cotambear

If you search the stickman site, readers submissions, i did an A_Z of thai scams about 1 year ago.

'Force of habit' doesn't fit, surely? That would bring the question 'why?' full circle. Personality disorder, yes, that I would go with. To an extent. I have personally come across people in whom 'personality disorder' would fit, but only having manifested itself with the aforgoing set of circumstances present: no fear of regress, censure from peer group.

I take issue with your comment that 'It is unlikely that even a group of boys (except from abusive families) would act like that'. It has been widely proven that two children from equally abusive families would both turn out to be, themselves, abusers. One might, the other might not.

So 'conditioning' is a red herring IMHO.

Error in logic here. Not all children in abusive families become abusers themselves. But a much higher proportion of them do than from functional families Its like the ladyboy argument - the great majority of ladyboys are not pickpockets, but arguably there is a higher proportion thsn the general populous. While Darwin was one of the greatest figure of the Enlightement, many of his followers have adopted a crude animalistic model of man, ignoring the thinking man who has a culture and values. Shocking as each individual case is, the reason it is more shocking is that the murder of young children by other young children is so exceptional.

Which country are you talking about?

UK as per previuos post complaining that the benefit of doubt is given to burglars.

If you read my last post you will see I stated 'odinary people leading unexceptional lives', which obviously precludes not only scummy shyster jack the lads, but equally scummy donald trump wannabes also. Although your remark 'in the blood' is almost there - was Lord of The Flies a true reflection on human nature after all?

As to 'little possibility of redress in the courts' Yes immunity guaranteed by police bribes is indeed the norm, unless one stops listening to bar talk and engage a lawyer who is willing and able to circumvent the thieves in brown and press enforcable charges through the Civil Court.

But my question as to why some expats find themselves actually capable of reprehensible behaviour toward their fellow expats/friends has still not been answered. Is it, after all, 'wire in the blood'?

Hmm perhaps I should have said `force of habit` or personality disorder rather than `in the blood`.

LOF by Golding was informed by his Catholic misanthropy - original sin and all that. It is unlikely that even a group of boys (except from abusive families) would act like that. Adults of course have a lifetime conditioning in right and wrong, and even young children can distinguish that too.

Homeowners have the right to use reasonable force against burglars, and the benefit of the doubt is given to them. In the rare instance that a case comes to court the homeowner is judged by his peers by a jury, who I assure you have no sympathy for burglars having sat on one myself. This nonsense is spouted by the papers, and mugs believe it.

Perhaps LOS attracts more than its fair share of

a) Farang short on money desperate to stay here

People who have made big money in business largely by having no scruples. The continue here because `its in the blood` so to speak

Add into that little possibility of redress in the courts, immunity bought with police bribes..............

I, for one, welcome our new ant overlords.

Anywhere stock lucky strikes mild?

Things like this are over as quick as they start. Unlikely footage will ever materialise. I would like to hear from the other Thai Visa members that witnessed the event, to hear if their account differs in any way from the OP. No disrespect 'Scubabuddha', I generally like your posts, but lets face it, 20 people was probably really 12 and I would guess no more than 8 of them landed any punches or kicks. Don't get me wrong that's still atrocious behaviour, but goes to show how things get exaggerated and blown way out of proportion. Think about it, 20 people around a Tuk Tuk! it would be physically impossible for them all to be actively involved. Unless they formed a queue of course. From the sound of the OP you would expect people to be on deaths door. The truth is probably a bruise or two. Again not making light of what happened, people just need to put a reality check on things.

Oh thats alright then. Thanks for putting my mind at rest.

Best way is to try to remove sources of standing water eg overfilled plant pots/old tyres etc. I believe in Canada you can be fined if you do not do this.

Get a cat?

Then fairly simple. Don't get yourself into a situation where there's even the remotest possibility of that happening. Sorry if that sounds condescending, but in truth if you're remotely aware of the potential scams and dangers, you just avoid them. Not sure if you're a resident or not, but you do have some knowledge, the most powerful tool in the world.

Thi morning near nanai I watched a farang park his bike on a side street unaware that the `territory` had been claimed by a motosai taxi, a driver pulled up behind him and gave him an aggressive slap on the leg. Its not WW3 know, but that kind of thing simply wouldnt have happened a few years ago. The rot spreads unless cut out, and will spread to a soi near you. Do you really fancy having to move every couple of years?

Back in 2000 these issues were not here.. Painting them as being a fixture since the dark ages is not haveing a real grasp of how it is now on the west coast, it wasnt like this even 2 years ago. And relatively OK maybe 5+.

If that's the case then people need to start voting with there feet. Either to different parts of Phuket, different parts of Thailand or somewhere else in the world. Things change, not always for the good, deal with it and move on.

Your problem (which you happily admit) is you want your som tum and to eat it too. It seems as though for your happiness something is going to have to give, and that may well be, not living in Phuket anymore. (I wish I could afford to have your dilemma)

At least you don't have issues with other people being happy, and accept that they are. The posters that don't live here yet seem to think people must be lying when they say they have no grief in Phuket and live an enjoyable peaceful life, is baffling to me.

I dont want to pay 200 baht for a som tum made by a drunken thug who might then suddenly decide that the price has gone up to 400 and if I dont pay it then I`ll get hit over the head with a machette.

You can smell the sh!t, eat the sh!t or remove the sh!tters. Up to us all I think.

Cotambear: you just don't get it. The poorest Thais in Phuket don't travel from "Patong to Karon". They are working on wage-labor assignments in their locality and just want to save enough money to take some back home.

I totally agree with logbags. I have travelled to every province in Thailand (in addition to 40 countries around the world) and have never seen a provincial bus service as good as Thailand's. You can go from any province to any other province in a day. From there you can get to any district in less than a few hours. Where else in the world can you do this -- exccept, perhaps, in an island-state like Singapore?

Over to you.

Yes, because they cant afford it. Do you get it now?

You present the `whinres` as old ladies who complain to their local paper in farangland about the local bus service.

It sounds pretty similar to me, when you hear it day in day out. Yes, quite a good comparison.

I personally haven't been in a Phuket Tuk tuk for about 6 years and haven't physically seen one for at least three days, so maybe you need to be better at avoiding the things that upset you.

As mentioned, the bus service runs to and from all areas, the only limitation, is not being able to go down the coast, and having to go in to town first. Hardly the end of the world.

What exactly is it you are looking for? Someone to piggy back you from one end of Bangla to the other perhaps.

When you move somewhere you take it as it, warts and all. How is it that the problem is big enough to moan about constantly, but not so big that you need to move away, or not have moved here in the first place? It seems like it's the perfect sized problem for you. You get to live here and have something to moan about every day.

Reasonably priced transport. Is that clear enough?

You present the `whinres` as old ladies who complain to their local paper in farangland about the local bus service.

It sounds pretty similar to me, when you hear it day in day out. Yes, quite a good comparison.

I personally haven't been in a Phuket Tuk tuk for about 6 years and haven't physically seen one for at least three days, so maybe you need to be better at avoiding the things that upset you.

As mentioned, the bus service runs to and from all areas, the only limitation, is not being able to go down the coast, and having to go in to town first. Hardly the end of the world.

What exactly is it you are looking for? Someone to piggy back you from one end of Bangla to the other perhaps.

When you move somewhere you take it as it, warts and all. How is it that the problem is big enough to moan about constantly, but not so big that you need to move away, or not have moved here in the first place? It seems like it's the perfect sized problem for you. You get to live here and have something to moan about every day.

Interesting that you have avoided the question of corruption, threats and violence. I wonder why?

No, They're all at it! My wife does it at least twice a month. Some members of her family do it daily. My Thai neighbour, only doesn't do it because he can't ride a motorbike, but he cheers and claps whenever he hears about it.

Nothing bad ever happens in woohoo world.

Ask a tuk tuk driver, they stock a wide range.

And you know what, its the poorest thais who suffer the most as they are denied one of the basic infrastructures, cheap public transport.

## Well I don't know, there are buses running daily into town and back from every beach for no more than 25 baht. An air-con bus is available to every province and they are extremely cheap. Trains run the length of the nation and are also very cheap. Even air travel in Thailand is very reasonable.

Tuk Tuks in Patong and other tourist night spots are the problem. Don't confuse two seperate issues. The bus from Phuket to Nakhon Sri Thammarart is only 375 baht or about $10 USD for a 6 hour trip on a nice roomy air con bus. Public transport in most provinces is very good and very cheap.

Of course public transport in the provinces is cheap, its not run by the tuk tuk gang. How do the poorest thais without even a scooter get from patong to karon for example? How do they get from one end of patong to the other? Dont tell me the motosai taxis are cheap, a ride takes a big chunk out of the thai minmum wage.

Quote 'LivinLOS' Why would I leave a country that offers so much, to come to a country where people have so very little, and then whine about such petty things, such as a poor bus service!

This is beyond naive, its plain stupidity. You present the `whinres` as old ladies who complain to their local paper in farangland about the local bus service.

You really dont get it do you. The tuk tuk gross gouging is quite simply criminal extortion. The skim money goes to the police and is in turn passed right to the top.

In return the criminals get virtual carte blanche to do as they will. More criminal elements get sucked in to patong for the perceived easy money. The criminal fraternity that is sucked in creates more robbers and thieves, more blackhearts with a sneer not a smile.

If the tuk tuk scum dont get their way they threaten and use violence. The police look the other way unless a very big incident happens to hit the farang newspapers.

The appearance is given that something will be done, and then it is all forgotten. JJ, the jetski man who produced a gun to extort money for damages is back on the beach.

And you know what, its the poorest thais who suffer the most as they are denied one of the basic infrastructures, cheap public transport.

Sooner or later one of these vermin will murder someone. Will that then convince you that there is a problem?

This was not aimed a LIVINLOS, but woohoohoo who quouted him, my appologies for confusion.

Quote 'LivinLOS' Why would I leave a country that offers so much, to come to a country where people have so very little, and then whine about such petty things, such as a poor bus service!

This is beyond naive, its plain stupidity. You present the `whinres` as old ladies who complain to their local paper in farangland about the local bus service.

You really dont get it do you. The tuk tuk gross gouging is quite simply criminal extortion. The skim money goes to the police and is in turn passed right to the top.

In return the criminals get virtual carte blanche to do as they will. More criminal elements get sucked in to patong for the perceived easy money. The criminal fraternity that is sucked in creates more robbers and thieves, more blackhearts with a sneer not a smile.

If the tuk tuk scum dont get their way they threaten and use violence. The police look the other way unless a very big incident happens to hit the farang newspapers.

The appearance is given that something will be done, and then it is all forgotten. JJ, the jetski man who produced a gun to extort money for damages is back on the beach.

And you know what, its the poorest thais who suffer the most as they are denied one of the basic infrastructures, cheap public transport.

Sooner or later one of these vermin will murder someone. Will that then convince you that there is a problem?

Didnt they say that Christ would return in 1912?

As metioned in a previous post, currently, they are not getting any fares, so, to cruise around all day, and pick up and drop off like a baht bus, has to make more money than maybe getting one naive new tourist for 200 baht and then getting to the back of the que.

Oh I just love Thai-axegrinder.com. You always get so many balanced and informed opinions. I've never seen so many allround infrastructure, transportation, tourist industry and real estate experts located in one forum in my life.

Let's see, you are probably happy to go to bars and pay rip off prices for drinks, you then pay up to 500 baht if you want to take a girl out of the bar, the girl may want anything from 1000 upwards for her company. However you then want to be driven home for 20 baht. 200 baht is very outrageous for a ride home is it. I don't hear you complaining about the Rock City bar charging 200 baht for a small beer

I'll tell you a bit of history. Who did away with full bottle and half bottle mekong being sold in bars and only sold it only in glasses? - farang.

Who introduced bar fines when there never were any? -farang

Who opened Patong's first go go bar with bar fines? -farang

Yes, certain farangs taught many Thai's these gouging methods after bringing them down from Pattaya in the 80's.

Who taught the Thais how to lease and then sub-lease land plots and beer bar sois ? - farang

I can tell you about an American who worked at a law firm in Phuket. He set up just about every lease in Patong. He didn't give a shit as he never lived there.

I had a tuk-tuk driver at my place for cards recently. He said certain farangs complain bitterly about every peceived wrong in Phuket. Yet, never ever hold back on spending thousands on some bar girl from Udon or wherever. They hear the girls and what they really say about their love struck romeo.

The price of 200 baht for anywhere in Patong is a gouge, they admit it. They say "why should all these bar girls make a fortune while we sit around like muppets waiting for a fare then have to fight someone over 50 baht. They see guys happily handing over 2000 baht to some northern farm girl then have the same guy get pissed over his fare.

I know a number of drivers who have wives who work all day as maids in bungalows and then sit by their husband all night while he drives. They see the girls every morning leaving all cashed up yet rarely see a tip or gift from a guest like that. Then you wonder why they get pissed?

Thais are perhaps the most maleable and easy going people around, they are easy to win over and be friends with. They see bar crawlers as hypocrites willing to shell out a fortune on their own selfish gratifications then act like the original cheap charlie when dealing with them.

In 1985 a taxi to the airport from Patong was 500 baht, it still is. Back then 1 Aussie dollar 17-18 baht. U.S dollar was 24 or 25 baht. Now 1 Aussie is 30 baht and U.S 34 baht. A knock off water proof rolex was 500-800 baht. Things are actually much cheaper except farang owned bars like Rock City etc. Man, DVD's are 50 baht now, they used to be at least 100 or more.

In 1985 a tuk tuk to Kata was 700 baht at night after bar time and Surin was 700 and that was <deleted> miles away in those days as there was no ring road by the beach. The price of petrol is five times more expensive now as well.

Patong hasn't changed much at all in 25 years price wise per dollar rate. I have a picture of myself standing outside the Kangaroo bar New Years eve 1985. Apart from the flat screen T.V nothing has changed.

If you got rid of the Burmese, Bangladeshi and Indian suit sellers etc, Patong would still be ok. That to me is the main difference between now and the old days. That and the bar fines. This constant talk of a taxi "mafia" is ill-informed and tedious. These guys just want to protect their living, would you prefer they stopped driving farangs and started robbing them instead? They just want their slice of the tourist pie.

I ran businesses back then. I saw companies like budget and Avis move in, undercut everyone and put a lot of people out of a living. The smart Thais remember these things.

Well tough titty I say. The girls provide an intense personal service. They suffer the shame of thai society by going to bed with old overweight farang with bad BO. The do it at a price that is reasonable to them and the farang. The price is negotiable until it reaches a point where both are happy, otherwise they go their seperate ways.

That is not the case with tuk tuks. The price is fixed - 200 baht just to start the engine. The passenger has no alternate means of public transport. The tuk tuk scum may seeth at the money the girls are earning but frankly they are earning it, and the scum sat on their <deleted> all day drinking sam song are not. Youre right on one thing BTW, they are muppets. Evil muppets

That is your opinion, I don't think this is a fact.

It is not a popular opinion at the moment, but IMO: some tuktuk drivers act antisocial, but the (vast) majority are just working guys trying to make a living. And yes, they are friendly enough, no problem at all.

No, they do not share the common values shared by working people, their values are dog eat dog, intimidation wins, corruption wins, a `I`m a member of the biggest gang in the island and I can do what the hel_l I like` mentality, a `screw em because another sucker comes along every minute` mentality. These are not values shared by most working people.