LazyYogi

I suppose you are correct about the origins of the Nagas, since they share similar names and so forth in the myths in Thailand and India.

...

From my hypothesis one also has to take into consideration that the religions created by the victorious side, whether it is the god or the Nagas, will tend to deminish the oposition. If the Gods prevailed in India, I would expect to see less of the Nagas, and if the Nagas escaped to Cambodia, one might expect to see a much more clear picture of their side of the story.

Naga worship is all over the place in India. Furthermore, the nagas and devas hardly clash at all. The nagas are much more local deities. They inhabit a particular river or lake. They are spread throughout the world. No need to say they came from India, or they fled to Cambodia. Wherever there is water, beings who have the karmic disposition will take birth as nagas. The stories of the nagas came from India, but not the actual beings necessarily. Which brings me to...

Me and you are of different experience through reading these text. I have no problem reading these as beings with a physical appearance, and not lacking self-nature. And why do you say that the other mythologies are nonsence when they often just are condenced or diffrerent stories of the same things that you find in your litterature.

You misunderstand me. The nagas, devas, yakshas, pretas, hel_l-beings, asuras, and gandharvas all have some type of physical body. That is rupa, the form aggregate. But what we consider to be "beings" are just the 5 aggregates: form, feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness. There is no "self" to be found inside or outside of these five aggregates. This is the teaching of the Buddha. This applies to me and you, and every other human, animal, naga, deva, and sentient being of any type.

Also, I didn't actually mean that the mythologies of the various ancient cultures of the world were nonsense. I was referring more to the various stories of DNA hybrids, lost continents, lost planets, alien races, etc. that seem to have just originated in the imagination of Madam Blavatsky.

I think you suffer from trying to piece together something coherent out of many nonsense theories. I very much believe that certain nagas, devas, and other unseen beings "exist" (though lacking self nature). But you lost me with all the unnecessary DNA swapping. The devis and naginis are so out-of-this-world hot that no deva or naga in his right mind would waste time pursuing a human partner.

But, anyways, Thai and Khmer mythology is all taken from India. So why not just go straight to the source?

There is a Japan-based organization that does this, BUKKYO DENDO KYOKAI. The book is called "The Teaching of Buddha". The same book is as pervasive in Japan as the Gideon Bible is in the US. Here is the website of the organization's US branch: http://www.bdkamerica.org/default.aspx?MPID=53

I found somewhere to download the Padauk Unicode font that can be used to display the Shan variation of the Burmese script correctly HERE. There is also a keyboard layout for Mac users there specifically designed for typing in Tai.

You can also get the same Padauk font HERE.

From my very limited experience it is important to not set up your computer with any other Burmese fonts, because many of them don't follow the standard and it totally goofs up how it gets displayed on the screen. You can can pull up the Wikipedia article on the Shan as sort of a test to see it it is displaying correctly.

In the first sentence of the article , in parenthesis, you should see "tái" written in the Shan script, which matches the script right above the picture of the woman on the right.

In any case, Thais still use "khon" when talking about farang, since it is the classifier for people.

ex.: "mii faràng sǎam khon maa gin khâao". (Three foreigners came to eat.)

Hi folks. I'm not getting a tattoo done (I find after 48 years that I don't have to write it down any more to remember it [but am aware that that may change!!!! lol]), but I am now living in Thailand and am working on learning the language so I figure being able to write my name in Thai would be pretty handy.Mike ArmstrongMy Thai teacher reckons the Mike is ไมค์ but I am having difficulty understanding this as I thought that the gaa-ran symbol meant that the 'k' sound is silent, but of course when you say "mike", there is a slight, but distinct 'k' sound at the end of it.I have had a go at doing my surname: อัรมสทรงAny help with this would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance.

อาร์มสตรอง

Thank you Yogi (I'm not going to call you lazy, because you helped me ) :jap:

mai bpen-rai.

Also, my wife agrees that ไมค์ is correct. But like you, I can't figure out why.

Hi folks. I'm not getting a tattoo done (I find after 48 years that I don't have to write it down any more to remember it [but am aware that that may change!!!! lol]), but I am now living in Thailand and am working on learning the language so I figure being able to write my name in Thai would be pretty handy.

Mike Armstrong

My Thai teacher reckons the Mike is ไมค์ but I am having difficulty understanding this as I thought that the gaa-ran symbol meant that the 'k' sound is silent, but of course when you say "mike", there is a slight, but distinct 'k' sound at the end of it.

I have had a go at doing my surname: อัรมสทรง

Any help with this would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance.

อาร์มสตรอง

Last year there was a Shan-Thai Dictionary published by Chiang Mai Rajabhat University. I think it would be a very useful book if you could get your hands on a copy.

According to my wife, the common way to express "thank you" in Shan (Tai-yai) is "nyin-lii nam nam", which is equivalent to "yin-dii maak maak".

So you would express your thanks by saying that you are very pleased. Maybe central Thai used a similar expression in the past.

Also in that dialect, the two most common greetings are "have you eaten?" and "where are you going?"

That's funny, I had the exact same thought today. My wife and in-laws are Shan. But they never learned how to write it. I did a little googling at work and found a few things. It's a lot simpler than Thai to write. Here's what I found so far:

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/shan.htm

http://www.shaninform.org/Learning_Tai/tai_phonetic.php

It's not just Thailand that does this. Ever go to the Taj Mahal? 20 rupees for Indians, but a whopping 750 rupees for foreigners.

Yasmin - ญาสมินทร์ ?

I know there are many ways to spell it but I like this version. Chose ญ over ย because I think it's more feminine. Been told to add ทร์ as it would look too short otherwise. I know English speakers would probably say แญส instead of ญาส but I prefer the latter. Comments?

I couldn't find the edit post button but just in response to tod-daniels post, I'm not going to do a tattoo Also, people tattooing things they don't really understand has been going on for ages (chinese tattoos). And it's just as silly as when Thais transliterate their names to English which is in almost all cases horribly wrong, including silent letters and whatnot.

Well, you probably already know that "ยาสมิน" or "ยัสมิน" are the much more natural choices of spelling Yasmin. To me, ญาสมินทร์ looks like some strange Persian-Arabic-Sanskrit non-sense concoction. ญ originally represented a ñ sound in Sanskrit and Pali loanwords. And the silent "ทร์" is the result of Thai abbreviating the pronunciation of Indic words. So, to me at least, ญาสมินทร์ makes it look like your name was originally "Ñāsamindra" in Sanskrit.

As for 1 and 2, I don't know if there really is any kind of system. But after you see enough words you can maybe get it right about 65% of the time on the first try.

And for part 3, I think นี้ นั้น ว่า คือ and หรือ are all words that will often be followed by a slight pause depending on their exact placement and function in the particular sentence.

Here's a similar constructed word in Thai, well two.

เกาะ Goh- Means 'Island' And we do say it like goh like a frog saying 'Gop'

ฮาว How- means 'we/us' in Isaan or ราว- row- means 'we/us' in central Thai

Just remind people that there are two ways to make the 'ow' vowel the second being เรว.

Hope this helps.

Sorry to pick you up on your spelling but, ฮาว should be เฮา, ราว should be เรา and that last one เรว isn't the 'ow' vowel sound you are talking about. An example of the two 'ow' sounds, สาว - girl and เสา - pole, they're both led my the consonant ส, a high class consonant therefore making them both rising tone.

No problem in picked up, ' A person afraid to make a mistake is afraid to learn. Yes i have just looked up 'ฮาว & ราว' and it indeed means 'About, aproximately or a handrail' not 'We' which is spelt ' เรว' , i just assumed it was the 'we' definition because saw it in isolation we the word 'Island' as listed above making 'our island' but Thai makes a fool of people constantly . I have also noted it is an 'ow' sound but longer and slower from the recording i've listed to. How is the vowel of ฮาว pronounced ?

With your examples of ฮาว, เฮา, ราว, and เรา, it might be easier if you thought of the vowel sound as "ao" instead of "ow" (but with the same sound rhyming with the English word "cow"). So then you can tell the difference between the pronunciation of the different spellings is due to the different lengths of the vowels. So เฮา and เรา would be "hao" and "rao". While ฮาว and ราว would be "haao" and "raao".

เกาะ is a bit harder to find a good romanization for. The most unambiguous is if you write it "gɔ̀". If you can't use phonetic symbols, then I prefer to write it as "gàw". "Goh" or "Koh" are the most widely used, however. And it's a shame because it's so easy to mistakenly read it as an English long "O".

"Porn" is probably the most unfortunately unecessarily messed up romanization victim. I can say with near certainty that, at least for American native English speakers , nobody who reads "Porn" is going to pronounce the name correctly, since there is no "o" and no "r" sound anywhere to be found. The whole problem could be fixed if people just spelled their name as "Pawn" or "Phawn" or maybe "Paun" if they don't want be be a chess piece.

Aren't American Bostonians native English speakers?

Part of the attraction of the romanisation 'Porn' is that it preserves the 'r' in the Thai spelling.

'Paun' confuses if there is nothing to signal that vowels should be read according to the rules for English.

Except there's no reason to preserve the "r" as there is none. There is just a "ร" which sounds like "n" at the end of syllables. If we followed this logic then we should be writing "swas-dii" for "hello" and "Prathes-Thaiy" for the name of the country. And anyway, that isn't why the "r" is there. It's an attempt to convey the sound of อ as "-or", so sometimes you see other ridiculous words like "Mor Chit".

You could be right about speakers with a Boston accent, though.

"Porn" is probably the most unfortunately unecessarily messed up romanization victim. I can say with near certainty that, at least for American native English speakers , nobody who reads "Porn" is going to pronounce the name correctly, since there is no "o" and no "r" sound anywhere to be found. The whole problem could be fixed if people just spelled their name as "Pawn" or "Phawn" or maybe "Paun" if they don't want be be a chess piece.

Monkeys can be very dangerous. I was bit by one in Lopburi several years back. Be very careful if you go to see the temple ruins there.

ขึ้นลีย์ = Kuenley (mouth shape )

คุณลีย์ = Kuenley (mouth shape )

โอ = O

If you spelled it คุนลีย์ it would work if the pronunciation is (Koon-lee). But if the pronunciation is "Koon-lay", then you'd want something like คุนเลย์

Whatever you do, don't go with the first one suggested by Sarahsbloke because it's been unecessarily written in a way that gives the first syllable a falling tone, which would just sound funny. Plus that first syllable is already a Thai word used to say "increasingly", and that's how a native would hear it.

The thing is, when you learn to read and write Thai (correctly) it makes tones easier because there are rules of pronunciation. It isn't just arbitrary. For example, syllables starting with high-class consonants will always be rising, falling, or low tone. Dead syllables will never be mid or rising tone.

Remembering tones improves your spelling. Remembering the spelling improves your tones. Remembering both improves your pronunciation. Better pronunciation helps you to understand and be understood. Is communication not the whole point of learning a language?

What is learning to read and write Thai correctly? Thai children learn to read and write Thai without learning the rules, they are too difficult so they are first taught to memorise each combination, then they learn the rules after they already can read and write. Is the farang way correct? Or is the Thai way correct? The western way force the impression that consonants are more important than vowels while the people who we want to understand what we say think the opposite

Learning to read and write makes the tones easier IF you can hear the difference between the tones, if you can't then it just forces you to differentiate between what you practically can't differentiate. You are obviously not going to do a very good job with that, and you will create the bad habit of not doing a very good job with it. It is beneficial for you to wait creating bad habits until you can hear the differences well enough to get close and thereby have less bad habit to correct

I am not saying - Wait until you can understand well, I'm just saying - Wait until you can hear the differences between the different tones well. Pronunciation wise, you are only digging your own hole that you will have to work yourself out of later if you don't

It doesn't matter if you are taught the formal rules or you just learn from rote memorization like school children. In both cases you will learn the sounds that go with the written language which was what I meant by "correctly". You learn that this letter plus this letter make this sound, and you can produce the sound out of your mouth (or at least come close). In a way I was questioning the idea that someone could really say they can read without knowing tones. Such a person would not even be able to say the names of the letters.

I think I've heard my wife say เสียวฟัน in this type of situation. It's as if the sound is so irritating that it gives you a tooth ache. I guess you've got to think outside the box.

Yes many of us have the same problem with this and other words where one letter is silent.

All native English speakers struggle with the syllable initial /ng/ consonant. There is no silent letter here, this is a recognized consonant which shows up in English as a final consonant but is written with two letters in the Roman alphabet as are other consonants such as /th/ or/sh/. (English uses some 28 consonants using a alphabet with only 20 some consonant characters) But with practice, slowly removing the first half of a short English syllable with the /ng/ ending (sing, bang, bong, etc) you will get the hang of it. It took me almost a year to get it to come out without feeling that I was choking.

I wouldn't say all native English speakers struggle with it. It's actually quite easy for some.

But you are correct that there is no silent letter.

As for pronunciation tips: don't think of it as "n" + "g". It is just one sound "ng". You close the back of your throat, the same as when you make a "k" or "g" sound, but it's a nasalized vibration.

The thing is, when you learn to read and write Thai (correctly) it makes tones easier because there are rules of pronunciation. It isn't just arbitrary. For example, syllables starting with high-class consonants will always be rising, falling, or low tone. Dead syllables will never be mid or rising tone.

Remembering tones improves your spelling. Remembering the spelling improves your tones. Remembering both improves your pronunciation. Better pronunciation helps you to understand and be understood. Is communication not the whole point of learning a language?

I would send it in a box, maybe wrapped in a piece of Thai silk, which could then be placed under the Buddha on the shelf or small shrine where it will be displayed. Sending a statue (even a small one) in an envelope just seems strange to me.

I'm quite surprised you hear anyone saying crap or crup, mainly because the r is silent (same as in jing and many other Thai words).

Cap or Cup is the usual from people who feel masculine.

The r is not silent in the same way it is in the word "jing". Every Thai person knows that the proper pronunciation is "khrap", they are just lazy because it's easier to pronounce without the r. That is not the case with jing, in which the r is always silent.

<!--quoteo(post=3668753:date=2010-06-05 22:59:19:name=LazyYogi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LazyYogi @ 2010-06-05 22:59:19) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3668753"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The original Thai spelling is <!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->บางกอก<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->, as in "Bang-kok". So the "g" is actually half of "ng", which in Thai is just one letter,<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--> ง<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->. Though actually a much better spelling would be something like: baang-gawk<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I thought the original Thai spelling of Bangkok was ....

Short Name

กรุงเทพมหานคร

Grun-Tep Maha-Nakon

Full Name

กรุงเทพมหานคร อมรรัตนโกสินทร์ มหินทรายุธยามหาดิลก ภพนพรัตน์ ราชธานีบุรีรมย์ อุดมราชนิเวศน์ มหาสถาน อมรพิมาน อวตารสถิต สักกะทัตติยะ วิษณุกรรมประสิทธิ์

Krung Thep Mahanakhon Amon Rattanakosin Mahinthara Ayuthaya Mahadilok Phop Noppharat Ratchathani Burirom Udomratchaniwet Mahasathan Amon Piman Awatan Sathit Sakkathattiya Witsanukam Prasit

Translated

The city of angels, the great city, the residence of the Emerald Buddha, the impregnable city (of Ayutthaya) of God Indra, the grand capital of the world endowed with nine precious gems, the happy city, abounding in an enormous Royal Palace that resembles the heavenly abode where reigns the reincarnated god, a city given by Indra and built by Vishnukarn.

Not quite. It is true that Krungthep is what Thais refer to the metropolis of 10 million people as. However, "Bangkok" as a place name existed much earlier. It referred to a specific village that existed long before there was a city here. "bang" means "village", and you might notice there are many areas of Bangkok today that start with this: Bang Kapi, Bang Na, Bang Lamphu, etc. "Bangkok" was known to foreigners since the Ayutthaya times since they would have passed it on their voyage upriver to the capital. And so they continued using the same name for the area even after the capital was moved there and the new city swallowed up all the villages.