jii

i dont agree with your reasoning.

either make it unlimited border runs to which most of asia is already. so many countries i could give as examples where so many people that i know are there on tourist visas way over 6 months of the year.

or do none of your other suggestions and make it a simple 180 days out of every calander year for the 41 countries that most ly dont cause trouble. lets explain that for the year 2007 you have 180 days no matter if you came at the beginning or and the end. ok then in 2008 you could stay for another 180 days right after but after that you must leave and can not come back even on a tourist visa until 2009. also all tourist visa or free visa exempt visas count towards the same time in thailand.

why do you have make everything so complicated? your suggestions even using a computer does not at all end the mass confusion of not knowing just what are the rules. and also there are 4 differnet immigrations in thailand all have dff rules. some are fixed 6 months some are a rolling 6 months. all of the immigration must also come to a common policy.

Another spanner in the works!

Take the first six month period from Oct 22nd to Apr 21st and the guy does the same visit pattern.

Second six month period is from Apr 22nd to Oct 21st. But this time he doesn't return to Thailand until Oct 15th.

Will he only get six days then have to do a border run?

The more you look at this the more you realise what a mess they've created. It's looking more and more like they've got three options:-

1. Forget the 90/180 rule and let it slip back to the old ways. Wishfull thinking for some but unlikely in the extreme.

2. Abolish back to back visa exemption stamps and introduce a minimum separation period, say seven days. Not good for genuine tourists who want to do a weekend trip to Siem Reap or Singapore.

3. Abolish the visa exemption stamp altogether, and this has been discussed on another thread. Again not good for genuine tourists nor people working in neighbouring countries but not close to a Thai embassy or consulate.

There is a fourth option to install a computerised database to track the entry and exit of all visitors on visa exemption stamps. Can be done at the airports but what about all the land crossing points? Even if they did this the visitors themselves need to know exactly how it's calculated so they can plan their trips.

funny enough today while reading the bangkok post here some expert does mention the global warming that i did say will completely put bangkok under water. i have read 10-15 years while this guy thinks 20 years. and again what is the thai govement doing about absolutely nothing positve and then making the problems worse. oh i dont want to get too much off track but that tsunami that 10 000 people died in thailand. everyone said oh mother nature cant do anything about that. that is crap they had 2 hours was it to warn people but did not want to as they were afraid it would hurt tourism. then there was the fact that many hotels in the tsunmai areas were built illegally way way to close to the ocean so they could get more money for the rooms. so once again so many of the apparent people dieing in natural diasters was totally preventable.

my carbon footprint on the world is so little compared to many you cant pin me as being responsible. i take the subway. have not taking a plane ride in over 5 years. ok i do eat meat. but its 100 percent is everyone had the same lifestystyle i had carbon released to the atmosphere would not be a problem now.

Bangkok gets that sinking feeling

BangkokPost.com from Reuters reports

Thailand's best known disaster prognosticator said on Wednesday global warming will put Bangkok a metre under water in less than 20 years, adding: "You will need a motorboat instead of a car."

Smith Dharmasaroja, head of Thailand's National Disaster Warning Centre, told the Reuters news agency that rising seas and natural sinking will put Bangkok under water by 2025 - unless work starts now on a huge dyke to protect the capital.

"If nothing is done, Bangkok will be at least 50 centimetres to one metre under water," Reuters quoted Mr Smith as saying during an interview in Bangkok.

Mr Smith gained notoriety 12 years ago when he predicted Thailand was in danger of being hit by a tsunami. Largely dismissed as a crackpot and retired from government service with the Meteorological Department, he was brought back as a disaster expert after the 2004 tsunami, which killed more than 5,000 people in Thailand alone.

The problem, he says, is two-fold.

The city is subsiding at a rate of 10cm per year, partly due to excessive pumping of underground water.

Global warming is causing seas to rise and there is evidence of severe coastal erosion just downstream from Bangkok.

To avert disaster, Smith said, the city needed to construct a massive dyke to protect it from rising seas and increasingly violent storms.

"The system has to be started right now. Otherwise it will be too late to protect our capital city," he said.

Mr Smith, as usual, was scathing when asked about how authorities are facing the threat.

"The government does not pay any attention at all."

well now that many have suggested that thailand is quite vunerably naturally then the why the hel_l has thailand been so recklessly making the problem even worse than it would be naturally? even a person with average intelligence realizes that if you naturally have a big problem youd certainly would be quite strict at anyone making it worse?

oh some people say bangkok will be competly under water in 10-15 years thanks to global warming. (and if you want to find those people they are at the UN building in bangkok some 200 scientists the last week for the international discussion on global warming.

Is THAT such a bad thing??c

ok you are right. but if you want to do something there are many simple things that can be done.

BUT a very simple solution would be to be very strict on anyone that does anything that would make the problem worse such as deforestation, filling in klongs, filling in swamps, changing the characteristics of the natural flood plains. that does not cost anything. only about 1 hour of someone using their brain.

some countries know what they are doing. for example before at a frineds place in canada there was a river that every spring from the snow melting overfloed and many times alot of drity water went into people basements in their houses.

guess what they did they got dam tough on anyone changing the river flowing (hard to explain) and spent 10 million dollars and built additional artifical rivers to take the excess. guess what every since it was done which has been over 20 years the problem once a menance has been completely solved. 4 feet of snow melting could produce a ton of water.

the most idiotic thing the thai govmerent did was build the airport in bangkoks natural flood plain.

The Dutch guy is wrong . I'm from Belgium , which is as you know , very close to Holland . We in Belgium do got a lot of dikes also for protection agains floods . They still occur but a lot less often !!! This is a very important statement which i will explain . In Belgium or Holland we have rain ... yes sometimes a lot ... ( very very dry this year ) but this is happening in long periods of time . I mean it starts to rain , sometimes hard ... then less then harder ....etc etc etc ... for long periods of time . Most of the flash floods in Thailand happen due to very very very strong rainfall in short time . There is no way any dikesystem can prevent that ( within reasonable costs , same in Holland/Belgium where they also have flood area's ). To much water in to less time brings on flash floods , in Thailand and in Holland also . It aren't the rivers which give the floods in many cases or the sea neither ( in Holland/ Belgium it is ) , it just does not have enough time to get to the river . BTW i don't call wet feet a flash flood ....

well now that many have suggested that thailand is quite vunerably naturally then the why the hel_l has thailand been so recklessly making the problem even worse than it would be naturally? even a person with average intelligence realizes that if you naturally have a big problem youd certainly would be quite strict at anyone making it worse?

oh some people say bangkok will be competly under water in 10-15 years thanks to global warming. (and if you want to find those people they are at the UN building in bangkok some 200 scientists the last week for the international discussion on global warming.

what is the thai response on global warming. look at all the thais that just have a car most of reason being vanity. and just take a look at how many vechicles there are in bangkok. all belching tons of pollution as if you did not know the average speed in bangkok is only 10 km.hour. idling all the times if very very polluting.

what did the stupid thai goverment do on there forced 10 percent ethanol addied to gasoline was it that was to be law as of the start of the new year. they completly went back on there word. they have no crediblity. with people in power like this thailand is doomed to ecological disaster.

then there the islands and the coast line. i have read as the rampant tourism has already had a very negative effect on the water environment.

so really perhaps comparing holland and thailand is apples and oranges but thailand environmental record is anything to be proud of.

Since I had my contacts with Thailand I see often: floods here, floods there.

We in the Netherlands started to build dikes for that, from about 11th century. Not against rivers , but also as protection against the sea.

When I see around in Thailand, I donot see anything of these.

Why ?

Without proper water defense, you will have wet feet always. Ask New Orleans.

Because all rivers in this part of the world are monsoon rivers, which run dry during 6-8 months but which can produce severe flooding during 3 or 4 months. Rainfall in the Netherlands is relatively equally spread all over the year, contrary to this part of the world where all the waterfall and discharge takes place during barely 4-5 months. Mekong water levels raise for instance with 9 to 11 meter... what sort of dikes could be contructed over there?

The obstructions of buildings and houses are hampering the normal run-off of the river and are holding up the water which levels continues to raise with the known consequence of flooding.

Flash flood is a phenomenon by which all the rainwater from a great number of effluants arrives into the river at a certain point simultaneously. When local heavy rainfall is matching the geometry of the basin to have this simultaneous arrival, then the result is a very surprising and sudden upsurge of water like the one which killed >40 people in Trang lately.

no the dutch boy is right. you have let thailand off the hook way to easily. while im not saying it could be 100 percent or even 50 percent flood proof alot more could be done or not done. but in thailand always short term greed always wins out. for one thing thaialand has a very serious deforestation problem. who is responsilble for that? thai pepole?

then there are a quite few of the klongs in bangkok that have been completely filled and are now roads. boy that was smart.

then there is the stupid new airport built in a flood plain. that was natural drainage for floods in bangkok. and they further are thinking of building a city in it.

the list goes on and on.

and just what have they done in the same ways to stop flooding as what holland has done? near zero i bet. also too holland aint the only country just off the top of my head japan has done alot as well.

Since I had my contacts with Thailand I see often: floods here, floods there.

We in the Netherlands started to build dikes for that, from about 11th century. Not against rivers , but also as protection against the sea.

When I see around in Thailand, I donot see anything of these.

Why ?

Without proper water defense, you will have wet feet always. Ask New Orleans.

Take a gander at a map. For starters, the Netherlands is 41,526 SQ KM vs. Thailand's 514,000 SQ KM (more than 12 x smaller than Thailand]. Thailand has much, much more coastline than the Netherlands and many more rivers. Sure more could be done here, but there is no way they are going to entirely protect against flooding everywhere here as the job would be 1000s of times greater than that required in your country. Thailand also has elevated areas (hills, mountains) that are factors in flooding too, features that are sorely lacking in your vertically-challenged country. How about building some mountains now that you have conquered the sea?

[ijust dont understand why few seem to get the message. the thai goverment does not want people to follow the rules. they want you to GET OUT. come hel_l or high water get out.

they will twist the apparent rules any which way they can until they have rid the country of every non thai. or at least as much as they can get away with.

if it was just a simple case of lets gets people following the rules then why did they change the work permit rules 5 times in 2 years? simple reason further ways to rid the country of non thais.

why at immigration points have the thai immigration screwed people without remorse? screaming?

further if it just case of following the rules right now for anyone to justify what they are doing? and why there has been zero help trying to get info out of bangkok immgration exactly what the rules are and how a person can stay on the right side of the law? i got one friend how tried to do everything 100 percent correct as he was told he got screwed over real bad.

why does no one seem to understand this?

totally disagree. please provide your total experience in malaysia?

the food nope malaysian better

the music - what music?

the ladies - yes and no. actually ive seen many more beautiful ones in malaysia but unlike thai women they aint easy. if you want one youd better be serious and become an muslim. actually i have a very good fiend who went thru the whole conversion process as he had to if he wanted to marry a muslim. he said the islam religion was very hypocritical. well i never said it was perfect. but malaysia still is better.

the culture - every country has one. you just have to look

the nightlife - well 15 years ago was better and cheaper than now and stayed open all night. and funny enough i know more than a few people here so fed up with the boring nightlife here that they take all their holidays to the philipines.

the economy - the thai economy is very unsatble id never suggest anyone to invest in thailand now. there is no govement they are answerable to no one.

have you actually been to malaysia your comments dirty, unfreindly, polluted, arrogant are not the case at all,

Why is anyone still in Thailand?

The food.

The music.

The ladies.

The culture.

The nightlife.

The economy.

Malayasia is a dirty, unfriendly, polluted, arrogant, radical society where smoking is promoted but alcohol is discouraged.

Most people are looking for a place to live, not a place to invest.

well ive got tons of expeience in malaysia i can comment on this. malaysia aint 1 country its 3. the 3 being the chinese the indians and the malay in no particular order. now ive notice in k.l. that the malays may be the less friendlier and im thinking deliberately dont tell you info that you may ask. the chinese and indians there although many have converted to islam or already were. have not experineced that with them. i do think that george bush has helped the world pick a side. while many before might have been sitting on the fense. but the inidans and chinese of malaysia whether islam or not for the most part have not at all felt hostiltiy towards foreigners. i would say what you are saying is possible. but you right now tell me exactly how much hands on exerience you have with malaysia?

i still think the north of malaysia the people are fine and have never had problems with them. the only negaitve i could see why some would not want to stay would fine the place boring. one thnk in the whole island of penang there aint one movie theatre. all closed from pirated cds. well i think one indian cinema has reopened.

Malaysia is no garden party either. There are lots of reports that radical Islamic policies are gaining even more influence there. We all choose our basket of risks in life.

id agree. ive been to malaysia about 30 times or so over the years and have met the people and had many discussions about thailand and malaysia. we have always came to the same conclusions. k.l. not so nice but im thinking the northern malaysia areas not a bad idea at all for a long time stay. sure it does have the drinking scene like thailand doesnt bother me one bit. i strongly think malaysia be a great choice for an older western that could not speak the language as alot can speak english. also people in malaysia drive at half the speed of thailand. then the fact they do have international hospitals at the same level of bumrungrad but at much cheaper price. then the food. i actually prefer the food of malaysia to thailand. that second home scheme they have i actually read the whole conditions and it does look quite good. altough i have nothing like the money required that you need. but ive even read if you are married to a malaysian you can also work at any job in malaysia. yet another you cant do in thailand.

thais are way to proud and full of themselves.

Why is anyone still in Thailand?

The full hit on the nail on it's head!!!

This is EXCACTLY what I have been discussing with my friends and already was in MY 2 weeks ago to study more these opportunities that they are offering.

Many many facts speak on the behalf of Malaysia.

There is only one reason why Thailand keeps itself still up... you figure that out. Yes! One and ONLY reason!

why is anyone here? well i see thailand as a fools paradise. at first it seems so good. you get sucked in. you then a thai women that seems so nice. you start to get serious here. maybe build a house. but then the whole card house comes crashing down. you then start to see behind the scenes. the stuff that thais try their dam hardest for you never to know about. but its too late youve already got major investments (not necessarily financial) here and cant just pick up and leave.

if anyone has been here 20 years or so its very easy to see thai history repeat itself over and over again. take a look the toxin and seattle cable guy his name something like munson was it joint venture. toxin all to happy to have some foreinger come in and bring in all the knowhow but once toxin figured he did not need him any more what did do? have him arrested and did commit purgery on the trumped up charges.

bottom line never ever do anything serious in thailand.

I tire of this nonsense.

I moved to Phuket two years ago, and here's my new solution: apply in KL for an MM2H (Malaysia My Second Home) visa.

Mine came through after three months, delayed only because of the huge number of applications recently received.

A ten year renewable visa. Come and go as frequently as you wish. Any foreigner may purchase buildings and land freehold. Capital Gains Tax on disposals reduced from 30% to 5% for MM2H holders after five years. No tax on remitted offshore income. No inheritance tax.

Why is anyone still in Thailand?

well if i reading correctly what you wrote i still stand behind the rip off there heads formula.

you see ive been to that border crossing an incredibly lot. and have had long talks that time peaceuflly in full thai with the boss on the way out. that time i did see 6 different people all be told that if you leave you wont be coming back any time soon. there were also being yelled at. for what did they deserve that? nope everything youve learned in the past how to talk to thais nice here does not at all apply in this situation. ive seen so many people totally fucckked over many stranded both there and also the burma border. they tried to be nice they begged. where did it get them just more of the get the ###### out of my country.

why the f should i allow some monkey at imm with a comparable grade 2 education talk down to me and treat me like a piece of human garbage.

they tried. then to there great surprise i hammered back. they totally crumbled. i got my visa.

in case you still have failed to realize the new policies of them have nothing to do with lets gets people to follow the rules. they are done solley for the purpose of riding the country of every single non thai that they can. full stop. why did they change the work permit rules 5 times in 2 years? it was leaked they did not make it hard enough for westerners to work here. this is the same. i am sure.

and just what kind of sick person would come down hard on expats with family here? i know of many here now in dire straits. just what does that help?

'Rip there heads off and shove it down there throats!'? ...

Yep, I was dressed fairly neatly but not too neatly, and I was fairly quiet but yes, you could say I got a bit pushy after I was told only an air ticket was acceptable. After all, like the people booking tickets to Penang, if I am not going to use the ticket, what is the difference between a bus or a plane? As far as I can see, only the price. However, being in Thailand long enough has trained me never to swear or raise my voice, and to always try to smile in a bad situation. You only need to try otherwise once to know what happens.

Another thing I should have mentioned was the tricky situation I might have been in if I had not stamped and simply gone back to Bangkok to try in Laos or somewhere else. Into Aranyaprathet, we passed through a military roadblock where a military officer boarded the bus and checked everyone's passport. He carefully checked the visa stamps in mine. Going out of Aranyaprathet, the same thing. I looked out of the window at the camouflaged building but could not see any foreigners there. So I cannot say what would have happened if I had the stamp out of date. Probably a heavy fine. I guess the recommendation is: don't wait until the last day.

As StateSix posited about the lady who would not let me through, I had a feeling that she was being kind, despite shouting at me, since she knew that I would just get stuck in the no man's land between countries. She had indicated to another guy she had turned away that this was the case. She had smiled in the end, but her counterpart officer in Thai arrivals had more stars on her shoulder and did not smile, scarcely even looking up. I judged her to be harsher, especially considering the rejected looking people scattered about the arrivals room. To let people sit and rot like that, when in reality they have done nothing wrong, is to treat them as animals in my opinion, although immigration departments are hardly famous for their humanity.

It may well be the case that your fate depends on who is manning the desk that day.

If only the changes had been communicated properly, these problems could have been mitigated. But then, why bother actually telling people that things have changed, when you can simply blame the people it affects most severely for not finding out.

Despite all this, I should also say that compared to my experiences in other countries, Thailand is still pretty easy when it comes to immigration.

My recommendation: avoid Aranyaprathet / Poipet for now.

i know what you saying the assumed dress neatly speak polietly. that is also a tatic to employ in certain situations. BUT if anyone did not realize its gone way way beyond that now. there is zero fairness. zero discrtion. they have a mandate to rid the country of every single non thai. get this when i left thailand while i talked the boss for about 15 minutes peacefully i did observe that 6 people including 3 westerners, 2 japanese and 1 taiwanese all did not stamp out as all were told if they do they will not be allowed back into thailand. so there you go there are not being kind to anyone. oh and what did the lot do but be the polite guests and were quiet. THEY FAILED. i take being quiet as a form of corwardness.

the only way to get your visa is to put them in a position of blowback. if you dont understand the word do a search on it.

i think the best tactics are at first be pleseant and see what happens. but as its been seen its 100 percent enforcement of the rules in there heads. so when after i was talking totally nice and all in thai. to my surprise he just went physco on my and slammed my passport down telling me to get the f out of thailand. that is when i starting screaming at him as loud as i could. and told him what i had mind for them. and i really did mean everything i said. eveyrthing said was 100% legal everyone situation is a little different youll have to make things as akward as possible for them.

oh and the other guy that just posted I CAN DEFINETLY TELL YOU ITS NOT AS SIMPLE AS YOU SAY. its just a matter of rules being enforced that were always on the book. they are twisting the rules around and just saying anything to get rid of you. oh get this even amongst different immigrations at the very same aran they have told me very different numbers of days i was to get on my visa. even amongst the bosses there they are interpreting it very differently. i know cause i asked the same question before hand to different bosses and got very different answers.

to sum it up DONT SWEAR. DONT GO TO FAR ON THE INSULTS ABOUT THAILAND. BUT RAISE YOU VOICE. MAKE A SCENE. AND KEEP HAMMERING AWAY. THE THAIS ARE COWARDS THEY WHILE AT FIRST COME ON WITH THIS TOUGH GUY STANCE BUT AFTER AWHILE THEY WILL CRUMBLE. I KNOW IT. I WATCHED IT ON 3 DFFERENT OCCASIONS UP THERE. AND WHEN I SAY CRUMBLE BOY DID THEY EVERY CRUMBLE.

well i cant say for sure this will work for you and you cant hold me accountable if you try and have a bad outcome. im not with you to coach you. i have 15 years of experience here i can read the thais like reading a book. so try this at your own risk. one thing too im tall. perhaps that also helped to intimate them as everyone knows thais just hate people taller than them.

good luck. i really do have sympathy for anyone thats been up there and been treated like a crminal. you know the saying the best form of defense is offense.

rip there heads off and shove it down there throats.

That's an interesting new tactic to take with various Immigration officials that I've not heard of before.

It's quite a different maneuver from the typical "dress neatly", "speak politely", "never raise your voice" mantra.

Could you please tell us more about these remarkable and successful new methods you suggest we utilize?

Jii was being facetious. I know him. He was playing around and having a little joke.

//edit language/flame - lopburi3//

what a load of malarky. everyone knows the RULES ARE THE RULES. you just werent following them. if you had been following the rules none of these fabricated tales from the dark side would of happened. i mysef as so many many other law abiding thai visa citizens have no troubles at all in this the land of smiles. this the land where no one every grows old and people are never cold.

YOU CAN'T DO WRONG DOING RIGHT!!!! maybe that should be tattoed on somewhere for you to see. if you read any of the posters here youll see so many of us never ever get ourselves into trouble cause we always follow the rules. are kind and gentle and always the warmest smile on our faces. the milk of human kindness is what i have on offer. looks like this vermin was D.O.A. so many times at church ive made a pray to god. "oh god please protect me from the inflideles. next sunday at church ill ask god if he will forgive you you sinner for your sins and grant you a coverted 1 month visa. can you say RULES ARE THE RULES? come on you can do it.

This is the first time I’ve posted on Thai visa news although I’ve been a lurker for quite some time. I’d like to clarify my situation before I report my experience. I’ve been coming to Thailand for the past nine years and I use it as my base. I don’t work here and I’m not a visa runner. I work in Taiwan. I spent about 5 months a year in Thailand, 4-5 months a year in Taiwan, maybe 1 month in the states visiting my parents and maybe another month traveling in the region. I’m not old enough for a retirement visa; I’m 42. Just so you know this will be a very long report on the enforcement of the new 30 day visa exempt rules.

When they announced the new visa restrictions in September, I made sure to get a tourist visa. However, the Thai embassy in NYC would only give me a single entry visa as a matter of policy (that’s all they give anyone). In a way, this visa was useless to me because it was only valid for 3 months and I would not be hear for an extended period of time, but I was playing it safe as it would still be valid in the beginning of 2007 when they said they would be enforcing the new rules. I then plunked down the 3800 baht for a multiple re-entry permit (something I will never do again-a complete waste of money for someone in my situation) on it so I would get as much mileage out of the visa and minimize my days in Thailand on the free 30 day entries.

Now here is where my story gets interesting. I arrived in Thailand on March 14th from a trip to the PI after they had started to count the days spent in Thailand on the 30 day visa exempt at the airport. I arrived first on October 4th and spent 8 days. Then I arrived on Oct 31 and spent 9 days. I arrived on November 30th for a 21 day visit. I had two visits on my tourist visa for a total of 21 days, but these were not counted (Jan 11-Jan23 and Feb 19-March 6) as they were on the tourist visa. The visa officer was unsure how many days to give me on the stamp, which was strange. I was talking to him and the visa officer next to him in Thai. The office next to him said that I had only used 38 of the 90 free days so to give me a full stamp. Eventually he did.

On the 17th I left to Honk Kong and returned on the 20th. When I came in at the airport, the immigration office was only going to give me a stamp allowing me to stay until April 3rd even though I had only used 41 of my 90 days. She and the officer next her said that since my 6 months were up that I would have to leave on that day. I began to argue and pushed to get my full 30 days. I had only used 41 days, and it would only take a very cursory look at my passport to see that I wasn’t living or working here and that I was just a frequent visitor. They took me to speak to a supervisor.

When I went to speak to the supervisor, there were about 6 officers there. I pushed my case. I showed them the stamp when I arrived on the 14th and was allowed to stay until April 12th. Why would they only give me to April 3rd when I arrived on the 20th, only 6 days later. They said there was a new rule that at the end of the month period you must leave Thailand regardless if how many days you have spent in the country if you are using the 30 day entry. They showed me the memo in Thai. It meant nothing to me since even though I could speak ok Thai (my vocabulary is not so large) my reading skills are weak. I said that this was not convenient for me and was there anything special they could do for me. They said no, but that all I needed to do was to go to Aranyaprathet. I didn’t need to spend money on a plane ticket out. I will say that I was quite polite to the officers and they were very friendly. Also, my appearance was quite neat and proper. I’m 42 years old and don’t look like a bum or sleazy sexpat (not there is anything wrong with that

I was quite miffed by this new unannounced rule and decide to go to Suan Phlu and try to get this changed or at least some decent explanation. When I arrived in Suan Phlu I first discussed it with a officer at the information desk. They saw that I had only used 41 days and sent me to the counter to get my stamped changed. When I talked to them(as I said before my conversations were in Thai except for a few words in English to make up for some of my deficiencies in vocabulary), they said that there was a new rule that at the end of the 6 months you had to leave whether or not you had used your 90 days. I complained. I said I had done everything by the rules. I only used 41 days. I had gotten a tourist visa because immigration had wanted everyone to get a background check. I wasted 3800 baht on a reentry permit. I don’t work. I’m not a visa runner. It’s very obvious from my passport. On one day they gave me until April 12th and then 6 days later they gave me until April 3rd. They said the 1st officer had made a mistake. I then pointed out that if someone came into Thailand on Oct. 4 and left on Oct. 5 and then came back on April 2nd using the 30 day visa exempt stamp that person would have to leave on April 3rd. They said yes that person would. I said that this wasn’t fair. They agreed. I said I wanted to complain. They sent me to room 205.

When I got there, I repeated the whole story. They said yes I had done nothing wrong and that it wasn’t fair, but I had to leave anyway. They said the best they could do for me was to give me a week extension for 1900 baht. I said that I didn’t want to pay this. They told me to go to Aran. It was only 4 hours away. They said I would have to wait until April 4th to reenter and get my next set of 90 days on my 2nd 6 month period. I told then I didn’t like Cambodia so they suggested that I overstay one day. I said that I was concerned that Aran might have different rules because immigration was decentralized and could they give me a note instructing Aran immigration to let me in. They said they couldn’t because it was a different chain of command. They only have authority in BKK. Aran was in central command. The airport was also a different command (I believe there are 6 different commands in total). I had already known this so I asked if they thought I would have any problem getting in. They said no. They told me that 3 or 4 other people had already complained about this. I asked them how things would be 6 months from now; they said they weren’t sure.

April 3rd comes along and I take the trip to Aran. I decide not to overstay since I know that sometimes there is a problem with this. Manage to find the casino bus by Lumpini to take me straight to the border. It was a little confusing because I haven’t left Thailand by a land route in 3 or 4 years. When I get there, I go up to an officer who is free and ask him about my situation, being very polite. I ask if I can return on the same day. He says no problem as long as I have a forward air ticket out of Thailand. It’s a new rule. LMAO! I was shocked, but not terribly. TIT! I then went to talk to the supervisor. There were two other westerners there with the same problem. They were speaking to him in English. I spoke to him in Thai. I showed him my passport and told him that both Suan Phlu and the airport told me to come and renew my stamp at Aran. I showed him my stamps which clearly show that I’m not a visa runner, didn’t work here and was just a frequent visitor. I told him I followed all the rules. He said that this was a new rule-ANOTHER UNANNOUNCED NEW RULE! He was sympathetic and said that the government didn’t want people crossing back and forth at the land crossing and that I should go to the airport. This was funny. I would have laughed if I weren’t truly disgusted. I now was forced to overstay by immigration. I told him I didn’t want to do this. He kind of gave me a sad look. I turned straight back to BKK. I talked to a Thai sitting next to me on the bus. I was so upset I told him how the new government doesn’t like foreigners anymore. He was surprised as have all other Thais I’ve mentioned this to have been. Most Thais don’t even realize this is happening.

The next day after I got back to BKK, I booked a flight to Singapore on Tiger Air. I also called my travel agent. I told her about how I was turned back at Aran and asked her to find out the new rules. When she got back to me she told me that the people at immigration weren’t sure and that the rules were changing rapidly. They didn’t know how things would be in the future; she asked them to stop doing this as it was losing her business many customers. What a disgrace to run a country this way. I guess the head of immigration is behaving autocratically now that the CNS is in power and changing the rules on his own whims.

When I got to the airport on the 6th, I had to pay a 3 day fine. While paying the fine, I discussed my case with the officers there. An older officer with some rank came to discuss things with me. I talked to him for about 20 minutes. Again the officers were very sympathetic. I told him the rules were not fair now. He agreed. As all the officers I had already talked to before had said, he had told me these new rules were a headache for them. He complained that the manual counting of days on a rolling basis at the airport without a proper computer program was a problem. We agreed that it wasn’t an intelligent policy. He said that the person who is making the rules now has never had to take care of an immigration office and deal with people coming and going from the kingdom. He had to send an evaluation report every month to his superiors and every time he complained about the new rules. He also talked about the uneven enforcement of the rules. He asked me whether the days on a tourist visa and the 30 day visa exempt days be counted together. I said no. He said that some officers do and some don’t depending on where you are. I know that the immigration policy is to be decentralized and allow officer discretion, but THIS IS LUDICROUS. TIT.

When I came back on the 9th, I had a copy of my reservation at the end of the month, but was not asked for it. I told the officer I was starting my second period of 6 months and showed her the relevant stamps. She very quickly gave me a new set of 30 days without asking to see a forwarding ticket so this rule is not being enforced at the airport. I’m now back in Thailand.

Many people on this board always say that the rules are the rules, and the only people who will have problems here are the bad ones. This is rubbish. I followed the rules and still was forced to leave. They just change the rules like we change our shirts. Right now they are changing the rules at the drop of a hat. Maybe they are posting them on the Thai Immigration website or maybe you need to call the different posts or commands to find them out, but immigration is making no effort to make them freely available on this website or in any papers. The officers themselves are not sure what is happening and in many cases disagree with them, but have to follow them. It seems clear that this is done on purpose by the person in charge to make foreigners so frustrated that they leave, or that the person in charge is a petty dictator or incompetent and does things by the seat of his pants.

I see some posters saying that the new rules must be done logically and that the people with problems are ones who are up to now good. However, with a cursory look at my passport, it is easy to see that this is not the case. Yet, the officers don’t have the discretion to make an exception. Thus, the logic appears to be that the person in charge wants foreigners here out. Maybe you are here on a non-immigrant, retirement or work visa, and your rules will be changed without notice and you will be screwed or have to jump through hoops to stay as well. I think things here will get worse before they get better. Periodically in Thai history they have accepted foreigners and then expelled them. It appears that we are at a stage when some diehard anti-foreigners are in charge now, and attempting this.

In the past, being polite and neat in presentation when dealing with immigration would help one. The officers could use their discretion and decide who to be tough with and who to treat well. Although all the officers were polite and sympathetic to my case, they had nothing they could do even though they agreed with me (or at least said they did). This approach seems to no longer work.

This whole experience was very frustrating. I hope that sometime in the near future there will be some consistency and coherence in the immigration rules. Unfortunately, I think that things will only get worse.

i was thinking the exact same thing. where the helll did it mention that thaksin was right after all. pure speculation. i also dont know why some people think that just cause there been activity in the south right now that all of sudden there coming to bangkok to attack?

So Thaksin was right after all. It were Southern insurgents who were behind the New year bombings.. This government is a disgrace. There is no reason to leave Sonthi in charge. The government should crush murderers not pamper them like this government does.

Where did you read that in the above press release?

i gotta believe that malaysia is secretly funding and training these groups, it is to their advantage.

To their advantage? to have an ongoing insurgency on their border? how exactly do you think that works?

did you know that the law states that everyone working here must have a work pemit even if there is no pay. so did the volunteers of the tsnumai find out. the phuket immigration did say they were activley trying to find the volunteers to arrest them then there were the buyers if gems in chantaburi that one time where all put in jail. the thais are talking things way way to far now. it aint at all the country i first came to so many many years ago. used to be it was sort of a country of smiles and mai pen lai. not any more its a unforgivening land with rules writen by people with a grade education and interpreted by other thais with grade 2 educations. there is no correct way. you can be very unlucky and just get someone like this guy in burma did. they dont care about minor international incidents. people get refused entry and deported from many countries every single day. the airline ends up paying the boarding fine. sometimes not even there fault. as all the correct visas and such were already looked into before they flew. i think thou in the long term what they are doing and word will get out thailand is not a carefree place where you can easily enjoy yourself without a worry. what will then happy is people will start to choice new destinations for holidays. i already have. i just refuse to take a holiday anywhere in thailand now. i live here casue im forced to. the first 5 years before 1997 were quite fun. every since the 1997 asian economic crises its been all downhill in thailand.

I seriously doubt they you are going to be able to get to a Royal Thai Consulate that will issue a tourist visa from most border crossings. Am not even sure there is a Consulate in that country that will issue a tourist visa at this time.

Sun 28 Jan 07, 9:37 p.m.

I have never been to Myanmar, and don't know what the drill is with visas. However, if the hypothetical situation we are discussing were to happen to Tygerstar (refused reentry to Thailand for exceeding the 90/180), unable to obtain a visa from a Thai Consulate in Myanmar, and without funds to go anywhere else, then you would have a minor "international incident." I suppose he would have to throw himself on the mercy of his own country's embassy.

Aloha,

Rex

i agree with everything you said. BUT i think your missing the point as to the why. unless its me that is missing the point but i have been here for 14 years. and have seen the same pattern time after time. i think this is more of a case of power or jealous. they dont like westerners muscling in on there country. they are all very insecure. so many time i had thais who have seen me all over thai television ask me just how much did i get for whatever commerical or whatever series. and when i tell them they are always <deleted> about it. so rare is the time that they bother to give me a compliment about it. its just the thoughts that i was overpaid and that i am raping thailand blind. they dont at all think long term or what maybe best for the good of all. i dont think they even care if less people come here. they figure they dont need westerners anymore as china well bring millions and millions in the coming years. thats another very disturbing trend. i bet in a few years there will be more chinese tourists in thailand than the rest of everyone combined. its so close. it has so many people. when that happens look for even lesser respect. the thais are big time users of people. they got out what they needed from the west and know they figure its time for them to ###### offf. one example look at the shin partner from the usa the guy had a partnership with toxin. what did toxin do when the business took off. arrest the western manager commited purgery and seized all the equipment.

RoueLeJour, exactly! Good post.

Yet, the Thai government won't let me stay beyond 90 days unless I get a tourist visa. A bit stupid if you ask me because, worst comes to the worst, I'll just take the money I've earned here and that I was planning on spending HERE and go back to the US for a year! Now how is that serving Thailand or making it a better place???

Hopefully more people will be spending their money elsewhere, and hopefully this will have an affect on Thailand, but I doubt Thailand would change anything to get the money comming back in just to avoid losing face .

What surprises me is that it only took my wife one day to get her migrant visa to Australia approved and now we can stay there for good together, without having to do silly time and money wasting things like visa runs. But, for me to live here with my wife the best I can do is to get a 1 year Non O visa which means i have to leave the country every 90 days for 10 mins, turn around and then come back in. I am under 50, well actually under 30 to be more specific but I dont have an income of 40k per month so this means I have to do visa runs, even though my visa is valid for 1 year! Hahaha! What a waste, and an immigration officer once told me why don't you just transfer 400,000 baht here from your AUD savings and get a yearly extension, I explained that regardless of where my money is, its still my money and I lose interest by leaving it sit here in a Thai bank. So yeah, greedy country but a nice place to stay for a short while. Thailand "No money, no visa"

end of rant.

I want to see the 30 days visa entry rule abolished, along with visa runs.

The harder time Immigration give these dross, the better.

Get the message, (NOT WANTED HERE)

you cant say that being any way at all fair. well on one hand i definetly agree that if there were way less foreingers here it would be way better for the remaining ones. for many many reasons. but the part about these dross thats the part where you can say that. while yes some of them are vermin just causing troubles. ###### the real vermin are just on overstay and dont even bother to go out. ###### ive meets tons of people on many year overstays. many many visas here in thiailand when you try to thing the right way are an incredible pain in the ass. and many dont qualify for things like work permits if not english teaching as the rules for what a foreinger can work at are only jobs that the thais feel they are qualified too. and then the what is it 2 million baht in the bank requirement per work permit outside of english teaching. you know if they made everything fair and simple i bet tons of peoople would get the proper visas. but they dont the thais are deleberately being jerks about it all. the thais just love to show power. they have never been colonised. i think the real reason for all these rule changes is they just want everyone to get the ###### out. they even did admit that why the whole reason why they changed the work permit rules what was it 5 times in 2 years was to make it harder for foreigner to work here period. not to create a fair system. the thais are so stupid that when australia issued a travel warning to thailand for terrroism what did the geniuses in thialand do but issue a travel warning for thais going to australia for fear of dangerous snakes, loose crododile and wild kangeroos.

Getting card-info is a biz in europe and shouldn't be blaimed on Thai banks in any way.

One guy that got caught was saving the logs on the cashier-side in a foodstore and often made sure to 'force a fail' when someone entered their PIN, so he had to help them i.e. would draw the card on his side. This allowed him to quickly flip over the card and spot the ccv2 and memorize it to be quickly written down a few moments later.

And rigged ATMs in Scandinavia...are usually done by east-euros.

FYI: A card, with name, expiration and ccv2-code goes for $4 [some 2 years back] when picked up bulk. Missing the ccv2 and you get a lot less.

To make your credit card less valuable for criminals you should remove the cvv2 number from the back of the credit card. This number is not recorded on the magnetic strip and without it it will be much less likely that the card, or card number, will be used by criminals.

Don't forget to memorize or make a note of the cvv2 number before removing it

thats only slightly helpful. most of the credit card fraud of identity theft the info on the cards come from people working inside the bank.

The real news here is that the arresting officers turned down a 2 million Baht bribe! Perhaps there is hope for Thailand after all. I hope those officers get a big time promotion and reward.

I don't believe a word - what happened probably was that the fraudsters refused to pay a 2 million baht fine, which is the going rate for a police pay off for this type of crime.

you on the right track. i just dont understand why forum member just blindly believe everything they read in these thailand articles. do they have any experience dealing with thais?

Wow

Someone withdrew money from an ATM in Chiang Mai 7:00PM 3rd Jan from an ATM in Chiang Mai, using a fake copy of my British ATM card. I discovered this by looking at my Internet banking and noticed a 20,000 baht withdrawal from Chiang Mai Siam City Bank ATM machine - not sure which one.(I dont live in Chiang Mai)

I have now cancelled my card and have requested an investigation by my bank in the UK.

I have no idea how someone could copy my card, replace it and also know the PIN number. It is a normal ATM (debit) bank card, i never use it in shops or over the phone.

the only possibility i can think of is there are some dodgy atms in thailand that have been set up to copy cards and get the numbers

That is a strange statetement. There are no dodgy atm's but there are several methods to skim your card and when people place a small camera they can read your pincode. it is very weird to mention Thailand in one breath. After all this kind of fraud is very very common in Europe and thus in England. ATM cards are skimmed all the time and the pincode copied. It is not limited to thailand, in a matter of fact it happens very little in Thailand. When it comes to Creditcarrds, Malaysia is the creditcard fraud capital of the world.

thats true about malaysia being numero uno for credit card fraud. get this one time when i tried to buy something of ebay. they refused to sell to me in thailand. its a long story. but in the end i got it out of them they did mention that malaysia 1st, thailand 2nd indonesia 3rd for credit card fraud. if they are too be believed. but also i have read too that malaysia besides being numero uno for dvd and vcd pirateed copies also numero uno for credit card fraud and that many customers banks when they say there was item bought in malaysia automatically cancel the card.

well if someone can withdraw using an credit card at an atm machine without the pin number thats the very very first ive ever heard of it. i dont believe you. if you dont want to tell us then please provide any aritlce online that proves that this has be done. funny too as their were very major credit card identy thefts gangs working in thailand and all they ever could do was put someelse details on the stripe while a person went to shop to buy something. then all the stuff would just be sold thru a fense. the fense then sells the stuff at a greatly reduced price. so there are many costs and risks. and many people were caught even like this. and getting caught for creidt card and or travlerers check fraud is very serious in thailand. so if the people doing this credit card stuff if they could just withdraw from an atm machine and get the full amount rather than the risk of a shop keeper catching them and expenses of the logistiscis of it all they would stop doing this way and do your way of effortless withdrawal at an atm machine. please provide proof of your claims then ill believe it. only thing could be is that technology is always changing maybe there has been new changes to the atm machines.

Everyone here so far is really missing an obvious point. This has nothing to do with "grand schemes" or "British bank employees" or an army of people hanging out at ATM's trying to look over your shoulder to get your PIN info. It's happening in Thailand because, that's where they want to be. This can happen EASILY in ANY country, these particular guys just happened to like Thailand, so they came here.

It is ABSOLUTELY NOT NECESSARY for these guys to know the original PIN that goes with the card. It is extremely easy to withdrawl money from an ATM with a credit card without knowing the PIN, and no, it has nothing to do with "guessing" the obvious PIN. That would take, what, about 6 months to do with a 4-digit PIN? I have recently opened up accounts in Japan and China, and both of these are now using 6-digit PINs. It doesn't matter, though, it could be a 20-digit PIN and it would be just as easy. As I mentioned, the PIN with the card is irrelavent, you don't need to know it! I am not going to detail how this is done, because once you know, it is extremely tempting (yes, I have fallen for it in the past. It's how I paid for my first year of university! But I have reformed since then...).

The only way to avoid this is to never use any plastic cards! Since this is not practical, there will always be a way to empty out your bank account.

PIN NUMBERS ARE *NOT* ENCODED ON ATM OR CREDIT CARDS.

Your shift-key is stuck, please bring your keyboard in for repair. In the beginning of Usenet writing ALL-UPPERCASE was considered to be shouting at other and being unpolite. And - by the way - it is hard to read.

Thank you and greetings from Phuket.

TOTALLLY DISAGREE. HE WAS JUST STATING A FACT. ALL THAT MATTERS IS THE CONTENT NOT THE PACKAGING. BY THE WAY I FIND IT EASIER TO READ. ACTUALLY WHEN I WRITE LETTERS I ALWAYS USE THE UPPER CASE. AND DID YOU NOTICE THAN ANY FORM FOR A BANK OR IMMIGRATION ALWAYS STATE YOU MUST WRITE IN UPPERCASE. SHOULD WE TAKE YOUR SUGGESTION AND NOT TO BE RUDE TO THE BANK START FILING IT IN IN LOWERCASE LETTERS.

just amazed how most of the forum members just blindly believe all the stories that are published here. really shows that many of foruum members have llittel actually hands on experience with thailand. defenitely having lived here for 13 years more than not the stories we read are half truths and outright lies. i demand that every single story that is published in thai visa news to be first be sent thru a peer review board before it is just blindly given the ok seal. and further if the only source of the info thais and especially court certifed pathological lieing police officers that is also stated. again after 13 years now the evidence is overwhelming of what is real in the end and what was written. and so many many times the stories change. first its ie he was caught with 4 kg of herion, then its no after checking it was actually hash. then its well we got the wrong guy its was actually this other guy that did it.

thai visa news is not a news agency. they will publish anything without any fact checkers.

I am not commenting on the police / bribe thing - we don't know what happened so why speculate?

I am surprised though that these guys apparently got PIN numbers on a mass scale. That's new and troubling and I am sure the Banks and or insurance agencies are very interested in finding out how that happened. At the same time they are also very interested in keeping any findings to themselves, so don't expect this to be public knowledge anytime soon.

PINs, as has been noted, are not on the cards. A card can be replicated by just picking up an old receipt of yours or getting the card # and name some other way. Very easy.

One type of crime that has been around forever is to make fake cards and use them to buy stuff (and then presumably sell that stuff). Old news. Keep your receipts, and if it happens the card issuer will give you no trouble and return the money and lock the card.

The other type of crime, using the card at an ATM, is new, and completely different - they got your PIN from somewhere. Could be readers set up / attached to an ATM, but those are hard to hide, especially over a long period.

I also heard of an incident in the UK where someone at the post office basically intercepted the letters the bank sends out with the PIN on it. Those letters were apparently very easy to spot - a major flaw in the system and in Britain, I know for a fact that it got exploited once. I would think that that's not possible anymore though...

how told you the pin was imprinted in the card? well i dont think so unless you can prove that its just not true. of note i can change my pin number while at the ATM machine. that change does not get imprinted. i dont believe the original story completely. i dont believe that the police were offered 2 million baht but refused. yea right. i thnk the police just made that part up to make them look better. so many many times these stories we read about thailand as reported from the thai side are the stories are only half truths. thing is too if someone is using at card at a atm machine and already has the code then no police would be able to have any idea that a stolen card is being used. many parts of the story dont add up.

Wow

Someone withdrew money from an ATM in Chiang Mai 7:00PM 3rd Jan from an ATM in Chiang Mai, using a fake copy of my British ATM card. I discovered this by looking at my Internet banking and noticed a 20,000 baht withdrawal from Chiang Mai Siam City Bank ATM machine - not sure which one.(I dont live in Chiang Mai)

I have now cancelled my card and have requested an investigation by my bank in the UK.

I have no idea how someone could copy my card, replace it and also know the PIN number. It is a normal ATM (debit) bank card, i never use it in shops or over the phone.

the only possibility i can think of is there are some dodgy atms in thailand that have been set up to copy cards and get the numbers

Tip to watch out for, ATM's and card swipe machines in Thailand often print the entire card number and expiry date on the receipt.

Ever noticed the bin full of receipts at the ATM machines? I got caught by this once, never again!

I also understand the PIN is imprinted on the card, so they just get your number and expiry from the ATM slip, make up a pin, encode onto a blank hey presto - or if you used it in a store, the whole lot is on the magnetic stripe!

CHIP cards are a little more secure, but not much