MainBerry
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9 minutes ago, placeholder said:
Here's an article in response to Senator Ron Johnson's claim of over 3000 deaths after vaccination:
The VAERS system had 4,434 reports of deaths after coronavirus vaccinations as of May 10. That represents a mortality rate of 0.0017 percent, whereas the mortality rate for people who develop covid-19 is much higher: 1.8 percent in the United States, according to a database maintained by Johns Hopkins University.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/05/12/ron-johnsons-unscientific-use-vaccine-death-data/
So even if all those reported deaths can be established as being caused by the vaccines, which is dubious, that amounts to the equivalent of 17 deaths per 100 million.
My calculator broke, how did you come to 17 deaths per 100 million if 4,434 are reported to have died? VAERS is USA based and if you use actual numbers of today, it is 5888 deaths reported by VAERS and 145 million fully vaccinated in the USA. Please recalculate.
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Just now, placeholder said:
Anybody can report an incident to the VAERS system. Patients, caregivers, relatives. Keep in mind that these reports are referred to as "adverse incidents". Not "adverse reactions".
Guide to Interpreting VAERS Data
When evaluating data from VAERS, it is important to note that for any reported event, no cause-and-effect relationship has been established. Reports of all possible associations between vaccines and adverse events (possible side effects) are filed in VAERS. Therefore, VAERS collects data on any adverse event following vaccination, be it coincidental or truly caused by a vaccine. The report of an adverse event to VAERS is not documentation that a vaccine caused the event.
Yes, we informed know that and unfortunately that's how it works in the biggest vaccination campaign ever and we are taking it like this. Still, as the data from multiple sources (which I have portrayed in this thread) correlate, it seems to be showing a trend towards what is actually happening.
Basically we take the word of Pharma companies right now.
It's not the same, I know but we have data of what happened in the past with those companies:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_pharmaceutical_settlements
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1 minute ago, GroveHillWanderer said:Adverse event reporting systems in the US, UK, Australia etc, all accept reports from anybody, about events that occur after a person has received a vaccine. They in no way establish that the vaccine caused the event in question.
Just to give one example, I was looking at the UK yellow card reporting system the other day and one of the events reported (and therefore included in the statistics) was the "death of a close relative" of the vaccinated person.
Ok, I get that, however, if I compare the death rates (listed as regards to the vaccine and not the stereotype "died in a car wrash while having covid" ????) in multiple countries, they all are about the same rate.
- VAERS USA (40 deaths per 1 million vaccinated)
- Yellow Card UK (43 deaths per 1 million vaccinated)
- Austrian CDC (24 deaths per 1 million vaccinated)
- German CDC (30-50 deaths (different reports) per 1 million vaccinated)
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43 minutes ago, talahtnut said:
One of the adverse effects of the quackcine is death. MHRA UK gov. data.
Yellow card adverse effects reporting, over 1000 deaths.
Covid/Flu does not kill healthy people.
Wow, I thought you were joking... nearly 300.000 reported side effects. Wow, I mean, seriously, by all means, get the vaccine if you want, but for me, member of age group of 0-50, I will kindly refuse.
UK has 1295 deaths related to the vaccine and 30 million fully vaccinated. That's 43 deaths per 1 million.
"The MHRA has received 406 UK reports of suspected ADRs to the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine in which the patient died shortly after vaccination, 863 reports for the COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca, 4 for the COVID-19 Vaccine Moderna and 22 where the brand of vaccine was unspecified."
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Austrian CDC reports 119 confirmed deaths related to vaccine and 4,9 million vaccinated. So, it's a bit less (24 deaths at 1 million vaccinated) than reported at VAERS. Looking at their older statistics, it is less now (probably due to the reason that more people have their first shot and still waiting for the second).
Source Austrian CDC (however, it is in German): https://www.basg.gv.at/fileadmin/redakteure/05_KonsumentInnen/Impfstoffe/Bericht_BASG_Nebenwirkungsmeldungen_27.12.2020-28.05.2021.pdf
What's more interesting is the side effects released by this federal agency, the younger (thus, healthier) the more side effects.
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4 minutes ago, John Drake said:
Still missing the "you will get kidney stones" proof. But yeah, I get what you are saying. I thought you actually mean vitamin D which is currently demonized in all media.
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8 minutes ago, John Drake said:
You will get kidney stones.
Proof? Just post CNN website already. ????
Proof looks like this:
"Monthly high-dose vitamin D supplementation does not increase kidney stone risk or serum calcium: results from a randomized controlled trial "
Source: https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/109/6/1578/5475743
"Kidney stones are a common and painful condition. Longitudinal prospective studies on the association between intake of vitamin D and risk of incident kidney stones are lacking."
Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5241241/
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1 minute ago, richard_smith237 said:
I don’t quite understand your point here.
My point has been IF we do not vaccinate the virus can continued to spread and will evolve, it could evolve into a variant we are unable to vaccinate against.
I understand that Covid-19 is of less risk to those who are healthy and under 50 years - at the moment.
However, the virus has shown how when it is permitted ‘free roam’ in countries that weak lockdown it change. We have various different variants, some more dangerous than others.
The Delta variant highlights how the dangers of the antigenic drift of the virus can surpass the effectiveness of the vaccines. Allegedly ’some’ of the vaccines are less effective against Delta Variant B.1.167.2.
This is where I recognise the greatest area of concern. This ‘anti-covid-vaccination’ movement ignores the reality that this virus has already proven it can evolve into more dangerous variants.
Those presenting ‘anti-covid-vaccination’ only look at the vaccination risk verses the direct risk of the current known Covid-19 variants on individuals under 50.
When addressing the vaccination question from this single facet, I agree, the virus could present greater risk to a healthy young individual than the virus.
However, the approach to mitigate SARS-CoV-2 cannot be successful if the Virus is permitted to continually spread and evolve.
If the majority of people below 50 do not take the vaccines because ’some experts’ have indicated the vaccine vs virus risk is too high then the virus will continue to spread through communities, the virus will (can) continue to evolve as it already proven it has, the virus will (can) continue to evolve at a rate faster than virologists can keep up with.
If the virus evolves at rates faster than virologists can keep up the vaccines will be less effective for those in vulnerable groups with the consequences and excess deaths we have seen already in 2020.
If the virus is not controlled and is allowed to evolve, it can evolve into something which impacts those who are younger than 50 and healthy.
In summary, if the virus is not controlled it can turn into something more severe. Equally so, it can evolve into something harmless which it has in some countries. But, the Delta variant highlights the additional risks we face if we are slow to vaccinate the vast proportion of society.
Vaccinations are as much about slowing down the virus as they are about protecting individuals.
The behavior of discriminating everybody who look at statistics and scientifically views as "anti vaxxers" is so wrong on many levels. No, the recorded official statistics about the survival rate of the age group 0-50 doesn't change because you call somebody "anti vaxxer". No, you cannot silence those who wish to inform them based on statistics and reality. So, I do not feel personally attacked by this, but still respond to it by saying that I would advocate the gene therapy for the 60+ and serious ill but especially at the age group of 0-20, in my opinion, it is irresponsible and I said it before, borderline criminal.
Still, I wonder where the claim evolved that the vaccine are meant to stop the spread? So, here I have the utmost authority on this matter, the American CDC with the following statement:
"COVID-19 vaccines teach our immune systems how to recognize and fight the virus that causes COVID-19. "
Source: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/facts.html
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2 minutes ago, Neeranam said:
Thanks. I run 25 km a week, 55, take vitamin C and D and Invermectin. SHould be covered for now,
Yes, the demonized human immune system is the first responder to all known flus and boosting it should be the first thing to do. Since you mention Invermectin, you should research the other "banned by the media" solutions. Recently there came out another study in regards to this.
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1 minute ago, Neeranam said:
But it is still OK for over 60's?
Are you asking me personally? Well looking at the statistics of countries like Germany, I would say the risk for people over 60 to die of or with Covid is much higher than to die of the vaccine (any vaccine for that matter). So, I would say, if you are 60+ and have any known illnesses, get the experimental gene therapy which is made to lessen the effects of Covid (nothing else) so that your chances of survival is higher. On the other hand, if you have perfect health, get regular checkups, run 2 miles per day, you might be not the best candidate for the vaccine.
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9 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:
As I wrote...
Yeah, I acknowledge that I didn't know how the reporting of VAERS functions as I thought it's the same as in Germany and Austria where doctors and panels decide the reporting and the numbers correlate with VEAERS but you make claims about that an American being a director in Norway, that everybody should be vaccinated regardless the statitstics and that the vaccine stops the spread. Claims over claims and no proofs at all.
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1 minute ago, richard_smith237 said:
The Director of the CDC is Rochelle Walensky.
The gentleman you are referring to is the director of one of the departments a the Norwegian Institute of Public Health official.
He is stating that vaccinations are more dangerous than Covid-19.
And you can post more links... and I can post more links of opinions of other experts which contradict him.
Vaccines are important for ALL not to protect the individual, but to slow down the SARS-CoV-2 virus to limit the risk or speed of antigenic drift into something virologists are unable to keep up with of vaccinate against.
Public health officials are correct - Covid-19 presents less risk for healthy people under 50, for now at least.
The argument is that when all those at risk are vaccinated we can ‘get on with our lives’, we can live alongside Covid-19 as we live alongside influenza and the common cold viruses.
What these arguments fail to recognise is the rate of antigenic drift presented by the SARS-CoV-2 virus.
IF SARS-CoV-2 is allowed to be transmitted because people are either not at risk or are vaccine protected, then those who have not been vaccinated permit the continued spread of SARS-CoV-2 such that the virus can mutate into other variants at a rate virologists cannot keep up with, thus placing those in ‘vulnerable groups’ back at risk
Also overlooked by these ‘experts’ is the potential for the virus to evolve into something that does impact those in <50 age bracket who are healthy.
Vaccines are not just about protecting those at risk. The are about slowing down the virus.
The Norwegian CDC, the Division of Infection Control and Environmental Health director is Geir Bukholm. I don't know why an American should be the director in Norway Huh, what is going on? Are you making now stuff up on the go? Please stop it.
Regardless how many times "long covid" is portrayed, it will still count as covid death if death occurs. Also, we certainly know that "long flu" is a thing. What we certailnly don't know yet, is "long vaccine" and it's outcomes.\
The argument is, that "we are all in this together" but it is very emotional and not scientific. Also, I would be interested in proofs that with the vaccine you don't get covid anymore. Current census says the opposite, and vaccinated people are still able to spread the virus.
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2 minutes ago, Salerno said:
"Anyone can submit a report to VAERS — healthcare professionals, vaccine manufacturers, and the general public. VAERS welcomes all reports, regardless of seriousness, and regardless of how likely the vaccine may have been to have caused the adverse event."
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/ensuringsafety/monitoring/vaers/index.html
I didnt know that. Well, the statistics for Germany and Austria show the same 40 deaths for 1 million, so they seem to be united in this aspect.
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10 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:
This needs addressing separately.
Open VAERS - Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System.
Bob dies of a heart attack - Nothing reported to VAERS
Bob has a vaccine and dies of the same heart attack that was going to kill him anyway - Death reported to VAERS
My point here is that no one reports ‘pre-vaccine’ deaths to VAERS, but post vaccines deaths will be reported VAERS whether they are vaccine related or not.
As such the the graph shown is nothing more than a curve measuring the coincidental timing of some deaths meanwhile there is no basis of comparison - the presentation of data in this manner is naive and highly misleading....
.... or rather, its highly misleading for those too stupid to identify the confirmation bias such data presents.
This date is simply ‘deaths after a vaccine’... the curve could be exactly the same if ‘deaths after a beer’ were to be plotted.
IF vaccine risk is to be truly evaluated on a mass level there needs be a far better method of analysis than this dumbed down rubbish.
It is actually doctors and doctor panels at hospital deciding to put a death on VAERS, it is not a random guy working as a cashier just thinking "oh this could be something". They follow procedures to actually identify it. Also, yes, "pre vaccine" deaths are getting reported, just not to VAERS because VAERS is a vaccine related reporting system. VAERS correlates with numbers from Germany and Austria (40 per 1 million) so, at least in this regards those countries are united.
To give you another example based on your examples:
Bob dies of a blood clot in brain - doctor decides to not report anything to VAERS because he reads the vaccines manual and it says "very very rare and unlikely" and "oh, its already 3 weeks ago since the patient got the vaccine".
Bob dies of a blood clot in brain - doctor checks vaccinated patient for covid antibodies and the test is positive. Patient died of covid. Nothing reported to VAERS.
For the other part you are correct, more deaths because more vaccinated people than the years before.
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Just now, richard_smith237 said:
Who is this Norwegian CDC director ???? If you want to be credible don’t make stuff up !
Please read entire page 5 before you get so emotional about it. I have posted multiple sources and easily verifiable statements.
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5 minutes ago, rickudon said:
40 per million is a much higher reported rate than other countries. It may be the gross total of people who die after vaccination, before cause of death is attributed. For senior citizens, your daily risk of death is about 1 in 10,000 - so you would expect about 100 people a day to die out of one million senior citizens, every day.
If you accept the death rates normally given for Astra-Zeneca vaccine (say 2 per million), vaccinating the entire Norwegian population would cause about 11 deaths. Every day, about one Norwegian dies of Covid-19, you would get a better outcome in under a month if all Norwegians were vaccinated. Even at 40 per million, you would be better off in 7 months.
40 per 1 million is a calculation based on f. ex. the USA system VAERS. They report around 6000 deaths so far for 150 million vaccinated. 150 million / 6000 = 40 per 1 million. No doubt my opinion on this is that it is extremely under reported.
Source: https://www.openvaers.com/covid-data/mortality
Yes, senior citizens die of and with covid. A lot. But the age group 0-50 are absolutely not (based on the statistic I posted above). What you are saying there would lead to a statistically better outcome in total numbers but in the progress people are getting killed by the vaccine which would be not dying of covid. This trade off seems to be very cruel. I am more for a scientific approach: Vaccinate the elders and the people with serious medical ilnesses, forbid the vacvinnation of the age group 0-18 and everybody else, up to them.
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2 minutes ago, Nojohndoe said:
I am left wondering what the death toll in Norway would be/have been if no vaccinations were given at all? Nor do the statistics provide any consideration of the long term damage done as a result of serious symptomatic covid infection which have been reported to be around 30% and have led to some premature deaths due to such organ damage post infection recovery.
I cannot answer your first question but since the director of the CDC, Geir Bukholm has multiple doctorates in medicine and microbiology and lectures as a professor at an Norwegian University, I would trust his statement more than yours or mine.
The "long covid" horror stories are also counted as covid deaths, if they end in death. So, it's not "30%" higher. But, if you read about the long term effects of the flu, I mean the real thing, not just symptoms, you will notice that "long flu" has been always been a thing.
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23 minutes ago, mommysboy said:
When you have mass inoculation deaths will occur that may be coincidental, or be proximal, or rarely a direct result of the vaccine. If you are vaccinating hundreds of thousands of people daily it will happen daily. But nobody reports that the vast majority are ok.
Of course it is shocking when someone who is seemingly healthy dies suddenly, but it often proves misleading to describe them as young, fit, and healthy. Nearly always the victim has an underlying undetected health condition. The vaccine is merely coincidental, or at worse incidental but not the prime mover.
Reported sudden deaths with the AZ vaccine are actually no higher than any other vaccine (lower than some in fact), and in line with the general background population, ie, people just naturally dying as they do every day unfortunately. In fact in the UK all death mortality was actually lower when studied.
There is a specific syndrome which can be fatal known as VITT, which is rare thankfully. It occurs 5-28 days after inoculation, and has specific characteristics. It is associated with the vector vaccines, such as AZ and J and J.
The big danger is that daily reporting of the single deaths that will happen daily as a mere matter of nature creates undue vaccine hesitancy. The news becomes exaggerated, distorted, and amplified. It really is terrible reporting imo. It stops ordinary people who need have no fear whatsoever from getting vaccinated.
You have some interesting points, however there are two sides of the story.
If you look at the statistics, you will notice that a certain age group is more at risk of dying than the other one. This gets under reported ("we are all in this together"). To sum it up, up to the age of 50 dying of covid is basically non existent and definitely statistically insignificant.
What the statistic not shows is , if and how many underlying conditions (overweight, diabetes, cancer, smoking, suppressed immune system, etc.) the people who died had. The same way you stated that we cannot say if people die because of their "non diagnosed underlying condition" or the vaccine. However, since doctors are told side effects are very very rare and actually "never happen", a blood clot in the brain or a heart stopping (f. ex. a healthy soccer player) can easily misdiagnosed as not related to the vaccine and this is what we currently see happening! A chronic under reporting of side effects. On the other hand, it is easy to diagnose "died of Covid" because, well, the consensus is, that Covid kills and if you die while having Covid, it is easily "because of" and not "contributing" or "together with X other serious illnesses".
The reality led the Norwegian director of CDC to the following statement:
40 people currently die per 1 million vaccinated (reported by VAERS and Germany and Austria, statistics can be provided if you are unable to get to this figure by yourself). This means that I would agree with the Norwegian CDC director by saying that vaccines may kill more people than Covid, mainly however if you are in a certain age group. Example: Imagine if we start vaccinated children and youths.
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Science and reality is backed by statistics and not emotions, sorry guys.
Source:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1105512/coronavirus-covid-19-deaths-by-gender-germany/
Based on those statistics, in a sane world child protection service would get involved if you'd gave your child an experimental gene therapy.
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2 hours ago, placeholder said:
Presumably, knowing deep down would be in our guts. In our brains, not so much.
Some people aren't able to read stats and facts about modern censorship and fall back to emotional banter.
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3 hours ago, wadman said:
If you died (from a heart attack) shortly after being vaccinated, then there is a probability that the vaccine caused it yes (caused it, as in triggered it). The shorter the time between vaccination and death/complications, the higher the probability.
If it happens 5 minutes after, the vaccine surely must be the prime suspect.
If it happens 20 days later, the probability goes way down.
Actually the opposite. The gene therapy (vaccine) doesn't work that fast and the body reaction (ie. blood clots forming) take a while.
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Currently around 40 people die per 1 million vaccinated. Which gets reported by VAERS and some EU countries (f. ex. Austria and Germany). It might be much higher since if you die because of a blood clot in the brain, you die of a blood clot in the brain and not the vaccine and we all know deep down how the reporting is censored. However, considering 40 deaths vs 1 million vaccinated it is pretty good. The cold hard truth will hit us once we start vaccinate children who don't die of covid.
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vs. science.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/german-panel-gives-limited-approval-covid-19-shot-adolescents-2021-06-10/
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Another Thai woman dies after receiving AstraZeneca COVID-19 jab
in Thailand News
Posted
And we have also the other side of the story, just to get all the facts and not only one sided:
"Since there are few people who die from COVID-19 in Norway, the risk of dying after vaccination with the AstraZeneca vaccine would be higher than the risk of dying from the disease, particularly for younger people,"
Source: https://www.fhi.no/en/news/2021/astrazeneca-vaccine-removed-from-coronavirus-immunisation-programme-in-norw/