pilgrim2505

Hi forum,

Divorced Thai (from me) now a permanent resident, I'm Dutch/Brit, she entered on EEA family visa in 2008. X2 children with brit/Thai passports. Divorce finalised, can anyone explain to me now she now gains a British passport and can she be exempt life in UK bulsht?

I had another response from them, still no idea what they are talking about!

Thank you for your email dated 13 September regarding your wife’s eligibility to submit an application for British citizenship. Your email has been passed to me to reply.

From the information you have provided your wife’s avenue to British citizenship would appear to be through naturalisation. If a person is applying for British citizenship under section 6(2) of the British Nationality Act 1981, on the basis of marriage to a British citizen, the requirements are:

a. was in the UK at the beginning of the period of 3 years ending with the date of the application; and

b. was not absent from the UK for more than 270 days in that 3 year period; and

c. was not absent from the UK for more than 90 days in the period of 12 months ending with the date of the application; and

d. was not, on the date of the application, subject under the immigration laws to any restriction on the period of stay in the UK; and

e. was not, at any time in the period of 3 years ending with the date of the application, in the UK in breach of the immigration laws.

Other requirements are:

· at the time of consideration

a. is of good character and

b. has a sufficient knowledge of the English, Welsh or Scottish Gaelic language, and can provide the appropriate evidence to support this; and

c. remains of full capacity

As noted above, one of the requirements for naturalisation as a British citizen based on marriage to a British citizen is that your wife is free from Immigration time restrictions when she applies. She would not be required to hold that status for 12 months before applying, unless the application is based on 5 years residence.

You are correct in stating that since 30 April 2006 all EEA Nationals, and the dependents of EEA Nationals, with 5 years residence in the United Kingdom exercising their Treaty Rights, are classed as being free from Immigration time restrictions.

Further information regarding naturalisation as a British Citizen can be found on our website at:

www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/britishcitizenship/applying/applicationtypes/naturalisation/

www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/britishcitizenship/eligibility/naturalisation/

Once your wife is satisfied that she meets the criteria she may submit an application. The application forms are available via the above links.

The onus is always on the applicant to ensure that they fully meet the requirements for any application as set out in the appropriate guide. All applicants are advised to read the guide thoroughly and make sure they satisfy the requirements before submitting any application. We will not be able to tell your wife prior to submitting any application whether it will be successful or not.

Your wife may therefore wish to seek advice from a professional legal adviser in private practice before submitting any application. A list of suitably qualified advisers can be obtained from the Office of the Immigration Services Commissioner. Their website is at: www.oisc.homeoffice.gov.uk/

Alternatively she may contact them by calling 0845 000 0046.

Yours sincerely

Bob, that applies to settlement applications.

The OP's wife already has PR in the UK under the EEA regulations from using his Dutch nationality.

It is naturalisation he is asking about.

I am actually astounded no one else has experience or answers to this....

I think my haste is centred on avoiding the wife attending more education and that KOLL bull**** not to mention that the change deadline is only a few weeks away.

I had thought it would be worth an application but since I spent last month in Thailand I would rather not lose the £800

It seems the majority of the HM Forces guidance is (as 7by7 points out) pertaining to visas and not naturalisation apps. I have wrote to a gov/hmf guidance email but chances are they will be as useless as the UKBA are!

Bob, that applies to settlement applications.

The OP's wife already has PR in the UK under the EEA regulations from using his Dutch nationality.

It is naturalisation he is asking about.

I am actually astounded no one else has experience or answers to this....

I think my haste is centred on avoiding the wife attendimg yet more education and that KOLL bull**** not to mention that the change deadline is only a few weeks away.

I had thought it would be worth an application but since I spent last month in Thailand I would rather not lose the £800

It seems the majority of the HM Forces guidance is (as 7by7 points out) is pertaining to visas and not naturalisation apps. I have wrote to a gov/hmf guidance email but chances are they will be as useless as the UKBA are!

Well, good luck and please let us know how she gets on.

BTW, I hope that

I don't like this website but it has some history of successful applications

doesn't refer to this website; Thai Visa!

NO WAY -- This site saves me lots of cash!!

Right... What does this mean? I ask as I'm HM Forces

I think the only real deterrent 7by7 is the cost, but then the naturalisation process in October requires the Mrs going back to do an even higher grade of education.

I don't like this website but it has some history of successful applications

The information below is been taken from Home office website-Guide AN/NATURALISATION BOOKLET- THE REQUIREMENTS To be read in conjunction with Guide AN.

6. EUROPEAN ECONOMIC AREA NATIONALS AND SWISS NATIONALS
This section covers you if the country to which you belong is part of the European Economic Area or Switzerland.
New immigration regulations came into force on 30 April 2006. If you are a national of a country which is a member state of the EEA or Switzerland, or the family member of such a person, you will automatically have permanent residence status after exercising EEA free movement rights in the UK for any continuous period of 5 years ending on or after 30 April 2006, and therefore will not have to apply for indefinite leave to remain. But remember that, unless married to or the civil partner of a British citizen, you should normally have held permanent resident status for 12 months before applying for naturalisation. This means that you may need to wait until you have been in the United Kingdom for 6 years
before you can apply

I am going for it, wish me luck!

I just got off the phone to the National Checking service who said it makes no difference as long as she has been here 3 years and a wife of a brit!

BUT they aren't allowed to give advice of course

BACK AGAIN!

it took the UKBA only a month and a half to answer an email, not bad right?!

------------------------

Dear Sir,

Thank you for your further email. We apologise for the delay in reply. We are currently experiencing high volumes of correspondence.

If your wife is a national of a country in the European Economic Area (EEA) or Switzerland, or is the family member of such a person, she will automatically have permanent residence status if she has exercised EEA free-movement rights in the UK for a continuous five-year period ending on or after 30 April 2006. Your wife does not need to apply for leave to remain. Your wife should have held permanent residence status for 12 months before she applies for naturalisation.

If your wife has been outside the UK for six months or more in any one of the five years of the residence period, she will have broken your residence. This does not apply if:

· the absence was due to military service; or

· all absences were for under 12 months and were for important reasons such as pregnancy, childcare, serious illness, study, vocational training or an overseas posting.

You may wish to seek advice from a professional legal adviser in private practice. A list of suitably qualified advisers can be obtained at: www.oisc.homeoffice.gov.uk/

Alternatively you may call the Office of the Immigration Services Commissioner on 0845 000 0046.

The onus is upon the individual to ensure that he/she satisfies the requirements set out in the guidance material that accompanies each and every application form, the Nationality Group is not able to give, indicate or advise upon the outcome of any such application prior to it being correctly submitted and being given full and careful consideration.

Regards

AA01

Home Office

Customer Service Improvement Directorate

-----------------------------------

Still no answer, can I change from being Dual to a Brit, someone MUST know the answer!

Right, took a while but I got a response from our friends down at the UKBA:

Dear Sir

Thank your for your enquiry.

Depending on your wife’s current citizenship or nationality, she may be able to apply in several ways. Your wife should read the requirements for each type of application that is relevant and decide which is best for her. If your wife is unsure she meets the requirements, she may want to take professional advice from a solicitor or from an immigration adviser registered by the Office of the Immigration Services Commissioner (OISC).

If your wife meets the requirements for naturalisation she should go to the applying for naturalisation as a British citizen section for details on how to apply.

There are seven requirements your wife needs to meet before she applies:

· are aged 18 or over; and

· are of sound mind; and

· can communicate in English, Welsh or Scottish Gaelic to an acceptable degree; and

· have sufficient knowledge of life in the United Kingdom; and

· are of good character; and

· are the husband, wife or civil partner of a British citizen; and

· meet the residential requirements; or

· the husband, wife or civil partner is in Crown or designated service outside the United Kingdom.

Residential requirements

In order to demonstrate the residential requirements for naturalisation your wife needs to:

· have been resident in the United Kingdom for at least three years (this is known as the residential qualifying period); and

· have been present in the United Kingdom three years before the date of her application; and

· have not spent more than 270 days outside the United Kingdom during the three-year period; and

· have not spend more than 90 days outside the United Kingdom in the last 12 months of the three-year period; and

· have not been in breach of the immigration rules at any stage during the three-year period.

Further information regarding naturalisation as a British Citizen can be found at the following website links;

www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/britishcitizenship/applying/applicationtypes/naturalisation/

www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/britishcitizenship/eligibility/naturalisation/

www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/britishcitizenship/eligibility/naturalisation/spouseorcivilpartnerofcitizen/

www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/applicationforms/nationality/guide_an.pdf

Please note that as the onus is upon the individual to ensure that he/she satisfies the requirements set out in the guidance material that accompanies each and every application form, the Nationality Group is not able to give, indicate or advise upon the outcome of any such application prior to it being correctly submitted and being given full and careful consideration. Therefore, you are advised to read through the guide prior to submitting a future application.

For any queries regarding permanent residency please contact our European department, contact details below:

European Contact centre

0845 010 5200 (option 1 followed by option 2)

Monday to Thursday 09:00 – 16:45

Friday: 09:00 – 16:30

European Nationals and Family Members:

[email protected]

Regards

AA01

Home Office

Customer Service Improvement Directorate

You are correct in saying that an EEA national and their non EEA family members do not need to apply for PR and a residence card; but as it is free and doing so may save complications when arriving back into the UK after a holiday etc. abroad then I would suggest doing so.

The rules are very clear in saying that it is only the spouses or civil partners of British citizens who can apply for naturalisation once they have no time limit on their stay in the UK and have lived in the UK for at least 3 years.

All others, including EEA nationals and regardless of the nationality of their partner, if any, need to have had no time restriction on their stay for at least 12 months before they can apply and have lived in the UK for at least 5 years. (Except children under 18, who can apply for registration when they have no time restriction on their stay and, if over 13, have been living in the UK for at least 2 years. Although they are unlikely to be successful unless their parent(s) is(are) applying at the same time or is(are) already British.)

I do not agree with the opinion expressed in your 1st link; as I said before, all the information I have been given by, among others, professionals working in this field, including a very experienced barrister, is that you cannot use the EEA rules until PR and then switch to being British for your wife's naturalisation.

With regards to the person in your 2nd link; as you say, his situation is different to yours and, as he says, one important point is that the non EEA spouse must already have PR when the EEA national becomes a British citizen. I must admit this is not a situation I have come across before.

As I understand it from what you have said, although you are a British citizen neither your wife nor daughter yet have PR.

Also from what you have said, I assume that you have queried this with the UKBA and look forward to you posting their reply. I am, as ever, well prepared to be proven wrong.

Did you have dual British /Dutch nationality when they first came to live in the UK?

If so then, with respect, I have to be honest and say that having used your dual nationality to avoid the requirements and the extremely high costs of following the UK immigration rules route to settlement for your wife and step daughter, having to wait until they have held PR for 12 months before they can be naturalised as British does not seem too onerous to me

Agreed ref the links and I can see the differences now!

I did have dual nationally when hey 1st arrived.

I laugh when I read the term 'with respect' I naturally await the swift blow to the preverbal, but I whole heartedly agree that its a small price to pay for such a cost saving route.

Thanks kindly!

PS: I shall include the response from our beloved UKBA in due course...

As you have dual nationality and lived abroad and didn't renew your passport for more than 10 years you lost your Dutch nationality, if you lived for more then 10 years outside the European Union without a Dutch valid passport that is.

If you did not lose your Dutch nationality, it is possible for your wife to get Dutch nationality, but she must be able to speak some Dutch and have some basic knowledge about the Netherlands. (I know that there are some schools in BKK that help people with this).

I went through a lengthy process to reinstate my Dutch Nationality actually... I was only able to do so because I was Registered by my BRITISH mother when I was under the age of adult consent (I was 17 apx) I had to trace back my mums and dads marriage and my birth records and it took a few months. I would have to say that it was well worth the bother on a financial front.

Your wife might be eligible for Dutch nationality too.

Naturalisation

Spouses and registered or civil partners of Dutch nationals can apply for Dutch nationality if they meet a number of conditions. The conditions and application procedure are outlined in the brochure Hoe kunt u Nederlander worden in het buitenland? (only available in the Dutch language)

1. Neither of us reads, writes or knows any Dutch!

2. I had actually not bothered to renew my Dutch passport from about 15yrs old as there was no need, I only done it as it was an easier route to visas for the wife and daughter.

Thank You (as always) 7x7!

I would have to agree with you but I would like absolute confirmation. UKBA are very UN-transparent and ultra annoying!

There are no rulings I can find to counter the ability to change from EEA spouse to

Brit Spouse other than the 3 Vs 5yr ruling, I remain confused on this account!

If you are a national of a country in the European Economic Area (EEA) or

Switzerland, or you are the family member of such a person, you will
automatically have
 permanent residence status if you have exercised EEA
free-movement rights in
the UK for a continuous five-year period ending on or
after 30 April 2006. You
do not need to apply for leave to remain. You should
have held permanent 
residence status for 12 months before you apply for
naturalisation.

This supports the EEA claimants ability to apply for nationalisation on completion of 6 yrs

but disregards any ability for the spouse to change nationality!


Since 30 April 2006, EEA citizens are automatically considered free of a time limit

under the Immigration Rules after they have 
exercised their Treaty rights for
any continuous 5-year period. After 5 years,
they automatically receive
permanent residence status. They no longer need to 
apply for indefinite leave
to remain.

This is all well and good but you need to apply for a permi-residence card if you

intend to travel anywhere as you might not be allowed back in with out
reapplying for a EEA family permit.

Do you need to apply?

You do not need to obtain documents confirming

your right of residence in the UK if you are a family member of an EEA

national. However, you may be inconvenienced if you do not obtain

this confirmation, as: you may have difficulty proving that you are lawfully resident in the UK;

if you leave the UK, you will usually need to obtain an EEA family permit before

returning here, in order to guarantee readmission as the family member of a

qualified EEA national; and you may find it difficult to obtain or change employment.

So, I am still at a lose to what to do and shall wait for a response from the UKBA... However long that will take!?

This link is rather confusing too, let me know what you think, it would suggest that I am eligible to claim on my wife's behalf.

http://www.justanswer.com/uk-immigration-law/7k4id-eea-family-resident-permit-expire-2016.html

And this chap here seems to have done the same but he wasn't originally British, problem is he doesn't provide as source for the things he says!

http://www.lifeintheuk.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=764610

I am a dual national Brit/Dutch and my Thai wife & our daughter came over in Feb 2008 on an EEA family permit, I believe that this would be impossible now [ ref EUN2.16 ] ?

With that in mind I was about to apply on an EEA4 for a residency permit BUT I wonder if it might be possible to change tack, present my wife as resident for 5 years, married to a British citizen and then avoid/skip a year [ You should have held permanent residence status for 12 months before you apply for naturalisation. Standard reqs for naturalisation ]

Thoughts? I don't want to apply without assurance that I can as the fee is rather hefty!

I am rather keen to understand some of these changes too...

I am a dual national Brit/Dutch and my Thai wife came over in Feb 2008 on an EEA family permit, I believe that this would be impossible now [ ref EUN2.16 ] as we wouldn't technically be exercising treaty rights?

With that in mind I was about to apply on an EEA4 for a residency permit BUT I wonder if it might be possible to change tack, present my wife as resident for 5 years, married to a British citizen and then avoid/skip a year [ You should have held permanent residence status for 12 months before you apply for naturalisation. Standard reqs for naturalisation ]

Thoughts? I don't want to apply without assurance that I can as the fee is rather hefty!

I am actually disgusted at the UKBA again! Why dont they make a point to DIRECTLY tell people about policy changes that will effect them! W******s!!

I wouldnt have bothered renewing a dual passport if I had known this, and at the end of the day, I am exercising my right to live where I choose, I am using my ability to move freely through the EU and have my family with me and think this is an infringement of my rights!

I still don't know if its 5 years or 6 (5+1yr on a permi card), as I have no rights as an EU citizen I would hope that I now can present myself as British and my Mrs as being here for 5 yrs...

I am rather keen to understand some of these changes too...

I am a dual national Brit/Dutch and my Thai wife came over in Feb 2008 on an EEA family permit, I believe that this would be impossible now [ ref EUN2.16 ] as we wouldn't technically be exercising treaty rights?

With that in mind I was about to apply on an EEA4 for a residency permit BUT I wonder if it might be possible to change tack, present my wife as resident for 5 years, married to a British citizen and then avoid/skip a year [ You should have held permanent residence status for 12 months before you apply for naturalisation. Standard reqs for naturalisation ]

Thoughts? I don't want to apply without assurance that I can as the fee is rather hefty!

....if you can live off of local food your food budget will still be about 10,000 baht a month but if you enjoy international food it might be close to 15-20,000 baht....

May I please be disagreeable with the aforementioned?

There are probably more than 50% of the local populace who earn just about that amount and also have the responsibility to take care of the family members as well.

Coming from farang salary back home, it does appear Thai salary is meager and dehumanizing sort of.

But there are many farang in Thailand though not highly educated nor highly trained are living comfortably in Thailand.

It all depends on just HOW you wish to spend your and yours life and what sort of life style you wish to adopt.

The farang manager when he goes to bkk three nights, his tap runs around 12,000 baht.

While my Thai executive goes to bkk three nights, his tap runs less than 8,500 baht.

With 10k+ a month, a farang can live quite well in Thailand indeed, if he/she is determined and exercises his/her wisdom. So as everyone can see, with such income, to live in metropolitan such as bkk and chiengmai is mostly out of the question.

I am with you 100% on this!

I lived in Thailand for 3yrs when I took a career break and I spend about 3 months there every year. I could easily spend 5000thb a night out but remember many a month where I would live with the mrs and spend little more than 100-200thb a day on myself. Also when you live somewhere I find you live within your means, sure its fun to have nights out but I don’t live like that now nor will I when I move to Asia.

Do you teach?

I am also a little confused because how can you have been in the military for 20 years and be only 32. That means you were 12 when started military service.

:jap:

Thank you again, I think I should have an original post on the lines of "What jobs are open to me if..."

I WILL be 40 ish when I leave, theres several options open to me in and around the time I am 32 now, joined at 17.

The more I think about it, I might stay in the UK and teach here and go Thailand on Holiday during term breaks. I had no idea it would be so complicated.

I wonder what response I would have got if I just posted:

“I have a degree, PGCE and some teaching experience - can I teach some illiterate kids how 'to do' English in the jungle for a few quid or should I not bother?"

I suspect that the OP is probably mid-late 30's.

I have worked at 3 of the top internationals in Bangkok and have yet to hear of a 'mandatory retirement age' for ex-pat teachers. Care to enlighten?

32 and 3 months and counting :jap:

I think that overall your plan is doable but there are some serious things that you haven't considered and others haven't mentioned. You are married with 2 kids. There is no absolutely no way that you will be able to support your entire family on a first year teacher's salary. You will not get any high paying international school jobs without at least 1-2 years full time experience in your country. You will only make 30-40,000 baht and if you get a masters you will get paid less at university than you will in grade schools. It will take at least a few years working full time here before you are getting the higher 60-80K Baht jobs, if you ever do get them. They are scarce and there are a lot of overly qualified people working for less.

The MOE of education requires a few things in order for you to get your teacher's license. 1. If you have a license from your country, 2. degree in education, 3. PGCE or in the states passing the Praxis 1+2.

So with your PGCE you will get the teacher's license, but as stated before the requirements might change in a few years. FYI you will need a totaly clean criminal background check too. No charges of any sort. That will get stricter in the future. Not more laxed.

If your wife isn't going to work as a teacher also and is to stay at home, there is no way that you will send your kids to school and have a good life. Average cost of low end EP or International schools is about 8,000 baht a month per kid (you have 2, so there is half your salary right there. Thailand doesn't allow home school so that is not a legal option. If you work at a school you will get half tuition so that helps some, but it is still very hard to make any kind of middle class life style that you would be accustomed to on a teacher's salary for a family of 4.

As for degree, your degree is worthless for its subject matter. You can transfer to a more applicable field and most universities accept up to 2 years of courses so you wouldn't lose too much. Education is the field that you would need if you wanted to work for elementary age students. A science background + PGCE would allow you to get some good teaching jobs for science in EP programs or low end International schools once you get some experience.

FYI, as long as you aren't gung ho military your background won't be an issue, but I wouldn't showcase it on my resume. Some employers might feel that you are going to be to strict or rigid. Some schools that I know of have had some problems with ex military in the past. Some have had good experiences. Depends I guess if you are a grunt or an officer.

With the greatest of respect, I plan this meticulously into the future then negate the fact I won’t have sufficient funds to support my family – ☺ That’s one bold assumption, extremely far of the mark but I appreciate your concern.

I wont go as far as to give you a financial breakdown but I wont need to work by the time I arrive. I already own a 3-bedroom house outright, I will get a payout from the forces of about 40k and I will have a monthly income of between £800 and £1000 PM. I want to work so I don’t sit around drinking whiskey all day.

There was some beautiful information in the middle and it is being addressed and for that I am extremely grateful. I think Education is the way forward but I will have to look into how it maps across to working in the UK.

I will make it clear - I want to teach English at its basic level not have the highest paid job in SE Asia. I understand that at this time in our history there have NEVER been this many people holding degrees, that said primary and secondary kids still learn subject matter at there relevant level not uni level and if Thailand feels I wont be qualified enough then I wont teach there.

Oh the Grunt / Officer bit was charming newbie001 lol… FYI Grunt and I am not about to make excuses for the last 20 years of my life in uniform now am I. Did you know in the UK it's being actively encouraged for soldiers to transition into teaching.

Good luck with your pursuit. I got a plac eon a PGCE in England starting September. I also got an offer for a Masters in education, however the masters will not lead to QTS. So PGCE it is then.

Good luck with that mate.

It seems like you are planning well for the future. I don't know what to recommend for you personally as situations can change rapidly worldwide, not just in Thailand. I can't see the Religious Studies being much use, but perhaps you could focus more on Education if that's the line you want to take.

I was surprised to see that some people think that the entry qualifications for a teaching job here would increase. I think of some of the schools in my area, who are crying out for just a native speaker regardless of qualifications which they can't even get.

Obviously for the best jobs here, you want the best qualifications, but i think these schools are far outnumbered by your average government school with an average English Program.

Good Luck

I would have to agree, theres a lot of attractive work elsewhere at far more attractive salaries. I am pretty confident that I could get some work especially if I aim in the correct place. More money doesn't mean a better job.