MeePeeMai

This is what I've been saying for a while now. Immigration is the only entity that will know if you have been in Thailand for more than 180 days out of the year, so it seems that this is the only plausible way for them to enforce the "tax resident" status (tie it to our annual extensions). Many folks said: "No, the Revenue Department and the Immigration Department are not connected and have nothing to do with each other. It will never happen". I beg to differ.

Exactly, the main reason I chose Thailand to retire in was I just wanted to retire in peace and be left alone.

I have gone over this in my head over and over (my own personal tax scenario) and I just can't convince myself that it will all work out and result in a fair and relatively easy thing to accomplish. The way I see it these are my choices.... buckle up, be honest and roll the dice (hoping for the best outcome/experience), play the ignorance card and hope they don't/won't/can't enforce it, leave every year after 179 days, or hope that there will be agents here that can "assist" me and make things easier to accomplish. I don't mind paying a fair amount of tax but I don't want to be fleeced or over-taxed by way of ignorance (regarding the double tax treaty) or having the burden(s) of proof be too onerous or difficult to obtain every year.

Just wait until they get the bright idea to tax our "unrealized" capital gains on top of our worldwide income. There is a growing push now in the USA (thanks to Biden and Yellen) to do just that. Other countries will soon be trying to do "same same". Monkey see, monkey do... so it seems.

We are heading into a worldwide recession/depression it would seem. All economies are now, or will soon be on the downhill slide.

At this point in time, I wouldn't trust A.I. as far as I could spit.

Only up to a maximum of $3000 USD per year, although any excess losses over and above the $3000 in one year can be carried forward to the next year(s).

My fear exactly, that and the fact that they will probably force us to use our nearest RD office for the tax nightmare (RD office nearest to our home address listed for for 90 day reports). I'm not even sure they will let an accountant from Bangkok prepare your taxes for you. He/she would certainly have to be willing to come with you to your local RD office (on your dime of course) if you were called in for some reason. And I certainly don't want to try to explain a double tax treaty to the RD staff here or have them severely misinterpret it. These are some very dark clouds on the horizon it seems.. especially for some unfortunate victims (me included).

Here is the answer - Only US citizens using BKK Bank receiving US Govt. checks (auto deposit such as a monthly SSI) must now go into the bank (to a teller) with a passport and bankbook to withdraw your money. Bangkok bank has nothing to do with this new rule, it is coming from uncle Sam in the good ole USA.

Yep... talk about a rug pull! Sort of like seeing the beautiful young woman sitting out front of a massage parlor as you walk by asking you if you want a "massad?" You say okay! Then she escorts you back to the room and tells you to undress as she leaves and closes the curtain... then the fat, ugly old woman comes into your room for your special massage. Bait and switch tactics are bad for business in the long term but some never learn from their mistakes and just keep on truckin down that road.

That seems to sum it up pretty well. My cannabis days are long behind me but I did more than my share in my teens.

Correct, I just heard that ALL imported goods (at any price) are now subject to VAT tax. Gone are the days of VAT free ordering of items under 1500 baht from China (or any other country) on Shopee and Lazada. Everything is now subject to VAT tax regardless of price and I smell a possible increase in the VAT percentage coming soon. What ever happened to "Spring it on them slowly, not all at once" so that they don't get their feathers all ruffled?

Here there seems to be no such thing as "damage control" in order to prevent the inevitable losing face later.

Thanks for the reply Jim. I reviewed the tax treaty a while back but need to revisit it again to fully grasp it. As I understand, my IRA is taxable in the US as that money was earned while living and working in the US during my career and the Federal taxes due on that money are "delayed" until I take distributions from that IRA. I don't see how Thailand has primary rights to taxation on that IRA and I'm pretty sure uncle Sam will stake a full claim on that money even if I am residing in Thailand now. Then there's my ROTH IRA for which I have already paid the Federal and State taxes (on the principle) when I did the conversions from my Traditional IRA. The growth (or gains) from the ROTH are tax free in the US. I wonder how the Thai R.D. would look at this scenario? As there are no ROTH IRA's here in Thailand and if they chose to tax only the gains on that ROTH money (whenever I take a distribution), then there is the commingled funds consisting of of post tax principle along with the tax free (US) capital gains and proving how much of it is principle vs gains etc. If I took out the entire balance at once then it might be simple but if I only take some out every year then it could get messy. If they want to see a US tax return every year to confirm my annual "income" then this might be opening a can of worms. It sounds like a roll of the dice and I can see potential challenges ahead for my personal situation.

I don't usually listen to this guy but here he is doing a great rant on the subject and it seems that he's a bit pissed off about it too.

The problem would be that I have savings (IRA and Roth distributions from prior years) mixed in with my income and some of that account balance I have already paid the tax on in the USA. It could get ugly when it comes time to convince someone at the Thai RD that my remittances were post-tax savings (not income) when the funds are commingled in my checking accounts. In other words, me proving which money I have already paid the tax on might get complicated when applying the double tax treaty. There is also a government pension deposited each month in that account (which cannot be taxed per the treaty) along with rental income etc. It could get complicated for me.

That's the goodbye kiss for me if it comes true. Burying your head in the sand and pretending like it's never going to happen is foolish in my book. I got a ticket out of here on June 16th and I was planning to come back in a few weeks but after reading that article, I think I'll go elsewhere for at least the remainder of the year to let the smoke clear. Luckily, I don't have any wife or kids here, just a pickup truck and my two motorbikes. I always hope for the best but plan for the worst in case something like this happens. Sad. Buddha help us!

Agree 100%

Thanks for the info freeworld, I was unaware of this and it may be useful (or required) when navigating Thai taxes for US citizens (though I doubt the Thai R.D. will even know what it is or be able to understand it properly). Heck, US Citizens and even tax accountants in the USA can't fully understand the IRS rules (way too complicated and extensive) but of course, it was designed this way - all part of the plan. I hope it's not an annual requirement (i.e. we must get new one for each calendar year).

My money is on this ^^^^^

Along with the recent tax debacle, I'm also anxious to see what kind of cluster schmuck they can come up with when all the long term non-Immigrant visa rules are changed on Sept 1st of this year. It has been reported that the 17 long term visas (available now) will be reduced to just 7 and that there will be requirement changes for all long term visa holders who wish to stay in Thailand long term. Also mentioned that that there will be more scrutiny attached to the visas and extensions in order to weed out the undesirables and criminals. This could be the opportunity to they have been waiting for to raise the bar on income and bank deposit requirements for retirees and spouses of Thai citizens (on long term stay visa extensions). Nothing of this has been mentioned yet but they have been throwing subtle hints for a few years now (Big Joke has been pushing for this for some time). When it rains it pours!

This new tax mess has a fowl stench to it for me and it reminds me of a situation I was put in here several years ago when I was living here under O-A visa extensions (I suspect an equally unpleasant outcome with this new tax residence fiasco). Remember this? A mandatory health insurance clause was added to the O-A visa category which mandated Health Insurance for O-A extensions. I have health insurance in the USA which covers me here in Thailand (under Blue Cross/Blue Shield and is accepted at most or all private hospitals in Thailand). Simple solution, select and purchase a plan from one of the "approved" Thai insurance companies or if you already have insurnance, simply have the "board members" of your insurance company fill out this form and then submit it. Sounds pretty easy right? ... except that it was IMPOSSIBLE and NOBODY was able to complete the form to their satisfaction, so we were forced to either buy a Thai health insurance policy or leave Thailand and come back on a visa exempt and then start the process over to get an "O" visa (which is what I ended up doing). What is my point here and how is this related to this thread? My itemized taxes in the USA are very complicated with rental income, a pension, Traditional IRA and ROTH IRA distributions, both long and short term capital gains in my brokerage accounts, various tax write offs, depreciations (and state taxes as well) etc. My funds are currently co-mingled in my bank accounts in the USA. Exactly which and what amount of relevant documents am I going to have to show to the Thai R.D. and just how are they possibly going to figure out this mess in a fair and equitable manner with regards to the tax amount due under the USA/Thai double taxation treaty? I live in Udon Thani, so if they say that I may only deal with accountants and Thai R.D officials here in Udon Thani to sort out this mess every year then I might as well shoot myself. It could possibly be handled properly in Bangkok but I'm certain that we will be required to deal with the R.D. in our place of residence (same as we cannot go to a different Immigration Office to do our extensions of stay). This just seems like a frustrating nightmare on the horizon to me (to say the least).

And that's not the only problem, I'm a US citizen and my tax documents aren't available usually until mid to late March which gives me time to file my US tax return (usually due on April 15th but expats get an automatic 6 month extension to the filing deadline in the USA). So how is it even possible for me to file taxes in Thailand in early March (under the double tax treaty with Thailand) when I haven't even done my taxes in the USA yet and won't be anywhere near ready yet to file here in Thailand. My guess is that the Thai R.D. will require me to file here in March and pay all taxes due... then I may be allowed to later file paperwork requesting a refund for my overpaid taxes at some point in the future when I have all the required documents together to show proof of my taxes paid in the USA. This is something that I am not willing to put myself through just to live here and I have absolutely zero faith in getting the refund due on my overpaid taxes (if it came to that), nor do I have any faith in the person in charge at the R.D. understanding or enforcing the double tax treaty properly (not to mention I moved here to escape govt. bureaucracy, paperwork headaches and the like). Plus all the supporting documents they will request which must be official documents and must stamped and signed in blue ink by the appropriate official in the USA (no photo copies) etc. etc. etc. Is it really worth the hassle? Hell no, not for me.

If you use the money in the bank required for your 12 month extension (800k / 400k), or you show the required monthly income to qualify for the extension then no, you will probably not be asked how you support yourself (unless you catch the I.O. on a bad day or rub him/her the wrong way). If however, you use an agent or there is no activity (money in or out) in your passbook for the 800k/400k you may be questioned... especially if future 12 mo. extensions might be tied to or depend on filing tax documents here in Thailand (for tax residents). The noose seems to be tightening and it's getting uncomfortable now.

Yeah, good luck with that one when you go to renew your Visa extension and the I.O. asks to see your bank passbooks and asks how you are supporting yourself here in Thailand. "I just do border runs and bring in cash" probably won't be an acceptable answer. They want to see proof that you are not working here etc...