anuaaron

But i still think that the destiny of all south east Asia is to become a dominion (or a colony) of China.

Unless, as has been discussed in many IR journals, China continues to fail its provinces and social unrest causes a breakaway of these provinces from the centralised government. USSR again? Sure the government would not respond well but as the world becomes more involved they would be sure to keep an eye on the way China dealt with this. Mass murders are not as east to commit anymore.

The point is if you can only get sex by flying to Thailand you are a social misfit. If you dont but come just for sex then you are just taking advantage of poverty...not morally upstanding either.

This is a load of politically correct cr*p.

If a rich guy in America or Europe courts a girl in a poor family, no one accuses him of "taking advantage of poverty". He's just a man, doing what comes naturally, and it is up to her to respond or reject him and, quite often, she will go for it.

The only difference is that, In Thailand, WE are the rich guys for a change!

Agreed Ulysses. The statement is about paying for sex. Not courting Big difference I think .... well hope. I think my whole post should have shown that was what was meant.

I was trying be polite by using the word "courting", but I really meant, "getting laid".

You always pay for it somehow and cash on the barrelhead can save a lot of time and hurt feelings.

Agree with. Damm GF's have cost me a fortune I end up more "backward" after each relationship

Funny how different papers judge things differently. I was in Darwin, Australia the first day the war in Iraq begun (1991). That made the second page, while a story about a rogue crocodile made the front page.

To answer the original question, the academic in me wants to say that it is a question of epistemology (the study of knowledge or "how do we know what we know") and ontology (the study of being). More simply, I think the "backwardness" of Thailand refers to your point of view.

Do you believe that history is linnear, from point A to B, from traditional to modern. Or do you believe in a plurality of histories? And if so, to whom are histories relevant (ie: individuals? cities? countries? civilizations?)

If you believe in the former version of history (modernist point of view), and adopt economics as an indicator of development along the road to modernization, than I suppose Thailand may be seen as backwards. Of course, Thailand can also be construed as culturally "backward" if you subscribe to modernism, because the end result ( point B ) is a destination characterized by homogenization. Right now, this homogonization is mostly considered to be Western culture.

If you adopt the latter viewpoint, that history can be plural and relative, then a comparison with the West becomes more difficult. In this case, the concepts of backwardness and progress are more ambiguous.

This seems kind of familiar to me, and I might have posted it earlier on a different thread. Sorry if I did.

As for myself, I don't think Thailand is "backwards" and that it lags behind Western countries. But on the other hand, by no means do I think things are hunky-dory across the board within the country, regardless of ones point of view. I think the issue is certainly complex and there are many things to take into consideration when considering whether or not it is indeed backwards.

Well said. I was getting to that. Just what is backward. There would be millions of poor in the USA who are feeling pretty backward. The average rates of infant mortality in some of the ghetto areas in the US are equal to those in Africa!!!

The point is if you can only get sex by flying to Thailand you are a social misfit. If you dont but come just for sex then you are just taking advantage of poverty...not morally upstanding either.

This is a load of politically correct cr*p.

If a rich guy in America or Europe courts a girl in a poor family, no one accuses him of "taking advantage of poverty". He's just a man, doing what comes naturally, and it is up to her to respond or reject him and, quite often, she will go for it.

The only difference is that, In Thailand, WE are the rich guys for a change!

Agreed Ulysses. The statement is about paying for sex. Not courting Big difference I think .... well hope. I think my whole post should have shown that was what was meant.

That's a REALLY feeble example. They would be taken anywhere in the world. Why are you here?

No its not G, its you who's decided they are happy with their lot in life.

How do you know this?

Face it lads, you've chosen Thailand because you can afford it. ie. YOU are the ones taking advantage of Thailands poverty and the possibility of it becoming more prosperous is in direct conflict with YOUR chosen lifestyle.

(Nope. I would earn a lot more at home, and did.)

The Shiny happy people you describe for the most part had no choice.

Dont worry, theres plenty of countrys a lot further "behind" Thailand, so if the shit hits the fan you'll have a place to go eek out an existence.

I enjoy helping and teaching people who dont have the same attitudes as western youth. I live comfortably here, do not eek out an existence, but I lived comfortable at home.

Be honest with yourself, had you plenty of money would you be living in a village? Would your sweet young thang say "no honey lets not go to the grocery store, Id rather barter for weeds".

Your choice was primarily based on your financial situation, not your desire to live like Robinson Curusoe.

(I added my comments in bold in the quote) ROFL. You write many good posts so it is dissapointing when you go on a rant and generalise. Dont put everyone in the same boat. Makes the rest of what you say appear like sour grapes and diatribe.

You are "taking advantage" of poverty.

"advantage" isnt necassarily a negative word.

What you want may be different than what many Thais want, you're comment that you dont want to see the Thailand do "so well" is what you want.

Your post is all about YOU.

You're by your own admission not wealthy, so for you Thais becoming competitive and ambitious is a bad thing.

You've found a little oasis to drop out in and that suits you, the fact that you hope for the people to remain impoverished is a little selfish.

Good comments ROFL. I think the key is that developing Thailand does not mean it should follow the industrial and consumer goaled path of western countries. This path is failing socially even in the so called developed world. Sadly it seems that Thailand is well on its way down that path. Being ambitious for the betterment of yourself and the community is laudible, to be competitive to buy a plasma screen TV while your neighbours, who dont get the breaks or family advantages, fail to eat seems unfair. The "trickle-down effect" is just not realistic. The gap between rich and poor is growing in the west as it is anywhere in the world. What will happen when the poor have had enough??

Thailand is was ranked 36th in the world for Global Competitiveness Rankings

http://www.weforum.org/pdf/Global_Competit...ankings_pdf.pdf

Considering this thread is about competing in the global market I'll refer you to

title of the thread Her Neighbours continue to leave her behind

These were just figures for thought (yes I do understand them). I think the closeness of the figures and totals (in may cases neglible between 20-100) show that Thailand is not being left behind and is not backward. At least i put some figures up to discuss and to make a reasonably informed judgement and not just base it on a newspaper article. I agree that perhaps the figures for Thailand may be wrong, but then so would any other Southeast Asian nation you believe you are comparing it to.

As for what Thailand has to offer, it is obviously more than sex. The point is if you can only get sex by flying to Thailand you are a social misfit. If you dont but come just for sex then you are just taking advantage of poverty...not morally upstanding either. I do not care if someone comes to here and sits in bars for two weeks and goes home, but dont say that all Thailand has.

Few words for ya,

Ratchada

Geisha

Mia Noi

More Thai men visit massage palors than farang.

Nobody has said that the sex trade is all Thailand has but I have said that farang do come here to embrace that area of Thai culture and that Thailand would suffer huge if they actually enforced their laws.

Have you ever watched a bus load of Chinese going into Pattay? Do they look like they are off to visit the temples?

The difference is that farang are less discreet, more open about it, more honest,,,,less ashamed?

Have you ever been to Japan? Have you ever had a mid-level business meeting in Japan?

So there you have it, as you said Thai men are immoral and take advantage of poverty within their own country.

At least the farang that go to soapy pay more, if anything its the Thai men who are "really" taking advantage of poverty. If they were so concerned they would pay what farang pay.

I know this should not be in this thread but just a quick reply. I have long held the view that Thai men are more responsible than foreigners for the prostitution in their country. Wrote a good paper on that actually But the answer was based on the comment that "sex is all Thailand has to offer". This was being discussed from the view of a tourist. I am not sure how a poor Thai man is taking advantage of poverty? That means that if I visit a prositute in a western country who earns more than me I am taking advantage of her?? In the majority of Thai-Thai prostitution cases it is poor men visiting poor women...therefore no advantage is being taken. Of course the morality, disempowerment, social stigma, related to the female...are all other issues . Oh you are right about Japan, I think they are worse then the Thais by a long stretch when it comes to how they treat women. Had two meetings that were just excuses to take advantage of getting drunk and laid. It was to expensive for me though

I got a tub of good quality powder, scented soaps, good quality flip flops, and put 2500 baht in an envelope. Remember your gift is a reflection of your position. You give the best you can.

As someone said earlier dont expect effusive thanks but that is their way. They do not give effusive thanks to each other either. Younger people will show more thanks than elder people but that is because you are expected to look after your elders. Seems reasonable. She did tell my long tern GF that she was impressed by the powder She whacks it on by the bucket load every night.

My deepest condolences Baboon. I don't know how anyone can be expect to figure out that a country will just up and grant a holiday and plan their lives accordingly, anyway.

Hey baboon, That is terrible and I know no words of sorrow can do much to help but I am always sad to hear of these things and you find some peace in the future.

Am I the only one though who has known about this holiday for the last three months?? Eveyone at my Uni was awrae of it!

"So, I'd say, for a foreigner to speak and understand Thai at a conversational level, you must learn to read the language."

I used to think that as well and put a lot of effort into the reading and writing. Then I met a guy who cant read or write but speaks Thai as well as locals on all levels. Sooooo I have to say reading is not required.

http://www.alloexpat.com/china_expat_forum/

http://www.bjexpat.com/

http://www.shanghaiexpat.com/

Since you did not mentioning retiring in China I am not sure anything was helpful, not all of us are at that age These links give you some good forums. I lived in China for two years and loved it. After another couple of years in Thailand will go back.

Well I am not the only one. Sunantha woke up from an afternoon sleep while I was out. When I came home all my clothes were outside and the door locked!!! She dreamt I had an affair that day. Hehehehe gotta love her. Anyway one night at a comfy hotel and I was allowed back in

Thailand is was ranked 36th in the world for Global Competitiveness Rankings

http://www.weforum.org/pdf/Global_Competit...ankings_pdf.pdf

24th for Current Account Balances

http://www.photius.com/rankings/economy/cu...nce_2005_0.html

Way down in 107th for aid received

39th in the world for budget expenditure and 40th in the world for budget revenues.

And finally 20th in the world for GDP.

These are not the figures of a backward country. If you are a capitalist these figures mean everything to you. If you are more socially minded then perhaps there are more things to consider. But in a pure economic sense Thailand is not backward or a basket case by any stretch of the imagination.

Some social figures for interest:

117th in the world for infant mortality rates. (20.4 deaths/1000)

111th for life expectancy (71 years)

21st in the worlds populations (65,444,000)

47th in the WHO health ranking system (disputed by many)

41st in Literacy (92.6% of the pop)

42nd Military expenditure ($1,775,000)

43rd in % of miltary expenditure of GDP (1.8%)

"

I laughing my ass off that a Thai? person or persons is arrogant enough to think that they are such a special species that cannot be comprehended by the rest of the world."

You wouldnt be American then as they have full control of the arrogance market. And Thai culture is a developed culture not a borrowed such as Americas and Australias (where I am from). There are flaws in all cultures but it is not realistic to say you can understand a culture without really understanding the intricies that are in those cultures. Your full post was very hostile and almose racist. Not needed at all.

No, he does realize exactly what Thailand has to offer, even if its not a particularly original observation to say it.

This guy merely repeats what uncounted other people say all the time and he's instantly denounced here as a social mitfit. Good Lord. The board is at least being consistent in its blind, unstinting boosterism about Thailand, isn't it?

Wow...I cant believe someone thinks this board boosts Thailand I always thought it was negative!

As for what Thailand has to offer, it is obviously more than sex. The point is if you can only get sex by flying to Thailand you are a social misfit. If you dont but come just for sex then you are just taking advantage of poverty...not morally upstanding either. I do not care if someone comes to here and sits in bars for two weeks and goes home, but dont say that all Thailand has.

As for the original topic. Please go and read some books. You are totally misguided to the economic situation of the region. As for using the English language as a way to guage development...boy how ethnocentric can you get. Why the hel_l should the average Thai learn English, it is an expensive undertaking and it is not guaranteed to change their lives!!!

To get past the usual complaints made about anything Thai, I think it is fair to say that this is as good excuse as any to have a holiday. 60 years of honest toil is a effort worthy of respect. Enjoy the Kings reign because we do not know what will follow after this wise man leaves the field of play.

If you are used to a convenient town li ke CM then Phi'lok is a step down. I stayed in an awful condo in the downtown area where you couldn't walk around for the stray dogs.

The fact that there is one ex-pat hangout says it all. Where is the good food in P-lok? And the nearest cinema with films in english is 2 hours drive away!

Yeah but there are lots of places to go and drink and have fun. Dollar Bar for example plus a strip of bars in the centre of town. Why do you just need to go to expat bars? Myself and friends go to Thai bars and enjoy ourselves. As for the food, Thai food is everywhere and is delicious. Better than western crap. You can get your fix of Western food once or twice a week easily or you can travel to Chaing Mai or Bangkok for a weekend or more away as well. I stayed in a really nice place, so accomodation is there if you look. Chaing Mai is dirty, crowded, full of pessimistic expats, expensive, but is lots of fun . It really comes down to the life you want to lead. Either place suits different people As with anywhere, visit for awhile and see what you think, and take into acoount your wifes wishes as well

Also worth taking notice of is the fact that if after there has been a full enquiry in to the allegations made against him and he is cleared of any wrong doing. HE WILL BE BACK.

And I'd wager that PM will be cleared and he will be back.

Possibly, but considering his wealth and time spent in the public eye I wonder if he would want to come back.

....I suggest you start reading online newspapers. How many westerners have been killed in Thailand?? Less than English backpackers and foreigners in Australia.

Sure Thailand had problems but no less than the social dregs that exist in the most other countries. Fancy walking around cities in the US at night...or is that TIT as well.

Hmmm I guess none of listed places called lands of thousand smiles and great hospitality

Seen the latest Tourism Australia adds. "One of the friendliest countries in the world". "True Aussie hospitality."

TIT indeed if farang stabs Thai he'll be in jail no bail, if vice versa Thai is walking.... sure he is not a danger to society he only kill a farang! and who cares about farang...

it's a pity this kind of stories keep coming up in the country of SMILES more often

Where are you getting these ideas from!!!! It is not just Thailand. It is normal for a foreigner not to be given bail as he has no ties to the region and is a higher risk to flee than a local. But if a foreigner did kill a Thai, forfieted his passport, paid a huge bail, he to would be out awaiting trail. I get sick of reading posts where people go "TIT" when in reality "TITW" (This is the world). And you seem to think these stories are unique to Thailand....I suggest you start reading online newspapers. How many westerners have been killed in Thailand?? Less than English backpackers and foreigners in Australia.

Sure Thailand had problems but no less than the social dregs that exist in the most other countries. Fancy walking around cities in the US at night...or is that TIT as well.

I totally agree with the general tenure of your post but this bit has me asking questions

"How many westerners have been killed in Thailand?? Less than English backpackers and foreigners in Australia."

Well I think the foreign Office has said 9 Britons since August 04 and now this one.

I can also recall a few Scandinavians and one or two Germans recently.

Just how many have been killed in Australia?

There have been over 80 foreign nationals killed or missing in Australia over 24 months I was merley trying to highlight that it is not just Thailand. In fact two Thai girls were murdered and thrown into a river in Darwin last year.

Looks like hitting & KILLING is the only solution for thai to close the issues with foreginers....Srini,Tokyo.

And, notice how every time it's in a cowardly manner... stabbed in the back, beat up by a gang, shot an unarmed person, etc. Thai men sure are tough guys. Why don't they simply use muay Thai?

Yeah coz all those gang murders in the US happen with a fair dual....get real.

So beware..! White men BEWARE!!!

IF you want a Thai wife you need to be careful of your selective family because when you marry someone it means you marry a whole family. Unlike western world.

It is not just being with someone you love but the whole culture and it is even more complex when you have to live in Thailand.

This is actually very good advice. When you are about to marry your prostitute you have fallen in love check out her whiskey swilling father and tattoed brother. They now belong to you....hmmmm..."but she was such a nice girl in the bar on soi 6 for the two weeks I knew her before asking her to marry me. Her family was soooo friendly"

This sort of thing happens more than once a week in pattaya, but the topics are usually shepherded off to the local forums and not followed up on. Its a bit difficult to class two stab wounds to the back as natural causes/suicide tho

Lol...once a week....been listening to the boys on Soi 8 again have we. A Thai killing a foreigner in Pattaya is actually very low. Drunk farangs fallling out of buildings and crashing into motor cars is another story. Dont believe pub talk. Thai police do not class stab wounds in the back as suicide. I worked as a police liason for 6 months there.

There have been 63 western deaths in Pattaya in the last 12 months. 6 are foul play. 1 murder every two months is pretty good when you look at the crowd Pattaya gets and the way farangs treat Thais there.