Kaysfeld

I don't understand your point, Kaysfield.

Are you saying that VSC is useless? No.

Are you saying that VSC is an unwelcome addition to Vigo that would have no effect on safety? No.

Are you saying that VSC will not apply breaks and slow the car down? No.

Are you saying that increasing the speed at which the driver is able to swerve and still stay on the road does not increase safety, even if it's only by 5-10 km/h? No.

My point is that all car should have VSC/ESP as standard because it makes all type of cars safer.

But the driver shouldn't think that the VSC/ESP make his car behave like a F1 car.

If you drive like you didn't have the VSC/ESP you will be safer with VSC/ESP.

But if you drive faster and take turns faster because of the VSC/ESP then you haven't raised safety, because you are just as likely to rollover as before.

VSC/ESC system does not allow vehicles to reach speeds and conditions that would result in a rollover.

Electronic Stability Control (ESC/VSC) explained

VSC/ESC system does not allow vehicles to reach speeds and conditions that would result in a rollover.

What? Do you think that VSC/ESC glue the pickup to the road?

If you turn sharply, and your speed is high enough any car will rollover.

The speed at which it will happen increases the lower the cars point of gravity is.

Of cause advanced car design and VSC/ESC can move the limit, but it doesn't make any car/pickup immune to rollovers.

The idear of a ESC system is to move this limit maybe 5-10 km/hour. Not much maybe but enough to give you time to break your car/pickup enough to survive an sudden sharp turn.

And it will also help you to stabilize whe car/truck after the turn.

But ESC can't make miracles.

If you drive far over the limits of your car/pickup and your own limit, and have to make this sharp (emergency) turn, and you aren't able to reduce the speed quick enough, the car is in serious danger of a rollover with or without ESC.

And yes, I'd love to see those acident statistics that "tell it all", especially as related to cars with/without stability control systems.

Contributing Factors of Road Crashes in Thailand Evidence from an Accident In-Depth Study Study

Vehicle Rollover

The rollover accident is a complex type of crashes. It is considered that this type of crashes is seriously influenced by all three main factors, driver, roadway/roadside design,

and vehicle characteristic. Rollover does not occur as frequently as other types of crashes, but in case of occurring; the consequences lead to serious injuries or death.

Cargo Load

Many rollover accidents were found to have oversize cargo load that significantly increasing the height of center of gravity, reducing stability of vehicle, and hence causing

vehicle roll-over. A Static Stability Factor (SSF) was introduced by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) during 2001-2003 to represent rollover resistance rating to public.

Rollover Cases Involved in Cargo Load

Vehicle Load Estimated Load SSF Chance of Rollover

Pickup Glass 2,160 kg 1.19 24%

Pickup 8 adults and 1 child 530 kg 1.25 20%

Pickup 10 adults and 2 children 700 kg 1.30 18%

Pickup 23 adults Passengers 1,380 kg 1.27 19%

Pickup Raw Food 1,720 kg 1.27 19%

Panic-Like Steering

A panic-like steering is the action maneuvered by driver in overcorrecting the steering condition made from sudden or panic reaction mostly found in case of emergency. It may

cause vehicles losing control, consequently the vehicles move along the sideway, and eventually roll over. Six cases of rollover accidents were found as panic-like steering involved, including four pickups and two trucks. The panicsteering in all of them were caused by different emergency stories, and the steering actions were then made in order to avoid such unexpected events, however, it caused adverse outcomes.

Roadside Slope

When a vehicle runs off the carriageways, it is likely to overturn when it strikes a ditch or embankment or is tripped by soft soil. Many rollover crashes occur along freeways with grassy or dirt medians when a driver loses control at highway speeds and the vehicle slides sideways off the road and overturns when the tires dig into the dirt.

Injury Characteristics of Rollover Crashes

Out of 175 casualties involved in rollover accidents, 21 fatalities, 76 serious injuries, 68 slight injuries, and 10 no injuries were found. The injury of belted and unbelted occupants was compared. Un-belted occupants could represent either occupant did not use seatbelt or seatbelts were not installed. In total, 12-belted occupants and 163 un-belted occupants are found from total 175 occupants.

No fatality found for belted occupants, on the other hand, 21 (13%) and 75 (46%) of unbelted occupants suffered fatalities and serious injuries, respectively. It must be noted that all 21 fatalities in rollover cases were ejected from the vehicles. The findings indicate the need of seatbelt to reduce the chance of occupants to be ejected from the vehicle and suffering serious injury in rollover crashes.

Comparisons of Injury between Belted and Unbelted Occupants

Severity Total Belted Un-belted

Fatality 21 - 21 (13%)

Serious 76 1 (8%) 75 (46%)

Slight 68 4 (33%) 64 (39%)

No injury 10 7 (58%) 3 (2%)

Total 175 12 163

ACKNOWLEDGEMENT

The author would like to dedicate all of this work to late Prof. Yordphol Tanaboriboon, the first TARC manager, for his initiative scheme on road safety research contributed to Thai society.

This study doesn't involve a large number of accidents, but all the rollover vehicles involved in rollovers had a high point of gravity.

Vehicle is another major component involving in road accidents. A safer vehicle can draw the line between life and death in a road accident. As the TARC team was trained by the experts from Volvo Car Corporation, Sweden, TARC is highly capable of conducting in-depth accident investigation and computer based reconstruction to establishing the chain-of-events prior to accident to the end of accident to understand the accident mechanism based on trajectory and energy based approach of reconstruction. The latest models in the production lines of the manufacturers are

being equipped with cutting edge technologies related to safety. However, the physical dimension of the vehicle users plays a key role in capitalizing these new benefits. To Inception Report Road Safety Knowledge Development and Dissemination Thailand Accident Research Center Asian Institute of Technology 12 add more, the inclusions of new safety features are due to countervail the problems

related to safety issues in the developed countries which can be substantially different from the problems of ASEAN countries. accidents in Thailand

More about accident statistics Accidents in Thailand

About Rollover safety

Rollover: Vehicle Class Comparison Which type of vehicle is most likely to rollover?

VSC Vigo has been out for a couple of weeks only, I'm not sure it's available in Europe yet - Thailand is their main design and production base.

Yeah I was pretty surprised the new Vigo seems to have everything and the kitchen sink. Electric seats, all sorts of electronic driving aids like VSC traction control, ABS, etc etc. Toyota is doing a good job there.

I am envious! My Fortuner doesn't have that stuff, despite that "Exclusive" label (haha)! I guess that's how they get us to buy new cars even though we have a perfectly working older one already

Anyway, that should put the roll-over rumors to rest. I don't think it was a problem in the first place, really. My friend has had a Vigo since it came out and he's driving this car as fast as it will possibly go and didn't manage to roll it over. It's a high clearance truck so you can't expect it to corner like a Porsche but I just don't think the rollover risk is anything out of the ordinary.

So you don't think a the rollover risk is anything out of the ordanary in a truck?

Just look at the accident statistics, they tell it all.

It is also pure logic that a high truck will have a much higher risk of rollover that a lower normale car.

Sure a VSC system (ESC) can move the margins a bit, but it can't change the laws of physics. A car with a higher point of gravity will roll earlier than a car with a lower one. Nothing can change that.

That you friend haven't rolled yet doesn't mean that it will not happen some day.

There are also heavy smokers out there that haven't got cancer yet, but nobody think that they aren't in a big risk of shorting their life with many years.

It's a two year old news, for christsakes, Motor.

Toyota has already released a new model with stability control as standard.

Mitsu Triton that was tested in Sweden had it already but it's stil not available on any models sold in Thailand, from any other car maker.

Already thank god. They are surrely fast those Toyota guys. Their fastness must have saved many life.

And that they release this ESC on all their pickup/fortuner models, and not only on their rarely sold top model will surrely also save many life.

Happy safe new year.

Wheels magazine, COTY 2007:

TOYOTA KLUGER

Impressive drivetrain hampered by fundamentally flawed dynamics.

A Toyota Kluger Grande lying forlornly on its side will remain one of the enduring images of Wheels COTY 2007. However, it would be a mistake to assume that this one incident sealed Kluger's fate as a round one ejectee. By the time Bulmer went for his wild ride, Toyota's new mid-size soft-roader was already on the nose with all of the judging panel.

Even with stability control some vehicles can be dangerous as one motoring journalist found out. But I would think ESC is something that should be standard on all vehicles.

I agree.

ESC shouldn't be that expensive to develope to any car in our computerage. Why take the chance without it. But the problem is that ESC doesn't sell any cars in certain markets like Thailand. A smart newly designed useless spoiler will make the car sell better, not at safety thing like ESC

Thank you Chicken Little...

Everyone , QUICK! Go unload your Hilux Vigo trucks, or else you will certainly die the next time you drive it!

Send this to everyone you know!

I will keep mine.

It is ok with me if you make fun of a serious issue.

Better stick your head in the ground then you will be safe, right

Accidents only happens to the others fools, right?

I read in Bangkok Post Motoring that new Vigo is the only truck with ESC system in Thailand, but it might not be installed on all models.

"Just name it: leather seats, electric seat adjustment for the driver, cruise control, MP3 player, twin airbags and electronic governing the brakes and chassis. Yes, you read it: VSC which is stability and traction control in Toyota speak."

http://www.bangkokpost.com/241008_Motoring...008_motor61.php

That would be great if that is true. Does anyone have an Vigo with VSC?

I just wonder why they (Toyota) will sell a Vigo in Thailand with VSC, where most people don't care about safety and would rather save the money, and not in Sweden where people DO care about safety and will gladly pay the extra for an ESC system.

So Vigo is Bangkok Post favorite pickup.

I must admit that it look great and so do the Fortuner, but to say that it has tidy handling, doesn't agree with any other test of the pickup that I have read.

But maybe they don't expect to much handling wise.

New updated 2009 Toyota Hilux out, but still no ESC system

http://www.alltommotor.se/artiklar/nyheter...ntisladd-1.3801

If you like Pattaya or something like Patong Beach in Phuket, don't come to Chiang Mai, because it wouldn't be for you.

The wildest bar streets in Chiang Mai can't match a sidestreet i Pattaya.

But if you want to get away from all that, have the conveniences of a big city without most of the big cities disadvantages then I don't know any better place in Thailand.

I just stayed in Pattaya for 4 days (family visit). 4 days in Pattaya was to much for me. Both me and my family was glad to get away from that place.

We are now back in Chiang Mai, where we will spend the rest of our vacation (3 weeks).

What do the Swedes know ?

they drive with their lights on in daytime !!

A.Partridge

"Not looking and seeing properly are major causes of accidents. "Be seen" by using your lights, even during daylight hours. This will reduce the chance of your going unnoticed by other drivers and minimize part of the problem." from Safe Driving at http://www.rversonline.org/ArtSafe101.html

A study by Avis Rent A Car showed a 64% reduction in car damages, and a 69% decrease in repair costs for cars equipped with daylight running lights. Their study didn't show though how many was saved from body injury and death. This probably doesn't count as much as the money saved on repairs, after all reparing the bodies isn't their problem.

The biggest problem with daylight running lights is that they make the car safer, but may make motorcycles less safe, because they can be mistaken for one of the front lights on a car with their lights on, if they drive just in front of that car.

Thai set to order 20 A321s and lease 14 787-9s

Thai Airways International has revised a fleet modernisation plan approved by its board last year and will seek government approval to order 20 Airbus A321s and lease 14 Boeing 787-9s.

The carrier's directors met on 16 January and agreed to "move ahead with the aircraft orders based on the 10-year plan that was approved by the board of directors in September 2007".

Since September, Thai has been seeking government approval to order 65 new aircraft as part of a $12.5 billion fleet expansion and modernisation. Approval was expected in late November, allowing it to negotiate firm purchase agreements with Airbus and Boeing.

But approval did not come in time, and there have since been elections in Thailand which have delayed the process because the party that won the most seats is still trying to put together a coalition.

Rather than continuing to wait for approval, Thai's board has decided the airline should lease 14 787-9s instead of buy them as originally planned because it will not be able to secure slots for delivery between 2012 and 2015 for purchases.

Executives said after the board meeting that the carrier expects to start seeking offers from aircraft lessors around the middle of this year and that the 787s will be used for "regional operations".

However, Thai is still planning to place orders directly with Airbus for 20 A321s, and its board has given approval for a downpayment to be made on the aircraft for deliveries between 2012 and 2017.

"The payment will be returned if the government does not approve the plan," it says.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/...-14-787-9s.html

"The 787-9 and A321 aircraft will replace those retired aircraft from Thai's fleet and be utilised to accommodate future growth in the next 10 years."

No mention is made of additional aircraft orders. Thai's request to the government in September was for the purchase of 65 narrowbodies and widebodies for delivery by 2017 and it had said these would be in addition to more than 12 Airbus A380s and Airbus A330-300s already on order.

Thai said 45 of the 65 aircraft were intended for replacement and the rest for growth, and it was looking at Boeing 747-8s or additional A380s in the 300- to 500-seat size category Airbus A350s and/or 787s in the 250- to 350-seat category and A320-family aircraft and/or Boeing 737s in the 150- to 250-seat category.

Thai's current fleet of more than 80 aircraft includes Airbus A300-600s, A330-300s, A340-500/600s, Boeing 737-400s, 747-400s and 777-200/200ER/300s.

Boeing 787 looks set for another serious delay

Pressure is growing on Boeing to provide its revised production schedule for the 787, as speculation grows that the programme has suffered another lengthy delay.

Analyst Goldman Sachs has reported today that it does not expect the first 787 to be delivered before the third quarter of next year, representing another delay of at least six months.

Citing "sources", Goldman Sachs says that power-on of the first aircraft - scheduled for the end of March - has slipped until June, which will further delay the first flight and have a knock-on affect on the planned production ramp-up.

Goldman Sachs says final assembly of other development 787 airframes has been delayed, and that it expects the flight-test programme - slated to begin three months after power-on of the first aircraft - will last 11 months.

"Boeing continues to underestimate the amount of work required on the 787," says the analyst. It adds that it has lowered its 2009 787 production forecast from 80 to 50 aircraft.

The 787 programme is already around nine months behind schedule, with flight testing originally due to start in the third quarter of last year and first deliveries scheduled for May this year.

Boeing has already begun searching for interim aircraft capacity to help early 787 customers affected by the delay. Flight sources indicate that the latest delay to the programme could be even more severe than Goldman Sachs is warning.

Boeing says that when it announced the last 78 delay in January, it stated that first deliveries would move from 2008 to early 2009 and committed “to conducting a more thorough and far-reaching assessment related to a robust delivery schedule”.

The airframer says that the “assessment is ongoing and we have committed to communicating the results to our customers around the end of the first quarter”.

It adds that “our team is working hard toward achieving the near-term milestones as we have identified them”.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/...ious-delay.html

Coincidence or… Went to Lotus in Phuket just a couple hours ago. Did some shopping and had a short look at some Pick-ups for sale on a stand there. When we ate dinner I told me wife about what I have read here about the Hilux. Here father owns one.

On the way home half an hour later passing Central and on the light curve turning against Phuket town a Pick up Hilux Vigo on the roof. Guess he have had some speed through that curve because it’s not exactly sharp.

It would be interesting to hear if others have had or seen similar accidents, where the pickups poor handling is to blame.

Bangkok Post: Workhorses fail to impress

http://www.bangkokpost.com/290208_Motoring...08_motor007.php

What do the Swedes know ?

they drive with their lights on in daytime !!

A.Partridge

You make it sound that driving with your lights on in daytime is stupid, when it in fact is very smart.

Like Jareddiving said, it is much safer.

Why do you think that that motorbikes have to have their lights on. For exact the same reason.

For all the Top Gear fans Jeremy Clarkson on the Toyota Hilux

Part 2

Of course I am a bit biased. My first car was a Toyota Hilux

Great entertainment, funny Australian advertisement, tough Toyota.

It will be interesting to see how well the Toyota Hilux will do in the Euro Cap test.

A shame the human body isn’t as tough as the car.

Euro NCAP’s test of Nissan Navara, Mitsubishi L200 and the Isuzu D-MAX/Rodeo.

Both the Nissan Navara and the Isuzu D-MAX/Rodeo received poor scores in Euro NCAP’s adult occupant rating.

The Navara achieved an extremely poor rating of a one star strikethrough.

Isuzu D-MAX/Rodeo also received a disappointing two star strikethrough rating in adult occupant protection with an unacceptably high risk of life-threatening injury to the chest region.

The best of all the pick-ups tested by Euro NCAP was the Mitsubishi L200, which received a respectable four star result in adult occupant protection. All the vehicles received disappointing child and pedestrian protection scores.

Nissan Navara NCAP front impact test. 1 point http://www.euroncap.com/tests/nissan_navara/317.aspx

The Navara's passenger compartment became unstable in the impact and would have been unable to withstand greater loading. The chassis rail collapsed on the impacted side, allowing a significant level of intrusion into the driver's footwell. As a result, the dummy readings indicated a high risk of injury to the left tibia. In addition, the accelerator pedal moved rearwards more than 200mm, presenting a further risk of injury to the driver's lower legs. Structures in the dashboard presented a hazard to the knees and femurs of both the driver and the passenger. Protection of the driver's chest was rated as weak owing to the extent to which the chest was compressed, combined with the threat posed by the unstable passenger compartment. The passenger's neck was bent rearwards in the impact, presenting a high risk of life-threatening injury. The airbags and seatbelt pretensioners were triggered late in the impact and readings from the driver dummy's head also indicated a high risk of life threatening injury. The Navara has been awarded a one star rating as its performance in frontal impact did not reach the minimum level required for a higher rating. Moreover, the unacceptably high risk of life threatening injury to the driver's head and the passenger's neck have led to that star being struck through. Nissan have already introduced a counter-measure to overcome the delayed deployment of the frontal airbags. The change has already been introduced in production cars and Nissan will contact owners to advise them to get their cars upgraded at their dealers. Euro NCAP will assess the modified car in the near future.

Isuzu D-MAX/Rodeo NCAP front impact test. 2 points http://www.euroncap.com/tests/isuzu_dmax_rodeo/316.aspx

The passenger compartment became unstable in the frontal impact and the D-MAX did not achieve the minimum number of points in this test to get a three star rating, even though it scored enough points overall. Protection of the driver's head was rated as weak. The final star is struck through because dummy readings in the neck and chest indicated an unacceptably high risk of life-threatening injury. Structures in the dashboard presented a risk of injury to the knees and femurs of both the driver and passenger. Protection of the driver's lower legs was jeopardised by excessive upward movement of the brake pedal. Protection of the driver's feet was poor, owing to a ruptured footwell and pedal movement.

Mitsubishi L200 NCAP front impact test. 9 points http://www.euroncap.com/tests/mitsubishi_l200/314.aspx

Protection of the driver's chest was rated as weak owing to the extent to which the dummy's chest was compressed in the test. The driver's footwell ruptured but the passenger compartment remained stable during the impact. Structures in the dashboard presented a risk of injury to the knees and femurs of the driver and passenger.

BMW X3 NCAP front impact test. 12 points http://www.euroncap.com/tests/bmw_x3/311.aspx

The passenger compartment remained stable in the frontal test. Structures in the dashboard presented a risk of injury to the knees and femurs of the driver and passenger.

Euro NCAP reveal mortality dangerous pickup according to the Danish Motorist organisation FDM.

Nissan Navara is a catastrof with the lowest resulsts i Euro NCAPs history.

http://www.fdm.dk/public/nyheder/biler/Sik...tre+pickups.htm

http://www.euroncap.com/Content-Web-Articl...in-new-cat.aspx

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7264155.stm

Links to other forums where the test has been taken up:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/news-blog...the-moose-test/

http://www.wikio.com/leisure/cars/toyota/toyota_hilux

http://captainsvoyage.7.forumer.com/viewto...6a1e2fc611dd955

http://tsikot.yehey.com/forums/showthread....961&page=81

Video on YouTube from the main Swedish national TV channel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZF8N9NItHI

Have anybode seen this mentioned in other English speaking media?

Has it been mentioned in any Thai media?

Do you think Toyota would do something about this? Please, keep us updated as most of us can't follow "Technical vorld" in Swedish.

Translation from ”Teknikens Värld” news:

Toyota stops the sales of the Hilux with 16” wheels in Europe.

After “Teknikens Värld” revealed the Toyota Hilux dangerous behavior in the elk/mouse test, the sale of Hilux with 16” wheels in whole of Europe. – Under certain conditions the tires lift even for us, says Michel Koch, product information manager with Toyota Europe.

In “Teknikens Värld” number 23, we tested sex of the markets most popular pickups. In our revealing evasive maneuver test – the elk/mouse test – the Toyota Hilux was on the way to turn over. But we managed just in time to get the car down again by steering our of the test track.

The Hilux competitors all managed without turnover tendencies. Best was Mitsubishi L200 which was the only pickup equipped with an anti spin system (ESP).

Since we publishing the test, the test result have spread to a number of different countries. This because the Hilux is sold in almost the whole world. “Teknikens Värld”s reputation and good name have made media’s from New Zealand to parts of the Middle East, Iceland, Russia and Norway; take up the news in a big way, just to count a few countries.

Since we discovered the Hilux dangerous characteristics, we have continuous exchange information with Toyota. The car company has taken the result seriously and we naturally want their car buyers to feel safe. Now Toyota chooses to stop the sale of the Hilux cars equipped with 16 inch wheels.

– We have repeated our tests, taken part of your magazines results and tested with your conditions for the elk test. Under certain circumstance we felt that the wheels can lift in an evasive maneuver. Not at all as powerful as for you, but serious enough, says Michel Koch, product information manager from Toyota Europe.

Under our elk test with the Hilux shooed with 15 inches, we also discovered worrying characteristics.

– We don’t question your test data or the way you did the test. But we don’t consider that the 15 inch version behave dangerously, says Michel Koch from Toyota Europe.

Toyota in Japan has since “Teknikens Värld”s test results were published, constantly tested and investigated the Hilux. These tests will continue, confirms Michel Koch. Teknikens Värld’s test team will also, together with Toyota, do new elk tests to investigate the car further.

The original article in Swedish:

http://www.teknikensvarld.se/nyheter/07111...valta/index.xml

You didn't get my point.

I didn't say that you look degrading in a pickup.

My point was that only rich can buy cars with the right safety equipment.

The cheap sedans from Toyota & Hondo etc. doesn't have this equipment.

Vigo might have failed the test, but I bet Isuzu's tipping point is just 5km/h or so faster.

Those 5km/h might just save your life.

Do any other consumer/safety publications, that perform independent testing, through out the world concur with the Swedish results?? Or is it possible specific to Toyota trucks manufactured or imported into Sweden?

Don't belive for a second that cars imported to Sweden is more unsafe than the ones sold in Thailand.

In Sweden safety is important to most buyer, in Thailand often not.

If anything the cars sold in Sweden have more safety equipment than the ones sold Thailand.

I don't think that many, if any, motoring magazines testdrive cars as thorough as "Teknikens Värd".

Where do you see a grouptest of 6 cars that take up 22 full pages?

Pickup trucks the world over are not as safe and don't handle as well as cars. They're light in the rear end (designed for hauling heavy objects) and have a high center of gravity. If you try driving them as you would a high performance car, all the safety features in the world aren't going to make much of a difference!

I totally disagree.

A ESC/ESP will greatly improve safety, specially on a pickup.

It is true that it will never make it as safe as a real car, but it will make it much safer in turns.

Even a high center of gravity vehicle can be made much safer with these systems.

Modern pickups look modern and good on the outside.

Why must all that really matter for safety still be at the stone age level?

Should we really accept this in 2007?

Pickups still use leafsprings as they did when a vehicle only had between 1 & 4 horsepower.

Why ? Because this mean much lower tax in Thailand.

A modern spring system can be made to take the same kind of load, while greatly improve comfort and drivability.