just plain different

How about you think up of some way to sort this problem of yours out, or even better ask this forum to think of a solution to your road crossing dilemma.

Once you find it out be sure to let every other person in CM know to so they can cross the road safely.

Comments in general....

I drive and when I see a red light at a pedestrian crossing with no one in sight I run it.

I cross roads, but I all ways look left then right and then left and right again.

Ahhhh look here’s your solution to your road crossing dilemma.

"All ways look left then right and then left and right again"

I'm not gonna say if you don't like it leave the country or anything like that, but that’s the way it is here.

Lets turn this situation around! Not in the same scenario but something to go on.

If a Thai came to England and posted a thread on "UKVISA.COM"

Why do the Brits have their own separate meals and not have lots of separate dishes and share together when they eat.

I can't get over how crazy it is bla bla bla.

-------------------

I think you might get similar responses to the ones your getting now.

(Sorry for the lame example but all I’m thinking of at the mo is England and thinking that you should be thinking of your home countries prospects for the world cup instead of how <deleted> the Thais/Farangs drive in Chiang Mai)

Ash

Your analogy doesn't work because the number of dishes one is served isn't a matter of consideration for other human beings, but rather just a custom. Your "solution" to my "problem" also doesn't work because: a) I made an observation and didn't say I had any "problem." and there isn't any question of my ability to see or judge oncoming traffic.

Let me give you another example and see if you can wrap your mind around it. Some Thais, and lots of Vietnamese think it's just fine to cut in line in front of one. Ever have this happen? Ever have 3 or 4 or 5 people cut in line in front of you? Happens a lot in Vietnam. Well, let's say you don't particularly dig this proclivity, and you bring it up on an internet forum. Then someone tells you, "That's the way it is here. You can't do anything about it. Accept it or get out!" It might cross your mind that the person who wrote that to you is a bit of an ass.

Then, another person might write that what you should do is look infront of you, then look behind you, and that will solve your "problem" in lines in Vietnam.

I don't think anyone mentioned this, but, at least in BKK, some places work a tip into the bill. I've gone to pay a bill only to have my Thai girlfriend point out that I'd already been charged a gratuity.

I tend to tip more at little places run by the same people that work there. I figure I'm giving the money direclty to them.

Just today I kept trying to tell a lady at one inexpensive restaurant that I didn't need change, but she insisted on giving it back to me.

But WHAT CAN YOU DO ABOUT IT?

NOTHING !!!

This is the way it is here..accept it or leave...

Ha, ha, ha, ha. See my OP on not liking something but accepting that it exists. I just LOVE people who give other people "leave the country" ultimatums. I wouldn't even think of doing that to a foreigner in my own country of origin; but to be an expat in Thailand giving other people ultimatums -- that's rich. Thanks for the chuckle.

I agree with you that it is not easy for pedestrians to cross roads here..bt its harder in BK.

This came from somewhere else but I was told that when a Thai gets into a car they DO remove themselves to a different plain and feel invincible....It has also been said that "Thais drive like they have just stolen the car they are driving"!

However these are just suppositions.. when my Wife drives me..she is extremely careful (she has only had 5 accidents in 18 months) ..I know she is concentrating hard...mostly on NOT having an accident....she is so well aquainted with the Insurance Assesor she gets a Christmas card from him!!

ALSO..you can "Buy" your driving test (well you can in BK) for just 1000 Baht, not take the test and get your license! If you are Thai.

So if you imagine that say 1 in 10 people are not qualified to drive even BEFORE they have had a drink its no wonder that Thailand has a death rate among Motorists 10 times higher than the UK..A country with a similar poulation size.

But WHAT CAN YOU DO ABOUT IT?

NOTHING !!!

This is the way it is here..accept it or leave...you will probably have a much higher risk of being injured in a Car Crash here than in the west... but a far higher risk of being mugged back home.

Take your pick

TP

Oh shit, I better mention this before someone attacks me. There ARE EXCEPTIONS! There are some Thais that do slow down and have even waved me across. These tend to be the older Thais. I only walk, so I have a fair amount of experience with traffic, here and in Bangkok. Wasn't as bad in BKK in my experience because there are a LOT more pedestrians and cross traffic. You can't just barrel down a road like you own it without being suicidal in BKK.

"Wind up" meaning "flame". Yes, it is always easy to annoy people by flaming them....

If you can manage an intelligent comment I might trouble myself to think about and respond to it, but somehow I think an intelligent comment won't be forthcoming.

On the contrary, not the same, but I wouldn't expect you to understand the difference. You're right! You are not going to get an intelligent comment on this thread, it just doesn't merit the effort....Now let's all get on with a fun rainy saturday afternoon

Please, be my guest. Move on and leave off the trolling. I'm not stopping you or the rest of the forum whom you arrogantly presume to speak for.

By the waty, were there elections that I missed? When you say, "You are not going to get an intelligent comment on this thread," is that because you are the elected representative of all posters and either know or control what they might write? When you say, "let's all get on with a fun rainy saturday afternoon," are you in a room with all the other posters who are nodding in agreement, or are you alone inflating yourself up to believe you speak for everyone else?

Just speak for yourself. Let you argument carry it's own weitght. You don't need to pretend to be a mob.

let me sum it up then...

the thais here drive like <deleted> and have no respest for the laws of the road,yet,when a farang twice their size walks down the sidewalk like he owns the place,they get out of the way.

did I miss something?

Yeah. My point was that Thais are courteous when walking on the sidewalk--irrespective of the size of the Farang--but they aren't when they are in their cars. If the Farang is older and puny, they may stoop to try and lower themselves beneath him. But once in their cars, if he happens to cross their path, there's no such thing as a "break".

"Wind up" meaning "flame". Yes, it is always easy to annoy people by flaming them....

If you can manage an intelligent comment I might trouble myself to think about and respond to it, but somehow I think an intelligent comment won't be forthcoming.

On the contrary, not the same, but I wouldn't expect you to understand the difference. You're right! You are not going to get an intelligent comment on this thread, it just doesn't merit the effort....Now let's all get on with a fun rainy saturday afternoon

Please, be my guest. Move on and leave off the trolling. I'm not stopping you or the rest of the forum whom you arrogantly presume to speak for.

By the waty, were there elections that I missed? When you say, "You are not going to get an intelligent comment on this thread," is that because you are the elected representative of all posters and either know or control what they might write? When you say, "let's all get on with a fun rainy saturday afternoon," are you in a room with all the other posters who are nodding in agreement, or are you alone inflating yourself up to believe you speak for everyone else?

Just speak for yourself. Let you argument carry it's own weitght. You don't need to pretend to be a mob.

I'm gonna' pass on doing the song and dance with flamers. No offense if I don't like offense, I hope. Nobody feel hurt if I don't bother responding to flung shit.

Ever hear the expression "wind up"? Seems to work every time here Quite frankly I found your post of no earthly use, other than to fill up forum space, and that's my obsevation However, it's a free world so they say, and we are all entitled to out obsevations......

"Wind up" meaning "flame". Yes, it is always easy to annoy people by flaming them, almost as easy as spitting at them. It takes much more character to ignore such sad little attacks… Keep that in mind when your future little gibes meat only stoney silence.

If you can manage an intelligent comment I might trouble myself to think about and respond to it, but somehow I think an intelligent comment won't be forthcoming.

Can I try in vain to rescue a topic that's going nowhere?

First, I can't recall a button to push for pedestrians; it's every person for theirselves. Mai bpen rai

The construction on those overpasses for the outer ring - will they be finished before 2552? I mean on the Thai calendar...

In my one year of absence, how many songtaew have been replaced by taximeters that use the meter? Both of them?

I know of three crossings with buttons. I thought everyone knew the one at Thai Pae gate.

Do posts normally go somewhere? Those should get gold starts.

Make that 4 crossings with buttons. Just remembered another.

Uhhh, five…

Was there a point that I missed somewhere in all that diatribe just plain different?

Obviously more than one. You might do well to review the last sentence.

I'm gonna' pass on doing the song and dance with flamers. No offense if I don't like offense, I hope. Nobody feel hurt if I don't bother responding to flung shit.

I’ve waited more than a couple weeks to continue this discussion. Thought I’d let everyone cast their votes, and I preferred to avoid getting caught up in all the self-incriminating “you’ll never last in Thailand” sort of flames from those who apparently have no social skills anywhere.

I will hold fast that in the conflict between me and Thai traffic, I am not in the wrong. Pedestrians should be able to cross streets without people barreling down at them and expecting them to leap out of the way or flatten themselves against walls (such as when a car plows through a soi). There seem to be a lot of flamers here, who have adapted to the Thai lifestyle and particularly the precepts and noble path set down by the Buddha so extraordinarily well, that I am forced to point out that someone can identify a problem in a given country while also accepting it’s existence, hence “adapting”.

First, let’s simplify things by addressing incidents where the pedestrian can’t be construed by the most heroic attempts of internet trolls to be in the wrong. A pedestrian is cautiously crossing at a light after having pushed the button and the light turned green. Still, some cars will not even slow down, and, yes, some of those sorts of drivers are Farang who think, “When in Rome”. Let’s also assume that the driver who isn’t slowing down is NOT at risk of being rear-ended if he or she does so. This example isn’t far-fetched, as I’ve seen it happen plenty of times and have also been that pedestrian. And no it isn’t natural or inevitable that motorists should feel free to mow down pedestrians, cyclists…, because it’s completely different in neighboring Laos and Vietnam.

In Vietnam one is supposed to not even look at the traffic while crossing the road because it can confuse the drivers and cause accidents. Everyone assumes and accepts that it is the driver’s sole responsibility to go around the pedestrians. Note to trolls/flamers – I might actually have a hard time fully adapting to that!

If you go to Laos, in my experience, the traffic situation isn’t a problem. I spent a couple months in Laos and rode a bicycle every chance I got. I felt perfectly safe and there was never a problem. In fact, I think I was the most dangerous thing on the road, because, coming from Bangkok, I had the “anything goes” attitude. I don’t know why the motorists in Laos were so much more considerate—and consideration and courtesy are the REAL issue here—but suppose it has to do with the laws and the enforcement thereof.

But, in Chiang Mai, a lot of motorists don’t stop even when you have the green. This is particularly striking when the same motorist, when he gets out of his car, might lower himself respectfully while walking by the same man he might have slaughtered with his vehicle. Interestingly, Thais NEVER walk into me when I walk on the street, nor do they expect me to get out of their way (we can compromise). Compare that with walking around in Manhattan.

I’m starting to think that when Thais get into their cars, or even just on their bikes, it’s as if they adopt a cloak of anonymity that allows them to be complete inconsiderate A-holes [the Farang that drive in the same style probably are very honestly the same inconsiderate SOBs face-to-face]. Maybe being Terminators on the road is an outlet for Thais who have to at all other times act deferentially. This is their chance to be completely selfish and inconsiderate, to the extent that if a pedestrian doesn’t leap out of the way fast enough, he or she will honk at them to remind them that they are mere animal dung.

To me it’s kind of ironic that Thai transform so completely when they get behind a wheel. And no, we aren’t talking about pedestrians brazenly leaping into busy roadways and break dancing. We’re talking about situations where people are merely trying to get from point A to point B, including crossing where there are lights.

Now, before any of you go on about how I won't last here and all that sort of crap (I've already been here too long to "not last") -- I'm just making an observation. Agree with it or disagree. Share some knowlege. But keep your member in your pants 'cause there's no one to screw here.

So, the Thai - Myanmar boarders where we do our VISA runs are the malaria hot spots? Guess we should all apply some of the more serious repellent when making the run then.

You don't mean "walk in the middle of the road," you mean, "cross the road". Roads are intended both for vehicles to drive on and for people to cross over, or else people couldn't get from point A to point B without getting in a vehicle -- they'd be stuck within the confines of one block. In the West, at least, it is generally accepted that when people are crossing a road, one doesn't have the right to barrel down on them expecting them to leap out of the way or be plowed into. You may have heard the phrase, "the pedestrian always has the right of way".

In Thailand the larger vehicle has the right of way. Motorbike beats pedestrian, car beats motorbike etc.

Yeah, I've made this same observation. I wonder if it's law, or just practice. it's just one of those things, like people cutting in line, that one has to take along with all the good stuff. But, as I said, I still slip up now and again and bristle at actions (such as Thais cutting in line) that are a bit behind the Western model. In other ways they are ahead, such as in allowing lady-boys to go to their everyday jobs in drag. In the West, those individuals might not even make it to work without harm. Each culture has it's strengths and weaknesses.

Well, anyway, yeah, I admit I have a few wrinkles to iron out in my adapting to Thai culture. Gotta' say though, my whole day was awesome up until the fated songtaew ride. The people at the bus stations, on the buses, in Chiang Rai, in Mae Sai, in immigration at the border on both sides, and in Myanmar were all super nice = probably why the screaming driver amused rather than upset me.

I didn’t scramble out of the way and duck for cover, but just kept walking at my same pace as if I weren’t in a country where any vehicle has the right to mow down pedestrians like mangy Soi dogs.

So what country is it safe to walk in the middle of the road?

Even in England or the States I wouldnt think or take for granted that a car was going to slowdown for me when I'm walking in the road, which is the place for cars and bikes.

You don't mean "walk in the middle of the road," you mean, "cross the road". Roads are intended both for vehicles to drive on and for people to cross over, or else people couldn't get from point A to point B without getting in a vehicle -- they'd be stuck within the confines of one block. In the West, at least, it is generally accepted that when people are crossing a road, one doesn't have the right to barrel down on them expecting them to leap out of the way or be plowed into. You may have heard the phrase, "the pedestrian always has the right of way".

I KNOW it's different here, even if one is at a crosswalk and has the green light. The pedestrian is expected to fend for his or her life, just the same as a Soi dog crossing the street. This gets a little ridiculous when there's just one pedestrian and one motorbike on a street (not a Soi), and the motorbike intends to force the pedestrian to flee or suffer the consequences.

THAT explains it. I didn't know there was a buzzer in songtaews. I've rode them before, but never needed it and never saw anyone use it. Never had a problem. I'm surprised none of the Thais hit the buzzer for me, since they seemed to know esxactly what was going on.

Sure, if the guy hand't screamed and yelled at me, and instead turned around and took me to my Soi, I'd have tipped him. But, when he yelled at me to get out, and ran back to his cab, I kinda' thought he was just so ticked he didn't care about the money and was happy to punish me by verbally abusing me and making me walk 4 blocks in pounding rain. I didn't realize I was supposed to take the well-deserved insults and abuse, and then meekly go to the cab to pay my inflated Farang price.

If I missed my stop on a bus, of course I wouldn't expect the driver to take me back (he's got a set route), and wouldn't expect to not pay. But I also wouldn't expect to get hollered at for it, in front of the other passengers, and get kicked out of the bus.

Thanks for the sympathetic ear.

Did I do something really that wrong, or was it the Thai drivers?

Incident 1:

Today I had a great VISA run, which I thoroughly enjoyed, including chewing betel nut in Tachiliek with Burmese (it has a nice kick and I even brought some back with me), and climbing up to explore the temple and view from the Mae Sae side.

Ironically, the hardest part of the whole trip was getting to and from the Arcade bus terminal in Chiang Mai, and the way back gets a special award for being my single most unpleasant experience with a Thai to date.

I agreed on 30 baht to get to my Soi in the old city in the pouring rain. The guy's songtaew was missing some windows (or should I call them sliding plastic pieces?), and so everyone was getting drenched until someone opened his umbrella in the back to block the worst of the spray. The open umbrella, combined with the sheets of rain, made visibility from the back difficult, but I could still see when the driver passed up my Soi.

I wasn’t sure what to do. I gestured and everyone else knew what had happened but also looked perplexed as to what to do about it. There was no opening to the cab to communicate with the driver. On reflection I should have pounded on the glass, and not doing so was, I guess, where I screwed up. I just waited to see if he was dropping off someone else first, or when he’d figure out he missed my Soi. I couldn’t even leap out to tell him until he finally stopped the truck.

He circled to the back and started gesticulating and yelling at me in Thai. I say, “You passed it up, what was I supposed to do?” I asked. Didn’t really know how to say that, or scream it, in Thai. He indicated I was to get the hel_l out and walk back (about 4 blocks) in the pounding rain, then he circled back to the shelter of the cab. So, I got out, open my new compact Mae Sae emergency umbrella, and start hiking back. This seemed to surprise the Thais in the back of the truck. Crazy Farang behavior.

Naturally, the guy came flying after me screaming again, “money, money, money.” I said, “You didn’t take me there.” I suppose it was unthinkable for him to turn the truck around and take me to my agreed upon destination, seeing as, even with my little umbrella, my feet and sandals were submerged in a puddle and I was getting soaked from the waste down.

After some quick mental processing I decided not to do any mud wrestling with him, and took out my wallet to give him the money. He then snatched the umbrella from me to shield himself. I didn’t have 30 baht exactly and suspected change wouldn’t be forthcoming, so I gave him a 20 and said, “Yee-sip baht, gor laao gan” (20 baht, and that’s final).

He grabbed the money and slapped me across the chin, more in a gesture of angry disgust than to inflict any pain. Now, I know he had to have lost face big time. In fact, I never even got mad, and I pretty much laughed the whole way home because the situation was just too ridiculous.

I can take some pleasure in knowing the guy got pretty drenched coming after me. Maybe in Thai culture I was wrong. In the West I think I was in the right. So, a clash of civilizations. But, I think I partly learned how to laugh it off from the Thais.

Incident 2:

4 or 5 days ago I was crossing a street, almost home from a long walk in the blazing heat and sauna-like humidity. Coming at me like a torpedo was a lone motorbike. This time I knowingly broke the rules. I didn’t scramble out of the way and duck for cover, but just kept walking at my same pace as if I weren’t in a country where any vehicle has the right to mow down pedestrians like mangy Soi dogs.

I’d just seen Mission Impossilbe 3, and maybe I was still wearing brass balls from having vicariously partaken in 2 hours of Tom Cruise’s character’s bravado antics. But, mostly, I just couldn’t muster the energy to throw myself into a mad panic, even when the driver of the bike started honking at me.

He slowed down at the last second to curse me out in Thai while doing something like flipping me the bird, only his hands aimed down instead of up. Couldn’t see his face through his helmet shield. I called out, “May dai yin. May kao jai” (I didn’t hear. I don’t understand). He stopped his bike, possibly contemplating turning around an attempting assaulting me -- here, I would have mustered the energy to defend my person – then thought better of it and continued on his angry way. Again, I got a few chuckles out of the incident, partly because so often Thais have ticked me off trying to rip me off, and yet if I were to get heated I’d automatically be in the wrong.

This was another clash of civilizations, I suppose. I know pedestrians have no rights here, but I still remember that I’m not just in Thailand, but on the planet Earth, and you can’t just mow people down when all your have to do is turn your wrist a fraction of an inch to go around them. I am probably wrong again, and usually I jump around like a cricket in a frying pan to get out of the way of traffic. Sometimes I slip up, though.

The hard truth is I’d better forget any other perspective, and accept that in a songtaew or tuk-tuk, or on the street, I’m less than human (my clinging to a fragment of humanity is obviously an enormously offensive faux-pas), or else, I’m bound to pay the price in blood, bone, baht, and more.

But was I really that wrong, or were these special “hai rawn” Thais, or both?

Go to school every day in Chiang Mai, then go home to speak to English with the missus or bar girls & you're wasting your time. To learn, you need to practice & IMHO the best place to practice is where they don’t speak English, then you have to use & think Thai.

My Thai is OK, but Ajarn is one of the best around, however, I found that getting LOTS of massages and talking to the girls does wonders for your Thai language skills and you don't have to go out into the boonies to use what you have learned.

There is much truth in this! In the same day I happened to get a private Thai tutoring lesson (1 hr = 150b) and a massage (2hr for 200b). If one can speak some Thai, and the girls figure it out, they like to talk. Well, they don't "tutor" but they keep up the talking, and to each other (which I know is distracting to other customers and also compromises the massage a bit).

Overal, on reflection, I got about as much Thai practice during my 2 hour massage as I did in my 1 hour of tutoring, AND I got a massage. No special massage, though.

Another topic. As to transliteration methods, I've been exposed to a few different ones, and it doesn't make much difference which one you use. You just have to learn it's rules. If one uses symbols that aren't in the English language, no biggie.

'Nother thing. I find watching Thai TV is good practice, though I'm not quite at the level where I pick up enough that it would be really good practice. But, even if I just pick up some new vocabulary, some of those words will inevitably pop up while watching Thai TV.

Thanks for the tips. Seems I'm going to be on a tighter schedule than I anticipated because of unforseen appointments. Guess I'll make more of an adventure about it next time around. Looks like I'm going to be making a monthly voyage so there'll be plenty of opportunity.

Chiang Rai is OK, but I've been there already. I'll wing it. If I'm tired i may stay a night in Mae Sae, but I guess doing it all in one day will make it seem less of an ordeal in my many probably future trips.

2. ######, I'm out of crappy little photos & haven't noticed where I can get some flattering new ones. I need a couple, right?

Don't worry, they are not required

Really? I needed them everywhere else and that's why I ran out. Well, I have just ONE left. Now I remember a photo place in the mall when I can get my next batch. I'll need 'em in the future if not now.

Ok, I did my duty and read up on what I could easily find on the topic here before posting. Good stuff, but I have a few little particulars to ask about.

1. How often does the bus go from CM to Mae Sae? What's the best time to brutally tear myself out of bed before noon?

2. ######, I'm out of crappy little photos & haven't noticed where I can get some flattering new ones. I need a couple, right?

3. I've fooled myself into thinking I'm going on a trip, not just a necessary run. What about a side trip to close by places like Chiang Saen? Maybe break up the marathon bus ride?

4. Oh, this one's important. Can I cross everyday including Sunday? And, if my VISA expirres on the 15th, does that mean I have to renew it on the 15th or before the 15th.?

5. I assume the facilities on the bus include just holding it in.

6. Anyone spend the night in Mae Sae and come back the next day?

OK, thanks.