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Krungthepian
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Posts posted by Krungthepian
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Reports this morning indicate the Hmong being held in Nong Khai are getting stressed again because of fears they may be sent back to Laos this weekend .. despite Thai government promises they won't be returned.
It looks like three of the Hmong escaped. Two were later recaptured, allegedly trying to link up with their family members, elsewhere in Thailand. One was still on the run at about midday.
Hmong advocates in the US have warned that they fear the Thai government's promises not to forcibly deport the 156 may be meaningless, given the fact 160 other Hmong with similarly strong claims to refugee status were deported last weekend - with Thai officials allegedly using electric stun guns to herd them out of Khao Kor jail.
Laos posted pics on the internet of the "returnees" but Hmong advocates say these only show the women, and they are wondering why the pictures do not show the men - where have they been taken? And what condition are they in?
This paranoia creeps in because Laos forbids international or neutral observers to check on the detainees.
The one thing that may "save" these Hmong at Nong Khai is the fact they have UN status as 'people of concern'.
Officials from various countries and groups such as Amnesty, which is following the situation closely, are now trying to determine if a couple that was in Khao Kor - the only ones of about 36 "jungle Hmong" there with UN status - were deported last weekend. Thai official sources have said 34 were sent back from Khao Kor, so there is some hope that couple, who have three young children in Nong Khai IDC, may remain in Thailand.
Meanwhile, senior Thai journalists have been wondering why Thailand has deported the 160 Hmong last weekend - and repeatedly assuring the press and international comunity they would not do so. The action has drawn complaints from the US, the UN, EU and others.
One speculated in a private conversation yesterday that Thai officials - possibly the PM Surayud - had made a promise to its little neighbour and felt obliged to fulfill that vow - for the sake of good relations with "little brother".
The big question is, were the 156 at Nong Khai part of that grubby deal? Or can they say, 'enough, we have to balance international concerns with bilateral relations'?
The answer to that is unknown at present, although I'd guess they don't need further international heat. On the other hand, Hmong advocates in the US fear their kin at Nong Khai are vulnerable now - as the US (who have been vocal and closely following these developments) are set to bring in a new ambassador in Bangkok. Ralph Boyce is heading elsewhere apparently.
With all the talk of another coup in Bangkok (quite intense last night), and Thaksin's assets being frozen, rallies planned throughout Isaan and the North this weekend, there have been distractions aplenty in the capital, and the Hmong have slipped off the news pages.. once again. That adds to the "danger" some think.
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Lao authorities have posted pics online of the deported 160 returning to Laos - presumably for US community.
The link is:
Photos with the caption "160 misled hmong handover"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dkj-hmong/
The pics look quite tame.. but only had a quick squiz at them.
There have been unconfirmed reports of about five people being beaten unconscious by Thai police prior to this return.. and a similar number of relatives of known jungle Hmong or their relatives being tortured in a certain jail back in Laos (in stocks and mistreated).. and serious injuries and one death.. 2 men reportedly attempted suicide in Khao Khor a day or two before the mass deportation, one supposedly by drinking pesticide and the other by sitting or running in front of a car.. curiously, this was after Nation report they were badly beaten for refusing to sign a form consenting to their return to Laos.
Other reports not confirmed. Hard to make out truth and exaggeration. The lady who sends reports from the US said they were hysterical on Friday and Saturday, and she gets affected by that too (being part Hmong).
Some people commenting also that the Thais have forgotten that the Hmong were their front-line allies during the Vietnam War and that thousands of Thais fought alongside them. Problem is, with all the domestic mayhem - court verdicts and former PM having his assets frozen (painful process one can only hope), is doesn't always get the attention it deserves.
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Couple more stories here:
UN 'deeply concerned' at Thai deportation of Hmong to Laos
AFP 11-6-07
BANGKOK - The UN's refugee agency said Monday it was "deeply concerned" about Thailand's deportation of more than 160 ethnic Hmong back to Laos at the weekend.
The communist government in Laos confirmed that the Hmong had been sent back across the border by Thailand early Saturday as part of a resettlement process that has been criticised by human rights groups.
"We're deeply concerned about the deportation," said Kitty McKinsey, spokeswoman for the UN High
Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) in Bangkok.
More than 7,000 Hmong have lived for years in and around informal refugee camps, many of them hoping to eventually settle in the United States.
Vientiane and the military rulers in Bangkok recently agreed to repatriate those who are deemed illegal migrants and found to be Lao citizens in a process not supervised by the UN refugee agency.
The UNHCR has called for screening for the Hmong to see if any should be officially classified as refugees and granted international protection.
"We find it highly regrettable that such a screening did not take place before the deportation," McKinsey said.
London-based human rights group Amnesty International said last month that Lao troops were still hunting and killing scattered bands of Hmong hiding in the jungle and accused Thailand of forcibly repatriating refugees.
Many Hmong in the 1960s and 70s fought alongside US forces when the Vietnam War spilled into Laos. After the war ended in 1975, hundreds of thousands fled to Thailand and many were later resettled in the US.
The former Hmong commander of a CIA-funded "secret army," General Vang Pao, now a 77-year-old US citizen, was arrested in California last week with eight others, accused of plotting a violent coup against the Lao government.
gs/jw Thailand-Laos-migrants-Hmong-UN AFP 110913 GMT JUN 07
Thailand deports 163 ethnic Hmong asylum-seekers back to Laos
AP 11-6-07 Photo TOK108, by Ambika Ahuja
BANGKOK - Thailand has expelled 163 ethnic Hmong asylum-seekers in the first major repatriation since the United States charged one of their tribal leaders with planning an insurrection in Laos, Thai and Lao officials said.
The officials, as well as Hmong rights activists, said the 163 who were deported Saturday had been held for illegal immigration at four police stations near a large Hmong refugee settlement in Thailand's Phetchabun province, 300 km north of the capital, Bangkok.
One of the most prominent Hmong exiles, former guerrilla leader Vang Pao, was charged in US federal court last Monday with plotting a violent overthrow of Laos' communist government.
# Tharit Charungvat, a spokesman for Thailand's Foreign Ministry, said the expulsions were not related to the charges against Vang Pao.
"There is no link to this case whatever. ... It's the policy to send back illegal immigrants, that's all," he said.
The Hmong claim they are persecuted by the Lao government, which distrusts the tribal group because it sided with a pro-American government against the communists during the Vietnam War.
They say they fear for their safety if forced back to Laos.
In March, Amnesty International drew attention to the plight of thousands of Hmong tribespeople still in Laos, whom it said are being hunted down in the jungles by the country's communist regime - an allegation denied by the government.
Some 8,000 other Hmong at the Huay Nam Khao camp remain there, even though the Thai government also considers them illegal immigrants and subject to deportation.
Most of those expelled Saturday had been caught trying to get into the refugee camp in the past couple of years.
A Lao Foreign Ministry spokesman, Yong Chanthalansy, confirmed by phone that about 160 Hmong were sent back to Laos.
"We had a handover ceremony this morning at the border," he said, adding that it was not a forced
repatriation and the handover was peaceful.
# Tharit, the Thai Foreign Ministry spokesman, also said the deportation took place without resistance.
# However, a group that lobbies for the rights of the Hmong, the California-based Fact Finding Commission, said sources in Huay Nam Khao "reported beatings and the use of tear gas and stun guns by the Thai military" in the repatriation process.
The group, whose information has been reliable in the past, said when several Hmong began to fear on Wednesday that they would be repatriated, two of them - Lee Pao Vang and Wa Meng Lee - tried to kill themselves by taking poison, and that an unconfirmed report said one of them subsequently died.
The little-publicized plight of the Hmong was high-lighted recently with the arrest in California of Vang Pao, now 77, who led CIA-backed Hmong forces in Laos in the 1960s and 1970s as a general in the Royal Army of Laos.
He emigrated to the US in about 1975 and is generally acknowledged as the leader of the Hmong community there. Seven other prominent members of the Hmong community were arrested with him.
More than 300,000 Laotian refugees, mostly Hmong, fled to Thailand after the communist takeover. Most later resettled in the United States and elsewhere, but thousands of others stayed behind, some adjusting to the new hard-line regime and others staying in the jungle, where they faced continuing attacks.
Many lingered in Thai refugee camps. In May 2005, the last major camp was closed, and in what was supposed to be the final big movement of Hmong refugees, some 15,000 were relocated to the US.
But thousands more slipped through the cracks, coming to join the unofficial refugee settlement at Huay Nam Khao.
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Pardon me for saying it, but this is nothing new. There have been stories about this in the english language press here in recent weeks (The Nation in early May), and it's been talked about for one to two years.
These are the (mainly Karen) refugees who have sat and rotted in the border camps for up to 20 years. Many come from villages that have been destroyed by Burmese troops, and given little change in affairs in Karen and Shan states, what else does Thailand expect them to do? One would hardly expect them to return to a country overseen by military known for its lack of respect for human rights, brutal treatment of ordinary villagers, forced labour, summary executions, and spending little providing on desperately needed public services, such as health.
Why doesn't Thailand go a step further and take up the much repeated suggestion (by the UNHCR, Thai Border Burma Consortium, international NGOs and foreign governments) that these people be allowed to make a meaningful contribute to the local economy, near their camps .. open stores at markets, learn skills and interact with the local community in a more positive way.
Thailand seems to be paranoid it will be flooded with refugees - yet most people who deal with them say the Burmese want to go back to their homelands, when it is safe to do so. They don't want to stay in Thailand, stuck in indefinitely in the camps. In fact there is reportedly about 500,000 internally displaced people (IDPs) inside the border in Burma's eastern states - three times the total number in the Thai border camps (the TBBC and HRW use that figure). Those people aren't rushing into Thailand.
On the other hand, they are probably not in a position to do so, given the thousands of Burmese reportedly deported every month with minimal fanfare or coverage in the media (I saw info on the weekend quoting Human Rights Watch, which allegedly estimated 10,000 Burmese are trucked back, informally, each month).
If Thailand wants to stop the "pull" factor in which Burmese are encouraged to cross into Thialand so they can get to be resettled in the West, maybe they should follow some of the Karen who are being resettled abroad - and, say, make a documentary on the staggering changes such people have to cope with flying across the world to countries and cultures that, while safer, are utterly alien to them.That way, people in Thailand and on the border might be view about how tough that experience is.
British photographer James Fuller covered the resettlement of a Karen family who went to live in Buffalo, New York, a few months back. And you can tell just by his very good pictures, that is an enormous adjustment for these people to make. As he said, for people used to walking a day to get food, they are now living in a modern house (sleeping on the floor in sleeping bags in a crowded flat, by the look of it), and coming to grips with telephones, and a million other devices of the modern world, aside from having to learn a new language (often taught by Christian groups foisting their faith on the new arrivals). The faces on those people showed that the initial struggle they have to undergo is pretty traumatic.
Sometimes it seems that Thais have little grasp about life in their neighbouring countries - and little sympathy for those around them, who often have to cope with tremendous trauma and suffering.
It would be very interesting to see what would happen if a Thai administration did decide to sign the UN convention on refugees.. how much more financial and administrative assistance they would then get from international institutions such as the UNHCR, World Bank, ADB, etc.. and if the number of refugees would increase dramatically. At the moment you have groups such as MSF upset that they have to foot the bill for the Hmong refugees in Phetchabun (1.3 euros this yr), for 7800 refugees. And they reportedly can't get that money from the EU or other major donors unless Thailand signs the UN convention from 1951).
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Johpa mentioned a book - Back Fire: The CIA's Secret War in Laos and Its Link to the War in Vietnam by Roger Warner.. I think this has been re-titled 'Shooting At the Moon', and updated. It is a terrific read, and I've heard that Warner has been filming both here and in Laos - a documentary, I gather, with people such as Bill Lair (who oversaw the CIA operation in Laos before returning to the US). So that would be fascinating too.
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Meanwhile, scumbag Thaksin pounces round in Japan debating economics, and how he will spend the rest of his life teaching .. not funnelling money here to stir up unrest, recapture control of the government and de-railing several dozen corruption probes likely to see him jailed for 20 years.. I often think it's because of his staggering selfish-ness that this country has slipped into a dark abyss.
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As concerning the reports from the Laos Border indeed are, i have to wonder this more than emotive comment on Thaksin. What does he have to do with the thread topic, and the fact that Thailand is treating refugees badly?
These sort of actions happened long before Thaksin appeared on the scene along all borders with many ethic minority refugees, are now performed by the present government (a few expletives could be added as well).
Thaksin was just part of a long ongoing problem, and semi feudal remnants are far more responsible for his appearance, and the reason that Thailand is slipping into a dark abyss.
Col, it was an emotive aside. I neglected to explain why it was included - my point was that the junta under General Sonthi, the PM Surayud and current parliament (NLA) are very preoccupied with Thaksin, the remnants of his party ..whether it is the threat from growing rallies at Sanam Luang, more schools being burnt down in Isaan, or just the political structures emerging now that may well take key stakes in power after the next election. They also have the ugly violence in the South to combat. These events are, understandably, the government's key focus, and have taken huge amounts of energy to properly manage and oversee. One small example - I took a call from a farang friend in an Isaan village the other day describing how the local villagers were rostered on to stop their local school being burnt down. It was a very time-consuming effort involving a lot of people (and the next day one school was burnt down in Chaiyaphum, which is where he is).
The South is a horrendous weeping sore. I believe Surayud and Sonthi have made progress to resolving it, with the public apology and many other efforts. But they have had these other huge matters to consider - last week's court rulings and the possibility of massive unrest in Bangkok (think of all the cars they had to stop in the north and northeast prior to the rulings).. the lifting of the ban on political activities, etc. It's like a juggler with too many eggs in the air, and one of the eggs that has hit the ground .. is the Hmong refugees. I don't think Surayud and Sonthi are bad people - I rate them both very highly. But these people are overloaded, and I think Thaksin wants to keep it that way. He's facing endless years in jail. So, those on the extreme margins, suffer, as often happens.
If we look further into this, obviously, there are major problems relating to the leadership in Laos and that country's brutal policies in regard to the Hmong. One can only hope that the US action will spur some rethink in Vientiane and a far less brutal response towards the many hundreds of Hmong rotting in their jails.
My impression from reading an opinion piece in the Bangkok Post yesterday (Thurs), which spelt out very clearly the Thai military attitude to the Hmong - and possibly the overall Thai attitude to these people - is they don't want to know about the pitiful leftovers from the Indo-china war, now finally emerging from the jungle desperate for help. The Thais have got their own problems, and we have to acknowledge that.
Meanwhile, a correction: My previous post was incorrect. The group at Lom Sak who appear to have been taken to the border today is not the one in the Nation story. The Nation report was about a third group at Khao Kor police station. Sorry for getting that wrong.
The Nation and Post did not have a follow-up this morning to the bashing report yesterday, but I've just read an email from a Hmong rights advocate the US which says the Thais yesterday denied bashing anyone. They appear to have claimed the man hospitalised had attempted suicide by drinking pesticide. (People were then speculating as to who poured the pesticide into that poor fellow, but that appears to be the latest on that case).
Apologies for the error and being long-winded.
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More bad news.. another forced deportation has allegedly started .. in last hour or two (Friday mornign).. Thai police evicting the 45 Hmong at Lom Sak..
This group was mentioned in Nation report yesterday. It includes a young couple (young father of three split from children in Nong Khai IDC who has already tried to commit suicide);that couple HAS UN papers recognising them as 'people of concern'.Most of the rest allegedly from Blia Shoua Her group - jungle near Vang Vieng. They are believed to be relatives or survivors of the massacre on April 6 last year (26 people - mainly women and children, allegedly shot in back, buried 5km north of vv). Pictures of bodies were given to US photographer Roger Arnold, and are on his website (rogerarnold.net).
This group should have been joined with the 155 in Nong Khai - transferred to somewhere further inland - and resettled abroad. Half those at Nong Khai have been approved to go to 3rd countries, but Thais don't have capacitya to stand up like decent human beings.
---- [email protected] wrote:
I spoke with Gia Pao Her right now. He said the Thai Authority forces everyone with gun points....and we got disconnected.
(Earlier note)
Dear (name deleted) and the diplomatic community:
I received a call from the refugees in Lomsak indicated that the Thai Authority is in the process of forcing the group to get on truck, ready for deportation.
Everyone is crying and begging for help.
Please contact the [Army] as soon as possible [to try to stop this].
Laura
Nation report from Thursday (p4)
HMONG PAIR 'BASHED FOR OPPOSING DEPORTATION'
Supalak Ganjanakhundee, Jim Pollard
The Nation (Thurs 7-6-07, bottom half of p4)
Ethnic Hmong being sheltered in northern Phetchabun province were stunned by the arrest of former leader General Vang Pao and fear it may cause them to be forcibly deported back to Laos.
Vang Sen, leader of Hmong in Phetchabun’s Ban Huay Nam Khao shelter, said: “I think the lives of Hmong here will be in trouble. Assistance from relatives in the US will be affected, as it would be under close surveillance of both the Thai and US authorities.”
Vang Sen said he was a nephew of Vang Pao and a former fighter for the US Central Intelligence Agency, who fought the Communist Pathet Laos before the fall of Vientiane in 1975. While his uncle resettled in the US more than 30 years ago, Vang Sen says he was left in the jungle, but fled recently to Thailand.
# Late yesterday, it seemed his fears were well-founded. Two Hmong men who refused to sign documents giving consent to forced deportation to Laos were severely beaten in nearby Khao Kor jail, according to a Hmong rights advocate who telephoned from the US.
Lee Pao Vang had to be taken to hospital after he and colleague Vang Meng Lee were bashed by Thai officials, Joe Davy told The Nation.
The pair were among 36 Hmong in the jail. Most had fled jungle areas near Vang Vieng and were part of a group led by Blia Shoua Her, who is in Nong Khai Immigration Detention Centre (IDC), he said.
Two of the group have UN status – Theng Lor, 26, and his wife Yer Lee. They have three young children, all under 10, who are in Nong Khai IDC. Theng Lor tried to take his own life several months ago, so there are major concerns about him, Davy said.
“We fear they are treating them more harshly due to Vang Pao,” he said. “The Thai and Lao authorities may be trying to legitimise strong-arm tactics with the refugees. It seems to have started already with the beating of these two at Khao Kor.”
Some of the Hmong due to be sent back had already been accepted by third countries for resettlement, Davy said.
Thailand has sheltered more than 7,000 Hmong in Phetchabun for several years. Most claim they were associates with the CIA “secret war” and fled from suppression at home in the hope of being resettled overseas.
Thailand and Laos regard the group as illegal migrants who were victims of human trafficking, not fighters. Lao spokesman Yong Chantalangsy said his government was ready to take them back once Thai authorities finish screening them.
“We agreed in principle that whoever came from Laos would be repatriated sooner or later,” Yong told The Nation.
Lao officials are monitoring the Vang Pao trial in the US closely and will consult with Thai authorities on reactions and movements of Hmong in the Kingdom, he said.
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Makes you wonder if the fellow bashed unconscious (Lee Pao Vang) and taken to the local hospital is with the lot being trucked to the border. By an act of God he may have been spared. On the other hand, reports of the bashing indicated he may have been close to death - "covered in blood and saliva", Laura was told.
Meanwhile, scumbag Thaksin pounces round in Japan debating economics, and how he will spend the rest of his life teaching .. not funnelling money here to stir up unrest, recapture control of the government and de-railing several dozen corruption probes likely to see him jailed for 20 years.. I often think it's because of his staggering selfish-ness that this country has slipped into a dark abyss.
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Another report from y'day (Wed Thailand)..
DID HMONG CRISIS SPUR VANG PAO 'PLOT'?
Jim Pollard
The Nation (P8, Opinion Page)
News that General Vang Pao may have been plotting to overthrow the Lao government will come as little surprise to people in Laos, or groups and individuals within the region who have been following the plight of the “jungle Hmong”, which is particularly bad at present.
Remnants of Hmong groups that have survived since the war in remote areas of mainly northern Laos are in their death throes, given several years of a reportedly brutal crackdown by Lao and Vietnamese troops in the Saysomboom restricted zone, a series of large surrenders by the main jungle groups and a mass exodus across the Mekong to Phetchabun province.
The recent bilateral agreement by a ThaiLao border committee last month – to forcibly return any new arrivals to Laos “no matter how many bullet wounds they have”, as one sarcastic observer noted – was probably the straw that broke the proverbial camel’s back.
Vang Pao would have been acutely aware of how dire the situation has become in recent weeks, which have seen a series of alerts of looming forced deportations from detention centres in the North and far Northeast, where Hmong from Laos have been detained.
Websites in the US such as factfinding.org carry regular updates on the predicament of Hmong refugees here, which is now an issue of international attention thanks to activists such as Joe Davy, Laura Xiong, Ed Szendrey and Rebecca Sommer.
Sommer, a German, recently showed her documentary on the plight of the jungle Hmong – “Hunted Like Animals” – in New York. She had initially planned to screen the film in the UN building itself, “but Vietnamese officials stopped that”, she said.
Early last month, the UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) sent a senior official to Bangkok and Vientiane to stop the forced repatriation of 155 Hmong at Nong Khai Immigration Detention Centre, all of whom are listed as “people of concern” and believed to be at genuine risk of persecution or even death, if returned. That group remains, in a pathetic state of limbo, but the two governments have virtually thumbed their noses at the UN by sending back many similar groups.
Indeed, Reuters reported recently that Thai officials have ordered UNHCR staff in Bangkok to stop processing refugee applications because of the large number of Hmong and North Korean seeking refuge here.
Hundreds of people with serious claims to refugee status have crossed into Thailand this year but none have been listed since late last year.
At least two large groups of Hmong with serious claims to refugee status (strong links to groups that have survived in the Lao jungles) have been forcibly deported in recent weeks. And a third group of 45 people is now crammed in Lom Sak police station awaiting the same dismal fate. This group allegedly includes survivors and relatives of 26 people killed in a notorious massacre near Vang Vieng on April 6 last year. (Photos have been posted at rogerarnold.net by the US photographer taken to the site several months later.)
Perhaps the most unusual aspect of the whole crazy Vang Pao “plot” is that the US government actually opted to prevent this latest alleged scheme going ahead.
Why? Because many in Laos and Thailand suspect Washington has either turned a blind eye to such activities in the 30 years since the Vietnam War – or has actually encouraged efforts to destabilise the tiny Asian regime and its socialist leaders, many of whom are ex-military and seen as bitter ideological foes.
French journalist Cyril Payen is one of about eight Western journalists and photographers who have sneaked into the military zones in Laos in recent years. He has just published a book, “Laos, the Forgotten War”, which details one of several raids into Laos in the 1980s or 1990s by foreign mercenaries allegedly backed by Hmong exiles abroad, and even the Thai military.
Payen said his interest in Laos grew after he met two French mercenaries on the Thai-Burma border after the fall of Manerplaw in 1995.
“They told me about the Hmong. They said they undertook a security mission in 1989 allegedly organised by [a high-ranking Thai military official], to prove there were some resistance groups still existing. They went with a group of overseas Hmong, crossed the Mekong, and made a six-month trip to Phu Bia, a huge mountain where rebels were based. They lost about 200 men – mostly Hmong from America, who were killed by the Vietnamese. But they found 4,000 to 5,000 people – Hmong. The group included kids who were victims of chemical weapons.
“They [the mercenaries] said they later made a film and wrote a book about this, but nobody cared. They had gone later to join the Karen [fighting the Burmese] but were crying when they told me about the Hmong they met years before.”
However, not many realise current Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont, a former Army chief, but one regarded as having a far greater grasp of moral issues than the military official Payen spoke of, is fast gaining a bad reputation because of his regime’s treatment of the Hmong. Some have argued that the Surayud government has agreed to summarily deport all Hmong because it needs help from Vientiane, as the Council for National Security fears the “former power” or Thai Rak Thai heavyweights may seek to use Laos to funnel weapons or mercenaries, or simply large bundles of Thai baht to buy the next election.
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Yes thanks Jai Dee - good to see some straight-up coverage without the crap.
You know the Nation should be ashamed of its coverage on this issue, the Coup, and its pro-PAD-anti-Thaksin rantings and ravings.
I used to think they were a better paper than the Bangkok Post. Now I think they are just a mouthpiece for the wealthy Thai Hi-So and Chinese-Thai Establishments (who's powerful rich families lost their 'influential' priviledges during the Thaksin period).
The Nation should appologize and fire the whole editorial board.
In regard to above remark, I think Thaigene needs to look a little deeper. In my view, The Nation has been hit harder by the Thaksin regime, in that it found itself a couple of years ago with a new major shareholder that initially looked "toxic" - 16% of shares owned by the Jungrungreankit family - sister-in-law of the former transport minister and Thai Rak Thai heavyweight Suriya. Rumours at the time were that this shareholding was much higher (30 percent), so I don't know if it was sold down or that info was incorrect. Thing is, bosses of NMG had to prepare for the possible addition of board members who may want to interfere strong in editorial policy.. make their papers less anti-govt. Their response was to set up separate company units for each entity (The Nation, Kom Chad Leuk, Krungthep Turakit, Nation TV, etc). While that may have helped hinder any editorial "interference", it also exposed the divisions of the group that were losing money, ie. Nation TV and the Nation itself. So that latter two divisions have suffered heavy workforce cuts because of demands by this shareholder for an end to operating losses. That decimated the Nation TV workforce and cut deeply into the Nation's foreign editorial staff (who were paid quite well by local standards, although poorly when compared to Western journalists or subeditors anywhere else - except the Post).
So The Nation has had its staff gutted and lost some quality foreign subs; the capacity of the paper to maintain its former standard has been badly eroded. It lost its sports chief Alan Parkhouse, subs chief Chris Burslem, plus a number of others. These two alone were very experienced journos and you cannot lose people of such quality without taking a dip.
However, another factor was cutting back on circulation (and subsequent newspaper returns), which has eroded its advertising, as the Post is obviously printing more. With more ads, it has more pages and more news. Simple as that. It's still a sleepy paper that tends to follow the Nation's lead but you often get more stories, cos it has slightly more pages.
As a fan of The Nation, I'm hoping they'll bounce back; that someone of calibre will buy the Jungungreankit stake (which the family said last Saturday it wants to sell) and can help them run the firm in a more professional way, which will help them pay for more staff and produce a better paper. There are huge areas of potential that are badly neglected - such as news on expats, crime, regional reporting. And surely, someone could do a better job re circulation. The apper has got a mindset that it can partly exist on the Internet, but for me, you still need to have a solid core of sites throughout Bangkok and regional centres, where you can buy the paper. And how many times have we tried to get this paper and have not been able to? I've always found it ludicriously hard to find. So surely the paper's circulation department needs someone to put a cracker under it.
Anyway, that's some of the reasons the paper's quality has dipped in recent times. It probably also needs an editorial who is prepared to cut columns written by people such as Sophon Ongara, which aren't good enough - like a broken record. And to boost it's coverage of news outside Bangkok politics. It currently has a young editor (Tulsathit Taptim), who doesn't have a great deal of interest in crime, expat or regional affairs, and that isn't good for the paper he's overseeing. Nice man, but better as chief reporter. He and his senior colleagues such as Thanong Khantong, and Veena, the features editor, are simply over-worked. It's impossible to maintain standards under those conditions.
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Philip is originally a Pom, but we try to overlook such things. Much as you would a club foot. Think he got to Perth in Western Australia when he was about 10 or 12. Gawky thin kid, but very feisty.
He started on Sunday Times in Perth in the early or mid 80s. His dad ran the Festival of Perth for nearly 20 years - that may have given him the partly "arty" feel to his pics. He's a black and white man; Leica fanatic - wide angles - which may have meant he got closer to that motorcycle trolley with the body on it, perhaps (not sure). The Thais are strictly big zoom lenses down in the South - probably cos of incidents like this - that was a comment by Don Pathan at the Nation, who was with Philip and his colleague Andrew Marshall the day before.
Philip is 42 but has already racked up an impressive collection of work - rebels in East Timor ('98), tribal clashes in Borneo (Dayaks vs Madurese, 99), Cambodia civil war (90s), Thai Burma border (Shan rebels), strife in Nepal a year or two ago, tsunami (Phuket and Aceh).. never made a big wad of money but has backed his judgement strongly many many times. Gutsy. He's eccentric - big pet snake called "Yan Khria" and god know what else - but very loyal to friends. Direct; so you know right where he stands. There's a whole set of British and Aussie photogs here who are into the black and white prints, and he's probably the best of them. A lot of his success just comes from having had a good grounding on papers in Perth and Sydney, I think.. literally doing lotsa jobs. Trying hard to get better pics.
If you've seen his exhibitions they have more than a touch of Peter Beard - who was a celebrated photographer (Yank or Pom I can't recall) who was based in Africa a number of years. Beard used to scribble notes around the edges of his photos, same as Philip does. So it got that quirk from him, you could suggest.
Phil's second wife, Agnes Dhurbeys (not sure spelling), is now becoming a bit of a photog herself - won a decent award herself recently. So he's obviously been a big influence on her too.
Phil's done a book on the ambulance services here Por Teck Tung (?) - "Cars That Ate Bangkok"; which has some amazing shots - eg, person's hand ripped off in a crash and caught on the bonnet of a car. He's a freak for guns, monks and dogs - Khmer Rouge soldiers on trains; the Phuket vegetarian festival - crazed people sticking ludicrous objects through their cheeks; his shots of the Fretlin rebels are like pinup posters (some great stuff); plus there is a bizarre one of a man holding up a human leg - hacked off by a machete by the look of it - and chewing on it with half a grin. Another a human head on a roadblock. And a third shows a family huddled in shock in the back of a truck being ferried out of a danger zone by Indonesian troops. Wild stuff, sort of out on the frontier.
I have one on my wall of the several hundred Hmong "rebels", in the back blocks of Laos, down on their knees crying- early 2003. A moment of history almost.
Amazing. In fact, that pic - which won him a world press award should be in a museum - back in Canberra, it is that good. He's on his way to fame, and good luck to him.
The world needs his stuff. God it would be dull without it.
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3.40pm Friday - latest news is that frantic phone calls by activists supporting the Hmong - to western embassies in Bangkok and international news agencies - this morning may have succeeded in getting the deportation canned.
It did not save the 30 refugees who were deported from Lom Sak police station yesterday, of course. Those people reportedly had equal right to remain and try to find a better life given they were mainly "jungle Hmong" with genuine claims as refugees also (allegedly part of Moua Toua Ter and Blia Shoua Her's groups).
Meanwhile, the US govt has reported further incidents of fighting in northern Laos. A govt website notice posted today warns Americans not to travel overland between Vang Vieng and Luang Prabang, I think.
I hope Thailand can move the 155 Hmong out of Nong Khai IDC to somewhere further away from the border - to a facility less cramped. The UNHCR said they have about 90 kids in just a couple of big rooms at present. But the big thing is Vientiane seems preoccupied about snatching them back while they are just across the river. If Thailand doesn't have the moral strength to allow them to go to third countries at present, they must move them from the border. The stress those poor buggers go through on days like today must be appalling.
It's times like this you really wonder about the Thais and their lack of thought or apparent care for their neighbours.
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The Lao and Thai governments' latest act of bastardy is going on right now (9.20m) - several trucks and a team of Lao officials have arrived at Nong Khai Immigration Detention Centre.
It looks like they are set to forcibly deport the 155 Hmong who have been there for the past few months.
The trucks sent to transport the Hmong across to Vientiane have come despite repeated expressions of concern about the well-being of these people, all of whom are registered as 'people of concern' by the UN High Commissoner for Refugees.
Some 30 refugees - not illegal immigrants but jungle Hmong from groups headed by well-known jungle leaders Blia Shoua her and Moua Toua Ter - were allegedly sent back from Lom Sak police station late on Thursday (yesterday).
Senior UNHCR officials have said the Hmong at Nong Khai IDC are at risk of persecution and possibly even being killed (correct) because of recent conflicts with the Lao and Vietnamese military.
Two of the 155 are jungle Hmong leaders - Blia Shoua Her and Chong Lee Lor - who have a lot of information about alleged massacres in laos, including the slaughter of 26 mainly women and children near Vang Vieng on April 6 last year.
Reporters, including TV people, and Hmong activists from the US are flying to Nong Khai ASAP to try to record or even stop the deportation.
The scene could be similar to Jan 26 and the drama expressed earlier in this thread.
For me, I just want to know: Why does the Thai government allow this to happen?
If any of the 155 take their own lives today, Bangkok will have their blood on its conscience, if they know what such a thing is..
Lao officials reportedly there now for what looks like a long planned operation. Indeed, one that has been flagged on public radio in Laos.
Urgent appeals going out to press and Western embassies right now.
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Good to see CNN getting into this issue, as it desperately needs international attention.
However, their report is outdated a little. It mentions the group of 27 Hmong teenagers snatched just prior to Christmas 2005, that there's been no word on them.
But, after much press behind the scenes and publicly, Laos finally came out in March, I think, and said 'hey, guess what, we've found the 21 girls'.
They held a press conference last month to parade this poor kids in front of the media - on the day before Songkran, when foreign media and diplomats were not aware, I believe.
These girls - mostly young teenagers - had been imprisoned for about 15 months, according to some US Hmong sources. But the Lao govt tried to make it look like they had just found them. And, they refused to allow them to rejoin their parents in Phetchabun. Lao spokesman Mr Yong said - if the families wanted to reunited with their children, the parents have to come back. These girls were handed over to relatives, in Vientiane or other places.
Some people watching this disgusting behaviour have likened it to the government holding these girls as hostages.
Meanwhile, there has been no word on the five boys and the female pastor who disappeared with them.
There have been sporadic reports that some of the boys and girls died. The Fact Finding Commission posted a report a month or two back saying two girls had died, but it appears that one of the two they named is still alive.
On top of all this, the UNHCR sent a high level officer here two weeks ago to check on the Hmong at Nong Khai, plus the Burma camps. Things on the Burma side are reportedly going ok, but there are major concerns re the Hmong at Nong Khai.
The UNHCR's assistant high commissioner for protection, Erika Feller, told a press conference at the FCCT they would like to see the Hmong resettled abroad, as many are listed as "persons of concern".
If that could not happen straight away, they want Thailand to move the Hmong from the cramped facilities at Nong Khai IDC away from the border - and the obvious temptation for Laos to "nip across" and snatch them back.
Ms Feller had talks with both Vientiane and Thailand. However the Lao side appear to now be distorting what occurred during these talks. A senior government member has reported claimed that UNHCR agreed that the 155 at Nong Khai were only "illegal immigrants" - not refugees.
However, if one looks at the UNHCR website, country page for Thailand, it is very obvious, that is hogwash.
Why does Vientiane want these Hmong back so bad?
Hmong groups in the US say it's because the group includes two jungle leaders who could prove a PR nightmare for the Laos if Western media got to them (after being resettled). This was reported in the Nation on May 5.. in the bottom half of the following story.
UN welcomes moves to resettle Burmese refugees
Jim Pollard
The Nation (5-5-07, p4)
Senior United Nations officials have welcomed Thai government moves to allow Burmese refugees to be resettled abroad.
Some 8,700 Burmese refugees have been moved to third countries over the past year and a half, and a further 10,000 are expected to depart this year, according to Erika Feller, the assistant UN High Commissioner for Refugees.
Ms Feller, who spoke at a press conference at the Foreign Correspondents Club in Bangkok late on Thursday, said she was “very pleased to see the change in atmosphere at Tham Hin” camp in Kanchanaburi.
The camp was crowded and “was a very depressed place when I toured there two years ago, but it’s changed remarkably”, she told journalists.
“Resettlement has been a major factor in that regard - it has created more space and given people expectancy,” she said.
A downside to the resettlement program was that the camps had lost a lot of teachers and medics, but work was being done to replace those service providers, Ms Feller said.
The assistant commissioner said more than 80,000 Burmese refugees out of the 140,000 or so in camps along the border had been given identity cards recently, and this was also “very positive”.
She urged Thai authorities to pursue plans for the refugees to be able to work in the immediate vicinity of their camps, so they can develop livelihood opportunities and employment skills.
# Ms Feller said she had spoken with Thai and Lao authorities about the 155 Hmong refugees at Nong Khai detention centre.
She said UNHCR was concerned because most of the refugees - about 90 of them - were young children and the facility was “very cramped” and there was little privacy.
“We explored the possibility perhaps to move them away from Nong Khai to a more receptive environment - better for children.”
Ms Feller and UNHCR country representative Hasim Utkan both said the 155 Hmong should be resettled abroad, as many of those at Nong Khai were registered “people of concern” who should not be forcibly returned.
However, she admitted that Vientiane would prefer the Hmong at Nong Khai be “returned home”.
Thai officials are due to discuss the matter with their Lao counterparts in a few weeks time when a bilateral border committee is due to meet.
A move to deport the Hmong at Nong Khai IDC in late January provoked a near riot at the detention centre, with Hmong men barracking themselves inside and threatening to commit mass suicide.
Hmong groups in the US say Vientiane is determined to deport the 155, because it includes two prominent leaders of jungle Hmong groups who have extensive knowledge of massacres and the allegedly brutal campaign to quell the last pockets of Hmong “resistance” in central northern Laos.
Ms Feller said Vientiane feared that if the Hmong were resettled it would create a precedent and a “pull factor” effect encouraging more refugees.
But she was hopeful that a positive humanitarian solution could be found.
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The interesting thing one Hmong advocate from the US has claimed that Laos has told Bangkok it will not take any of the Phetchabun Hmong back (7000-8000 people) if Thailand allows teh 155 at Nong Khai to be resettled abroad. That alleged threat has alleged frozen the entire processing of refugees in Thailand.
Reuters carried a report two days ago that UNHCR's operations were "in limbo" because of the situation in regard to Hmong and North Korean refugees.
The big question for some foreign observers watching this fiasco is - when is Thailand going to stand up on its own two feet and do the right thing - instead of allowing itself to be bullied by a regime that many regard as little better than Rangoon.
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Hi,
I think you'll find this update re McLeod losing his appeal is wrong. There was a mix-up with court reporters yesterday and some confusing info emerged. I just spoke to someone who checked with the court and have been told the appeal is still being assessed - so there is still hope McLeod can get some years lopped off his sentence.
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Interesting issue this. And it may have had a controversial start - one of the strong rumors re Thaksin acquiring this satellite licence is that he gave a large backhander to General Sunthorn, one of the military chiefs when the NPKC took power briefly in 1991-92. The matter came up after Thaksin became PM because Sunthorn's mia noi sued to get a share of his estate, which turned out to be a whopping Bt1.4 billion or thereabouts. And everyone suddenly thought, well, where did he get all that dough? The details might be slightly out - apologies. But I can recall The Nation running a wonderful page-one pic of Thaks and Pojie sitting on the carpet/floor in front of Gen Sunthorn (taken in early 90s) when this lawsuit or legal squabble emerged over the general's surprisingly large estate.. a short time after Thaksin became PM.
And look at how Thaks got control of the pay-TV firm he set up with Seattle businessman William Monson in the late 80s.. Monson arrested by police (then under control of Thaks' buddy Chalerm Yoobamrung, who was police minister, I think) .. on dodgy fraud charge.. the Thai businessman who introduced Thaks to Monson claimed last year that firm - which went on to become UBC - was how Thaks made his first billion baht. Very profitable.
You wonder if a case couldn't be made out of this in which you would argue that Thaks and his brother-in-law - Justice Minister for much of his time in office - improperly kept Monson's cases out of the court, until they were deemed to have expired because of the statue of limitations (12 years?).
Anyway, Thaks has interesting skeletons in his closet. The stuff that may have the potential to really hit him is the War on Drugs killings - that conjures up images of him fighting extradition cases abroad. Senator Kraisak alluded - at launch of the very good Chris Baker biog of Thaksin at the FCCT a couple of years ago - to the Shinawatra family's business dealings in timber and opium. He tempered his remarks by saying the opium trade was almost legit many years back, but he said that's how people in the North often claimed the family made its money. Kraisak's remarks were not reported at the time, allegedy cos it was too hot to be published - given Thaksin was firmly in charge then. But it would be interesting if a serious doco maker from abroad got into that issue because there is an awful lot of meat on that bone, you might say. The details re some killings in North is v disturbing.
Apologies for getting off topic.
But congrats to some posters for some very interesting info re Thaksin killing off the military's proposal for its own satellite. Fascinating.
His saga has a long time to run.
Mention of the Marcos and Suharto clan's ill-gotten wealth is also depressing. To see Tommy Suharto allowed out of jail after just five years for ordering a judge to be wacked is just plain shameful. I hope he had to pay a lot for that. Although reports from Jakarta are few years back were that Tommy's jail suite hosted the best parties in the capital, so you suspect not. However bad the justice system seems here at times (Duang getting off killing the cop, etc), you realise it's only half as bad as Indon, Burma, Phnom Penh, Laos..
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Been some speculation as to whether Blake actually has been sent to the US. The other two allegedly went but a prisons activist has claimed Blake (Garnett) still here in Bkk.
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Most comments here appear to have gone against General Sonthi, which seems a tad surprising. Most people miffed at his choice of words, plus outspokenness.
However I think his aim was simply to spell out very clearly to Singapore how Bangkok expects the Shin mess to be resolved.
It looks like the problem the two countries have is Singapore has shown little willingness to give up the goodies it got in a very very dodgy deal.
That may be the root cause of Sonthi's remarks yesterday.
The coup leader and interim government have had their hands full running the country and working how to neuter the former PM, setting up probes into a mass of corruption, plus quantifying and trying to work out how to repair the staggering fiasco that is the new airport.
But Sonthi and Surayud could have done a better job, perhaps, on clarifying the situtation re the Shin deal - set up an inquiry panel to say that, sorry, it's not in Thai interests to sell the sole satellite concession, the only independent TV station, and such a big share of the biggest mobile phone company. Forget AirAsia, for the moment, as it doesn't have the significance of the other three big firms.
I think the Shin assets are hanging in limbo cos it's due to be heard by a court. I think an academic has challenged the right for one or two of these concessions to be sold abroad.
The problem for Sonthi/Surayud is how to overturn approval - by the Finance Ministry I presume - of a dodgy deal by a corrupt government or PM.
The problem for Singapore is they paid 2 billion USD for four companies - three of which the new government doesn't want to sell total control of.
The deal is touchy cos the Singaporean PM's wife is the boss of Temasek and may be made to look silly for several reasons:
1/ lacking ethics for doing the deal in the first place (on the other hand they reportedly do plenty of ethically unsound biz with Burma);
2/ not being aware that such a high-profile takeover would spark such a massive public outcry in Thailand (partly cos Toxin was so greedy he didn't even want to pay tax);
3/ damaging bilateral relations with a key ally;
4/ losing lotsa dough (value of the four firms has plunged by at least half).
Australian defence analyst Des Ball got into this debate a month ago when he said he was staggered that the Shin Corp deal had been allowed to go through - as it gave the Singaporeans much easier access to Thailand's military communications.
He also said Singapore had an appalling record of eavesdropping on friendly allies. He gave examples of this dating back to the 90s. An American security expert I know agreed 100 per cent; he said Singapore was "shameless" in its eavesdropping.
Talk to diplomats who have been stationed there- one Canadian said they were warned that their homes, cars and mobiles were all very probably bugged. When he had some hot info to tell his wife - he put the stereo on and ushered her to the balcony where he would whisper it into her ear.
Ball said launching a new satellite would cost at least a quarter of a billion USD. So it's a big problem for Thailand, which many experts and members of the public have already agreed.
Thailand has basically made it very plain; it wants control of the satellite - and both Singapore and perhaps even judges hearing a case dealing with this matter here should take note.
We should also note that Surayud said publicly last month that Thailand wanted to negotiate AND may have to buy back some of the shares.
Given all this, and the fact Singapore has defence cooperation deals to train its pilots here, etc, it's a wonder that the city-state hasn't got on the front foot and tried to cool things by sending a signal that - ok, you can have the satellite back, but we want AIS, and a fair price for iTV... something like that.
One could suggest that Singapore has been biding its time, perhaps wondering whether Toxin could stage a comeback and become a force behind the scenes in a new government - elected at the end of this year or early next year.
However, for me, every day that Thaks is gone his power ebbs. Not only is he actively being targeted on a dozen or two dozen different fronts, but there is a very strong feeling against him in a large section of the middle and upper class - half or more of Bangkok, and probably throughout the country.
There are also groups of people who may be prepared to take quite drastic action against him, should he consider any type of return. They range from military to activists, etc. I saw a pic of his wife the other day, surrounded by security. She does that with good reason. If the Shinawatras attempted a comeback - and they obviously have the money to fund, say, a new political alliance, plus the hunger or motivation for such schemes - but doing that would be very risky. Many here say that Thaksin would become target for a hit, as some see that as the only resolution to this whole saga.
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I back Tony's assessment of the former PM. People have said he's emotionally immature, but I think he's psychologically unstable. It's a bit pathetic that Time and co give the guy such a dream run; it makes them look like gooses, I reckon, with little recognition or acknowledgement of what's gone down here.
Tricky person to deal with mind you, cos I reckon he's a pathological liar, as Tony Clifton's logo suggests. As for Thaksin's state of mind, it's hard to say. I suspect he's partly, or largely, driven by guilt or awareness (even if his consicous mind fights that) of the bad things he's done and the trouble he probably knows will eventually arrive on his door.. whether it's a court case for inciting police/army hit squads to gun down drug dealers, or deemed to have given the nod to large-scale corruption at Suvarnabhumi. Some serious stuff has happened, obviously.. eg, police accused of abducting and killing Somchai contacted Thaksin's advisers on the night of the Muslim lawyer disappeared. I'm not saying he ordered that; one rumour is that a tall former officer went a bit far in trying to please his big boss, in that case. But there have been other serious crimes such as the shooting several years back of a Revenue Dept official who claimed to have evidence of ShinSat involvement in avoiding customs duty. That fellow was snipered, I think, in Chiang Mai, after fleeing Bangkok (that case that deserves more media coverage).
Thing is, if he's carrying on like this now, what's he going to do when they finally get him into court - on not just on something like the dodgy land deal (Ratchada) invovling his wife, but something serious?
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Hi, just in reaction to ColPyat.. comment re flood crises..
I take your point; flooding of land in Central region and way it panned out was traumatic for farmers in areas suddenly inundated. That decision appears to have come via HM and Royal Irrigation Dept. I don't know the details to get into that whole issue other than having seen how upset they were at the length of time their fields were flooded; and meagre compensation they received.
My main point in raising that was not so much the quality of the outcome, but more the speed Surayud and co sought to deal with that problem. It's a hard call to make, but I reckon this government attends to issues of the day - be it crises or all sorts, payment of compensation or whatever - quicker than the former. I put that down to them being less corrupt and less delayed by the sorts of strings and complications that comes with being bent.
It's just a general impression; that issues are being dealt with slightly more purely.
As to the competence of the PM and various ministers, it's a mixed bag, probably like before. Surayud appears to be making strides in the far South, where you could say progress is most desperately needed, but he's obviously got little idea about economics. However I think he has a far greater grasp of social justice and the need for fair outcomes. Thaksin was tremendously capable businessman, and the markets, foreign investors, etc, loved that. However he was grossly deficient in these other areas - justice, the environment. After all those five and a half years under Thai Rak Thai where economic growth was held up as seemingly the great goal of this country, I really love seeing the balance restored. Maybe it's gone too much the other way, but for the while it's probably necessary.
For me, a decent social justice system (which includes a much more dynamic broadcast media here, freed from Army control, as well as a far better legal system) means a healthy society, and probably a healthier environment.
I've just read a book called The Weather Makers, by Tim Flannery, the scientist made Australian of the Year a week ago. The warming of the planet and resulting climatic changes will, for me, be the issue of the century. It's very serious and scary - forget Thaksin and the mess he caused, cos it's but he's just a smudge the broader canvas that has a far more disturbing shadow on it. However, if we, the human race, are going to get our act together to effectively counter that looming crisis, we need to get rid of growth-obsessed leaders like Thaksin; and for that matter the scumbags running Burma (you could probably say Laos and Cambodia.. China, the US.. God knows, I have hope the latter two might come to their senses, but you can't be sure).
I'm veering off track now, but that's how I see it. Here we are debating the pros and cons of a prime minister who millions in this country now recognise as a complete dog. Back in my country, Oz, global warming is suddenly the Big Issue like never before - partly perhaps because there is so little else to worry about. Yet, the Land of Smiles has so many immediate concerns, global warming is over yonder hills, and in newspaper terms, yet to get off the World News pages. But I want to know what parts of the coast - and what areas of Bangkok - are gunna go under when the seas rise, as surely they must. And what other effects are there going to be here? Surely, we going to see more Uttaradit-style mudslides - caused by illegal logging - plus bigger storms and greater rates of evaporation; much more dramatic floods and droughts. Forget the new airport, shambles that it is. Water management may very well be the number one thing that Thailand really needs to get on top of.
I'd be happy to see old Square Face six-feet under. He is a very unwelcome distraction from the planet's woes. The clouds on the horizon are far bigger, but Thailand and much of this part of the world seem hopelessly unprepared for what lies ahead. Al Gore needs to come here to promote "his doco" The Inconvenient Truth. It's sobering and something we all need to watch. In it, he says the world will face massive refugee crises - 100 million plus people forced to flee their current home/homelands. Many of them will be Bangladeshis, so there is a fair chance the impact on this part of the world, could be severe. And Bangkok is right on sea level; how soon before this city is the "Venice of the East" again? 40-50 years?
We might have time for a few beers... but the more we're on track to face these things, the better they'll go down.
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"It's close to libelous and it just shows how uneducated and ignorant these military guys are. The Economist is probably one of the most respected AND unbiased sources in the world. "
--Wintermute.
I have to comment on this remark about the Economist. I met their new correspondent a couple of months ago and he's only been here a short time, arriving just prior to the coup. Nice fella but I've gotta say his knowledge of this country was very very basic. I think he was - and still may be - struggling to get a grasp of how things work in rural areas, as do many farang if they don't get out into the bannock. He had an ok education re international economics but my feeling was he was struggling to get a grip of how it fitted here. He had no idea of the scale of vote-buying and so many other important factors.
However, my very strong suspicion is these articles are a direct result of Thaksin's lobbyists - meeting and briefing editorial writers of these international magazines back in the US and UK. You can only put those sorts of arguments to people who don't really know the scene here, I think.
The Nation has a column by Thanong Khantong today - Overdrive - rebutting the magazines' garbage and I'd back his assessment of things here 100 to one against The Economist particularly and these magazines in general.
A Canadian journalist I know said last night the Economist has hardly ever broken a major story in its life - the magazine is known as a re-write job made to look like a pretty package. It can have some good info sometimes, but other stuff is just right-wing crap wide of the mark.
But I also agree with the comment made above that the CNS and Thaksin are playing for different audiences. Thaksin is playing for the international audience, which has no idea what's going on here.
What maybe more interesting is, I reckon momentum has stepped up against Thaksin - he's suddenly facing quite aggressive action against him and his cronies across a range of fronts. Another correspondent, an Aussie, said every day he is not here his web of power and influence diminishes, and it's becoming just a bit more noticeable now. The CNS and interim governments, whatever their faults, are sticking to their guns, and gradually clawing back all the beachheads that were causing problems - putting Gen Saprang or others in on the AOT board, the TOT board, etc - really getting serious about ferreting out corruption, than pretending to (because they're part of the problem). They've also got a far better idea how clever Thaks was in that his ploys were well-hidden in that his crimes were often policy corruption (eg the govt moves to change the way they taxed the telecom firms in 2001, I think - that saved AIS tens of billions of baht).
I think people underestimate the interim government cos they're weak on the PR and marketing side. But I strongly believe they are running this country far better than the previous regime; they react far quicker to problems that the last regime (ie, note quick reaction to flood crisis late last year) and they're not covering up important social issues that need to be revealed (eg, pollution crisis relating to Map Ta Phut, the impact of Singapore's takeover of Shin on military intelligence, etc).
The weak area, as we all know, is a series of apparent economic stuff-ups relating to capital controls and re-writing the foreign business laws. But I think other things lie underneath this - such as Thaks and his old cohorts having people ramp up the baht, which could have created a real nightmare for exporters and the economy. The re-write of the foreign biz law was a toughening or clarifying of policy that foreign investors were never going to like. But, if you step back, it was a fair thing for the Thais to do - cut the elastic regulations that allowed both sides to abuse the law. I think it related to the fear of Thaksin and his minions returning to power (winning the next election), and the Shin takeover, which is looking more and more like a nightmare for Singapore (makes you really wonder if the city-state did pay that Malaysian ref for the appalling decision he made favouring the Temasek team on Wed night). Thing is, on both those economic matters, the interim government is starting to loosen up and make things better. I've been saddened by Pridiyathorn's performance, cos I thought he would have been a backbone for this government, but you get the impression he lacked finesse and deeper knowledge how some of their financial moves would go down. On the other hand, I still believe there are deeper concerns relating to their opponents dirty tricks even that they haven't fully spelt out.
At present, I reckon the longer the Surayud government holds power, the better it is for Thailand - given the sort of crappy political trash that is lining up to govern again. They just need a breathing space to repair the clapped out vehicle that is Thailand - to sideline the political leeches such as the Newins and Chavalits and Somsaks that eat up and divert the national budget and prevent the car (the country) from upgrading, or learning how to be efficient, competitive and honest.
Generals Sonthi and Surayud faced very tough tasks, and I don't think you can seriously fault them for their efforts so far. I just reckon this country is so much safer with decent well-intentioned leaders than a man who I class as virtual organised crime. When you look at the amount of money they frittered away on all sorts of ill-considered projects, it's staggering. The diesel subsidy - US$2 billion. The rice subsidy for farmers was virtually the same amount. It's like driving a crappy old car at twice the speed it should; and tossing cash out at anyone you pass. Those are huge amounts of money for a nation this size.
It may be a lean year, but this country is getting back into shape, and frankly, I love it - because there is so much that needs to be faced and repaired and dealt with. It's facing it's problems and trying to deal with them. Only when you have a government that is honest and decent are you going to get proper outcomes on basic injustices such as lack of citizenship for hilltribe people who have lived here for their entire lives; fair treatment for labourers from neighbouring countries.. all sorts of others normally crushed by the appalling standards that have been endemic here.
If the wealthy foreigners and high-class Thais are moaning (as you see regularly on the business pages), tough luck. Think about the poor buggers at the end of the food chain. They are the ones who most need this country to grasp standards closer to the modern world, particularly issues relating to justice. The current government is poised to reform the police, and I hope to God they can do that effectively, because it is one of the most vital tasks they face. Kowit Watana, the national police chief, is gone for all money; he seems such a useless lump of muck from the last regime. On the other hand, the reforms Surayud and co are putting in are so far-reaching, they have had to put up with this Thaksin appointee, to keep the police on side and make it look like the Army is not totally sitting on their face. If Thailand had had an effective police force, Thaksin would never have got half the distance he did in running this country into the ground. No sooner have they given the Bangkok bombs inquiry to the revamped DSI and you have news of genuine suspects (not scapegoats).
Can you ever imagine an environmental scandal such as Map Ta Phut being revealed during Thaksin's time? Like his Chinese relatives to our north, he never paid an inkling to the well-being of the land. Thailand was becoming a garbage tip -where the poor are left to foot hospital bills for living near outrageous pollution. I can't help despising the heads of PTT and other big groups that keep looking to the next horizon and bigger and better turnovers and balance sheets, rather than walking out the backdoor and asking 'what sort of muck is going out of our pipe into the creek there?'
Forgive the long sermon.
It will take them a while longer to turn the car right around and for their actions to bear fruit, but I'm very much with them for now.
Anyway, pardon my
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The drama at Nong Khai has not ended. Latest reports from Hmong advocates in the US are that the Hmong are still barricaded in their cells and have not eaten for about two days. Electricity and water has been cut off and the refugees are reportedly very weak. The Thai officials are demanding access and have claimed they must search the cells because of reports the refugees have bombs and weapons. Their contacts abroad are seriously concerned that this is a ploy to save face and plant some illegal substance or items on them .. it follows allegedly unsubstantiated reports last week (Radio Free Asia, I believe but not certain) that up to 1000 of the Hmong at the Huay Nam Khao were involved in drug dealing. So it sounds like more dirty tricks on the local officials here.
Urgent appeals have been sent out to Westn embassies and the UNHCR for observers to be present while the cells are searched, but there seems little chance of that happening, sadly. If it was allowed it might resolve this stand-off very promptly.
Thailand looking bad again, partly by association with the grubby regime across the river.
Little wonder now that the Hmong at Nong Khai IDC are asking why the Thais are treating them like animals.
I truly hope the UNHCR can get some sense into the Thai officials because they are looking like a law unto themselves. All this is happening despite a promise by the prime minister (Surayud) that no Hmong will be forcibly returned.
He needs to get involved again and to remove the imbeciles treating the Hmong this way.
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The drama isn't over sadly. The Thai immigration officials at Nong Khai appear to have decided to punish the Hmong for refusing to go back to persecution and possible death.. by denying them food and proper medical attention today (Wed).
The following report is from Laura Xiong, a Hmong advocate in the US who has been in touch with her fellow Hmong at Nong Khai for several weeks:
1pm Bangkok time:
We have been informed that the children are no longer able to cry due to starvation. The adult are getting weaker and weaker and everyone is dehyrated. It is 12:00 PM (1:00 PM local time in Thailand) and the detainees are still having nothing to eat. The foods are still sitting at the middle of the prison cell that set by the Thai Police.
The detainees attempted to snatch the food for the children, but the police officer jumped in to take away the wires used for snatching the food. He said that they do not deserve to eat the food. He continues to threaten the group with deportation.
(Western photographer, name deleted) is currently in the premise monitoring. He reports that the thai police officer is blocking the door prevent reporters from gaining access to the jail cells.
The detainees are begging the UN and the international communities to bring in food and water. They have not eaten for more than 28 hours and everybody is dying!
Laura
Earlier note:
Yesterday the Thai Police brought Tong Her back from the Hospital with handcuff. In addition to that, his face surgery seem critical. The surgery seems to be a major work done, but no medication was prescribed. He is currently tide up a bundle with the other two patients and leaving out side of the jail cells. Tong Her is in critical condition. Please help to provide medical treatment for him as soon as possible.
It has been reported that the Thai police brought in food to the women and children, but forbidden the men from getting anything. The foods are being set right in the middle of the two jail cells, allowing the men to watch. The guards told them that they will not get anything to eat until they die.
The water supply has been turned off and the toilet is getting nasty.
If man cannot help this group, is there a God that can? God lives in each everyone of you that list on this email, and please do something about it. Tong Her should be transfered to a hospital where quality medical treatment is available. Base on the information I received, instead of providing medical treatment to cure his wound, the medical team deteriorating the injury. Now he is in serious condition. Please help.
Laura
The detainees informed me that the chief police in charge is bringing in a box of handcuffs and metal chains to the door. He threatens to handcuff the ones that lead the resistance. He also cut off the electricity and disallow them to drink or eat.
During the attack, the Lao police forces used some kind of electrify light that knock down the individuals when pointing at them. In addition to the electrify light, the police used intoxicated gas on them. Now the chief police in charge threatens to starve the group and forbid them from drinking any water. They have not eaten or drank since this morning.
Why using intoxicated gas, electrify and starvation as weapons to torture the victims? They are not criminals and do not deserve to be degrade treatment or torture such as this.
Two women have been severely beatened earlier when they could not convince their husbands to cooperate with the Lao PDR Officials. Now one woman is in the state of suicidal attempt. Please save these helpless victims. They are dying.
Laura
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The "dying" is perhaps a bit strong, but one perhaps needs to bear in mind this woman's emotional attachment to her kin.
Meanwhile, credit for where it is due..
The Bangkok Post reported today that Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont was the one who pulled the pin on this ugly little plan to deport the Hmong - while they were being interviewed by the UNHCR and Western embassy officials for resettlement.
Perhaps the good Prime Minister - or someone with some sense of compassion and a realisation of what this continuing saga does for Thailand's international standing -at the Foreign Ministry, perhaps - needs to ring those pathetic officials out at Nong Khai IDC and tell them to pull their heads in.
More than half of these refugees are women and children.
And the man mentioned above requiring medical attention (Tong Her) has a gaping bullet wound in the middle of his face. Check www.rogerarnold.net for pics of this sad young fellow. If ever there was proof of what jungle Hmong go through in the wilds of Laos, it's this young man's face.
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There may be a God after all. Latest reports (5pm Bkk) are that the Hmong men's desperate threats to kill themselves - while the cells where they were barricaded were tear-gassed - may have convinced the Thai authorities to halt the deportation.
It sounds like this about-turn was helped by the sudden arrival of officials from several Western nations (and possibly the UNHCR) and a couple of Western photographers who refused to leave and took photos of all the officials involved in this entire sordid deal - allegedly at least 20 officials from Laos, including some quite senior, plus the Nong Khai governor, etc. One of those photographers flew up from Bangkok, so his performance was gutsy to say the least.
I'm told Thailand and Laos had signed an agreement to return these 153, despite allowing other countries to interview them.
Part of the problem for the Thais was at least two of the women were allegedly beaten and may have had obvious bruises, bleeding - as would the men, who may have been groggy and bloody after a violent stand-off in the cells. Thing is, some of these people have nothing to lose - going back may well be a death sentence and they know it. If you look up the website of Roger Arnold, US photog, you may see pics of Blia Shoua Her, at the scene of the Vang Vieng massacre (by the graves, including one of his son - the only male among the 26 dead - rest were women and children ambushed while foraging for food - most allegedly shot in the back). In fact, Arnold's and the Fact Finding Commission website have pics of the bodies of those killed on April 6.
The US ambassador to Laos made a big deal about that incident, as people may recall.
The Thai authorities who gave this scummy operation the go-ahead should be hung out to dry.
Suggestions as to who may have been responsible include Suwat Tumrongsrisakul, head of Immigration Police (and usually a happy figure - seen in many pics when they deported John Mark Karr, who confessed to the JonBenet killing).
Other nominees include General Winai, now a CNS deputy. I must stress that that's only speculation, but it's accepted among Western embassies that the Thai government is split about the return of these 153.
Allegedly the Foreign ministry is against it - cos they know what bad publicity it is, but some hardline generals are all for it.
Big question is whether this ugly scene is going to be repeated tomorrow or another day soon.
Just hope the UNHCR gets off their well-paid asses and gets these people overseas. Many of them have already been interviewed by Western nations.
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Apologies, Jai Dee, I wasn't sure that we were able to start new topics ourselves.
If you care to copy my two comments and put them on a separate topic entry - i'd be more than happy. I think it's a very serious matter, as you may appreciate.
I've had the same sick feeling in my gut as when I heard Duangchalerm got off for shooting the police officer in the Twenty Pub.
Thailand Deports Hmongs Back To Laos
in Thailand News
Posted
Reports from Hmong in the US say the 163 who fled to Thailand who were forcibly returned to Laos recently have been resettled at a site off Route 13 (the main highway north).. not far from areas where they say there have been "rebel" attacks.
Or that is what the Lao authorities are saying.
The information minister reportedly placed the following post on a chat site on Saturday:
thanouxay View profile
More options Jun 23, 11:23 am
Newsgroups: soc.culture.laos, soc.culture.hmong, soc.culture.thai
From: thanouxay <[email protected]>
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 10:23:44 -0700
Local: Sat, Jun 23 2007 11:23 am
Subject: Re: New Hmong Settlement
Reply | Reply to author | Forward | Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this author
Cwjmen and all,
"As I told you that a mini-irrigation dam located about half a Kilometre from the new village has been completed. Yes this is where, the kids will love to swim and fish while the adult can find water for
gardening.
The old Ponglak village which is about two kilometres from the settlement has a dispensary where sick people can be treated and Muang Med and Kasy where there are district hospital are about
25 kilometres range.
"Yes, they will be free like horses therefore the local authorities estimated that they (the new settlelers) will move within 20 kilometres radius along the valley and uphill. They are so free to the
extend that among the newly rapatriated from Thailand in the group of 31 and 160, there are about ten families who were resettled in 2006 in Muang Med. They paid about 10 silver bars to traffickers
to bring them to Thailand with the hope to go to third country and ended up in the same area again and once again, the burden is on the shoulder of the Government.
"Sok dee."
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# Photos have also been posted of this new settlement at:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture...907cf3072ae960f
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dkj-hmong
The interesting thing is how Vientiane is using the Net to try to placate Hmong in the US, who, like many observers in Thailand, seem convinced that their fellow Hmong are being persecuted.
Why doesn't Vientiane just let diplomats and independent international observers inspect these sites and speak to those being resettled there (without the presence of government officials to intimidate them, as happened when the 21 "missing" Hmong girls were unveiled in mid-April)? It makes one think the government is being tricky and attempting to cover its tracks in various ways ..
Meanwhile, Amnesty International has voiced concern re Thailand's forced retrun of Hmong seeking asylum..
AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL
Public Statement
AI Index: ASA 39/009/2007 (Public)
News Service No: 121
26 June 2007
Thailand: Forcible returns of Lao Hmong must end
Amnesty International is deeply concerned by the unlawful and forcible return from Thailand to Laos of 163 Lao Hmong individuals, who had not been able to claim asylum, on Saturday 9 June 2007. The organization calls on the Thai authorities to immediately halt any returns of asylum seekers who have not yet had access to a fair and satisfactory asylum determination procedure. Amnesty International is particularly concerned that those returned are at risk of torture, arbitrary and indefinite detention and other serious human rights violations in Laos. This serious gap in protection must come to an end.
The group of 163 were reportedly transported in four police trucks at around 6 am across the river Mekong over the Friendship Bridge linking the Thai border town of Nong Khai and the Lao capital Vientiane. The evening before, they had been picked up at police detention facilities in the towns of Khao Kho, Lomsak, Na Chaliang and Tha Phon in the northern Thai province of Phetchabun, where they had been held for varying periods of time.
Official Lao media reported that the group of 163, who were referred to as "victims of human trafficking", had been handed over to Lao authorities in accordance with a bilateral agreement signed on 18 May 2007. Their current whereabouts are not known.
Some of those forcibly returned were recent arrivals from Laos, including a group of 48 people, 30 of whom were children. This group was arrested in a makeshift refugee camp of Huay Nam Khao on 31 May 2007 just after their arrival at the camp. Until they were returned they had been held in police detention in Lomsak, where they had reportedly been forced to sign a document accepting the deportation.
Amnesty International is seriously concerned that this forcible return took place in breach of international human rights law and standards. The organisation believes that individuals among the 163 are at risk of grave human rights violations, including torture and arbitrary and indefinite detention. These concerns are further aggravated by the lack of access to Laos for international human rights monitoring bodies, including NGOs, to monitor the well-being of returnees.
The forcible return on 9 June also highlighted the serious situation of insecurity and uncertain future facing up to 8,000 Lao Hmong at Huay Nam Khao in Thailand, all of whom are at risk of forcible return. UNHCR has not been allowed access to this group to determine their protection needs. The Thai authorities have not introduced any fair and satisfactory procedure to enable individuals to claim asylum. Amnesty International is extremely concerned at the precarious situation in which these asylum seekers find themselves.
Thailand's humanitarian role in providing temporary protection to hundreds of thousands of people who have fled persecution and conflict in neighbouring countries is widely recognized. The recent forcible return, which is the second in less than a month, underscores Amnesty International's growing concerns that the Thai government may be changing its policies towards people who enter Thailand to seek asylum and protection from human rights violations.
The organisation calls on the Thai government to uphold its obligations under international law and halt any plans for the return of any Lao Hmong asylum seekers until a fair and satisfactory procedure has been put in place in order to allow these individuals to exercise their human right to seek and enjoy asylum. In line with international law and standards, those who are granted refugee status must also be provided with protection inside Thailand or allowed to resettle in third countries. Amnesty International reminds Thailand of its obligation under international law not to return any person, regardless of their status, to a situation in which they would face torture or other serious human rights violations.
Background
Under international law states are under an obligation not to forcibly return any person in any manner whatsoever to a country where they risk torture or other serious human rights violations (the principle of non-refoulement). This principle, which is provided for in the 1951 Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees, the UN Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment and several other international instruments, is widely regarded as a rule of customary international law and is therefore binding on all states, including Thailand, regardless of its treaty obligations. Furthermore, in line with Thailand's obligations under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, to which it is a state party, Thai authorities may not return anyone to a country where they would be subjected to torture and other ill-treatment. See Human Rights Committee, General Comment 20, Article 7 (Forty-fourth session, 1992), UN Doc. HRI\GEN\1\Rev.1 at 30 (1994), para. 9 which states that "In the view of the Committee, States parties must not expose individuals to the danger of torture or cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment upon return to another country by way of their extradition, expulsion or refoulement."
The total number of Lao Hmong seeking asylum in Thailand is unclear. Some 8,000 asylum seekers who have fled Laos live in the informal refugee settlement in Huay Nam Khao in Phetchabun province. Much smaller numbers live in other places across the country, notably in the border areas and the greater Bangkok region.
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