ThLT

In all cases where it's zero-sum, yes. The difference between crypto and buying stock is that crypto creates no real-world value (the other portion of the discussion which you don't seem to understand). When you buy stock of a company, that helps the company. This allows leverage and increased capital for the company, to expand and create/deliver products and services to a large amount of customers. No one who buys Bitcoin or cryptocurrencies intends to use them as a currency. Ironically. With all of the hype, they are too valuable as a speculative asset to profit from. The intention is to buy a coin/portion coin, wait, and then sell it at a profit. Rinse and repeat. In large part, that's all crypto is at the moment.

Here it is again, @Yellowtail: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/zero-sum

Apologies for the typo. I've been typing fast... Obviously there are thousands who have sold crypto at a loss. Are you implying that because I don't have access to their accounts that I can't know for sure that people who lost money selling their crypto exist? ???? Do you also think I also can't know that some people have lost money selling traditional stocks at a loss? So? If you add a third, or fourth of fifth person, it doesn't change that the profits solely come from those who sell at a loss. Again, discussing pointless details, and yet another false whataboutism. Did you read the dictionary definition of "zero-sum"? That was fairly simple.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/zero-sum

Lol. The only thing that is clear is that you're confused about every straw men point you mention above, including your straw man conclusion. Zero-sum. It's not difficult to understand. The money/profit that you earn when selling crypto comes from other people who sold crypto at a lost. What you earn making crypto, comes from another's pockets. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/zero-sum

Saying crypto is a speculative asset and being a speculative bubble is not anti-crypto. It's just fact. And I don't think anyone, whether I, @lkn and others in this thread, is against blockchain or cryptocurrency in and of itself. I actually think cryptocurrency will eventually replace fiat money. Ethereum has lots of potential beyond a simple currency. However, I don't think it will be Dogecoin or Tether. Or even Bitcoin, with how ridiculously inefficient it is. In the next 10 years, 99% of cryptocurrencies will be wiped out. And that very 99% at the moment is a speculative bubble—of value-less digital currencies, and nothing else. Exactly like the thousands of Internet companies that were wiped out during the .com bubble. Yes, Google, Apple, Amazon etc. survived, but almost all perished. I would say that the "narrative so deep" that you speak of, in large part, is precisely what the crypto community is all about. Eighteen, nineteen-year-olds and twenty-something-years-olds who are basically financially illiterate, and who just gather together in a circlejerk online to cheer each other up about HODLling. And influencers everywhere, advertising this or that brand new crypto coin, which sometimes "goes to the moon" but then crashes, or was simply a "pump and dump" scam. This in large part being the crypto community. But delusional crypto enthusiasts don't want to admit these things. It's FUD. ???? For them, crypto is almost perfect. Any criticism about crypto is being anti-crypto and FUD.

Again, I didn't make this claim. And again, no one said or is saying that. To claim everyone who has bought crypto has lost money would be completely ridiculous. Clearly, some people have made money with crypto. Some lots. What the central point of the exchange with you, Ikn and I, is that you don't understand what a zero-sum is. That every single dollar earned at a profit buying/selling crypto, comes from someone who has lost those dollars buying/selling crypto at a loss.

No one is saying this. ???? It's just an extra positive factoid about Apple stock. Crypto doesn't create value, nor does it pay dividends. Lol. My definition is the same as your source. It's not because you don't understand the definition that the definition doesn't exist. ???? Obviously, value is perceived, but perceived value—that someone believes something is valuable—doesn't mean that something is valuable. But again, you're just diverting the discussion to insignifiant details, and completely ignoring the central points. Lol. You can't even follow the discussion itself. You're confusing me for someone else. Ikn brought up Amway and the Brooklyn Bridge. ???? If you get mixed up even for this, it's no surprise you're getting other things mixed up. ????

At this point, 3/4 of what Yellowtail posts is whataboutisms. It's becoming a bit ridiculous and tedious. What about Apple, what about Tesla, what about miners, what about people making money selling things about cypto, what about people also scamming people, what about casinos, what about... Yet, always avoiding the central points of the discussion. And when one whataboutism is addressed, moves on to a new whataboutism.

Value, and perceived value are two different things. Perceived value is what speculation is. Amway is a multi-level marketing company. Are you really using that to support your argument? ????

Yes, exactly, if someone made money selling a crypto coin, the money gained, like you said, comes from speculators... who lost money. That is where profit from another person comes from (if not, where?!). Yes, but the difference is that Apple is an actual existing company, that offers value and products to its consumers. Although small, it also pays dividends to its shareholders. And the significant expansion and the providing of value to billions of customers over the years, of that existing company, has resulted in the stock price reflecting that expansion. Sure, a certain amount could be speculation, but the rest isn't... and the speculation is based on expectations of Apple releasing new and more innovative products, so the speculation is actually based on something.

You misleadingly (although unintentional) screenshoted a quote further in the text. Notice the "From a financial perspective"? Here is your same source describing value creation (the definition/beginning of the text, not further in the text): https://www.referenceforbusiness.com/management/Tr-Z/Value-Creation.html By the way... sill waiting for a response from this post regarding what you have been saying from the start of the exchange.

Okay then. So if you earn money from selling a crypto coin, and as you say, that "someone else has lost money is not true"—then where does that money from the profit come from? It appeared out of thin air? Please describe where that extra money came from.

Then what are you saying?

We are only 3 people trying to explain 1 person (you) about basic finance principles. ???? Crypto doesn't create value—and it is zero-sum (negative-sum, rather). And what someone has won, someone has lost or will lose. That's where the extra money and profits come from (if not, where?!). That you don't understand this doesn't make it false. Considering you are 1 out of 4 people who doesn't understand, or rather probably 1 out of the 20+ people in the thread who do understand basic finances. It just means you don't understand.

Those two sentences are the same exact same point. ???? Has lost/will lose—the mechanism of how crypto works is still the same. A zero-sum game. "Everything won in crypto, someone else has lost or will lose."

You misleadingly posted a 1 day graph of a stock, to show that it was doing well. But the stock crashed -20% in the last 72 hours. ????

Yes, and crypto (almost every single coin) has crashed 10-20% in the last 24 hours.

Might want to show a fuller graph there (your 1d graph is seriously misleading):

I explained it to you, and so did Ikn. This is basic finance. Tell me: if I buy $1000 worth of XEM coin (a real coin that eventually died and is now worth nothing) off of someone who paid $400. And then the XEM coin crashes (like it did). And you can't sell the XEM coin you paid $1000 for. From where did the $600 profit the first guy made come from? Where did that fiat money come from? Out of thin air? It came from your pockets. "Every profit obtained from buying/selling crypto, someone else lost" is correct. Crypto is zero-sum—but with electricity and hardware costs calculated in, it is negative-sum.

I did explain "creating value" to you. You even replied. So did Ikn. And it's not my definition, it's basic finance. "Making money" is not "creating value." Charles Ponzi made a lot of money, he didn't create value. You are conflating the act of buying/selling crypto... and what you do with the fiat money from selling crypto. It's two different events. A scam artist can create value by donating millions in stolen money to charity. But how he got those millions did not create value. Rather the opposite.

That's how existing and crashed cryptocurrencies generate value? ????

Exactly. The burden of proof is on @Yellowtail. What value do cryptocurrencies generate? Both: - The ones that still exist? - And the ones that crashed and are now worth nothing?

It's about creating new value. Not converting value. More value than what you started with. With the raw materials for building a house, and a newly built house, clearly the brand new house consists of more value. ???? Sure, but where does the extra money come from? From selling a speculative asset. The surplus money is due to speculation.

It's an example. I thought by using something as simple as building houses you'd understand.