ColPyat

Perhaps twelve million ghosts of the genocide are haunting those Thai teachers now.

We all know you Jews are the God's favourites, but does that entitle you to have two souls each ?

Estimates over Holocaust victims range from zero (Ahmadinejad extimate) to six millions.

And the ghosts of all German and Japanese civilians killed by the "good guys" carpet bombings, are they entitled to haunt their killers too , or again, that's a Jews only priviledge ?

Wow, this debate goes into some not very nice directions.

Yes, there is now a rather clear view that the city bombings in WW2 is to be considered a war crime, and also Bomber Harris is generally reviled in the UK (by people who have some idea on history). Nevertheless - these victims should not be set against the holocaust victims in some sort of you did, and so did we debate.

The Holocaust did exist in all its brutality, millions of Jews died (i believe somewhere around 80% of the European Jewish population), millions of Russian POWs died in prisoner of war camps and concentration camps. Many communists, socialists, social democrats, Gipsies, Homosexuals, Jehowas's witnesses, Catholic opponents, people who made jokes about Hitler at the wrong time, and whoever else.

Estimates of holocaust victims do not range from zero. They differences in opinion are about a few million here or there. Which, is not really much a difference of opinion, only a difference in statistics.

Anyhow, back to the topic - dressing up as a Nazi especially in a school festival is particularly distasteful, as this is supposed to be an institution of education. And especially hypocritical in a country that actively discourages even academic research into its own darker chapters, bans books, and blacklists their authors, making the profession of a historian a rather dangerous occupation.

Such a country is in dire need of education into the Nazi era, and pointing out such distasteful events is part of this education.

Yes John. You like SJ and Plus and Tony C seem to have a grip on reality, unlike some others

Totally agree with this view. We are already at the weekend and I dont see the panicking just yet

No wonder that you don't see much - you replied to a post that was one and a half months old.

Time for new glasses?

And by the way, at the coup anniversary a month ago was a demonstration at Sanam Luang.

Doubtful on the opera house, but there are art galleries here and when the super big Bangkok style mall opens in 2009, I am sure there will be fashion shows.

I know Bangkok pretty well, and believe it or not, there are things in Pattaya that really give Bangkok a run for the money. Some new things happening here, really good Persian restaurants (better than Bangkok's by far), really good Korean restaurants equal and better than Bangkok, really good Russian restaurants (better than Bangkok). I would bet big money on Pattaya now, we have a nice ocean view and air you can breathe!

The cosmopolitan aspect is reflected by the fact that Pattaya is now a truly INTERNATIONAL city. A much greater percentage of residents and tourists are not Thai. They come from all over the world. That pretty much defines cosmopolitan.

cos·mo·pol·i·tan

adjective

Definition:

1. made up of diverse peoples: composed of or containing people from different countries and cultures

2. showing cultural diversity: showing the influence of many countries and cultures

the city's cosmopolitan atmosphere

3. international in scope: having worldwide relevance or scope

events of national and cosmopolitan importance

BTW, lots of cosmopolitan people like a good shag now and again too! The Big Sleazy is growing on me ...

Of course, these are the early days of the emergence of Pattaya as a great world city. When we finally get Bangkok style TAXI METERS, then it will be official.

Pattaya art galleries?

You mean those paint after a photo, copy your favorite old master cheaply and badly chop shops?

I can imagine the Pattaya fashion show: Prize for the coolest football shirt, extra mention of the most tasteful combination of white socks, sandals and shorts. And of course a wet T-shirt contest.

Worldwide relevance? Yeah of course - WW2 is still fought between beer bellied Brits and Germans.

Cosmopolitan? Right... Manchester-Pattaya-Dortmund - the axis of the mullet.

Well, I guess it all depends upon whether you see Thai school children in 2007, who are dressed in Nazi uniforms, as being a similar threat.

These particular school children are obviously not a threat, i haven't seen anyone here suggesting so. They were just in extremely bad taste. A similarly bad taste if in a western school parade some teacher would get the grand idea of dressing his pupils as Pol Pot and Khmer Rouge.

What though is a serious threat is that Nazi and Fascist ideology (if you look at Thai history - a direct influence from those days) is still openly admired by many people in power here, especially within the armed forces. Nazi Swastikas are by some Thais used in full knowledge what they stand for - a highly nationalist and racist world view, not too dissimilar the self definition of Thailand - the three pillars.

So, yes, especially here in Thailand there is a very strong need for a clear critical analyzes of the ideologies the Nazi Swastika represent, especially in school. Instead - what is taught in schools is a clear nationalist ideology.

In this spirit - the children in Nazi costumes are not only in bad taste, but do represent a clear lack of education of some important issues in the Thai school system.

Decided to post this in general, rather than the Pattaya forum.

Pattaya was mentioned in the latest Bangkok-based Big Chili Magazine as ...

"the most cosmopolitan city in Thailand"

God yes, soon there will be the Pattaya Opera house, the Pattaya center of experimental art, and the Pattaya fashion week...

:D

we discussed nazis, holoucaust etc (and ive contemplated taking him to the holocaust museum here)... but the whole thing doesnt interest him: the past is past and people are 'crazy' (baa) was his comment...

Well, there is some of the more important literature, such as the Diary of Anne Frank, translated into Thai. My wife found this rather captivating, and after reading some about period, has been able to draw direct parallels to the problems of contemporary Thailand, and through the example of Nazi Germany has been able to understand her own environment much better.

Ehem...

personally, i am not competent enough to have a informed debate about the Israel-Palestine problem, other than that i believe in the right for existence of both Israel and Palestine, and that huge mistakes have been made by all involved sides (which go beyond both people's directly involved).

But - i think the thread topic - Nazi celebration in Thai schools, and related issues such as acceptance of Nazi/Fascist ideology and/or methods in Thailand - give more than enough space for animated debate than going down an unsolvable and emotional Israel/Palestine debate.

?

The East owes nothing to the West and frankly any opportunity for the modern youth of Asia to show their contempt for the arrant hypocrisy of so called western values should be seized without hesitation.

Hypothetically speaking - would it then perfectly alright to model myself along Pol Pot, and make public displays of admiration for the Khmer Rouge, and no Khmer would have any right to state his disgust because i am not from his cultural background?

And, so called "Asian Values" as used in political speeches all over here, with emphasis on the submissive role of the individual to the state and its elites, when closely analyzed, are nothing but lame excuses for the upkeep of exploitative systems not unlike any other totalitarian system in human history, including the west's, and are as hypocritical in the face of the suffering of its people, if not more so.

Western values are unfortunately translated as American values, especially its real effects, which have very little to do with the the values in itself, as propagated by its elites mostly, though not shared by most other western societies, and also not by most Americans (unfortunately most Americans are not aware what crimes their elites commit in their name, by perverting otherwise admirable values).

For me - there are only existing certain Human values and aspirations, shared by Humanity (tolerance, self realization, health, education, work, freedom, etc.), which unfortunately both in the east and the west lag behind reality. In the developing and underdeveloped world maybe more so than in the developed world (especially when it concerns liberties and rights of their own citizens).

All major religions and value systems basically teach a compassionate society, in which the individual has the right for self realization only bound by rules of compassion, empathy and tolerance towards others - the less of that, the less developed. And reality of Asian societies presently lag far behind.

Nevertheless, in many Asian societies there is very strong political support for Nazi style ideology, militarism, and it's leader principle. Unfortunately in Thailand there is this support existing.

how is that possible when Thais (and Asians) do not fit into the Nazi concept of a "master race" at all and would most likely have been persecuted?

It's a bit more complicated than just the ideas of an exclusive "master race".

Especially in India the (rather confused) Aryan Race ideologies are very popular as mainstream Indian culture derives also from Aryan cultures. The movement out of which the Nazi party grew was the "Voelkisch" movement, and this movement is more derived from ideologies of ethnic purity than a simplistic master race idea.

Many "mystic" Nazis believed (and still do) in the Shambala ideas, of a secret world government under the Himalayas in Tibet.

Nevertheless, what is attractive to totalitarian and semi totalitarian systems is the strong leader principle, the submission of the individual, racism, ideas of ethnic purity, militarism and the use of nationalist mass organizations. These ideas can be easily translated into other cultures.

Even in Nazi Germany's former bitter enemies you have very strong Nazi movements, such as in modern Russia. And idiotic as it sounds, even Israel had some minor problems recently with a group of anti-semitic Israeli Neo-Nazis, mostly children of Russian Jewish immigrants who could not manage to integrate.

Even in its heyday, Nazi ideology was a confused conglomerate of primitive and/or misunderstood ideas and ideologies, more often than not contradicting each other. Even Hitler's "My Struggle" - if you ever manage to read it (i managed just a few pages) contradicts itself on ever page several times.

What though was not contradictive were the mechanics of the state, the absolutism, and the utterly submissive role of the individual, a racist world view - which makes it very attractive to ethnic based totalitarian systems.

Here in Thailand you have very strong attempts to base its nationalism on (invented) ethnicy, including the propagation of altered and revisionist history and culture.

One has to make careful distinctions here.

As earlier mentioned - the swastika is a symbol used around the globe since thousands of years, and just because the Nazis occupied that symbol does not mean that others should not use it anymore, unless it comes in the Nazi particular color code.

Nevertheless, in many Asian societies there is very strong political support for Nazi style ideology, militarism, and it's leader principle. Unfortunately in Thailand there is this support existing.

Many Asian countries have a history of Nazi support. One reason is that the Nazis and allied Japan have supported during WW2 anti colonial movements against the British, such as Aung San in Burma, or Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose in India. Also Fieldmarshal Phibul Songkram was a Nazi/fascist admirer (as were to differing degrees other parts of the Thai elite as well).

Another reason is that during the beginning of nation building here, and during the anti communist era, especially in Thailand, the state used Nazi/fascist style mass organisations and nationalism to bind the masses to the state, in which the individual's role in society is defined in a a submissive position to the state/society/hierarchy in the context of a nationalism replacing feudalism.

One thing that has puzzled me for a long time here in Thailand was the free use of the Nazi particular Swastika so often seen by Thai Hippies (or better - these guys dressed like Hippies). A conversation with an older Thai Hippi has explained a lot to me. His explanation was that Thai Hippies, different than western Hippies, or what we understand as Hippies, have been/are openly Nationalist, even racist, and the use of this particular symbol was a very conscious support for some the ideologies Nazis stand for.

There were/are countless mass organisations in Asia that are openly pro Nazi, or closely associated with Nazi/Fascist ideology. In India there are the RSS and its sub-organizations, the VHP (all with their confused Aryan ideologies and Hindutva), the Bombay/Maharashtra based Shiv Sena (their founder Bal Thakrey has written even a book stating strong support for Hitler), here in Thailand especially to note are the village scouts and many other state supported militias and paramilitary organizations that still function very similar to Nazi/Fascist principles.

This is one of the more uncomfortable (at least for me) realities of contemporary Asia.

Bankrupting the country while lining your own pocket is hardly Shakespearian. More Suhartoian or Marcosian I would have thought!

He didn't bankrupt the country - pure hyperbole.

The first post coup finance minister made in his first statement the declaration that the debt situation of Thailand was in order, and so were the foreign currency reserves. The money spent on the schemes have not been huge portions of the budget at all, and all was covered.

The first things the new government did was taking money off the schemes, and increasing the military budget tremendously (and not much has trickled down to the normal soldiers - there is for example still a huge lack of bullet proof vests for combat troops down south).

The ones who are bankrupting the country right now is this government. Maybe present censorship forbids the reports - but there are since several weeks mass lay offs in all the industrial zones, and many rumors of factory closings towards the new year.

I am not a Thaksin fan at all, but lets not get overboard here.

I am sure she would appreciate a little romance but don't want to look an idiot in front of her.

Just casually say that you would like to marry her when you are sitting together in your apartment, and ask her what she what she thinks.

That's it. Anything else - and you will look like a right tosser.

Actually, what is it going to take for the authorities to take tourist safety seriously?

Personally, i don't not like the shift of fault solely to the guides and authorities. In the end - everybody should start taking over responsibility for themselves.

People treat nature as their little playground without being prepared at all what may expect them, part of our holiday adventure culture. Wrong equipment, lack of fitness, lack of abilities and lack of knowledge are the major causes for such accidents. I have done more than a few outdoor sports when i was younger, and i have worked as a life guard - almost all accidents were self caused for those reasons.

Caving? Very dangerous, and people really should inform themselves what may happen, what equipment is used, and for Christ's sake - a ten year old boy, and even without parents!

I am very sorry, but in the rain season going into a cave, only relying on some "guides" is just absolutely stupid. Think before you get yourself into a potentially life threatening situation. And if you have to rely on somebody else without having the necessary training and abilities - don't do it!

this had to be done to protect the nation, king and buddhism, and to keep the country unified, us westerners just dont understand apparently but it true, just ask any thai

Most Thais have not much idea about what happened at Oct. 6th., especially the nastier details. Still today much about what happened cannot be talked about in public.

But you will find many Thais of that generation who were there or lost friends there very angry. This day was a watershed day, and still has impacts on Thai politics. Samak was involved, and so were many others - and nobody was punished.

If you really think the brutal murder of maybe hundreds, the raping and torture, was "necessary" - then i would suggest educating yourself a bit.

nice piece. however, i do believe that their were concerns that both Thailand and Vietnam had concerns on Cambodia, at that time, and neither of those scenarios were acceptable.

The situation in Cambodia wasn't acceptable either - Khmer Rouge were rather methodically eliminating their population, and it just beats me how the west, together with China, has then, after the ouster of the Khmer Rouge by the Vietnamese, supported the Khmer Rouge with weapons, and even training.

I just think that interventionism, other than by diplomacy, and by fair trade, and tourism, will make things worse. The road to hel_l is paved with good intentions. Regarding the US (and the west, mostly in semi vassal status to the US) - somewhat related to the thread topic, extrapolating in a general sense - i don't even believe in its good intentions most of the time, looking again at Gen. Butler's 'War is a racket'.

forgive me, did we forget to mention the "invasion" of Cambodia by the Vietnamese before the liberation? or how about the intrusion by the vietnamese into Laos? does anyone think Thailand accepted and agreed to U.S. military aid for no reason? no, i believe that this period of time was a serious power struggle, and while i am no scholar, the literature is out there for us all. good reading and best to us all.

A very impressive documentary was "Fog of War", about McNamara.

A very important part there was when McNamara met Giap, and Giap told him that the Domino theory was false - that they had no plans to invade and take over Thailand.

Cambodia always, throughout history, had to suffer aggressive attacks from both Vietnam and Thailand. Thailand also has invaded Laos in the late 19th century, and fought a incredibly brutal war with many Laotian villages burned to the ground and its inhabitants massacred.

I am of the view that the US had nothing to do in this part of the world at the time, and its intervention made things only worse, including establishing both with its partners and its enemies political systems through its involvement we still suffer from, and costing millions of lifes.

any "liberation" leader that accepted finances from Russia and China in those days, would,of course, have had very little politically in common with the U.S. He was after all a communist. however, i will grant you things could have been handled better. i think what i am trying to get across, to some extant, is that the South East Asian war crisis comprised more than just the American involvement.

No doubt about that. Laos was not just bombed the the US, but by China and Vietnam as well.

That doesn't make US involvement any less shameful. The Khmer Rouge support by the US and the UK especially was maybe the most surreal situation - the most barbaric system that came out of communism was supported by the most anti-communist superpowers, together with Maoist China, against Socialist Vietnam.

Bullshit baffles brain...

if i remember correct, the OSS was involved during the Japanese occupation. uncle Ho did get around. but, it was the Chinese backing, with the compliance of the Russian state, that supported the Viet Minh, which was Ho's own personal "solution" to the problems he saw were at hand.

Many liberation leaders with a socialist tinge were by anti communist paranoia forced into the hands of Russia or China because they could not get support from the west. There are still letters of Ho Chi Minh pleading with several US presidents not to go to war with Vietnam, even the last ones during the US involvement in Vietnam.

Half of it: "If you still believe that it is all about freedom, then you should read Gen. Smedley Butler's "War Is a Racket".

Other Half of it: "It is our conduct, our patriotism and belief in our American way of life, our courage that will win the final battle."

The one half was a highly decorated General that became disgusted by the conduct of the US governments bing only a front for big business, and the patriotic half was a by a collaborator of the Nazis. Hmmm...

The US has already lost all credibility during the overthrow of Sukarno, installing Suharto, and causing the death of millions in the first two years after, and decades of suffering under Suharto's brutal regime. I don't think i need to remind you of the support for countless brutal dictators all over the world.

Heck - even Osama Bin Laden was once CIA's favorite boy, and so were the Taliban.

No, it's not about freedom - it's only about US corporate interests, always was, even during the Lewis and Clarc expedition, while you believed it was about freedom, and actually still trust your government when they send you off to war and kill and die for their corporate interests.

I feel sorry for you guys.

sickening history indeed, however it is reality. in this particular topic, however, you may have made a better point by criticising Stalin, Mao, and Ho himself, for the beginning of the violence that was thought necessary to dispose of the French presence. uncle Ho was no angel.

He definitely wasn't an angel.

The fun part here though is that Uncle Ho worked during WW2 for the OSS - the preceding organization for the CIA, because he was promised by the US a free Vietnam. After De Gaulle's pressure the US though returned Vietnam to France after WW2.

We don't need to debate on Stalin - he was one of the worst mass murderers humanity has seen. Mao is a bit more controversial. I personally believe that the revolution in China was necessary, and there simply was at the time no realistic alternative to Mao (and Chiang Kai Check was IMHO no alternative, and not one bit better than Mao). Only after the revolution Mao has quickly lost it, and caused tremendous suffering.

Actually, that's fun:

"It is our conduct, our patriotism and belief in our American way of life, our courage that will win the final battle."

Prescott Bush, grandfather of George W. Bush, indicted under the trading with the enemy act in 1942, for his collaboration with Nazi Germany.

Sorry about all the bombing and the sneaky financing. Right up to this day, as the cost is dearly laid upon the alter of freedom for those Iraqis and Afghans, for the Albanians, and for the South Koreans who do not have to sing Kim Jong Elvis's praises.

Sorry 'bout all the noise.

If you still believe that it is all about freedom, then you should read Gen. Smedley Butler's "War Is a Racket".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler

Nothing changed.

"I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints."

Gen. Butler, twice awarded the Medal of Honor, 1935

"There has been a glaring, unfortunate display of incompetent strategic leadership within our national leaders. In my profession, these type of leaders would immediately be relieved or court-martialed."

Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, on the Iraq War, 2007

"A business absolutely devoted to service will have only one worry about profits. They will be embarrassingly large."

Henry Ford, American entrepreneur, founder of Ford Motor Company, awarded 1938 the Grand Cross of the German Eagle - the highest award Nazi Germany gave to foreigners

etc.

I wish this were true .... Been here for 9 years and never saw prices coming down. They usually rather keep the condos empty then dropping the prices.

Waerth

Strange that but very often true.

No problem. There is a huge oversupply of rental property in Bangkok, and more than enough houses and apartments for very reasonable prices available.

"Lest We Forget".................R.I.P.

Even more important is 6th of October 1976.

But we can't talk much about that one.

It wouldn't be the first time the Chinese played opposing cold war nations off each other.

Same counts for the US - having very successfully played the China and Russia out against each other as well. Victims of that were the Tibetans (read 'Orphan's of the Cold War'), and also the Cambodians (Vietnamese supported by Russia - Khmer Rouge supported by the West and China in the civil war era).

Sickening history.