...Ken

I will refrain from being 'folksy'.

There have been some considerable changes that have benefited the Northern Thailand environment such as the cessation of DDT use. Back in '86 there were extremely few song birds in the Chiang Dao area. My wife tells how the 'government' would come into their villages each year and spray white powder inside homes and throughout the village to control mosquitos. Since '86 I have seen a constant rebuilding of the songbird (most evident) populations until now where they are raucously thriving.

Change does take time and we learn from those around us. Your "Lady Bird's decree" was but one voice during that slow movement to environmental awareness. I also remember being told to "throw your garbage out the window....don't mess up our new '59 Chevy Impala". Times change and the Thais will change in their own time. Environmentally aware Thai teachers at the primary grades is where any change will start....not laws/punishments.

Who knows...maybe even the majority of Yanks will come to realize why their actions have lost them the respect that their nation had once earned. However, I have more faith in the Thais ability to adapt.

...Ken

Hey lads, if we get much more heated I may have to pull the plug on this thread. A real shame, because it is a subject worth discussing in a calm manner.

It appears that the culture 'gap' is alive and well, but not exclusively between the Thais and Farrangs, but between the urban and the rurals as well. Rural people generally don't see the smoke as a major concern. You burn because the leaves have fell and it is dry enough to make them burn well. They know the rains are coming and the smoke will be gone soon enough. The new growth will emerge quicker and more abundantly. As I mentioned before, it has always been done ....because it works.

Consider my brothers in law, they log , hunt , farm and build. They stay in their valley and follow the seaons and the opportunities that the new season offers. Someone comes in from Chiengmai and says stop doing what you've been taught by your fathers to do, harvest less wild food, struggle more on the hillsides, deal with more snakes, etc. just because some Chiengmai folk have got smoke in their eyes.

You're the same people who have raised the price of farmland, raised the price of food and drive through their villages in your window tinted 'Benz. The boys in the bush just don't feel sorry for you.

Chiengmai has become a rather unpleasant place to live (in my opinion), but you can't stop the cars, you can't stop the development and you can't stop the influx of people........so you focus on the actions of some farmers while you reach for another pack of smokes ?

This is not directed towards Farrangs or Thais, just them damned Urbanites !

...Ken

......never met a tree I didn't want to hug.

Geez........and I thought you were all touchy, feely, hand holders.

...Ken

The existing nutrient in the Northen soil is certainly sufficient to support a vibrant forest ecology.

It is the diminishing number of tree roots per rai that is compromising the ability of the watershed to retain water, not the lack of or quality of the soil.

It's not simply the tree roots that make a watershed work. The composted organic material on the forest floor contributes to many kinds of plant growth, all of which contribute to the watershed.

What is usually regarded as "top soil" is seldomly found in any forest.

What I regard as topsoil is the composted organic material that is found in most healthy forests.

I believe we are both coming from a similar point of view. Yes, it is not simply the number of tree roots per rai.....but without the tree roots to anchor the mass of surface growth to the subsoil, and provide the shade that is a prerequisite to much vegetation, the ability for shallow rooted plants to retain excessive runoff is limited. I do challenge your opinion that visible 'top soil' is the 'be all' of a healthy forest ecosystem. On my wee farm up north, we brought in a tractor (many years ago) to scrape off the nutrient rich red clay where my driveway was to go. We later levelled a large area in a misdirected attempt to create a monoculture of green short stalked vegetation. In the process a good 6 inches of 'top soil' was redistributed. Once the rains came the yearly quota of 6 ft high prickle bush aka 'nam Khi yuh' takes over......and has done for 16 years. My point is that the northern Thailand surface/subsurface soil is very nutrient rich, with little or no degradation from hundreds/thousands of years of forest fires.

In regards to your statement "topsoil is the composted organic material that is found in most healthy forests". I don't intend to be confrontational, but you have apparently been reading more issues of Mother Earth News than might be necessary. Healthy forests generally have a very thin

layer of composted organic material. Healthy forests are always in transition, however the greatest period of time (between fires) is when there is a predominant canopy which blocks off light and checks understory growth....choking off almost all competitors. Fires open that canopy and allow light and nutrient to sustain new growth.

Having once been a logger I have been priviledged to have actually experienced the relative lack of

variety of life in 200/300 year old forest. A 50/100 year old forest has a far greater variety of life.

BTW....I have read my share of Mother Earth News ;-)

...Ken

I guess. Maybe just cut off part of their legs though to keep them from jumping on to you and on to cars, etc, all the time?

Well.....either that or spend the time socializing the beggars. I don't understand why dogs have such idiotic humans. Dogs WANT to learn new things. Dogs WANT to please you...well, okay, some should just not be fed anymore. Each time we return to our village house my daughter takes in 3 to 5 sickly puppies from the relatives. She nurses them to health and trains them up to respond to her in an appropriate way. When we return to Farrangland she gives them back to the relations. The family cannot figure out how we do it. We can turn a Thai dog into a civilized, affectionate, positively responding, loyal, and intelligent animal. These greatly coveted dogs still succumb to neglect from simple parasite infestations but my daughters guidance does extend their expected lives by about two years on average.

Point is, any dog can can develop to their full 'human socialized' potential......well okay, maybe not Dalmations. (smiley face).

....Ken

It's hard for Christian missionaries to gain a toehold in a Theravada Buddhist society, except among the most dispossessed.)

Some years ago I had to stay in Wieng Heng (west of Chieng Dao) and asked a missionary there "how's business?". He replied that it wan't too good with the Buddhists but they did very well with the Animists because ,with their belief structure, it was simply a lateral transfer of similar concepts.

This fellow had married into the Morse family of Chiengmai....a unique family to be sure !

...Ken

"But, it doesn't allow for much organic material to exist, so this is one reason for the lack of good top soil necessary for watershed in The North."

The existing nutrient in the Northen soil is certainly sufficient to support a vibrant forest ecology.

It is the diminishing number of tree roots per rai that is compromising the ability of the watershed to retain water, not the lack of or quality of the soil.

What is usually regarded as "top soil" is seldomly found in any forest. Nutrient and the appropriate ph

is what is required for sustainable tree growth....besides, the tree roots are usually far below the top soil. It is amazing what grows out of this barren looking red clay when the rains begin.

...Ken (aka the teakwalla)

The villagers burn the understory of the forests for definite reasons. I'm not supporting the practice as I have a wood house with only a wee creek between me and a wall of flame creeping down the mountain each year. However, it is a practice that has been going on for hundreds/thousands of years. The fires don't cause the damage in a deciduous forest as they do in a coniferous. The fires rarely get hot enough to seriously damage the soil and the ash adds nutrient and a ph balancing effect. Easier to walk uphill without those slippery leaves...less hiding spots for scorpions etc. when you are out harvesting plants. Torching the forests is done because it works and there is little disadvantage for the average villager. A definite disadvantage for the urban dwellers who are only used to their 'necessary' form of air contaminants.

However, I did read that in the 1890's you could see Doi Chieng Dao from Chiengmai.

...Ken