of foreign companies, a move critics say will deepen the economic crisis.

Critics of the Zimbabwe government fear a bill against foreign companies will worsen the economic crisis.

If passed it would give the government sweeping powers over how foreign companies, including mines, operate in Zimbabwe.

Critics accuse veteran leader President Robert Mugabe of trying to push through the empowerment bill to extend his patronage and focus attention from Zimbabwe's economic turmoil. Mugabe is seeking another five-year term in presidential elections next year.

Indigenisation and Empowerment Minister Paul Mangwana told parliament the bill would create an environment that would increase the "participation of indigenous people in Zimbabwe".

The draft was passed to a parliamentary legal committee shortly after it was introduced. It is likely to pass because Mugabe's ZANU-PF party dominates parliament, analysts say.

Critics say it is reminiscent of Mugabe's controversial policy of seizing white-owned farms to give to landless blacks, which many say triggered the economic crisis.

Empowerment of Zimbabwean companies could drain what little confidence there is left in the country and step up pressure on Mugabe to show he is in control, analysts say.

"There was no doubt they would push it through before the elections because it's designed to garner votes," said economic commentator Eric Bloch.

"What remains to be seen is how vigorously they are going to implement it, but it's certainly going to discourage investors."

From CNN news Sunday (26 Aug 07) . . .

HARARE, Zimbabwe (Reuters) -- Zimbabwe's government introduced a bill Thursday to give Zimbabweans majority ownership of foreign companies, a move critics say will deepen the economic crisis.

Critics of the Zimbabwe government fear a bill against foreign companies will worsen the economic crisis.

If passed it would give the government sweeping powers over how foreign companies, including mines, operate in Zimbabwe.

Critics accuse veteran leader President Robert Mugabe of trying to push through the empowerment bill to extend his patronage and focus attention from Zimbabwe's economic turmoil. Mugabe is seeking another five-year term in presidential elections next year.

Indigenisation and Empowerment Minister Paul Mangwana told parliament the bill would create an environment that would increase the "participation of indigenous people in Zimbabwe".

The draft was passed to a parliamentary legal committee shortly after it was introduced. It is likely to pass because Mugabe's ZANU-PF party dominates parliament, analysts say.

Critics say it is reminiscent of Mugabe's controversial policy of seizing white-owned farms to give to landless blacks, which many say triggered the economic crisis.

Empowerment of Zimbabwean companies could drain what little confidence there is left in the country and step up pressure on Mugabe to show he is in control, analysts say.

"There was no doubt they would push it through before the elections because it's designed to garner votes," said economic commentator Eric Bloch.

"What remains to be seen is how vigorously they are going to implement it, but it's certainly going to discourage investors."

I wonder what will happen to the money taken (30% of investment over $20K) by the Bank of Thailand???

anybody knowledgeable about this? we have a fair amount stuck there for another 9 months with no interest...

oz

This is wreaking havok with my business also. Every time a payment is sent to my customer they freeze 30% and it has affected his cash flow which has affected my cash flow. he manages to get it released after a couple of months every time but it is getting ridiculous to have the money held until you can prove it is for purchase of export products every single payment.

The article mentions that it is okay to limit equity, voters rights and members of the board since there are other ways to control the company. My guess is that after every other way becomes known then these "elite" will pass amendments to close those also.

It seems clear that foreigners will be unable to control a business in Thailand. Paraphrasing what one of the NLA said yesterday, they dont want Thais to be employees in their own country. This seems clear enough.

I suspect that as a part of their increasingly inward-looking approach, what is happening is that the ruling elite is creating the circs for a massive business fire sale, following which they will be able to pick up some bargains.

We should all remember that Thailand has a rich history of manipulating the national economy for the benefit of the few at the top. It happened last year with the stock market and that idiot Pridyathorn; a lot of his mates are rumoured to have had advance knowledge and made a killing. I believe we are looking down the barrel of a huge purge of foreign business. Call me paranoid but this is increasingly unsettling.

Interestingly, the Democrats appear to be the ones with reason insofar as the FBA is concerned. Time will tell...

Rich

Rich . . . I agree with you. The great gift of the Romans - the "Rule of Law" - is under serious threat in Thailand. Manipulation is a dangerous game.

Last year and this year the Rule of Law for Visas (short stay, retirement, investment) were changed and re-interpreted, and so rapidly that even the Imagration Department had no clear idea what the change was.

The long established Rule of Law dealing with land ownership by Companies with either 50% Thai shareholding, or the 60%+ tacitly permitted by the Land Department is clearly under threat.

Now the long existing Rule of Law dealing with the definition of Thai or non-Thai for companies may be rewritten, and may well be applied retrospectively. If such a change occurs certain foreign shareholders may well loose fundamental rights. If the Nation's news article was correct in claiming that the NLA amendment would restrict the ability of foreign shareholders to (1) appoint or remove the company's directors, or (2) decide the strategy and major actions of a company, then a foreign shareholder might loose the fundamental right to control (even by blocking control) dividends, or he may loose the power to approve or to disapprove (again, by blocking control) of the sale of the major assets of a company.

Once the respect for Rule of Law is abandoned (in the Thai case, by the retroactive effect of law changes). . . . it is very difficult to conduct any business. No legal entity can be regarded as fully stable. The enforceability of contracts with Thai (or non-Thai) Companies may be questioned.

I know a few members of the Thai elite. Most of the one that I know have first class minds and are keenly aware of the dangers. Hopefully these fine people and logic will prevail.

A while back it seems like someone mentioned that there was a Thai Consulate in Cebu. Since I want to get a multiple entry Tourist Visa for my Filipina girlfriend, I was wondering if anybody had had any success in using that Consulate. I have read about all the horror stories about trying to get a TV in Manila and thought that maybe Cebu was a better alternative. Any information will be appreciated.

I am married to a Filipina. We own a condo in Thailand, but just decided the frustrations of Thai Visas was not acceptable so we have relocated to the Philippines.

I don't know whether there is or is not a Thai consulate in Cebu. But from personal experience I can tell you that the horror stories related to the Thai Embassy in Manila are true.

If I were you, I would take an Air Asia flight to KL. Spend a few nights in KL and get a tourist visa for yourself and your girlfriend.

I just buy a one year open ticket on Thai airlines. There is about a THB 800 to 1,000 charge to obtain a refund if you do not use it. The refund takes about 2 to 3 months.

Please accept my apologies . . . this sign is in the Philippines, not Pattaya . . . .still I love it . . .

"Immaculate Conception Clinic . . . .Lady Doctors . . . .No Waiting"

Has anyone applied for a tourist visa in Thai Embassy in Manila? Do they give 2+2 months? Is it possible to get the visa next day?

Don't even try. First, it is impossible to find out their requirements in advance. The requirements are made up as needed so as not to issue a visa.

I am a U.S. citizen, in my late 50s, and a respectable looking professional The Embassy in Manila refused to issue me a visa because: (i) although I had a valid ticket out of Thailand, I did not have a ticket back to the Philippines; and (ii) although I had a valid ticket from Manila to Thailand, I had not booked a flight to Thailand, and when I did book a flight the Embassy would not accept the validity of my ticket because the ticket to Thailand was purchased more than six months before I had applied for the visa. The fact that the ticket was a expensive one year open ticket on Thai airlines was not acceptable.

The place is an embarrassment.

There is a real question under Thai law as to when a Company is Thai, and when a Company is not Thai.

Depending on the intended function of the Company, various levels of shareholding are required to meet the required level of Thainess.

For some purposes a company that has 51% of its shares owned by Thai individuals is consider to be a Thai company.

For other purposes (e.g., land ownership) a company that has less than 40% of its shares owned by non-Thais is (or sadly, perhaps was) considered Thai.

Where a government has for many years knowingly accepted a level of shareholders to meet the "Thainess" test, and then acts to change this level without protecting those who relied on standards established by that government, this is confiscation.

Does anyone have experience of this?

Is it fairly straight forward?

Is it all done at the land office or will I need a third party?

Do I need to pay anything besides for the land transfer?

Who will own the land while it is trusted?

Who owns the trust?

Is it safe?

Is it legal?

As you can see I am a little green about the whole thing....!

There is no trust law in Thailand. You can either transfer or mortgage.

Irene is correct. There is no trust in Thailand.

There is so much talk about the down turn in the market and I have seen it first hand myself.

I am interested to know who has actually sold a property in the last few months. I dont want to hear from the agents as that is not the point of the thread. Ive been in real estate here for a long time and I KNOW, things are more than slow in Phuket.

Interested to hear from the sellers please. Property type, location and price.

I have a beautiful house in Bang Saray. Since the Thai Government announced that they were going to investigate all the tricky dicky Thai Corps opened by Gooofs like me, I totally expect nothing but the worst from the Thai's. All my friends have their homes set up the same way, some have millions of USD in Thailand. If the Thai's dont steal the property, you can be assured they are going to HORSE F_ _ K out of thousands, tens of thousands of worthless USD. I have my home for sale 20K under what I paid for it two years ago, and not one looker!!!!!

Well this sounds like a troll. However giving the benefit of the doubt to this newbie, it would appear then to highlight that no matter how much wealth one has, or claim to have, to attempt to circumvent the law, even in Thailand, is unwise. Why cry Wolf now because you have been naughty boys and may get your hands slapped ? Please don't attempt to justify your own shortcomings by attempting, unsuccesfully, to blame the Thais for your own imprudence in financial investment. Annoying it may be to potentially have your investment put at risk, but then you did not mitigate that risk by knowingly investing in this manner originally. Like gambling, if you can not afford to lose it, don't risk it as you have only yourself to blame if it goes wrong.

Espirt . . . . First, I am not taking a shot at you. . . .

But the Thai government for more than 15 years has permitted and condoned the formation of corporations by foreigners for the purpose of owning land. The Land office, the Company's office, Thai accounting firms, Thai lawyers all condoned the transactions and the company scheme. It is an act of confiscation for the Thai government to challenge the the ownership rights of those who bought under a scheme permitted for years by the Thai govenment.

I do not own any land in Thailand under the company scheme.

I find it deeply offensive that a Thai can go to my county, buy land there, and be assured of full ownership rights, while my country men face the loss of ownership rights in property they have bought through a scheme accepted for years by the Thai government.

Isnt that always the way ?? When boarding aircraft I often get asked for a proof of ticket in the old days when I was on visa free arrival.. I dont get asked if I have a non O..

So they enforce it at land borders also now ?? Is that the point ??

Just tell them you have an e-ticket on a ticketless airline.. That'll flommox em !!

With respect to e-tickets, at the Thai Embassy in Manila I have been required to show a letter on the letter head of the airline confirming that I had an e-ticket. This letter was required to be dated within 30 days of my showing it and the letter had to state that I had a confirmed seat on a plane out of Thailand within the next 30 days.

The way it works in many countries is that any portion of a day counts as a full day.

So if you arrive in the morning and leave in the afternoon, this is one day.

And if you arrive at 11:59 pm on the 10th and leave at 8 a.m. the 11th, this is two day.

Andy . . .

We met many years ago in Bangkok, and all I can do now is to wish you the best.

I too know people who have relied on the longstanding 30 day visa rule. Like you some of these people support extended families of dozens (in one individuals case, 25 people).

I know of one man who is over 50, and owned assets outside of Thailand which he could have used to get a retirement visa. Instead he sold his assets so that he could pay for cancer surgury for the father of his Thai girl friend. His income is not regular, and does not meet the retirement financial requirements. Now Thailand does not want him to stay.

I know another man, who worked for some 20 years for the Thai government. He owns a small parcel of land where he live. He too is over 50, but can not meet the retirement financial requirements.

A lot of very fine people have made Thailand their home, by relying on the 30 day entry program.

For those of you who think you are ok because you are now able to comply . . .think about the following.

Everyone who owns a house on the company scheme is now in danger. The Thai govenment is now considering changing the voting rights requirement under the Foreign Business Act. If they change the requirment for whatever your house holding company is doing, . . . . .you may be deeply unhappy. Or you may find it more difficult to sell the house you now have to a non-Thai.

I have made my call . . .After 15 years, I left Thailand, even though I could meet the present visa program requirements. . . . .

Once again wrong information if Immigration is to be believed. It is the number of days in Thailand that is to be counted - not the number of entries.

It is definitely days. I have had four (30 day) stamps issued to me since Oct 1. Two stamps at the Cambodia boarder, and two at the airport.

Just ran into a funny problem with AirAsia's ticketless itinerary.

In the Philippines all Filipinos are required to show that they have a return ticket to the Philippines before they are allowed to either get a boarding pass or pass through Philippine Immigration.

Today, my wife (a Filipina) tried to board a Philippine Airline flight in Manila, and she showed a valid AirAsia itinerary showing her confirmed flight from Bangkok back to the Philippines. AirAsia agents in Clark had twice previously confirmed to her that the AirAsia itinerary was sufficient.

Phillippine Air insisted they need some special something from Air Asia. I don't know what. We now have a confirmed seat to the Philippines on Kuwait Airlines.

Needless to say, she missed the flight today. The next flight is 3 Dec 06, the day we were to return to the Philippines on Air Asia. AirAsia now wants to charge be THB 3,714 to change the flight dates.

I have sent Air Asia a long letter explain that I think it would be fair if they would waive this rebooking charge. Even if they waive the re booking charge, I am stuck with about THB 10,000 of expenses for extra ground transportation, canceled hotel rooms, etc.

Is there anything on the market to place over the keyboard on a laptop to change keys from english ti thai script?

This is not a reply to your exact question, but on multiple occasions I have taken a laptop with a broken keyboard into repair shops and they have put new keyboards on the laptop, which include Thai script. The price was modest.

I always walk thru the 'nothing to declare, side at customs, but the truth is, I haven't a clue as to what I should or should not declare. This is the first time I'm bringing in a laptop. Should I declare it or not?

Ten years ago it was a bit of a big deal walking through customs with a laptop.

In the last ten years, I have carried my laptop through hundreds of customs check points (including at least a 100 trips into Thailand), and no questions and no issues. The only time you are going to run into a problem is if you buy a new laptop and try to walk through the green line at customs with the lap top (or even a printer) still in its original packing boxes.

On my China Air flight from Taiwan to BKK on 18 Nov 06, I was not asked if I had a ticket out of Thailand (although I did have one to show if requested).

AirAsia web site is now advising that they will require a ticket leaving Thailand, as a condition of boarding one of their flights into Thailand.

As for e-tickets . . . in the past I have gone to the Airline who issued the e-ticket and they have issued to me a letter on their stationary confirming that I had an e-ticket. I made sure that this letter was dated within 30 days of the date I was to board the plane into Thailand.

some weeks ago i posted something to that affect. search on my nick.

my first comment would be to try in your working country. i think this best - assuredly you are working AND you are on holiday.

second, if you go to a third country, why not spend time there (like phils), at that point you might only need a single.

finally, new tousirt cards do not allow you to NOT use a visa and take a thirty day stamp but you might tray it and say to immigration you are going to burma/lao after you buy a ticket and returning to thailand. that will give you 30+60+ext (if possible) on a single.

i have heard that visas in sanur (bali) are ok but that was years ago. surely there is no deluge of applicants.

Forget the very thought of getting a tourist visa at the Thai Embassy in the Philippines.

I and and my british boyfreind likes to get marry in Thailand?I am a Filipino and he is British..is it possible?please help us...

I (USA citizen) married my Filipina girl friend here a few years ago. It is much simpler to get legally married here than to do it in the Philippines. Once you get legally married here, you just go to the Philippine embassy on Sukumvite Road and they note the name change on your passport.

If you just have a ceremony here - even in a church - it is not a legal marriage, and will not be recognized by either the Thai government or the Philippine government or the UK. A ceremony is not necessay in Thailand. What is necessary is presenting the right paper work to the Thai officals. You can do it yourself. Just go to the web sites for the Philippine Embassy and the British Embassy.

I did not want to go through the frustration and hired a lawyer to make sure all of our papers were correct. I paid about THB 18,000. A friend of mine just did the same thing a month ago and it cost it about THB 16,000.

Oh yes . . .at the Philippine Embassy, you and your husband will have to fill out a form. It's not too bad . . .only takes about 20 min. The embassy then sends a copy to Manila: one copy for the Department of Foreign Affars Manila, and one copy for the Philippine Civil Register.

I don't remember how now, but we eventually got a copy stamped by the Philippine National Statistics Office. I think my wife got it or picked it up when she was in Manila. It was a few months after the marriage. The people at the Philippine Embassy here were very good in explaining what was necessary.

The US Embassy did not require me to register anything there. I don't know what the requirements of the UK Embassy might be.

Just go to the web sites. The information is quite clear.